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Gimm
08-10-2004, 10:31 AM
Pass ball on a pitch down the middle of the plate in Detroit, leading to a loss. Catcher's interference on Hefner that set up that huge inning and led to another loss. Awful tag on the play at home, which also contributed to said loss. Just a couple of recent examples.



4 for his last 33 with no extra-base hits and 1 walk. Retire his useless ass or at least put him on DL so he could continue his pitch-calling.

soxtalker
08-10-2004, 10:37 AM
There seems to be near-universal agreement on this board that this will be Sandy's last year as catcher. However, I noticed an interview with Roberto after he rejoined the Sox in which he said that he'd like to stay here, so that he and Sandy could retire together. Made me wonder if Sandy and the Sox see things the same way. It seems clear that they want him to stay with the organization, so I assume that they've discussed such things. But is it possible that they think he can catch one more year?

Tekijawa
08-10-2004, 10:38 AM
There seems to be near-universal agreement on this board that this will be Sandy's last year as catcher. However, I noticed an interview with Roberto after he rejoined the Sox in which he said that he'd like to stay here, so that he and Sandy could retire together. Made me wonder if Sandy and the Sox see things the same way. It seems clear that they want him to stay with the organization, so I assume that they've discussed such things. But is it possible that they think he can catch one more year?
Last I checked they force hall of fame Catchers out on the southside, and then completely alienate them...

duke of dorwood
08-10-2004, 10:50 AM
And keep non-HOF catchers

JDP
08-10-2004, 11:11 AM
There seems to be near-universal agreement on this board that this will be Sandy's last year as catcher. However, I noticed an interview with Roberto after he rejoined the Sox in which he said that he'd like to stay here, so that he and Sandy could retire together. Made me wonder if Sandy and the Sox see things the same way. It seems clear that they want him to stay with the organization, so I assume that they've discussed such things. But is it possible that they think he can catch one more year?
Though sh*t Robbie -- you are the one that left in the '03 offseason. You and your brother could have been playing side by side for the entire '04 season and then retired together and gone out to pasture.

Gimm
08-10-2004, 11:41 AM
Look, it's simple enough: Sandy is killing his team when he plays, especially in the last month.


This team is 6 games back with only 54 to go. The margin for error is as SLIM as they come if Sox are to get back into this thing. That means no more Schoeneweis or Diaz starting. No more Jackson relieving. No more Politte pitching to tough LH. No more Borchard, Sandy and Timo in the line-up.

mcfish
08-10-2004, 12:01 PM
Look, it's simple enough: Sandy is killing his team when he plays, especially in the last month.


This team is 6 games back with only 54 to go. The margin for error is as SLIM as they come if Sox are to get back into this thing. That means no more Schoeneweis or Diaz starting. No more Jackson relieving. No more Politte pitching to tough LH. No more Borchard, Sandy and Timo in the line-up.It's Sandy? I thought it was the whole team that kills itself. He plays once or twice a week - I'm sure he accounts for the 14-21 record that the Sox have since the beginning of July. He's a backup catcher! He's not causing the team to do any worse than it is on it's own. The Sox were out of this thing a while ago. They were 6 games back with 62 to play, now it's 6 back with 54 to play. Notice the number that's not changing? To gain a game a week, you have to win games. This team can't do that, with or without Sandy Alomar, Jr.

Gimm
08-10-2004, 12:10 PM
It's Sandy? I thought it was the whole team that kills itself. He plays once or twice a week - I'm sure he accounts for the 14-21 record that the Sox have since the beginning of July. He's a backup catcher!, Jr.Why do people insist on using this crap logic?

Why is it that when a player is terrible all-around, his performance is excused because other players are almost as terrible?

Alomar has been beyond worthless (as in, worst position player in baseball) in the last 5 weeks, and unlike guys like Uribe and Valentin who also had very bad July, Sandy was bad BEFORE July and there is NO chance he could be anything BUT bad from now until the end of the season.....whereas Valentin and Uribe can go on an unbelivable streak at ANY moment and help carry the team.

