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basilesox
08-09-2004, 10:06 PM
This came might be by far the worst managed game I have ever seen in my life. The decision to have our best hitter on the team currently bunt with two guys on and nobody out when we trailed by two runs was absolutely horrific. Nobody on this team is hitting over .300 except Aaron and I personally would have not wanted anybody else up in a crucial situation then him with the way he has hit the ball in the last month.

So how does Cora, Cooper, and Co. top that horrible decision. They send in Cliff Politte in a situation that we needed a hold more than we have needed one all season. Politte has shown over and over that he has no business in the game during a pressure situation. After rallying from 8 down, they fail to put either one of our two best relief pitchers in to stop the Indians.

If this is the turning point that should have come in the season tonight, but didn't we can thank poor strategy as our ultimate demise which points to the fact that our manager and coaching staff maybe in way over their heads.

mealfred13
08-09-2004, 10:13 PM
can't say i disagre....This game should have been won 2 times over....

ma_deuce
08-09-2004, 10:13 PM
Cardiac ball... you gotta love it.

Now, where did I put that bottle?
:gulp: :gulp: :gulp:

kittle42
08-09-2004, 10:14 PM
This came might be by far the worst managed game I have ever seen in my life. The decision to have our best hitter on the team currently bunt with two guys on and nobody out when we trailed by two runs was absolutely horrific. Nobody on this team is hitting over .300 except Aaron and I personally would have not wanted anybody else up in a crucial situation then him with the way he has hit the ball in the last month.

So how does Cora, Cooper, and Co. top that horrible decision. They send in Cliff Politte in a situation that we needed a hold more than we have needed one all season. Politte has shown over and over that he has no business in the game during a pressure situation. After rallying from 8 down, they fail to put either one of our two best relief pitchers in to stop the Indians.

If this is the turning point that should have come in the season tonight, but didn't we can thank poor strategy as our ultimate demise which points to the fact that our manager and coaching staff maybe in way over their heads.

Hey, baseball genius....Rowand up. 2 on. No one out. He must bunt.

DoggPhood
08-09-2004, 10:14 PM
HEY! You posted that before the game was over!


Sure, we lost. But strangely I don't feel that bad about this loss.

OurBitchinMinny
08-09-2004, 10:14 PM
Down by two and no outs with runners on first and second is a bunting situation. Rowand isnt a power hitter. Bunting was the right call. Rowand didnt execute. Only power hitters dont bunt

kittle42
08-09-2004, 10:14 PM
Hello, optimists? Go away.

OurBitchinMinny
08-09-2004, 10:15 PM
The sox easily have the worst pen in baseball right now and its not even close

nitetrain8601
08-09-2004, 10:15 PM
I agree. Politte doesn't do pressure situations. Then to put in Mike Jackson is just stupid. They got away with that one though. That AR bunting thing was completely stupid. In one of the most important games of the year, you had to think what Ozzie and co. were doing.

Nard
08-09-2004, 10:15 PM
I don't want to see another sac bunt ever again unless it's to manufacture the winning run in late innings.

This is the American League.

losingugly2004
08-09-2004, 10:16 PM
I agree with you. Even though we don't have much pitching besides our top three starters and Shingo, it seems like Ozzie & Co. leave an ineffective pitcher in there one hitter too many for several times this season. Can they learn from their past mistakes?Did Diaz not give up 11 runs in 1 1/3 innings in Montreal? Did Politte get his lunch handed to him last week against Detroit?

Brian26
08-09-2004, 10:16 PM
Great heart shown by the offense, but unfortunately Politte and Mike Jackson decided to mail it in tonight.

Win1ForMe
08-09-2004, 10:16 PM
I think we've entered "funny bad" territory. And that sound you hear is Aaron Rowand crashing back down to earth.

Lip Man 1
08-09-2004, 10:17 PM
Don't forget the role of the bullpen in tonight's loss.

Adkins, Cotts and Jackson have no business being on a major league roster. Yet another area that needs major upgrading next season.

Takatsu, Politte and Marte are the only decent guys out there and you've seen how inconsistent the later two have been.

Lip

OEO Magglio
08-09-2004, 10:17 PM
I feel like I've just been punched in the stomach, this game hurts so much.

ma_deuce
08-09-2004, 10:17 PM
Hey, baseball genius....Rowand up. 2 on. No one out. He must bunt.Rowand can't bunt. Rowand can hit (at least he could until this series). Let him hit. Playing by the percentages is exactly what Manuel did, and that got us nowhere in a hurry. Funny enough, neither did Rowand's lame attempt to bunt.

Soxzilla
08-09-2004, 10:17 PM
Hey, baseball genius....Rowand up. 2 on. No one out. He must bunt.
Sure, and rowand bunted down the third base line and they get sandy at third and maybe rowand at first.

Congratulations you've just killed a rally.

He should have faked the bunt, and drawn in the corners. The injuns knew we would bunt, but that is exactly when you DONT bunt. It's called swinging away, and noone on our team is better at that than rowand with his short quick swing.

Douche.

OurBitchinMinny
08-09-2004, 10:18 PM
I dont understand. 2 on nobody out YOU BUNT. Getting a bunt down should be simple. Too many people are confusing rowand with babe ruth i think. rowand also tried to kill a rally in the 6th. Not that its his fault. Its the teams fault for starting crappy diaz and the pens fault (not including cotts) for absolutely sucking. So much for our easy schedule. We just got our ass kicked by detroit, cleveland and KC

OEO Magglio
08-09-2004, 10:18 PM
Don't forget the role of the bullpen in tonight's loss.

