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DoggPhood
08-08-2004, 08:24 PM
I like Jamie, but with the way Davis has been playing lately, this had to be done.

misty60481
08-08-2004, 08:26 PM
He should be called up when they expand the roster, he did a good job while here

Gimm
08-08-2004, 08:30 PM
Jaime Burke was smoking LHP with us this year.

Outside Lee, Konerko and Rowand, nobody in our line-up can hit lefties in 2004.

How the **** do you send a solid defensive catcher who hits southpaws and is at shutting down the running game down.....while worthless Mike Jackson is taking up the roster spot?

AddisonStSox
08-08-2004, 08:32 PM
Jamie showed a lot of heart while up here this year and I think we will see more of him this year and hopefully for years to come. Why didn't we send down Valentine?

Daver
08-08-2004, 08:33 PM
Why didn't we send down Valentine?
There is no one on the roster named Valentine.

AddisonStSox
08-08-2004, 08:36 PM
There is no one on the roster named Valentine.
The extra E is for error, as in E-6:wink:

Soxzilla
08-08-2004, 08:36 PM
It should have been borchard that got sent down.

Apparently we are rewarding players for playing like crap.:rolleyes:

Gimm
08-08-2004, 08:43 PM
The extra E is for error, as in E-6:wink:Then the correct pronunciation would be Valentinera - the extra 'R' stands for tremendeous range and the extra 'A' - for a strong arm and aggressive decision-making.

:wink: bakatcha.

mrwag
08-08-2004, 08:45 PM
It should have been borchard that got sent down.

Apparently we are rewarding players for playing like crap.:rolleyes:Why don't we send the whole friggin' team down then?

DrCrawdad
08-08-2004, 08:47 PM
I like Jamie, but with the way Davis has been playing lately, this had to be done.

I'm expecting a great start out of Diaz tomorrow.

DVsoxfan
08-08-2004, 08:51 PM
It should have been borchard that got sent down.

Apparently we are rewarding players for playing like crap.:rolleyes:
Borch has proved nothing since he's been brought up. Nothing except that he cant hit when the pressures on (i.e. today struck out in 8th w/ runners on. if he gets single, Damaso doesnt give up game tying homer etc.), he cant field for beans. he's dead weight. Why did they pinch hit him for Everett today? I'll miss JB.

AddisonStSox
08-08-2004, 08:56 PM
Then the correct pronunciation would be Valentinera - the extra 'R' stands for tremendeous range and the extra 'A' - for a strong arm and aggressive decision-making.

:wink: bakatcha.
Sure

dcb33
08-08-2004, 08:59 PM
Then the correct pronunciation would be Valentinera - the extra 'R' stands for tremendeous range and the extra 'A' - for a strong arm and aggressive decision-making.

:wink: bakatcha.
As long as you're cooking up some alphabet soup, why not add a 'K' at the end of that considering he's king of the inopportune strikeout...

Gimm
08-08-2004, 09:02 PM
I'm expecting a great start out of Diaz tomorrow.
He better be at his best because this Cleveland squad crushes mistake - as Esteban found out in the 5th inning back in June.

bafiarocks03
08-08-2004, 09:04 PM
Thats not good...i liked jamie Burke!!!

jordan23ventura
08-08-2004, 09:14 PM
Jaime Burke was smoking LHP with us this year.

Outside Lee, Konerko and Rowand, nobody in our line-up can hit lefties in 2004.

How the **** do you send a solid defensive catcher who hits southpaws and is at shutting down the running game down.....while worthless Mike Jackson is taking up the roster spot?
Not to mention that he took that hit from Hunter like a man and didn't whine about his teammates not backing him up. On top of that, he even had a conversation w/ Torii afterwards to basically say that there's no hard feelings. He's spent years at the minor league level and been solid since he's come up. Hopefully he's back up soon.

On a related note, why is Borchard still here? Either the Sox should say "screw it" and play Willie and Borch at the ML level or try to catch back up by putting the best team on the field. By Ozzie stating that Robbie is the starting 2B now, they are basically saying, "we want to continue to give Borchard ML at bats so he can hopefully develop, but not Willie."