We also have Burke (smoking LHP and playing good D.) and Davis (smoking RHP with us) - there is NO reason why Sandy "300 OPS and terrible defense in July" Alomar should be starting AT ALL.

Same goes for Timo, Borchard, Crede, Jackson, Schoeneweiss (rotation) and Diaz (rotation).....but since this thread is about Sandy, I wanted to discuss HIM. There have been countless Harris/Valentin/Uribe is a bum threads - what makes Sandy exempt? His pitch-calling? Let him do it from the bench, then.

Gimm
08-10-2004, 12:21 PM
Why is it that when a player is terrible all-around, his performance is excused because other players are almost as terrible?
I should add that considering the team lost so many 1-run and 2-run games lately, just one "extra" terrible player in the line-up can literally be the difference between winning and losing.

mcfish
08-10-2004, 12:26 PM
Why do people insist on using this crap logic?

Why is it that when a player is terrible all-around, his performance is excused because other players are almost as terrible?

Alomar has been beyond worthless (as in, worst position player in baseball) in the last 5 weeks, and unlike guys like Uribe and Valentin who also had very bad July, Sandy was bad BEFORE July and there is NO chance he could be anything BUT bad from now until the end of the season.....whereas Valentin and Uribe can go on an unbelivable streak at ANY moment and help carry the team.

We also have Burke (smoking LHP and playing good D.) and Davis (smoking RHP with us) - there is NO reason why Sandy "300 OPS and terrible defense in July" Alomar should be starting AT ALL.

Same goes for Timo, Borchard, Crede, Jackson, Schoeneweiss (rotation) and Diaz (rotation).....but since this thread is about Sandy, I wanted to discuss HIM. There have been countless Harris/Valentin/Uribe is a bum threads - what makes Sandy exempt? His pitch-calling? Let him do it from the bench, then.Because I don't want to see a team that had no shot at winning anything anyway do the exact same thing to Sandy Alomar, Jr. that it did to Carlton Fisk. Especially since by all accounts Sandy plans to be with the organization for a while as a coach/manager. Because I look at this team and I see players who play every day who are doing far worse than Sandy - Jose V. comes immediately to mind. So does Crede. Because he's a backup catcher and I would like to see them concentrate on seeing what Ben Davis can do for the rest of the year instead of playing a 32 year old career minor leaguer. Because I don't want to blame a backup catcher for the entire team's horrible play. HE's HAD 30 AB's in all of July and August. Do you really think that those AB's are the ones that killed the team?

LongLiveFisk
08-10-2004, 12:26 PM
Last I checked they force hall of fame Catchers out on the southside, and then completely alienate them...
Actually, they fly them out to Cleveland and then make them find their own way home.

mcfish
08-10-2004, 12:27 PM
I should add that considering the team lost so many 1-run and 2-run games lately, just one "extra" terrible player in the line-up can literally be the difference between winning and losing.Then go get a good shortstop and stop worrying about a guy whose had 30 AB's in the last month and a half.

Lip Man 1
08-10-2004, 12:31 PM
Considering the Sox are done isn't this a moot point anyway?

I suggest we start having discussions on how to rebuild this club as Ozzie is going to demand this off season, within the self imposed financial limitations from ownership.

Lip

Wealz
08-10-2004, 12:43 PM
Because I don't want to see a team that had no shot at winning anything anyway do the exact same thing to Sandy Alomar, Jr. that it did to Carlton Fisk. Especially since by all accounts Sandy plans to be with the organization for a while as a coach/manager. Because I look at this team and I see players who play every day who are doing far worse than Sandy - Jose V. comes immediately to mind. So does Crede. Because he's a backup catcher and I would like to see them concentrate on seeing what Ben Davis can do for the rest of the year instead of playing a 32 year old career minor leaguer. Because I don't want to blame a backup catcher for the entire team's horrible play. HE's HAD 30 AB's in all of July and August. Do you really think that those AB's are the ones that killed the team?
Please don't mention Alomar and Fisk in the same sentence again. Old, bad players get released all the time. To keep them because they're buddies with the GM or manager is a disservice to the everyone else on the roster.