Adkins, Cotts and Jackson have no business being on a major league roster. Yet another area that needs major upgrading next season.

Takatsu, Politte and Marte are the only decent guys out there and you've seen how inconsistent the later two have been.

LipWhat did Cotts do wrong? He was great tonight. Cliff can't pitch past 1 inning of relief, that's been proven over an over this year, that was a bad move by the coaching staff.

Huisj
08-09-2004, 10:18 PM
Great heart shown by the offense, but unfortunately Politte and Mike Jackson decided to mail it in tonight.
well, not to mention the 7-0 hole to start the game too.

OurBitchinMinny
08-09-2004, 10:18 PM
Sure, and rowand bunted down the third base line and they get sandy at third and maybe rowand at first.

Congratulations you've just killed a rally.

He should have faked the bunt, and drawn in the corners. The injuns knew we would bunt, but that is exactly when you DONT bunt. It's called swinging away, and noone on our team is better at that than rowand with his short quick swing.

Douche.
Sandy should have been PR for. That was ozzies fault. The bunt call was the right one. ROWAND IS NOT BABE RUTH. He isnt above bunting. Geez

duke of dorwood
08-09-2004, 10:19 PM
WE just are not as good as the Toons- they score off us at will. This is the sad reality right now. We dont have the young, aggressive hitters in numbers they have. Unless some change in philosophy to spend some $ to bring some quality hitters here, while the farm system is rebuilt, we will be behind them for years-AGAIN

Huisj
08-09-2004, 10:19 PM
btw, does diaz have a pitch other than a meatball?

mantis1212
08-09-2004, 10:19 PM
This team is finding a new way to lose everyday! I didn't know there was this many different ways to lose! What's gonna happen tomorrow? Garland pitches a no-hitter and we lose on three walks and a past ball?

Lip Man 1
08-09-2004, 10:19 PM
Nard says: "I don't want to see another sac bunt ever again unless it's to manufacture the winning run in late innings. This is the American League.'

And most American League teams have more then three hitters in their lineup. Have you seen what some of the Sox hitters have been doing since the All Star Break?

Lip

OEO Magglio
08-09-2004, 10:19 PM
Rowand can't bunt. Actually besides Timo, Rowand has probably been the most consistant bunter we've had all year.

Win1ForMe
08-09-2004, 10:20 PM
I don't want to see another sac bunt ever again unless it's to manufacture the winning run in late innings.

This is the American League.Yup, more popouts and strikeouts all the way around. I guess I agree in a sense; we should bunt, but since we're so terrible at it, we're just giving outs away.

And if you're a borderline starting outfielder in the major leagues, shouldn't you at least have the ability to bunt?

OurBitchinMinny
08-09-2004, 10:20 PM
Don't forget the role of the bullpen in tonight's loss.

Adkins, Cotts and Jackson have no business being on a major league roster. Yet another area that needs major upgrading next season.

Takatsu, Politte and Marte are the only decent guys out there and you've seen how inconsistent the later two have been.

Lip

Everyone in the pen, including takatsu and marte have been horrible this week. Cotts did ok tonight, but he should have started the game. Great job by our top pitching prospect though

inta
08-09-2004, 10:20 PM
jesus freakin christ, what is with the complete lack of unalignment with the pitching and the offense?


i mean my god...

mike squires
08-09-2004, 10:21 PM
I am reminded once again tonight why I am on blood pressure medication...:angry:

Lip Man 1
08-09-2004, 10:21 PM
OEO:

Have you seen the number of walks allowed by Cotts this season?

Lip

duke of dorwood
08-09-2004, 10:21 PM
Cotts appears to have much more upside than Diaz. Adkins is a role player. Jackson, Politte-CHEAP replacements.

ma_deuce
08-09-2004, 10:22 PM
I dont understand. 2 on nobody out YOU BUNT. Getting a bunt down should be simple. Too many people are confusing rowand with babe ruth i think. rowand also tried to kill a rally in the 6th. Not that its his fault. Its the teams fault for starting crappy diaz and the pens fault (not including cotts) for absolutely sucking. So much for our easy schedule. We just got our ass kicked by detroit, cleveland and KC
I'm not saying he should swing for the fenses, but a single would have been great. If Rowand could bunt, I would say that he should try. But he can't, so why try? Cleveland knew it was coming, so the best thing to do is line it to the bases. Everyone was so far in, they had no chance to make the play, and it would have meant extra bases at that.

Nard
08-09-2004, 10:23 PM
Especially when you're up against the Wahoos. What are the Wahoos known for? Best O in the league, terrible bullpen. So basically most games are gonna be scoring contests.

So why are you trying to manufacture 1, maybe, maybe 2 runs in the 7th inning when you're LOSING THE GAME BY MORE THAN A RUN?

mike squires
08-09-2004, 10:23 PM
Yup, more popouts and strikeouts all the way around. I guess I agree in a sense; we should bunt, but since we're so terrible at it, we're just giving outs away.

And if you're a borderline starting outfielder in the major leagues, shouldn't you at least have the ability to bunt?
I told my wife the same thing. I said here is a pro ball player making a ton of money...you would think he would know how to get a bunt down, BUT correct me if I am wrong but Aaron has never been a good bunter. I recall more than once this season struggling in situational hitting. I would have let him swing away.

duke of dorwood
08-09-2004, 10:24 PM
This "Organization" has no plan-we have a solid nucleus of starters to build on. It can be fixed with one or 2 top notch acquisitions. That should be the plan

Patrick134
08-09-2004, 10:24 PM
Awesome comeback, great heart. Good things ahead, this was just like the paniagua/twins game. Great days ahead for the sox.

mike squires
08-09-2004, 10:24 PM
At least I don't have to worry about watching ESPN news back to back to back to back to back to back to back listening to Hawks emotional dramatic call...

