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Sox Mobile
08-09-2004, 12:02 AM
Frank amazes me. I just read the 8/7 ChicagoSports.com interview with Frank.

He completely let KW off the hook for blasting him in the media for not sitting on the bench as a decoy the day before he went on the DL. ( keep out of the dugout decisions KW, stay with the phone stuff and just maybe try to keep your star player from further injury might be a better idea )

If I were Frank, I think I would have been pretty offended by KW's remarks, and probably tempted to retaliate!

Remember the not so flattering remarks Ozzie made about Frank in the off season? Frank shows up for spring training and lets him off the hook too. "That's just Ozzie"

Frank gets accused of being a bad teamate, but seems to me he goes out of his way not to make bad situations worse and always defuses the explosives.

I won't even get into the shoddy back stabbin remarks Valentin has made in the press. But I havent heard about Frank using Jose for a toothpick, so he must let Jose off the hook too.

Of course, Frank gets no credit for any of this. Maybe I missed KW's apology?
NOT!

I can't wait to see you back in your oversized Sox uniform Frank.
You are a big man in more ways than one!!

OurBitchinMinny
08-09-2004, 12:44 AM
What the hell would have been so hard about sitting on the bench and being a decoy? Last I checked sitting never caused anyone to further injure themselves. Frank bitches and moans all the time. He is one of the greatest hitters in sox history, but he isnt the same player he used to be. Maggs is the much greater loss. You lose your best hitter and a solid RF. Both are big losses, but dont make frank out to be a saint. Frank has caused plenty of trouble in the clubhouse. dont forget he was only hitting .270. That may be good out of some people, but I grew up expecting more out of frank. He only hit .250 something last year. I know he gets on base which is good, but he looks to walk to much and I never saw frank look at some many strike 3s as I did the early part of this season. You are trying to make frank look like a victim. Im not gonna shed a tear for him.

pinwheels3530
08-09-2004, 12:50 AM
What the hell would have been so hard about sitting on the bench and being a decoy? Last I checked sitting never caused anyone to further injure themselves. Frank bitches and moans all the time. He is one of the greatest hitters in sox history, but he isnt the same player he used to be. Maggs is the much greater loss. You lose your best hitter and a solid RF. Both are big losses, but dont make frank out to be a saint. Frank has caused plenty of trouble in the clubhouse. dont forget he was only hitting .270. That may be good out of some people, but I grew up expecting more out of frank. He only hit .250 something last year. I know he gets on base which is good, but he looks to walk to much and I never saw frank look at some many strike 3s as I did the early part of this season. You are trying to make frank look like a victim. Im not gonna shed a tear for him.

Once again another Sox fan who doesn't appreciate What The Big Hurt brings to the team, to the offense, the organization, why don't you quit your bitching and get off Franks back. I GREW UP EXPECTING MORE OUT OF FELLOW SOX FANS!!!!!! :tongue:

Vernam
08-09-2004, 01:06 AM
I won't even get into the shoddy back stabbin remarks Valentin has made in the press. But I havent heard about Frank using Jose for a toothpick, so he must let Jose off the hook too.

SM, I tend to agree with you re: Frank's being unfairly criticized. But can you cite the Valentin comments alluded to in your post? I'm curious.