Gimm
08-10-2004, 12:44 PM
Because I don't want to see a team that had no shot at winning anything anyway do the exact same thing to Sandy Alomar, Jr. that it did to Carlton Fisk.?
What you don't realize is that the REASON why this team "has no shot at winning" (don't agree but time is definately running out) is because they have Sandy Alomar....and Felix Diaz.....and Mike Jackson....and Neal Cotts....and Joe Borchard...and Timo Perez...and Ross Gload....and Scott Schoeneweis...and, ah why am I even repeating this? You didn't get the point I brought up the first time and you won't now.

And shame on you for bringing Fisk into this.

Gimm
08-10-2004, 12:48 PM
Considering the Sox are done isn't this a moot point anyway?

Lip
Only if you're a hopeless pessimist who can't see this that this team is no more than 2 minor offensive upgrades away from making the ALC race reaaaally interesting.

Wealz
08-10-2004, 12:49 PM
Considering the Sox are done isn't this a moot point anyway?

I suggest we start having discussions on how to rebuild this club as Ozzie is going to demand this off season, within the self imposed financial limitations from ownership.

Lip
Is it a moot point or is it symptomatic of why they don't win? They don't address their problems ruthlessly enough. Alomar might be a nice guy, but somebody should do their job and tell him he is no longer of use to this organization as a player.

If he's upset by that and therefore wouldn't accept a coaching job in the organization, oh well.

Lip Man 1
08-10-2004, 12:59 PM
Gimm says: "Only if you're a hopeless pessimist who can't see this that this team is no more than 2 minor offensive upgrades away from making the ALC race reaaaally interesting."

as opposed to being 'delusional' by thinking that two 'minor' moves are going to suddenly propell the Sox past two teams.

I admire your tenacity but I question your intelligence on this matter.

Lip

mcfish
08-10-2004, 12:59 PM
Please don't mention Alomar and Fisk in the same sentence again. Old, bad players get released all the time. To keep them because they're buddies with the GM or manager is a disservice to the everyone else on the roster.What you don't realize is that the REASON why this team "has no shot at winning" (don't agree but time is definately running out) is because they have Sandy Alomar....and Felix Diaz.....and Mike Jackson....and Neal Cotts....and Joe Borchard...and Timo Perez...and Ross Gload....and Scott Schoeneweis...and, ah why am I even repeating this? You didn't get the point I brought up the first time and you won't now.

And shame on you for bringing Fisk into this.
A) Ok, get rid of MJ and SS and Diaz and Cotts and LTP and Perez and Gload then. Why release a man who had a long and great career and who seems to like the organization enough to help them out for years to come as a coach?
B) I will mention Alomar and Fisk together as often as I want as long as they are in comparable situations. The White Sox released Fisk in the worst possible way and releasing Alomar in any way would remind me of the exact same episode. Yes, I think Fisk was the better catcher. But I wasn't comparing players, now was I? I was comparing situations, and they are in the same situation.
C) Alomar barely plays and Davis should be given as much PT as he can take for the rest of the year anyway to see if he is good enough to stay this team's starting catcher. A backup catcher is not the reason for the Sox demise. He had 25 AB's in July and 5 so far in August. 30 AB's could not have and did not cause the demise of the White Sox.
D) Alomar is not useless to the team as he calls pitches. Sandy has a better average than Everett, Crede, Valentin, Borchard, and Robbie Alomar for the Sox, and he's only 2 points below Timo. All of these players play far more often than Sandy. Blame them.

Wealz
08-10-2004, 01:22 PM
A) Ok, get rid of MJ and SS and Diaz and Cotts and LTP and Perez and Gload then. Why release a man who had a long and great career and who seems to like the organization enough to help them out for years to come as a coach?
B) I will mention Alomar and Fisk together as often as I want as long as they are in comparable situations. The White Sox released Fisk in the worst possible way and releasing Alomar in any way would remind me of the exact same episode. Yes, I think Fisk was the better catcher. But I wasn't comparing players, now was I? I was comparing situations, and they are in the same situation.
C) Alomar barely plays and Davis should be given as much PT as he can take for the rest of the year anyway to see if he is good enough to stay this team's starting catcher. A backup catcher is not the reason for the Sox demise. He had 25 AB's in July and 5 so far in August. 30 AB's could not have and did not cause the demise of the White Sox.
D) Alomar is not useless to the team as he calls pitches. Sandy has a better average than Everett, Crede, Valentin, Borchard, and Robbie Alomar for the Sox, and he's only 2 points below Timo. All of these players play far more often than Sandy. Blame them.
Funny stuff. Alomar has to go.