Win1ForMe
08-09-2004, 10:25 PM
This team is finding a new way to lose everyday! I didn't know there was this many different ways to lose! What's gonna happen tomorrow? Garland pitches a no-hitter and we lose on three walks and a past ball?
That does sounds like a Jon Garland game. :(:

Lip Man 1
08-09-2004, 10:25 PM
The only question remaining this season is will the Sox even have a winning year?

Lip

Soxzilla
08-09-2004, 10:25 PM
Sandy should have been PR for. That was ozzies fault. The bunt call was the right one. ROWAND IS NOT BABE RUTH. He isnt above bunting. Geez
Ozzie was ejected.

And I agree, he should have been pr'd for when he was on first base...but of course that would have been intelligent.

That changes the whole dynamic though, because aaron doesn't have to worry so much about pushing the bunt to the third base side. Which is the whole reason he got himself out.

losingugly2004
08-09-2004, 10:26 PM
One bright side about this game was that we get to see White give up the long ball for somebody other than the White Sox this time. That was his best pitch when he was with us last year. I hope Cleveland can appreciate him.

BigEdWalsh
08-09-2004, 10:26 PM
Awesome comeback, great heart. Good things ahead, this was just like the paniagua/twins game. Great days ahead for the sox.
:kneeslap:
I wish so....but it ain't happenin'!

Jerko
08-09-2004, 10:26 PM
Nice heart and all trying to come back from 8 down, but somebody, ANYBODY, tell these guys that there is no rule saying that you have to let the other team score the inning after you score every single, solitary time!!!! And if there's 2 on with no outs, they're on for a reason; the pitcher didn't get em out. Why bunt with Rowand when OZ himself got pissed that Rowand bunted ON HIS OWN the other night while losing 3-0! Ozzie said "that's my best hitter, why he bunting for?". So, did OZ call for the bunt tonite or did Rowand do it on his own again? I don't even blame that though. I blame our mentally deficient pitchers who can't go out and close the door after the offense puts up some runs. I hate that more than anything these days. :angry:

OEO Magglio
08-09-2004, 10:26 PM
OEO:

Have you seen the number of walks allowed by Cotts this season?

LipLip, you didn't answer my question, what did Cotts do wrong tonight?

mike squires
08-09-2004, 10:26 PM
That does sounds like a Jon Garland game. :(:

Somewhere, Andy Hawkins is not laughing...

basilesox
08-09-2004, 10:27 PM
Hey, baseball genius....Rowand up. 2 on. No one out. He must bunt.
Hey Ignorant Jag.......

There is no way he should have bunted in that situation. The Sox don't manufacture runs and every time they bunt someone over. Then next guy either pops it up or strikes out which means that you have a guy sitting on third with two outs instead of one.

Rowand has been the only player on this team hitting consistently during this horrid two weeks. I dont care if he is not a power hitter, because a double in the gap ties the game up in that situation. So next time try spouting some common sense before you make any comments about my IQ.

Lip Man 1
08-09-2004, 10:28 PM
OEO:

I'm not talking about 'tonight.' I'm talking about this season and next season and Cotts is nothing but a AAAA pitcher.

He shouldn't be on the roster of a 'contending' team... same as Adkins. they are nothing.
Lip

dcb33
08-09-2004, 10:29 PM
Rowand? Bunt? Are you kidding me? The Sox were doomed when we failed to bring in our best reliever(s) at the end of the game. Doesn't it go that most major league managers don't want to lose the game without bringing their best guy in when they have a chance? Instead, we leave in a never-was and follow that with a washed-up hasbeen to help blow the game for us. The Sox had the momentum going into the 9th, and had we not given up all those runs, probably would've pulled it out. How you leave both Shingo and Marte on the bench is beyond me.

Soxzilla
08-09-2004, 10:30 PM
the decision to keep politte on in the ninth was why we lost. You give the ball to marte. Idiots.

Kogs35
08-09-2004, 10:30 PM
since im fuming with anger tonight im going to go on the optomistic positive side and im not using teal by saying we will win the rest of the homestand. cleveland will loose 2 and then beat the twinkies this weekend and while we take care of boston in there place. i hope this loss actually puts life into them. i expect for the twins lead to be at 2 games the most when we face the phillies aug30th. i dont care its not sept and we r hanging by thread. go ahead and flame me or whatever but im serious. if u heard what ben davis had to say on game night last night you would understand how i feel.

Win1ForMe
08-09-2004, 10:30 PM
Why bunt with Rowand when OZ himself got pissed that Rowand bunted ON HIS OWN the other night while losing 3-0!
Because if you move the runners over, you can tie the game with one single (you know, as opposed to swinging for the fences), or come within one on a sac fly.

Of course the Sox probably like your approach better. Why hit singles when you can hit HOME RUNS! Whopee!

BigEdWalsh
08-09-2004, 10:30 PM
OEO:

I'm not talking about 'tonight.' I'm talking about this season and next season and Cotts is nothing but a AAAA pitcher.

He shouldn't be on the roster of a 'contending' team... same as Adkins. they are nothing.
Lip
Hey Lip, your 5000th post! :bandance:

I agree about Cotts and Adkins.
This bullpen aside from Shingo and somewhat Marte and Politte SUCKS!