LongLiveFisk
08-08-2004, 09:15 PM
Borch has proved nothing since he's been brought up. Nothing except that he cant hit when the pressures on (i.e. today struck out in 8th w/ runners on. if he gets single, Damaso doesnt give up game tying homer etc.), he cant field for beans. he's dead weight. Why did they pinch hit him for Everett today? I'll miss JB.
You'll miss JB? Joe Borchard? Oh wait...you mean Jamie Burke! :tongue:

Wealz
08-08-2004, 09:19 PM
This is just stupid and smacks of cronyism. Sandy Alomar should have been released or at the very least DL'd

dcb33
08-08-2004, 09:20 PM
Thats not good...i liked jamie Burke!!!Give me a break... Ben Davis has stepped up and done the job. The least you could do is take the picture of Loaiza off your signature considering the job Contreras did today. I think you'd criticize management no matter what they do- I'm sure if the Sox traded Joe Borchard for Alex Rodriguez you'd probably put Borchard's pitcure up in your signature....

Daver
08-08-2004, 09:20 PM
This is just stupid and smacks of cronyism. Sandy Alomar should have been released or at the very least DL'd
Sandy Alomar calls all the games, he is needed on the bench.

Wealz
08-08-2004, 09:22 PM
Sandy Alomar calls all the games, he is needed on the bench.
If true, make him a coach then.

pinwheels3530
08-08-2004, 09:23 PM
Good luck Felix tomorrow, BEAT THE TRIBE!!!!!

OEO Magglio
08-08-2004, 09:37 PM
I like the fact that this basically makes Ben the fulltime catcher, I do however think Jamie is a great backup catcher and shouldn't have been sent down but that's jmo.

soxtalker
08-08-2004, 09:48 PM
Before we get all excited about this, I wonder if this isn't just another one-day demotion to the minor leagues. They have to send someone down, and there are only a few guys on the roster that can do this. They probably decided that Ben was going to catch Diaz (for whatever reason -- switch-hitting ability, fluency in Spanish, etc.), and that they can make do with two catchers for one game.

Aidan
08-08-2004, 10:00 PM
I like the fact that this basically makes Ben the fulltime catcher, I do however think Jamie is a great backup catcher and shouldn't have been sent down but that's jmo.Agreed. I like that Ben Davis is now our starting catcher but I will miss Jamie Burke because he was great with limited at bats. He's like the guy who's always in the minors and finally gets a shot and succeeds. Too bad we didn't just waive Mike Jackson. :whiner: I do understand why Sandy Alomar is our backup. Daver is right, he calls games from the bench and is a great veteran presence.
Before we get all excited about this, I wonder if this isn't just another one-day demotion to the minor leagues. They have to send someone down, and there are only a few guys on the roster that can do this. They probably decided that Ben was going to catch Diaz (for whatever reason -- switch-hitting ability, fluency in Spanish, etc.), and that they can make do with two catchers for one game.Could be. I also think you are right about Davis' switch-hitting ability and fluency in Spanish being one of the main reasons he is an asset to our team. Freddy Garcia barely speaks any english and Contreras doesn't speak english at all.

nitetrain8601
08-08-2004, 10:07 PM
Give me a break... Ben Davis has stepped up and done the job. The least you could do is take the picture of Loaiza off your signature considering the job Contreras did today. I think you'd criticize management no matter what they do- I'm sure if the Sox traded Joe Borchard for Alex Rodriguez you'd probably put Borchard's pitcure up in your signature....
Leave the girl alone. She's just a fan of the Sox. I could understand why she wanted Jaime Burke. He was a great backup catcher. Don't deny that. Joe Borchard should've been gone.

Aidan
08-08-2004, 10:18 PM
Leave the girl alone. She's just a fan of the Sox. I could understand why she wanted Jaime Burke. He was a great backup catcher. Don't deny that. Joe Borchard should've been gone.I can see why Borchard wasn't sent down. Ben Davis has been hot and we need another "power bat" in the lineup so Borchard stays. I think we could get by putting Willie in CF and Rowand in RF but apparently Ozzie doesn't think so. Timo is a good bat off the bench but he isn't a consistent everyday player. I guess Ozzie is hoping that Borchard starts to hit. He may be waiting for awhile. :rolleyes:

Wealz
08-08-2004, 10:21 PM
Before we get all excited about this, I wonder if this isn't just another one-day demotion to the minor leagues. They have to send someone down, and there are only a few guys on the roster that can do this. They probably decided that Ben was going to catch Diaz (for whatever reason -- switch-hitting ability, fluency in Spanish, etc.), and that they can make do with two catchers for one game.
Unless somebody goes on the DL Burke has to stay down for something like 10 days before being recalled.