Gimm
08-10-2004, 01:22 PM
A) Ok, get rid of MJ and SS and Diaz and Cotts and LTP and Perez and Gload then. Why release a man who had a long and great career and who seems to like the organization enough to help them out for years to come as a coach?
.Release him??? No, you put him on DL with a "knee problem" to save face. He can still call pitches from the dugout and tutor and all that good stuff.

You just can't trot a 300 OPS (last 5 weeks) baseclogging GIDP-meister with suspect defense out there, even if it's only twice a week.

Ben Davis (versus RHP) and Jaime Burke (vers LHP) have caught fire in the last month or so, and are sound defensively......You HAVE to take a chance on that continuing. If they fail, then so be it - at least there is a chance they won't, based on recent performance. Sandy is done.





.....

Gimm
08-10-2004, 01:43 PM
Gimm says: "Only if you're a hopeless pessimist who can't see this that this team is no more than 2 minor offensive upgrades away from making the ALC race reaaaally interesting."

as opposed to being 'delusional' by thinking that two 'minor' moves are going to suddenly propell the Sox past two teams.

I admire your tenacity but I question your intelligence on this matter.

LipOh please.

You've been selling this team short when they were 2 games up. What was your excusae back then, or were you sheepishly sitting back and awaiting your shining moment when the team would inevitably collapse? Congrads.

I question your baseball knowledge if you can't see how Kenny Lofton and Jose Cruz, Jr, i.e. 'minor offensive upgrades', can help this team win all those imminently winnable 1-run and 2-run games we've been losing in bunches lately (9 of them of the last 11 losses) and possibly make up the 5 game decifit in the loss column in the next 54 games.

You can't seem to grasp the "self-fullfilling prophecy" concept - when you keep trotting Borchard/Timo/Gload/Sandy/Jackson/Cotts out there when your team is up by 2 in the standings.....then doing it when your team is team is tied for 1st....then when your team is 3 behind......and when your team finishes 7 games out, you can always say "see, I told you they couldn't do it". Well, no ****, if the 2-3 holes were addressed quickly and early, then the slump wouldn't have been nearly as devastating and the team would be RIGHT in the thick of things, if not in the 1st place altogether.

No wonder Minnesota can seem like an unbeatable 800-pound Gorilla. JR and KW are to blame here, of course, but they can also rectify their mistakes in the next week since it's NOT too late.

In http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=38710 thread it's explained what has to be done to salavage the season and, hopefully, do some damage in the playoffs. No guarantees, of course (this is baseball afterall), but the season is FAR from over....and every frustratingly close loss is another testament to that. Delusional my ass.

mcfish
08-10-2004, 01:43 PM
Release him??? No, you put him on DL with a "knee problem" to save face. He can still call pitches from the dugout and tutor and all that good stuff.

You just can't trot out a 300 OPS (last 5 weeks) baseclogging GIDP-meister with suspect defense out there, even if it's only twice a week.

Ben Davis (versus RHP) and Jaime Burke (vers) have caught fire in the last month or so, and are sound defensively......You HAVE to take a chance on that continuing. If they fail, then so be it - at least there is a chance they won't based on recent performance. Sandy is done.That, I think most would accept as a middle road solution. Wealz on the other hand wants Sandy to be given his outright release right now, which would be stupid. I would prefer to let Sandy continue to play on the sinking ship, but I can see your point and I don't think it's nearly as offensive as the other suggestion, and it could probably be done correctly and with respect to everyone involved. Don't know if it will happen, but I guess it could be, if done correctly.