OEO Magglio
08-09-2004, 10:31 PM
OEO:

I'm not talking about 'tonight.' I'm talking about this season and next season and Cotts is nothing but a AAAA pitcher.

LipWell let me just say I completely disagree with that. I've said it before I think Neal is going to be a star.

ma_deuce
08-09-2004, 10:31 PM
Actually besides Timo, Rowand has probably been the most consistant bunter we've had all year.
I'm not surprised, though I don't think that is a good standard to go by. This team doesn't bunt. Being the best bunter on a team that doesn't bunt isn't saying much. Rowand should have swung once he saw that the infiled was creeping up on him.

Soxzilla
08-09-2004, 10:31 PM
Because if you move the runners over, you can tie the game with one single (you know, as opposed to swinging for the fences), or come within one on a sac fly.

Of course the Sox probably like your approach better. Why hit singles when you can hit HOME RUNS! Whopee!
Did you watch the game tonite?

If so, tell me how we got back into the game?

mike squires
08-09-2004, 10:31 PM
This came might be by far the worst managed game I have ever seen in my life. The decision to have our best hitter on the team currently bunt with two guys on and nobody out when we trailed by two runs was absolutely horrific. Nobody on this team is hitting over .300 except Aaron and I personally would have not wanted anybody else up in a crucial situation then him with the way he has hit the ball in the last month.

So how does Cora, Cooper, and Co. top that horrible decision. They send in Cliff Politte in a situation that we needed a hold more than we have needed one all season. Politte has shown over and over that he has no business in the game during a pressure situation. After rallying from 8 down, they fail to put either one of our two best relief pitchers in to stop the Indians.

If this is the turning point that should have come in the season tonight, but didn't we can thank poor strategy as our ultimate demise which points to the fact that our manager and coaching staff maybe in way over their heads.
Harold tried to tell Cora to call the Rowand bunt off but forgot how to talk...

Nard
08-09-2004, 10:32 PM
We lost because of Felix and only because of Felix. We will never start Felix again for the rest of the season. If someone in the five-spot gets injured in a later and there needs to be a new starter for a much more important game, we now know that Felix definitely will not be pitching.

There is some advantage to this because it is still earlier than it could've been.

Anyways, Harold must've been dreaming about his star days laying down bunts in little league and made the bunt call in his sleep.

ma_deuce
08-09-2004, 10:33 PM
the decision to keep politte on in the ninth was why we lost. You give the ball to marte. Idiots.
Amen, brother.

princek
08-09-2004, 10:33 PM
the decision to keep politte on in the ninth was why we lost. You give the ball to marte. Idiots.

i agree 100% , what the **** is politte and jackson doing in there in the ninth , this game couldve been a monumental comeback and turnaround for the season. Horrible managing all game!!!!

CanadianSoxFan
08-09-2004, 10:36 PM
Cotts has been pitching really well of late. I hope he's turned a corner and will stay consistent. Look at his past 10 games or so, solid numbers. He was taken out too early imo, we should have gotten at least 1 more inning out of him if possible, then we'd have been saved one inning from either Politte or Adkins and won the game. Good comeback tonight, lets hope the boys will keep fighting.

Iron Dragon
08-09-2004, 10:36 PM
I agree with what Hawk said about Diaz. He just needs to learn how to pitch at the major league level. The dude kills AAA. He's just got to take the next step, and once he does, he'll be fine.

fan_since_64
08-09-2004, 10:36 PM
Fellow tormented sox fans:

maybe this has alread been addressed earlier, but why do we send down Burke who is hitting 300 and leave Borchard on the team? Also S. Alomar who looks done to me. he's hitting .107 over his last 10 games, which are ofteb 3-4 days apart. he is not capable of playing on any sort of regular basis.

i just do not see any sort of plan in place here.

Jerko
08-09-2004, 10:36 PM
Because if you move the runners over, you can tie the game with one single (you know, as opposed to swinging for the fences), or come within one on a sac fly.

Of course the Sox probably like your approach better. Why hit singles when you can hit HOME RUNS! Whopee!
I never said let him swing for the fences. He (Rowand) has been horrid at best bunting lately so maybe by freaking mid-august someone in charge should realize that. Then again, the manager himself 2 short days ago said Rowand should "not be bunting, he's my best hitter", and then he tries it again tonight with the same disatrous results. Maybe he was just foolin on those Indians thru the media.

BigEdWalsh
08-09-2004, 10:37 PM
We lost because of Felix and only because of Felix. We will never start Felix again for the rest of the season. If someone in the five-spot gets injured in a later and there needs to be a new starter for a much more important game, we now know that Felix definitely will not be pitching.

There is some advantage to this because it is still earlier than it could've been.
Ya never know. How many times was Danny Frickin' Wright trotted out there? Schoenweiss? Diaz already. I wouldn't be shocked if he starts again. I know he's not ready for the majors. You know it. We all know it. But the Sox never cease to amaze.:dunno:

CanadianSoxFan
08-09-2004, 10:37 PM
I think Burke being sent down is to give him a cuople of days to recover from his concussion like symptoms. I'm sure he'll be back up soon.