I'd love to hear Williams explain why S. Alomar has a spot on the roster and Burke doesn't. Good GM's don't make moves like this.

Gimm
08-08-2004, 10:24 PM
Does Diaz really throw mid-90's heat, or is it scouting report BS? I don't remember him topping 92 when he was brought up earlier in the year.

Gimm
08-08-2004, 10:29 PM
.I guess Ozzie is hoping that Borchard starts to hit.
And how will he do that exactly? The Stiff's bat is slow, and he can't seem to cut down on the swing and/or recognize the pitch earlier than others, which is the only way a hitter can compensate for lack of quickness.

soxtalker
08-08-2004, 10:29 PM
...Joe Borchard should've been gone.
I know that this is a popular and much-repeated refrain on WSI right now, but I disagree. Borchard needs lots of playing time right now -- both for the team to evaluate him and, hopefully, to give him a chance to work out of his hitting problems. He's only had 50 AB this year in the major leagues, which is about the same number that Ben had before he began hitting. Walker is working with Borchard; give him a chance. Note that Ozzie brought him in today in the 7th or 8th to replace Everett (switching Timo from right to left). That occurred shortly after it appeared that Everett misplayed (or didn't try very hard to get) a ball that ended up over his head. So, I'm guessing that they do have confidence in Borchard's defense.

(One interesting anecdote. It looked to me like Borchard was one of the first guys to come up to Ben Davis to congratulate him after the game-winning hit today.)

Don't take this as a criticism of Burke. As I said in my earlier message, I bet he'll be back in short order. Sure it is a pain for him to go to the minors, but he probably would have just sat on the bench for a day.

nitetrain8601
08-08-2004, 10:34 PM
I know that this is a popular and much-repeated refrain on WSI right now, but I disagree. Borchard needs lots of playing time right now -- both for the team to evaluate him and, hopefully, to give him a chance to work out of his hitting problems. He's only had 50 AB this year in the major leagues, which is about the same number that Ben had before he began hitting. Walker is working with Borchard; give him a chance. Note that Ozzie brought him in today in the 7th or 8th to replace Everett (switching Timo from right to left). That occurred shortly after it appeared that Everett misplayed (or didn't try very hard to get) a ball that ended up over his head. So, I'm guessing that they do have confidence in Borchard's defense.

(One interesting anecdote. It looked to me like Borchard was one of the first guys to come up to Ben Davis to congratulate him after the game-winning hit today.)

Don't take this as a criticism of Burke. As I said in my earlier message, I bet he'll be back in short order. Sure it is a pain for him to go to the minors, but he probably would have just sat on the bench for a day.
I think Greg Walker has done all he can with this guy. Let's remember, we're only 4 1/2 games out of the playoffs. If I'm Ozzie, I'm trying to win every game I possibly can. Borchard hasn't helped at all and has shown nothing.

dcb33
08-08-2004, 10:38 PM
Leave the girl alone. She's just a fan of the Sox. I could understand why she wanted Jaime Burke. He was a great backup catcher. Don't deny that. Joe Borchard should've been gone.
I don't want Joe Borchard or Jamie Burke on this team... the simple fact that we are having this argument explains why the Sox are 6 games behind the Twins...

Gimm
08-08-2004, 10:47 PM
I know that this is a popular and much-repeated refrain on WSI right now, but I disagree. Borchard needs lots of playing time right now -- both for the team to evaluate him and, hopefully, to give him a chance to work out of his hitting problems. He's only had 50 AB this year in the major leagues, which is about the same number that Ben had before he began hitting. Walker is working with Borchard; give him a chance. Note that Ozzie brought him in today in the 7th or 8th to replace Everett (switching Timo from right to left). That occurred shortly after it appeared that Everett misplayed (or didn't try very hard to get) a ball that ended up over his head. So, I'm guessing that they do have confidence in Borchard's defense.

(One interesting anecdote. It looked to me like Borchard was one of the first guys to come up to Ben Davis to congratulate him after the game-winning hit today.)

Don't take this as a criticism of Burke. As I said in my earlier message, I bet he'll be back in short order. Sure it is a pain for him to go to the minors, but he probably would have just sat on the bench for a day.
Look, it's simple: if you want to win, you don't start Borchard/Timo in RF - you go out and get a big-time OF to make a run at the Twinkies.