VC

ChiSoxBobette
08-09-2004, 06:45 AM
What the hell would have been so hard about sitting on the bench and being a decoy? Last I checked sitting never caused anyone to further injure themselves. Frank bitches and moans all the time. He is one of the greatest hitters in sox history, but he isnt the same player he used to be. Maggs is the much greater loss. You lose your best hitter and a solid RF. Both are big losses, but dont make frank out to be a saint. Frank has caused plenty of trouble in the clubhouse. dont forget he was only hitting .270. That may be good out of some people, but I grew up expecting more out of frank. He only hit .250 something last year. I know he gets on base which is good, but he looks to walk to much and I never saw frank look at some many strike 3s as I did the early part of this season. You are trying to make frank look like a victim. Im not gonna shed a tear for him.
What the hell good would it have done if he was on the bench, you people who bitch & moan about Frank are idiots. As far as Maggs being a bigger loss all you have to do is see that Frank carried this team without maggs for how long this year as soon as Frank went down we went into the crapper we were in 1st place or 1/2 games out of 1st place while maggs was gone. I think that sentece about him walking to much is pretty dumb , is he supposed to hit a pitchers pitch and make an out so then fans such as you can boo him. As far as Frank being victim he takes more abuse from White Sox fans than any player whos played for this team and all he's done as far as this year before he got hurt(he played on a broken ankle for 6 games)was carry this team while all I've heard about Maggs is he's going somewhere else , ya know what Franks been here how long and back in his MVP years I'm sure he could have gone somewhere else for more money but he stayed here while as soon as Magglio becomes a FA he's running. Also what trouble has Frank as far as this year caused in the clubhouse, geez the guy is the first to give kids autographs and the last guy out on the field signing autographs. So all of you Frank Thomas bashers go cheer sammy sosa thats more your type of player anyway - A PHONEY!

mrwag
08-09-2004, 08:00 AM
When Mags went down, the Sox were still winning. When Frank went down, the Sox totally tanked.

Who's worth more to the team?

Baby Fisk
08-09-2004, 08:04 AM
When Mags went down, the Sox were still winning. When Frank went down, the Sox totally tanked.

Who's worth more to the team?
Ex-ACTLY! :cool:

idseer
08-09-2004, 08:11 AM
personally i think frank has mellowed in his old (er) age. he was always messed up over his contract situation and since that was reworked i think he's a happier man. having said that, we simply never get the full story on the behind the scenes goings-on so it seems a waste to speculate on his reactions to kw et all.
i'm just glad it doesn't seem to be a big problem.

i think frank has been over-rated these last 4 years but magglio has always been over-rated. of course, that's what sox fans do to their stars. but i gotta say that for the money frank has been more valuable to the team when he's been in the game. all i care about now is that he's 100% by spring training.

MarqSox
08-09-2004, 08:11 AM
What the hell good would it have done if he was on the bench, you people who bitch & moan about Frank are idiots. For the record, I'm not bitching about Frank. However, there was merit to that criticism. Who knows how it would have affected the game? Possibly not at all, but possibly immensely. I don't remember the exact lineups and pitchers from that game, but here's a hypothetical:

Right-handed pitcher on the mound, getting tired. Tight ballgame, later innings, runners on first and second. Jose Valentin steps to the plate with two outs. The opposing manager has a choice: Bring in a lefty to face Valentin or let Valentin hit against the righty. Now, if he looks over in that dugout and sees Frank and thinks he can play, there is no way the manager brings in the lefty, because then Frank would pinch hit. However, with Frank not there as a decoy, the other manager has no qualms about bringing in the lefty. Instead of Valentin getting a base hit off the righty, he strikes out against the lefty, game over.

Was that the scenario that game? I doubt it. But it could have been.

Deadguy
08-09-2004, 08:15 AM
Outside of maybe Slownerko, has Thomas ever criticized a current or former teammate? Hypocritical scum bags like Jamie Navarro and David Wells seem to take unfair shots at Thomas, and he ussually just turns the other cheek. It seems like a lot of people dish out at Thomas, and he just absorbs it and lets it affect him, or he simply deflects.

Cruelty can be theraputic though. If you take the high road, and brush it off, you feel like the better person. Hopefully the older Thomas gets, the more he can fuel off the negativity from the detractors, instead of letting it get to him, and readjust his approach to the game.

I'm very disappointed that Thomas is talking to the media again, though. NOTHING good can possibly come from it. Frank needs to give the Albert Belle/Eddie Murray shun to the media for the rest of his career.

Sox Mobile
08-09-2004, 08:16 AM
SM, I tend to agree with you re: Frank's being unfairly criticized. But can you cite the Valentin comments alluded to in your post? I'm curious.