I also think that Ben Davis should be getting almost all the starts to see how he handles all situations. Jamie Burke is 32 years old and not going to be around much longer. I would much rather try to find a permanent backstop in Davis than see a Davis/Burke platoon.

Gimm
08-10-2004, 01:55 PM
. Jamie Burke is 32 years old and not going to be around much longer. I would much rather try to find a permanent backstop in Davis than see a Davis/Burke platoon.Forget his age or minor league numbers, Jaimme Burke is hitting lefties VERY well and, more importantly, is looking good while doing it. Why? Because unlike the other selfish Babe Ruthes on this ballclub, he is content with getting a soft single to RF or a soft blooper perfectly splitting the gap for a double. His success is not hard to understand - he knows his limitations. He also plays a very effective D. If need be, he can even play a tolerable 3B and LF, and runs bases well for a catcher.

Since 70% of ML starters are LH, Davis will still get majority of the starts.

Lip Man 1
08-10-2004, 10:17 PM
Gimm:

It's over....accept it. Kenny Williams is DONE doing ANYTHING this season.

Besides as has been pointed out Lofton, a malingerer and he's what close to 40 had his problems with KW.

That'll be the LAST person Williams tries to acquire.

Sorry Gimm, that gave it a shot but were mediocre even without the injuries. They need an almost complete overhaul next season to even attempt to stay close with Minnesota and Cleveland.

When the largest lead you can get in almost four years in a crappy division, has been 2 1/2 games you have serious trouble. It goes way beyond Kenny Lofton and Jose Cruz Jr. yea they'll turn the tide. LOL

and I appreciate the congratulations but it didn't take a genius to see this club didn't have what it takes. A number of folks said the same thing.

Lip

jordan23ventura
08-10-2004, 10:33 PM
What you don't realize is that the REASON why this team "has no shot at winning" (don't agree but time is definately running out) is because they have Sandy Alomar....and Felix Diaz.....and Mike Jackson....and Neal Cotts....and Joe Borchard...and Timo Perez...and Ross Gload....and Scott Schoeneweis...and, ah why am I even repeating this? You didn't get the point I brought up the first time and you won't now.

And shame on you for bringing Fisk into this.
Yes. Not near as good as Ivan Rodriguez.....and Jason Schmidt.....and Fransico Rodriguez.....and Eric Gagne.......and Bobby Abreu.......and Juan Pierre.......and Jim Thome.......and Pedro Martinez.

jordan23ventura
08-10-2004, 10:39 PM
Funny stuff. Alomar has to go.
Why do you bother quoting a post if you're not going to bother responding to it intelligently? Alomar is no more guilty of this team's record than anyone else, and if he's helping somebody, let him stay.

Gimm
08-10-2004, 11:02 PM
Gimm:

It's over....accept it. It's a good thing we have archives. I'll get back to you in 2 months. We'll see if your smugness will hold up then.

Kenny Williams is DONE doing ANYTHING this season.That, my friend, means nothing - this organization is nothing if not HIGHLY proficient at shooting itself in the foot.

Garcia and Contreras were inspired moves to beef up rotation, and Robbie and Everett provide depth. However, the fact that Timo/Borchard/Crede have been starting in RF/3B for many weeks, and when you lose a lot of close games as your team is struggling (Valentin, Harris and Uribe had awful July), having an extra automatic out in the line-up is the difference between being TIED for 1st and 5 games out in the loss column.

Kenny failed on making 1 big upgrade (Walker-type) or two smaller upgrades (Cruz and Lofton/Hairston), and unfortunately that might or might not cost us the season. He did a good job, but considering the heart of line-up was ripped out when Frank/Maggs went down, he needed to do a GREAT job - he failed to live to the lofty standards, which is Cheapo JR's fault as much as it is Kenny's.

Besides as has been pointed out Lofton, a malingerer and he's what close to 40 had his problems with KW.That he is a maligner is BS. He was lethal with the Giants and the Cubs in 2002 and 2003 (and if you don't understand what a good lead-off hitter can do to a team, just ask the Twins about Stewart), and there is no reason why he can't do it with us - he just wants a starting job, and Yankees are jerking him around. KW hates him, but if Kenny is smart, he'll be a professional and put this crap behind him.