MarkEdward
08-09-2004, 10:39 PM
I agree. Politte doesn't do pressure situations. Then to put in Mike Jackson is just stupid. They got away with that one though. That AR bunting thing was completely stupid. In one of the most important games of the year, you had to think what Ozzie and co. were doing.
WTH are you talking about? Politte has been excellent besides one poor stretch this year - his job is ONE INNING, not two. Cooper, of all people, should know his pitchers - I agree - Coop got totally outmanaged tonight. (Ozzie got thrown out, correct?)

basilesox
08-09-2004, 10:42 PM
Sandy should have been PR for. That was ozzies fault. The bunt call was the right one. ROWAND IS NOT BABE RUTH. He isnt above bunting. Geez
I didn't say that Rowand is Babe Ruth. I am just saying that he has a better chance of getting a hit then almost anybody else on the team. Not necessarily, a HR, but a hit. When we are swinging as well as we were in this game we should not be giving away any outs.

Win1ForMe
08-09-2004, 10:45 PM
Well let me just say I completely disagree with that. I've said it before I think Neal is going to be a star.
Neal Cotts has pitched better than his numbers indicate; his WHIP is only behind Takatsu, Garcia, Marte, and Buhrle...very nice. But his ERA is high because he's usually followed by Mike Jackson, and he's unspeakably bad in allowing inherited runners to score. Just compare Jackson and Cotts in this aspect:

Cotts - 3 scored/20 inherited (15%)
Jackson - 15/24 (62.5%) --- sure to go up after today
Marte - 7/25 (28%)
Politte - 7/26 (26.9%)

I included the last two for comparison. Not sure if Neal will ever be any good as a starter, but he's pitched OK out of the bullpen this year.

MRKARNO
08-09-2004, 10:47 PM
I would love to see the White Sox make a run at it this year, but it seems clear that the White Sox are just not a playoff calibur team without Thomas and Ordonez. The rotation consists of 3 and a half pitchers (the half being Garland) In The bullpen only Shingo is reliable, Marte is good most of the time and Politte some of the time. Everyone else sucks. (Look at other contending teams' bullpens to see how much better their pens are than ours.) The hitting isn't really better than average without Thomas and Maggs. If we make the playoffs, it will be because of heart because this team is not more talented than Cleveland or Minnesota without those two. With them, they certainly are the most talented team.

mdep524
08-09-2004, 10:49 PM
Actually besides Timo, Rowand has probably been the most consistant bunter we've had all year.
OEO, your WHAT hurts?

Rowand is a God awful bunter. I cannot recall EVER seeing him get a bunt down- his approach (jabbing half-heartedly at the ball) is terrible, and he is literally unable to get the job done. So whether or not it was a bunt situation tonight is moot: Aaron can't bunt, so he should have been swinging away. You can't ask a guy to do something he can't do, when will the Sox understand this?

All the other mistakes have been mentioned: Adkins, Politte, Jackson, etc.

One other thing: can we please learn not to groove first ball fastballs to Indians hitters????? They sit on 'em and kill 'em. It happened last month when Jackson gave up a grand slam to Broussard on the first pitch, and today when he came up against Diaz with the bases loaded I turned to everyone next to me in the upper deck and said "if he a first pitch fastball I predict grand slam." Then BAM. Then it happened AGAIN later in the game.

mike squires
08-09-2004, 10:49 PM
Fellow tormented sox fans:

maybe this has alread been addressed earlier, but why do we send down Burke who is hitting 300 and leave Borchard on the team? Also S. Alomar who looks done to me. he's hitting .107 over his last 10 games, which are ofteb 3-4 days apart. he is not capable of playing on any sort of regular basis.

i just do not see any sort of plan in place here.
How come Brochard was not used as a pinch runner for Konerko in the ninth? Granted borchard is no speed demon however I think he's faster than Paulie. Were they saving him for later if needed? Joe had two hits yesterday, right? Gload looked totally overmatched by White and looked as if he gave up. I would have rather seen Borchard in that instance. I know I'll be outnumbered though...I like what Gload has done this season and has fit into his role nicely but for some reason i would have even rather have seen Sandy.

Man Soo Lee
08-09-2004, 10:53 PM
How you leave both Shingo and Marte on the bench is beyond me.
Maybe it had something to do with the fact that Shingo had pitched three days in a row and Marte four days in a row. Maybe.

mdep524
08-09-2004, 10:53 PM
Neal Cotts has pitched better than his numbers indicate; his WHIP is only behind Takatsu, Garcia, Marte, and Buhrle...very nice. But his ERA is high because he's usually followed by Mike Jackson, and he's unspeakably bad in allowing inherited runners to score. Just compare Jackson and Cotts in this aspect:

Cotts - 3 scored/20 inherited (15%)
Jackson - 15/24 (62.5%) --- sure to go up after today
Marte - 7/25 (28%)
Politte - 7/26 (26.9%)

I included the last two for comparison. Not sure if Neal will ever be any good as a starter, but he's pitched OK out of the bullpen this year.
Great point- Cotts' ERA is misleadingly high. A very high percentage of the run charged to him this season have come from Jackson letting inherited runners score. Cotts' ERA looks really high because a.) Jackson always lets him down and b.) that one start he had against the Twins early in the season when he got rocked. He's certainly not a superstar out there, but he's not quite as bad as the numbers say.

OEO Magglio
08-09-2004, 10:56 PM
OEO, your WHAT hurts?

Rowand is a God awful bunter. I cannot recall EVER seeing him get a bunt down- his approach (jabbing half-heartedly at the ball) is terrible, and he is literally unable to get the job done. So whether or not it was a bunt situation tonight is moot: Aaron can't bunt, so he should have been swinging away. You can't ask a guy to do something he can't do, when will the Sox understand this?

All the other mistakes have been mentioned: Adkins, Politte, Jackson, etc.