VC
Sorry I cant provide links or exact quotes, but I'm sure there are others who can verify Jose's antics.

The two most recent episodes happened in the off season when Ozzie was first hired and right after Frank went on the DL and KW made his "speech" about Frank not sitting as a decoy.

Jose seems to jump on the bandwagon when he thinks Frank is in trouble. He says things like Frank should forget the name on the back of his jersey and play for the name on the front. He accuses Frank of not being a good team mate but never qualifies his statements, he just throws them out there.

I think they should play sound bites of these interviews before his AB's and let the fans take care of him!

Also, ChiSoxMinny lately loves to say Frank was only hitting .270 when he went on the DL. He was given the info of how Frank was hitting .298 when he hurt in foot in Miami, check out the posts in the thread "Frank, I'll be back" on page 2 I think. But Minny chooses to ignore this information.

Frank is a good guy and for some reason some fans just cant accept this. I travel all over the country with my job and have seen the Sox in alot of AL and NL stadiums.

Frank is ALWAYS the last player off the field before the game starts. After his warm up sprints and stretches, without fail he stops and signs autographs. Likewise, after the games he signs outside the bus after the game.

He is very fan friendly/conscious and does a great job representing the White Sox.

Frater Perdurabo
08-09-2004, 10:43 AM
Thank goodness Frank will return (barring injury complications). Now Kenny can surround Frank with OBP "grinders" yet still upgrade the weak positions. Trade Konerko or Lee to Tampa Bay for Jose Cruz, Jr. The other will play 1B. Sign Frank Catalanotto as a free agent to play LF. He doesn't have power, but he's left handed and gets on base at the top of the order. Get Kenny Lofton, who can play CF until Anderson is ready (2006?). Re-sign Valentin to a cheap deal. Platoon like crazy to take advantage of L/R splits: Lofton/Rowand in CF, Everett/Cruz in RF, Valentin/Uribe at SS, Burke/Davis at C, Alomar/Crede at 3B. Harris can bat ninth to turn the lineup over.

vs RHP: Lofton (CF), Catalanotto (LF), Frank (DH), Everett (RF), Lee/Konerko (1B), Valentin (SS), R. Alomar (3B), Davis (C), Harris (2B).

vs. LHP: Rowand (CF), Catalanotto (LF), Frank (DH), Lee/Konerko (1B), Cruz (RF), Crede (3B), Uribe (SS), Burke (C), Harris (2B).

OF: Lofton, Rowand, Everett, Cruz, Catalanotto
IF: Crede, R. Alomar, Uribe, Valentin, Harris, Lee/Konerko
DH: Frank
C: Burke, Davis, S. Alomar (player-coach)
SP: Buehrle, Garcia, Contreras, Garland, Diaz
RP: Shingo, Marte, Politte, Cotts, Adkins

Print your 2005 playoff tickets now! :bandance:

ChiSoxBobette
08-09-2004, 02:02 PM
Sorry I cant provide links or exact quotes, but I'm sure there are others who can verify Jose's antics.

The two most recent episodes happened in the off season when Ozzie was first hired and right after Frank went on the DL and KW made his "speech" about Frank not sitting as a decoy.

Jose seems to jump on the bandwagon when he thinks Frank is in trouble. He says things like Frank should forget the name on the back of his jersey and play for the name on the front. He accuses Frank of not being a good team mate but never qualifies his statements, he just throws them out there.

I think they should play sound bites of these interviews before his AB's and let the fans take care of him!

Also, ChiSoxMinny lately loves to say Frank was only hitting .270 when he went on the DL. He was given the info of how Frank was hitting .298 when he hurt in foot in Miami, check out the posts in the thread "Frank, I'll be back" on page 2 I think. But Minny chooses to ignore this information.

Frank is a good guy and for some reason some fans just cant accept this. I travel all over the country with my job and have seen the Sox in alot of AL and NL stadiums.