Sorry Gimm, they gave it a shot but were mediocre even without the injuries. That is just crap.

When this team was healthy and clicking, they were rolling people over ....despite the best efforts of the 5th starter (automatic loss), Billy Koch, Mike Jackson, Timo, Borch, Crede and Sandy Alomar to sabotage our playoffs chances.

Ask the Twins when we were crushing them 6-games-to-1 (with the only loss coming courtesy of our 5th starter, Cotts) in Metrodome in May and June how "mediocre" our team was.

They need an almost complete overhaul next season to even attempt to stay close with Minnesota and Cleveland.I wholeheartedly disagree with your premis(es).

What this team needs is to continue cutting crap - they got rid of Koch, White, Rios, Daubach, Clayton, Ritchie, Ramirez, Jimenez, Parque, Glover, Rauch, Paul, Singleton, Johnson, etc, etc. Now they have to make sure the players who sabotaged 2004 -- Jackson, Timo, Crede, Schoeneweis, Diaz, Borchard and Munoz -- do not come within shooting distance of starting jobs in 2005, unless a huge improvement in their game is observed during Winter ball and Spring Training, that is.

You'd be suprised out of your MIND how good this team can be if healthy and with some holes like 5th starter and bullpen bridge hopefully closed up. Use your baseball acumen and think back to how many games we lost in 2003 and 2004 alone. All Sox need to ensure that is a 15% increase in 2005 payroll commmeasurable with the increased revenues from raised ticket prices, improved attendance, parking, concessions, merchandise, ratings, rev. sharing (hopefuly that includes playoffs :D: ) as well as the Comcast dough. Even for cheapo JR, that's not a lot.

It goes way beyond Kenny Lofton and Jose Cruz Jr. yea they'll turn the tide.Re-read the title post in the thread I linked to more carefully. Cruz and Lofton/Hairston are just a step, albeit a deceptively important one. There are 3-4 other things that have to be done and fast - no, I don't mean trades.

As I said before, even with those modest moves, there are NO guarantees Sox win the division - Twins ARE up by 5 games in the loss column afterall. But it would give us a very good fightin' chance, which is ALL Sox fans are asking for.

Remember, the player who makes the Twins go, Stewart, is still nursing that injury that could put him back on DL in NO time on that hard surface he plays on - and without him, Twins were struggling to stay above .500 in the last 2 years, literally.

It's amazing how a person (you) who presumably witnessed many comebacks in the last 2-3 years pulled off by ostensibly "mediocre" teams, is writing this team off even IF they made afiormentioned minor acquisitions, even IF they had Thomas/Magglio healthy. That's just pessimism at its worst.

Oh well, I'll re-visit the archives in about 2 months.





......

Lip Man 1
08-10-2004, 11:20 PM
Gimm:

Last I looked the 2001 and 2003 teams didn't win squat did they?

'Comebacks' are meaningless unless you win something.

'People don't care to hear about labor pains...they only want to see the baby.'--Sox pitching coach Johnny Sain on 'excuses.'

Oh call it smugness if you want, I know what I see and what I have seen for 43 seasons now. Be sure to recheck the posts in two months Gimm...because you known damn well that I'm going to now! :smile:

and I repeat their biggest divisional lead since the start of the 2001 season has been 2 1/2 games...period. That's not 'running away' with anything, even this year.

Ozzie is going to demand massive changes, I don't know if he'll get it, but he's going to push for it. That could mean good bye to station to station, can't bunt, can't hit and run, can't run, can't steal, swing for the fences on every pitch baseball.

And it can't come to soon. The White Sox are not, never was and never will be a home run / power team. They are a franchise of pitching, speed, pitching, defense, more speed and more pitching.

They need to go back to their roots.