One other thing: can we please learn not to groove first ball fastballs to Indians hitters????? They sit on 'em and kill 'em. It happened last month when Jackson gave up a grand slam to Broussard on the first pitch, and today when he came up against Diaz with the bases loaded I turned to everyone next to me in the upper deck and said "if he a first pitch fastball I predict grand slam." Then BAM. Then it happened AGAIN later in the game.I can recall a lot of bunts he's got down. I never said he was a great bunter, I said he's the most consistant one we have besides timo, which is true. Tonights attempts were bad but it was the right idea.

dcb33
08-09-2004, 10:59 PM
Maybe it had something to do with the fact that Shingo had pitched three days in a row and Marte four days in a row. Maybe.OK- good call. So instead, we leave Politte in the game, who gives up three runs. Let's forget about the fact that he can only give you one reliable inning.
Follow that up with Mike Jackson who sucks and balks in another run and now the Sox are down 5. Somehow I doubt an "overworked" combination of Shingo and/or Marte would've allowed as many runs. And even if it did, at least we could say they beat our best guys.

greenpeach
08-09-2004, 11:06 PM
This came might be by far the worst managed game I have ever seen in my life. The decision to have our best hitter on the team currently bunt with two guys on and nobody out when we trailed by two runs was absolutely horrific. Nobody on this team is hitting over .300 except Aaron and I personally would have not wanted anybody else up in a crucial situation then him with the way he has hit the ball in the last month.

So how does Cora, Cooper, and Co. top that horrible decision. They send in Cliff Politte in a situation that we needed a hold more than we have needed one all season. Politte has shown over and over that he has no business in the game during a pressure situation. After rallying from 8 down, they fail to put either one of our two best relief pitchers in to stop the Indians.

If this is the turning point that should have come in the season tonight, but didn't we can thank poor strategy as our ultimate demise which points to the fact that our manager and coaching staff maybe in way over their heads.
Diaz es muy malo. Nuff said. You can't spot a team eight runs & expect to win. Cleveland is a solid club.

RKMeibalane
08-09-2004, 11:09 PM
I can recall a lot of bunts he's got down. I never said he was a great bunter, I said he's the most consistant one we have besides timo, which is true. Tonights attempts were bad but it was the right idea.
You know what is really disturbing about this? I don't even remember the last time I saw any member of the Sox lay down a good bunt. This team is atrocious when it comes to executing and manufacturing runs.

Jerko
08-09-2004, 11:18 PM
I've seen a few good bunts this year, but it seems like 99 percent of them came in situations where it caught the other team off guard. In straight up bunt situations, when you KNOW they're gonna bunt, that's when they seem to unleash their worst ones.

mcfish
08-09-2004, 11:19 PM
I was at the Cell and I just got back and I'm too depressed to read 6 pages. This game was over in the second inning. They pretended to try to come back, but that was just a show to fool the optimists into thinking this team has a chance to go somewhere this year. The low point was when it was a 9-8 game with the bases loaded and I looked down from my seat in section 356 and saw Mike Jackson warming up. WHY DOESN'T SOMEONE IN THE COACHING RANKS OF THIS TEAM KNOW AT THIS POINT THAT JACKSON IS THE WORST PITCHER IN BASEBALL AT HOLDING INHERITED RUNNERS? He didn't disappoint either - he found a new way to let one of them in - the balk. Couldn't freakin' believe it. I was lucky I had drunk a lot of vodka because otherwise I might have been upset.

I almost forgot: YEAH! 3rd place.

mdep524
08-09-2004, 11:23 PM
So I was in the third base-side upper deck today (section 542), about ten rows back.

I was the guy with the "COME ON TIMO!" sign (a la Hawk's call last night). Just wondering, did anyone see me/appreciate the sign? :smile:

South Side
08-09-2004, 11:27 PM
Positivity is good... Although I did almost break my remote when Politte gave up the 2 runs in the 9th, I still have hope. Am I the only one who was not completely devastated by this game? Yeah, Jackson is God-awful, Politte is not capable of pitching 2 innings, and we were outmanaged but... I saw life out there! Actual life. This game should have been over in the 2nd. I think we are still in this... I hope the team realizes just exactly how they got those 7 runs in 6th (minus the 3 run homer)... it was by stringing together some hits! What a great concept! Let that be a lesson to them... It would have been nice to win this... but I don't think we're done yet... at least we didn't lose any ground on the Twins.

RKMeibalane
08-09-2004, 11:28 PM
I've seen a few good bunts this year, but it seems like 99 percent of them came in situations where it caught the other team off guard. In straight up bunt situations, when you KNOW they're gonna bunt, that's when they seem to unleash their worst ones.
Yet another reason why this team needs to be overhauled. Players who can't do the little things have become commonplace on the South Side. By the time next season rolls around, I'd like to see the Sox send someone out there who can lay down bunts in several different situations. They haven't had a player like that since... Tim Raines, probably.

mcfish
08-09-2004, 11:31 PM
Positivity is good... Although I did almost break my remote when Politte gave up the 2 runs in the 9th, I still have hope. Am I the only one who was not completely devastated by this game? Yeah, Jackson is God-awful, Politte is not capable of pitching 2 innings, and we were outmanaged but... I saw life out there! Actual life. This game should have been over in the 2nd. I think we are still in this... I hope the team realizes just exactly how they got those 7 runs in 6th (minus the 3 run homer)... it was by stringing together some hits! What a great concept! Let that be a lesson to them... It would have been nice to win this... but I don't think we're done yet... at least we didn't lose any ground on the Twins.How? How could you possibly have hope? I wanted to have hope before this game, but then they just showed me that they will always find a way to lose. This team has been living off the mistakes of others or making mistakes themselves all season. They haven't been going out there and winning. To go along with the thinking that a team can pick up a game a week, the team actually has to win more than a game a week. Even if by some miracle they do make it to the playoffs, do you really think this team, as it is currently constructed, will be able to win in the playoffs? All I saw today was a team wasting it's one good offensive game for the week on a loss.