Frank is ALWAYS the last player off the field before the game starts. After his warm up sprints and stretches, without fail he stops and signs autographs. Likewise, after the games he signs outside the bus after the game.

He is very fan friendly/conscious and does a great job representing the White Sox.
Thats exactly what I have been trying to get across to some of these Frank bashers, there are sometimes Frank speaks his mind and is being honest even if its not the thing everyone wants to hear. This year with Ozzie back Frank has been nothing but a team player and for all that time he was carrying this team because Ordonez was hurt. Its funny how every one of these Frank bashers question him being hurt but evryone just sits there and gives Ordonez a pass , its seems Maggs is just worried about how his health is going to affect him being a FA and not how it affects the White Sox. Frank Thomas according to what I've read played on a fractured ankle for 6 games , when he should'nt have, because he wanted to help this team get to the playoffs. If that ankle does'nt heal then this off season he will need to have surgery on it that announcement coming from the White Sox team physician, but of course Frank should be in the dugout as a decoy, how absurd is that. What other team has used one of thier injured star players as a decoy , its just unbeleveable how some Sox fans hate this guy a player who could have gone anywhere a few years ago but stayed with the same team for how long now 13 years. Gee does anyone see Giambi in the Yankee dugout maybe they could use him as a decoy to.

RKMeibalane
08-09-2004, 02:17 PM
Thats exactly what I have been trying to get across to some of these Frank bashers, there are sometimes Frank speaks his mind and is being honest even if its not the thing everyone wants to hear. This year with Ozzie back Frank has been nothing but a team player and for all that time he was carrying this team because Ordonez was hurt. Its funny how every one of these Frank bashers question him being hurt but evryone just sits there and gives Ordonez a pass , its seems Maggs is just worried about how his health is going to affect him being a FA and not how it affects the White Sox. Frank Thomas according to what I've read played on a fractured ankle for 6 games , when he should'nt have, because he wanted to help this team get to the playoffs. If that ankle does'nt heal then this off season he will need to have surgery on it that announcement coming from the White Sox team physician, but of course Frank should be in the dugout as a decoy, how absurd is that. What other team has used one of thier injured star players as a decoy , its just unbeleveable how some Sox fans hate this guy a player who could have gone anywhere a few years ago but stayed with the same team for how long now 13 years. Gee does anyone see Giambi in the Yankee dugout maybe they could use him as a decoy to.
I agree. I'm getting tired of reading the bull**** that the Frank-haters keep spewing out year after year. No matter what Thomas does, they find a reason to complain about him. Last year, it was because he was focusing more on driving the ball. This year, they're pissed because he wasn't able to serve as a "decoy" during a game with the Angels. I wonder what they'll hold over his head next season.

Honestly, I can understand and respect the fact that some people just don't like Frank. That's fine, and perfectly acceptable. There are several players on the current Sox team that I don't like. However, I don't cricitize the players in question for things they've not guilty of. I also don't hold them responsible for things that are out of their control. For example, I don't rip Paul Konerko to shreds because he's slow. To do so would be unfair. He's just not a fast runner. There's nothing more to be said about it.

I don't criticize Willie Harris for not being able to hit home runs. Why? Because he can't. He's not a big man, and he's not well-built for his size. He's not going to drive a ball more than four hundred feet. He doesn't have it in him.

I also don't criticize players who are trying their best, in spite of the fact that they aren't getting results. Example: Sandy Alomar. I don't think anyone here questions the fact that Sandy gives 100% effort every time he puts on his gear. However, I also don't think anyone here will argue the point that he doesn't have much left in the tank. Therefore, it's not fair to blame him for things he can no longer do.

The same is true of Frank. People complain about him not being able to move from first to third on most singles. So what? He's not as fast as he used to be. He's thirty six years old. Even now, when it's obvious that his absence has left this team without a dominant offensive player, people are still looking for things with which to devalue him.