Lip

Aidan
08-10-2004, 11:24 PM
Jamie Burke may be brought up with Felix Diaz going back down to the minors. Scott Schoeneweis needs surgery (http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/cws/news/cws_news.jsp?ymd=20040810&content_id=824541&vkey=news_cws&fext=.jsp) and will be out for about a month. The Sox may go with a 4-man rotation the rest of the way...

http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/cws/news/cws_news.jsp?ymd=20040810&content_id=824487&vkey=news_cws&fext=.jsp

mdep524
08-10-2004, 11:37 PM
No more Borchard, Sandy and Timo in the line-up.
OK guys, say what you will about Sandy (I personally don't think he makes a difference either way- this team isn't going to suddenly get much better if Sandy goes on the DL), and I agree Borchard is pure crap.

But why all the Timo bashing?? You cannot lump him with the underacheivers, he is doing a great job at the plate, he starts rallies, hits in the clutch, bunts effectively, does all the little things to WIN GAMES the rest of this team's all-or-nothing power hitters neglect.

For example, bottom of the ninth on Sunday, 2 out: every other player on the White Sox would have swung for a walk off HR in that situation and probably popped out to end the inning. What does Timo do? Nice single up the middle, then he distracts the Indians' pitcher, then Davis doubles and the Sox win. In yesterday's 7 run inning who led off with a walk? Timo.

I would the Sox need Timo IN the line up every day if they want to win.

Gimm
08-11-2004, 12:00 AM
OK guys, say what you will about Sandy (I personally don't think he makes a difference either way- this team isn't going to suddenly get much better if Sandy goes on the DL), and I agree Borchard is pure crap..
Sandy is desintgrating fast. Burke-Davis platoon could give you 750+ OPS whiel Sandy would be lucky to give you 600 between now and end of the year. Burke and Davis are also faster and better defensively than Sandy at this point. Just because neither is I-Rod, doesn't mean Sox couldn't use the obvious improvement - remember, when you lose 1-run games, EVERY liability in the line-up COUNTS - that goes for lead-off hitters as well as 9th place hitters.

Sandy will be a rising star manager/coach, so you can't release him. But you can put him on DL. With Sox hopefully switching to a 4-man rotation, we need an extra roster spot for Kelly Wunsch and Felix Diaz in the pen.

But why all the Timo bashing??
620 OPS and average baserunning/defense is why.

Give me a Larry Walker or even a Cruz Jr in RF instead.

mdep524
08-11-2004, 12:21 AM
620 OPS and average baserunning/defense is why.

Give me a Larry Walker or even a Cruz Jr in RF instead.
Haha, well OK sure, Larry Walker. And give me ARod at 3rd over Crede any day.

You're right about his defense, it is not good. But his production at the plate- manufactoring runs- makes up for it.

MRKARNO
08-11-2004, 12:34 AM
We're something like 6-14 since June 1st when Alomar is the starting catcher. Let that number speak for itself. He might be an important clubhouse leader and veteran, but he needs to catch as little as possible, only when Ben Davis needs rest.

Gimm
08-11-2004, 01:40 AM
We're something like 6-14 since June 1st when Alomar is the starting catcher. Let that number speak for itself. In the last 6 weeks, he's been a 350 OPS player, which is beyond horrid in itself, but his defense is very shaky as well (I still can't figure out how he allowed a fastball right down the middle of the plate to go for a pass ball against Detroit, but then, that inning featured 4 defensive miscues by Valentin, Harris, him and Crede, so you know, spooky :redneck ) and he can't run at all.

When we were slugging the hell out of the ball, you could live with Sandy in the line-up. But our offense has been dying a slow death for a while now, and the absolutely LAST thing we need is an automatic out Sandy/Borchard/Timo in the line-up.

gosox41
08-11-2004, 09:13 AM
Pass ball on a pitch down the middle of the plate in Detroit, leading to a loss. Catcher's interference on Hefner that set up that huge inning and led to another loss. Awful tag on the play at home, which also contributed to said loss. Just a couple of recent examples.



4 for his last 33 with no extra-base hits and 1 walk. Retire his useless ass or at least put him on DL so he could continue his pitch-calling.
I agree. Sandy is a great guy to ahve around in the clubhouse, but man is he washed up. Of course he was washed up the first time KW signed him, and the second time too.


Make Sandy a coach. His pitch calling ability hasn't helped the Sox win any divisions while he has been here and neither has his lack of hitting.


Bob