Lip Man 1
08-09-2004, 11:33 PM
OEO says: "I think Neal is going to be a star."

In which league OEO? Pioneer, Southern or Carolina?


Lip

the_valenstache
08-09-2004, 11:33 PM
You'd think that turning a blowout into a one-run game is something we might be able to see a positive side to.

If you remember the Kansas City Schoeny Blow Out from last week, at least this game showed that the Sox didn't let the deficit get to their heads. Besides all the crappy pitching and dingbat coaching decisions, I was damn appreciative that they made it a show.

mcfish
08-09-2004, 11:35 PM
You'd think that turning a blowout into a one-run game is something we might be able to see a positive side to.

If you remember the Kansas City Schoeny Blow Out from last week, at least this game showed that the Sox didn't let the deficit get to their heads. Besides all the crappy pitching and dingbat coaching decisions, I was damn appreciative that they made it a show.I thought that when they failed to come back and beat the Yankees and when they failed to come back and beat Montreal. Fool me a third time, well, you know the rest.

RKMeibalane
08-09-2004, 11:35 PM
OEO says: "I think Neal is going to be a star."

In which league OEO? Pioneer, Southern or Carolina?


Lip
The Arizona Fall League.

OEO Magglio
08-09-2004, 11:46 PM
OEO says: "I think Neal is going to be a star."

In which league OEO? Pioneer, Southern or Carolina?


LipJust watch Lip. I honestly believe he'll be a great pitcher in this league.

Mohoney
08-09-2004, 11:50 PM
OK- good call. So instead, we leave Politte in the game, who gives up three runs. Let's forget about the fact that he can only give you one reliable inning.
Follow that up with Mike Jackson who sucks and balks in another run and now the Sox are down 5. Somehow I doubt an "overworked" combination of Shingo and/or Marte would've allowed as many runs. And even if it did, at least we could say they beat our best guys.

Exactly why we need to trade for a bullpen guy. Politte pitched a solid 8th inning. It's too much to ask him to pitch the 9th.

If a trade is not made, then at least bring back Kelly Wunsch. I mean, what exactly did this guy do to get blackballed like this?

RKMeibalane
08-09-2004, 11:52 PM
Exactly why we need to trade for a bullpen guy. Politte pitched a solid 8th inning. It's too much to ask him to pitch the 9th.

If a trade is not made, then at least bring back Kelly Wunsch. I mean, what exactly did this guy do to get blackballed like this?
He egged KW's house.

petekat
08-10-2004, 12:08 AM
ad nauseum- dont want to read through 5 pages but...hell yeah, he must bunt



Hey, baseball genius....Rowand up. 2 on. No one out. He must bunt.

Evman5
08-10-2004, 12:56 AM
This game was exactly the same as the game against Montreal. They are in fact very similar. I recall that in the Montreal game it was Willie Harris who could not put down a bunt in a similar situation. Anyways the comeback was nice, but at this point of the season we need to WIN games. I am sorry, but there is no cateogory for almost wins!!! Maybe the Twins will spot us a game in the standings because they lost and we almost won! Today was a big game and over the pass couple of years this team just doesn't respond well to pressure.

JB98
08-10-2004, 01:15 AM
This game was exactly the same as the game against Montreal. They are in fact very similar. I recall that in the Montreal game it was Willie Harris who could not put down a bunt in a similar situation. Anyways the comeback was nice, but at this point of the season we need to WIN games. I am sorry, but there is no cateogory for almost wins!!! Maybe the Twins will spot us a game in the standings because they lost and we almost won! Today was a big game and over the pass couple of years this team just doesn't respond well to pressure.
Good post. I just got back from the Cell, and I was thinking the whole way home about how moral victories just aren't going to cut it anymore. This was very similar to that Montreal game in that a failed sac bunt killed our momentum. In fact, when Rowand came to the plate, I told my buddy, "We are the worst bunting team in the league. Watch us fail in this obvious bunt situation." Sure enough, that was a disaster. I've argued extensively on this board that we should NEVER bunt again. All we do is foul two pitches off, fall behind in the count and give away an out. You can argue that all MLB hitters should be able to bunt, but the fact is, our guys can't. Why ask them to do something they can't do?

Also, I've been preaching all year about our lack of bullpen depth. It showed up again tonight. Marte and Takatsu can't pitch every day, although they almost have been lately. Somebody else has to step up and keep a one-run deficit a one-run deficit. We'll never know what would have happened if we had held the Tribe in the top of the ninth, because Wickman would have come in instead of White. But I really believe we would have won if we could have kept it 9-8.

As a side note, Diaz disappointed me. He doesn't look like he's ready to help us down the stretch here.

BarbG
08-10-2004, 02:11 AM
I was there tonight too, was wondering why I'm not more upset (and I'm stone cold sober). Maybe because the Indians aren't half the a**holes the Twins are. Or because the crowd was really animated and with them tonight. How sweet it was when, after Ozzie got thrown out, my husband got a text message from his boss at the Cub-Times office that said "SAFE!" The 7-run rally. Willie getting a chance and going 2 for 2. Sandy lining a screamer into right field. Carlos not giving up and slamming a homer in the bottom of the 9th. Everybody playing with some heart, like a team. The little things. 35 years of Sox-fan-dom has taught me to appreciate the little things.