ChisoxfanMinny seems to think that Frank wasn't having that great of a season "because he was only hitting .271 at the time he was injured." Hello! The reason his average dropped was because of the fracture to his navicular bone. Had it not been for the injury, he would have kept on going, and would probably still be around the .300 mark today if he were playing.

Until someone presents me with a legitamite argument as to why Frank Thomas is not a valuable part of this team, I'm not going to accept any of the bull**** the 'haters throw out there. Their behavior is nothing more than a petty attempt to get back at Frank for proving them wrong over and over again.

MarqSox
08-09-2004, 02:21 PM
Frank needs to give the Albert Belle/Eddie Murray shun to the media for the rest of his career.
The more he shuns the media, the more he imperils his likely-but-not-guaranteed shot at the Hall of Fame.

Besides, if he'd just learn to not say dumb things, it wouldn't be an issue. 99% of guys can talk to the media every day and not get in trouble, I don't understand why it's such a problem for Frank. I like the guy, but sheesh, sometimes he needs to get a clue.

RKMeibalane
08-09-2004, 02:27 PM
The more he shuns the media, the more he imperils his likely-but-not-guaranteed shot at the Hall of Fame.

Besides, if he'd just learn to not say dumb things, it wouldn't be an issue. 99% of guys can talk to the media every day and not get in trouble, I don't understand why it's such a problem for Frank. I like the guy, but sheesh, sometimes he needs to get a clue.
I agree with that. There are some people who just can't help but say stupid things in front of a camera. Frank is one of those people, and so it would be better for him if he just avoided talking to them altogether. That said, you're correct in thinking that his refusal to cooperate with the media probably hurts his HOF chances.

It's really a shame that players today seem to be judged more by what they say, rather than what they do on the baseball field. Frank's damned if he does, and damned if he doesn't. I suppose if I had to choose one alternative though, I'd prefer that Frank be damned for who he really is. He's a baseball player, not a public relations tool. As long as he keeps hitting home runs, the media will eventually have to accept his greatness. They can't possibly be stuipid enough not to, can they?

Sox Mobile
08-09-2004, 02:37 PM
Besides the obvious mess Franks absence has created, it HURTs to know he would have been damn close to the 500 HR mark after this season if he hadnt missed most of 2001 and now 2004.

That has to weigh on his mind.

But it is what it is.

RKMeibalane
08-09-2004, 02:56 PM
Besides the obvious mess Franks absence has created, it HURTs to know he would have been damn close to the 500 HR mark after this season if he hadnt missed most of 2001 and now 2004.

That has to weigh on his mind.

But it is what it is.
If he had been able to play a full season in both 2001 and 2004, I have no doubt that he would have eclipsed the 500-mark by now. That said, the chips are going to fall where they may. The only thing Frank can do is come back next season ready to go.

sendimjoey
08-09-2004, 03:15 PM
For the record, I'm not bitching about Frank. However, there was merit to that criticism. Who knows how it would have affected the game? Possibly not at all, but possibly immensely. I don't remember the exact lineups and pitchers from that game, but here's a hypothetical:

Right-handed pitcher on the mound, getting tired. Tight ballgame, later innings, runners on first and second. Jose Valentin steps to the plate with two outs. The opposing manager has a choice: Bring in a lefty to face Valentin or let Valentin hit against the righty. Now, if he looks over in that dugout and sees Frank and thinks he can play, there is no way the manager brings in the lefty, because then Frank would pinch hit. However, with Frank not there as a decoy, the other manager has no qualms about bringing in the lefty. Instead of Valentin getting a base hit off the righty, he strikes out against the lefty, game over.

Was that the scenario that game? I doubt it. But it could have been.
But if the opponent's scouts had seen Thomas play in the last two weeks before he went on the DL, they wouldn't have worred about Thomas at all. It was clear that there was something wrong with him because he was making weak swings at pitches he normally hammers.

And, ChisoxfaninMinny, as has been pointed out to you in this thread (and by me in the thread about Thomas's injury), Thomas was hitting a shade under .300 when he got hurt, with an awesome OBP of .462 and a fantastic slugging percentage of .639 for a 1.101 OPS -- those are MVP-caliber numbers if he had stayed healthy.