I could care less about Borchard's confidence. He is overmatched and highly unproductive. I don't want to see him until 2005 ST.

OurBitchinMinny
08-08-2004, 11:05 PM
Then the correct pronunciation would be Valentinera - the extra 'R' stands for tremendeous range and the extra 'A' - for a strong arm and aggressive decision-making.

:wink: bakatcha.
are you high? You have to add an extra letter for "is hitting .220"

OurBitchinMinny
08-08-2004, 11:07 PM
Get it through your heads borchard fans. The man is simply overmatched in the major leagues. I know he is trying, but he sucks. Bottom line. I have no idea why burke was sent down. Burke and davis should be the catchers. Alomar is just too damn old

Gimm
08-08-2004, 11:41 PM
Does Diaz really throw mid-90's heat, or is it scouting report BS? I don't remember him topping 92 when he was brought up earlier in the year.
Well? Anybody?

HomeFish
08-09-2004, 12:00 AM
Well? Anybody?

I remember him throwing a 90 mph changeup. So either his fastball is fast or his change doesn't change.

Gimm
08-09-2004, 12:15 AM
I remember him throwing a 90 mph changeup. So either his fastball is fast or his change doesn't change.
Huh?

JB98
08-09-2004, 12:24 AM
I remember him throwing a 90 mph changeup. So either his fastball is fast or his change doesn't change.
That doesn't make sense. Felix's fastball is 88-91. He throws his change about 78-80, and that is his best offspeed pitch.

I didn't read any scouting reports. That's just what I recall from what I saw from him during his previous call-ups. I think he has an opportunity to earn a permanent spot in the rotation, given Schoeneweis' struggles and injury woes. I, for one, am really hoping Diaz steps up and fills that fifth-starter position.

TimoPerez
08-09-2004, 12:30 AM
I'm not sure if you guys have realized it yet, but for the past couple of weeks it has been a platoon between Timo and Borchard. Even if they face two lefties in two consecutive games, Borchard has been starting both.

Gimm
08-09-2004, 12:37 AM
That doesn't make sense. Felix's fastball is 88-91. He throws his change about 78-80, and that is his best offspeed pitch.

That's not what scouting reports said when we acquired him in 2002. That's not what BA said. That's not what our resident scouts claimed in another thread a few days ago.

And yes, 89-91 is what I remember him throwing. 93-95 is what I wanted him to throw - no, what he NEEDED to throw in order to make his slider and change unhittable.

As is the case with most Sox prospects, the velocity disparity is unsettling. Diaz throws 95 like Munoz throws 91.

JB98
08-09-2004, 12:48 AM
That's not what scouting reports said when we acquired him in 2002. That's not what BA said. That's not what our resident scouts claimed in another thread a few days ago.

And yes, 89-91 is what I remember him throwing. 93-95 is what I wanted him to throw - no, what he NEEDED to throw in order to make his slider and change unhittable.

As is the case with most Sox prospects, the velocity disparity is unsettling. Diaz throws 95 like Munoz throws 91.
Keith Foulke had an unhittable change, and his fastball was only 89-91. I'm not suggesting that Diaz is Foulke, but I don't think Diaz needs to throw 93-95 to be effective. He needs to locate his fastball, get ahead of hitters, and work down in the zone with his offspeed stuff regardless of how hard he's throwing. That's what he did when he beat the Cubs.

DMarte708
08-09-2004, 01:01 AM
He needs to locate his fastball, get ahead of hitters, and work down in the zone with his offspeed stuff regardless of how hard he's throwing. That's what he did when he beat the Cubs.Sounds like Don Cooper talking about Billy Kochs' drop in velocity. Sure, if you locate a fastball and work ahead of hitters you'll earn outs, buts its a HELL of a lot easier with a 95 mph fastball. He's not going to blow his 90 mph heat by anyone unless hitters are caught in between his changeup/slider.

OEO Magglio
08-09-2004, 01:02 AM
Sounds like Don Cooper talking about Billy Kochs' drop in velocity. Sure, if you locate a fastball and work ahead of hitters you'll earn outs, buts its a HELL of a lot easier with a 95 mph fastball. He's not going to blow his 90 mph heat by anyone unless hitters are caught in between his changeup/slider.Diaz knows how to pitch. Koch never did and never will.