AnkleSox
08-10-2004, 02:47 AM
When i saw mike jackson come in i turned the game off and left. It's possible ozzie was managing from afar after being ejected, but I really don't think he'd be that stupid to put him in right there.

mike squires
08-10-2004, 08:25 AM
agree. I"m not sure I would hve trotted Pollite out there for another inning. At least yank him when he walks the first batter. Shingo and Marte have been worked a lot as of late, but this was a big game...at least I'd like to think it was.

Baby Fisk
08-10-2004, 08:45 AM
Worst. Bullpen. Ever. :angry:

Which is worse:

the Politte Death Grimace (he always looks like someone just tore his lungs out through his back after he's blown a game), or

the Great Jackson Indifference (he walks up to the mound, blows a game, leaves the mound, expression never changes. Does he even ****ing care?)

cubhater
08-10-2004, 08:51 AM
Rowand? Bunt? Are you kidding me? The Sox were doomed when we failed to bring in our best reliever(s) at the end of the game. Doesn't it go that most major league managers don't want to lose the game without bringing their best guy in when they have a chance? Instead, we leave in a never-was and follow that with a washed-up hasbeen to help blow the game for us. The Sox had the momentum going into the 9th, and had we not given up all those runs, probably would've pulled it out. How you leave both Shingo and Marte on the bench is beyond me.
My thoughts exactly. Our pen sucks except for Shingo and Marte. This was another frustrating game added to many this year.

soxtalker
08-10-2004, 09:00 AM
Well, it was good to see Valentin hit those HR's. Barring a miracle turnaround, it would be good to be able to get something for him in a trade to a contender. But he's really been struggling lately. So, maybe this helped his trade value.

Hangar18
08-10-2004, 09:14 AM
HEY! You posted that before the game was over!


Sure, we lost. But strangely I don't feel that bad about this loss.
Me neither. I just laughed. These losses dont bother me anymore. I was
CRUSHED when we let stupid lineups/mismanaged players in bad situations helped us get swept by the hated Evil Corporation up north. I coulnd watch them for a few days. Those 3 games, we couldve pulled ahead of the Twinks, but we didnt, setting up the showdown for when they came here.
Its Jerrys Fault ("what do mean its jerrys fault? hes not playing the game or running the bases") Yes it is. His foolish self-imposed salary cap let guys like Graffanino leave (how many times this year did I wish he was Pinch-hitting instead of Gload or Borchard) or watching Koch blow another game (wishing Foulke was still here) or watching the Middle Relief (hey, theyre cheap at least) of Jackson and Politte hand games back to the opposition (wishing Sullivan and Gordon were still here)

Next year ........ Imagine this offense WITHOUT MAGGLIO ORDONEZ?
omy god are they going to be horrible. Magglio is our Best all around player,
and somehow, this team is going to continue to think they can survive without him. This could be a blessing, though a tough blessing for The Chairman to learn, that he needs Maggs. I see some very hard times
ahead for us. We need a Policy Change, a Radical 180 degree turn in thinking.

Jerrys business model of paying for things as you need them has
failed (wsi members told them this repeatedly last year, they didnt listen)
spectacularly

ma_deuce
08-10-2004, 09:21 AM
:tomatoaward

MikeKreevich
08-10-2004, 09:46 AM
Nard says: "I don't want to see another sac bunt ever again unless it's to manufacture the winning run in late innings. This is the American League.'

And most American League teams have more then three hitters in their lineup. Have you seen what some of the Sox hitters have been doing since the All Star Break?

LipCouldn't agree more. With a man on second and no body out, a bunt might be in order. You can do a search on bunting stats. A runner on first, no outs, has less than a 50 percent chance of scoring after a sacrifice bunt. Our last two managers have brought a bunting mentality. Pitchers bunt. Hitters hit.

Evman5
08-10-2004, 09:48 AM
Good post. I just got back from the Cell, and I was thinking the whole way home about how moral victories just aren't going to cut it anymore. This was very similar to that Montreal game in that a failed sac bunt killed our momentum. In fact, when Rowand came to the plate, I told my buddy, "We are the worst bunting team in the league. Watch us fail in this obvious bunt situation." Sure enough, that was a disaster. I've argued extensively on this board that we should NEVER bunt again. All we do is foul two pitches off, fall behind in the count and give away an out. You can argue that all MLB hitters should be able to bunt, but the fact is, our guys can't. Why ask them to do something they can't do?

Also, I've been preaching all year about our lack of bullpen depth. It showed up again tonight. Marte and Takatsu can't pitch every day, although they almost have been lately. Somebody else has to step up and keep a one-run deficit a one-run deficit. We'll never know what would have happened if we had held the Tribe in the top of the ninth, because Wickman would have come in instead of White. But I really believe we would have won if we could have kept it 9-8.

As a side note, Diaz disappointed me. He doesn't look like he's ready to help us down the stretch here.

It is also funny to me how when other teams are in the same situation they get the bunt down on the first pitch. When we attempt a bunt in a crucial situation, it takes like 4 pitches before we fail. It is actually kind of funny and sad how simple other teams make it look. As I have said all along I think we need to get some solid position players from the national league because they know how to bunch much better, i.e. Timo Perez.

Jerko
08-10-2004, 09:50 AM
It's pretty sad that a team who at one point led the league in offense is probably better off having their pitchers pinch hit when the team is facing an obvious bunting situation. I bet more pitchers had successful sacrifices in NL parks than the normal hitters have had the rest of the year. Percentage wise anyway.