Looking at batting average alone is misleading. Is Ichiro worth more than Manny Ramirez because the Mariner has a higher batting average? Of course not.

I like Ordonez a lot, but he's Robin to Thomas's Batman.

Deadguy
08-09-2004, 03:30 PM
The more he shuns the media, the more he imperils his likely-but-not-guaranteed shot at the Hall of Fame.

Besides, if he'd just learn to not say dumb things, it wouldn't be an issue. 99% of guys can talk to the media every day and not get in trouble, I don't understand why it's such a problem for Frank. I like the guy, but sheesh, sometimes he needs to get a clue.
Thomas has talked to the media for most of his career. If a few sportswriters are going to hold it against him for not speaking to the media for the final few years of his career, so be it. There are plenty of sportswriters who are objective enough to look past that. Thomas needs just 75% of the votes to get in. If boycotting the media ends up tarnishing his HOF credibility in the eyes of a few sportswriters, who the hell cares.

Frank is 36 years old now. He hasn't learned how to keep his foot out of his mouth on a consistent basis, and he never will. It's not a question of if Thomas will say something stupid and controversia in the futurel, just when. Thomas has hurt his image, PR, and reputation as a team player far more by opening his mouth than he ever could have had he shunned the media and kept his thoughts to himself, which in turn has hurt his HOF chances far more. I honestly don't give a damn what is on his mind. I just want him to produce. As a slobbering fan boy, I really don't need to hear soundbytes from Thomas about how well he thinks the Sox will do next year, or his opinions on Magglio Ordonez. I really don't understand why you or anyone else would give a damn either way, it's not that important. All I really care about is his production, and that he remains fan friendly. He has always been nice, respectful, and cordia when I have been fortunate enough to meet him, which is more than I can say for other players, and that is all I really care about.

While there are decent sportwriters out there who are objective and respectful, like Scott Merkin, there are plenty of scum bags who are willing to pick a Thomas soundbyte to shreds, in order to order to get something juicy and controversial out of it, even if it is taken out of context. There have been plenty of members of the media who have stabbed Thomas in the back, and that will continue to happen regardless of whether he speaks to the media or not. Keeping his mouth shut just gives them less to work with, and in turn makes their job more difficult, which is a good thing from my viewpoint. I was happy that Thomas wasn't speaking to the media while he was struggling from June 17th onward, since I'm sure he would have made some justifications for his struggles that would have come off as whining or excuse making. It has since come out that Thomas was seriously injured during that time period, and there is really no way any sportswriter or rabid Thomas hater can spin it in someway as to blast Thomas for his drop off.

Thomas does have a bull's eye on his back, expecially from those in the local media. As this ridiculous decoy nonsense proves, it doesn't take much to generate some kind of controversy around Thomas.

Corkinator
08-09-2004, 04:49 PM
It's true that Frank has been his the cause of most of his PR problems, but what stupid things that he has ever said been in the direction of another teammate? None that I can think of. He certainly could have considering the **** he's had to take from some teammates who would have no chance of being on a winner without him. What's worse is the crap we keep reading from idiot fans who bash the best player I've seen in a Sox in my 48 years. And I have seen a few pretty good ones. He's paid his dues. Give him break and enjoy him while he is still around.

Blob
08-09-2004, 04:51 PM
What would hvae been the poin to open this can of worms again? It's best that Frank just dropped it.

sendimjoey
08-10-2004, 12:23 AM
It's true that Frank has been his the cause of most of his PR problems, but what stupid things that he has ever said been in the direction of another teammate? None that I can think of. He certainly could have considering the **** he's had to take from some teammates who would have no chance of being on a winner without him. What's worse is the crap we keep reading from idiot fans who bash the best player I've seen in a Sox in my 48 years. And I have seen a few pretty good ones. He's paid his dues. Give him break and enjoy him while he is still around.

Great post.