BainesHOF
08-09-2004, 01:36 AM
As a move, it's minor. As a message to a player and the team, it's awful. Burke has not only earned his spot on the major-league roster, but he's earned more playing time. We're struggling offensively, and we send down a player who's batting .356? I'm a little leery of Burke's lack of power, but he does have six doubles in limited duty. And he's looked pretty good behind the plate.

Sandy Alomar is no longer a major-league player. It's a joke that Burke was sent down. If Carlton Fisk can be let go during a road trip in the middle of the season, then Alomar can be cut now. My hope is that the only reason Alomar is still on the roster is that they want him to ride out the year so he can be named one of our coaches next season. If that's the case, then I can understand it, though we're still in the hunt and should be doing everything we can to give ourself the best chance to pull out the division. Playing Alomar is not the way to go about that.

Burke is one of the few players who, relatively speaking, has had a good year. There's a lot of other players who deserved to be sent down based on performance. With all the players playing bad baseball, Burke is the guy to send down? No way.

Why is Michael Jackson still on the roster?

I'd like to see Crede sent down to perhaps wake him up to trying to adjust his swing once in a blue moon.

Borchard has not earned his pinstripes.

rmusacch
08-09-2004, 06:54 AM
It should have been borchard that got sent down.

Apparently we are rewarding players for playing like crap.:rolleyes:
Why does Sandy Alomar continue to take up a roster space on this team?

JRIG
08-09-2004, 07:14 AM
Why does Sandy Alomar continue to take up a roster space on this team?
I've said this before and I'll say it again. Sandy Alomar should have been hired as the bench coach instead of Harold Baines. If he's that valuable to the pitching staff it's the perfect spot for him. Instead he continues to waste a roster spot.

mcfish
08-09-2004, 09:51 AM
Unless somebody goes on the DL Burke has to stay down for something like 10 days before being recalled.

I'd love to hear Williams explain why S. Alomar has a spot on the roster and Burke doesn't. Good GM's don't make moves like this.Do you think the Sox really need to crap on the end of the career of another great catcher? I would have hoped they learned their lesson with Fisk, but apparently they should be screwing over Alomar in the same way.

Flight #24
08-09-2004, 10:25 AM
As a move, it's minor. As a message to a player and the team, it's awful. Burke has not only earned his spot on the major-league roster, but he's earned more playing time. We're struggling offensively, and we send down a player who's batting .356? I'm a little leery of Burke's lack of power, but he does have six doubles in limited duty. And he's looked pretty good behind the plate.

Sandy Alomar is no longer a major-league player. It's a joke that Burke was sent down. If Carlton Fisk can be let go during a road trip in the middle of the season, then Alomar can be cut now. My hope is that the only reason Alomar is still on the roster is that they want him to ride out the year so he can be named one of our coaches next season. If that's the case, then I can understand it, though we're still in the hunt and should be doing everything we can to give ourself the best chance to pull out the division. Playing Alomar is not the way to go about that.

Burke is one of the few players who, relatively speaking, has had a good year. There's a lot of other players who deserved to be sent down based on performance. With all the players playing bad baseball, Burke is the guy to send down? No way.

Why is Michael Jackson still on the roster?

I'd like to see Crede sent down to perhaps wake him up to trying to adjust his swing once in a blue moon.

Borchard has not earned his pinstripes.
I'm not sure I see the problem here. First off: you can't send down Mike Jackson because that woudl leave your 'pen short (remember, we lost a pitcher when we DL'd Shoney and repalced him with Alomar). Even tho Jackson sucks, you need him or another pitcher on the staff a lot more than you need Jamie Burke for the 2 times he'd catch this week.

As for Burke v. Alomar, again - Sandy would likely catch once this week, and is needed on the team for his coaching ability. I'd agree that they should make him a coach, but unless the guy's ready to retire, you either have to let him go, or use the roster spot. Personally, I think the value he adds as a coach outweighs the roster spot, so I'd rather keep him than cut him.

Jamie and the team were very likely told that he'll be back up ASAP, but that with the various injuries, the team needed to have the 2 catchers. I'm sure that Sandy's proven his worth in the clubhouse, so I dont' think this is a bad message to the team - they've all been around long enough to understand that sometimes you make moves even when guys play well.

It's really not that big of a deal.

Wealz
08-09-2004, 10:46 AM
Do you think the Sox really need to crap on the end of the career of another great catcher? I would have hoped they learned their lesson with Fisk, but apparently they should be screwing over Alomar in the same way.
Very funny.

Huisj
08-09-2004, 10:51 AM
Do you think the Sox really need to crap on the end of the career of another great catcher? I would have hoped they learned their lesson with Fisk, but apparently they should be screwing over Alomar in the same way.
two wrongs don't make a right, they do make the sox organization what they are.

mcfish
08-09-2004, 11:02 AM
two wrongs don't make a right, they do make the sox organization what they are.I would hope that there aren't two wrongs made in this case, and it looks so far like there won't be, despite the best efforts of some fans. It will never cease to amaze me how badly the Sox treated Fisk at the end, and while Sandy Alomar wasn't on the team as long, nor did he give his best playing years to this team, I would be very offended if the Sox were to do the same to him. Not because he's better or I like him more, because I don't, but because it would show me that either the Sox didn't learn their lesson or they don't think they did anything wrong - and either of those alternatives would show ignorance and cold-heartedness.

Wealz
08-09-2004, 11:03 AM
I'm not sure I see the problem here. First off: you can't send down Mike Jackson because that woudl leave your 'pen short (remember, we lost a pitcher when we DL'd Shoney and repalced him with Alomar). Even tho Jackson sucks, you need him or another pitcher on the staff a lot more than you need Jamie Burke for the 2 times he'd catch this week.

As for Burke v. Alomar, again - Sandy would likely catch once this week, and is needed on the team for his coaching ability. I'd agree that they should make him a coach, but unless the guy's ready to retire, you either have to let him go, or use the roster spot. Personally, I think the value he adds as a coach outweighs the roster spot, so I'd rather keep him than cut him.

Jamie and the team were very likely told that he'll be back up ASAP, but that with the various injuries, the team needed to have the 2 catchers. I'm sure that Sandy's proven his worth in the clubhouse, so I dont' think this is a bad message to the team - they've all been around long enough to understand that sometimes you make moves even when guys play well.

It's really not that big of a deal.
If you're a crony of Ozzie or Kenny it's music to your ears.

At this point in his career, there's nothing Alomar does better than Burke, so who does Kenny keep? Alomar of course. Insane.

Wealz
08-09-2004, 11:04 AM
I would hope that there aren't two wrongs made in this case, and it looks so far like there won't be, despite the best efforts of some fans. It will never cease to amaze me how badly the Sox treated Fisk at the end, and while Sandy Alomar wasn't on the team as long, nor did he give his best playing years to this team, I would be very offended if the Sox were to do the same to him. Not because he's better or I like him more, because I don't, but because it would show me that either the Sox didn't learn their lesson or they don't think they did anything wrong - and either of those alternatives would show ignorance and cold-heartedness.
Best troll post ever.

Gimm
08-09-2004, 11:06 AM
Diaz knows how to pitch. Koch never did and never will.Diaz has an 8.00 ERA in the majors. He, in fact, does NOT know how to pitch.....until proven otherwise.

What I want to know is how can it be that our prospects lose 2-3 mph off their fastball (even on generous FOX radar guns) when they make the transition? I am sick of hearing someone has a 92-95 mph fastball when in fact they throw 89-92.

Having said that, I will gladly take a 6 inn, 4 hits, 1 run, 0 BB, 7 K outing from Diaz tonight.

sendimjoey
08-09-2004, 11:08 AM
And yes, 89-91 is what I remember him throwing. 93-95 is what I wanted him to throw - no, what he NEEDED to throw in order to make his slider and change unhittable.
Did you happen to catch the Cubs-Giants game Sunday night? That kid who pitched for the Giants -- I think his name is Noah Lowery, too lazy to look it up -- probably hit no higher than 90 on the gun, but his changing of speeds had the Cubs (especially the Big Phony) completely befuddled. His defense gave away the third run the Cubs scored. He had exceptional control -- I think he threw 60 pitches for strikes out of about 80 pitches.

My point is that Diaz can be successful. I'd like it if he threw mid-90s heat, too, but it's not his stuff that's the problem, it's failing to throw strikes that has gotten him into trouble. Then he has to come with a fat one.

And I wish Sandy Alomar would agree to be a coach. I'd love to have him around the team and still be able to have a Davis/Burke catching platoon.

mcfish
08-09-2004, 11:11 AM
Best troll post ever.Are you kidding me? Wow. I don't even know what to say. Looking at the roster, even without thinking about Alomar as a great player who will probably be a coach in the system for years to come - unless they embarrass him by releasing him for no reason, I would choose Mike Jackson as the player to be canned. Releasing the man who does all of the work calling all of the games would mean that someone else would have to do it.

On top of that, what was troll-like about that post at all? That I think Sandy Alomar, Jr. had a great career? That I dared compare him to Fisk, even though I said that I don't think he was as good, they are just in comparable situations? You just didn't want to respond intelligently?

Wealz
08-09-2004, 11:12 AM
Did you happen to catch the Cubs-Giants game Sunday night? That kid who pitched for the Giants -- I think his name is Noah Lowery, too lazy to look it up -- probably hit no higher than 90 on the gun, but his changing of speeds had the Cubs (especially the Big Phony) completely befuddled. His defense gave away the third run the Cubs scored. He had exceptional control -- I think he threw 60 pitches for strikes out of about 80 pitches.

My point is that Diaz can be successful. I'd like it if he threw mid-90s heat, too, but it's not his stuff that's the problem, it's failing to throw strikes that has gotten him into trouble. Then he has to come with a fat one.

And I wish Sandy Alomar would agree to be a coach. I'd love to have him around the team and still be able to have a Davis/Burke catching platoon.
Lowry is a left-hander. Successful finnesse right-handers are much fewer and farther between for whatever reason.

Flight #24
08-09-2004, 11:14 AM
If you're a crony of Ozzie or Kenny it's music to your ears.

At this point in his career, there's nothing Alomar does better than Burke, so who does Kenny keep? Alomar of course. Insane.
Since apparently Alomar calls the games that Burke catches, there does seem to be something that he does better. Personally, I'd rather have the guy available who calls allof the games than the guy who'll play in what - 2 of them? And that's from a guy who likes & values Jamie Burke's contribution.

Would I rather ahve both with Alomar as a coach - sure. But if he wants to continue playing, that's not an option. And I'd rather have him around to call games & work with pitchers and have to live with temporarily sending Burke down than the other way around.

And I continue to be befuddled by why losing 2 games of Jamie Burke catching (if it's even that much) is cause for any significant emotion or valuation of the management & coaching staff.

Gimm
08-09-2004, 11:24 AM
Did you happen to catch the Cubs-Giants game Sunday night? That kid who pitched for the Giants -- I think his name is Noah Lowery, too lazy to look it up -- probably hit no higher than 90 on the gun, but his changing of speeds had the Cubs (especially the Big Phony) completely befuddled. His defense gave away the third run the Cubs scored. He had exceptional control -- I think he threw 60 pitches for strikes out of about 80 pitches.

My point is that Diaz can be successful. I'd like it if he threw mid-90s heat, too, but it's not his stuff that's the problem, it's failing to throw strikes that has gotten him into trouble. Then he has to come with a fat one.

And I wish Sandy Alomar would agree to be a coach. I'd love to have him around the team and still be able to have a Davis/Burke catching platoon.
Jesus Christ, we've been over this before with Danny Wright, James Baldwin, Billy Koch, Jon Rauch, Munoz, Esteban Loaiza, etc.

Exceptions are exceptions, and Diaz is not an exception. He will NOT dominate major league hitters as a finesse pitcher. Just ask Ray Ordonez.

Without a pinpoint control and a very deceptive delivery, you need velocity/movement to set up location and off-speed stuff. The difference between 91 mph and 95 is huge when it comes to how a hitter reacts.

Diaz has a nice slider and a quality change-up. Pretty good control. The only thing that is missing here is a 93-95 mph fastball.

mcfish
08-09-2004, 11:27 AM
And I continue to be befuddled by why losing 2 games of Jamie Burke catching (if it's even that much) is cause for any significant emotion or valuation of the management & coaching staff.Especially since at this point I would assume they are evaluating the possibility of Ben Davis as a permanent catching solution. Giving him 10 days of being the teams #1 catcher without question might show whether he can handle it effectively or now. I have been very impressed with his play so far - his first few games might as well have been spring training for him, and he has played pretty darn well since then.

mcfish
08-09-2004, 11:32 AM
Jesus Christ, we've been over this before with Danny Wright, James Baldwin, Billy Koch, Jon Rauch, Munoz, Esteban Loaiza, etc. Why doesn't Arnie get his first name in there?

I like watching Diaz pitch, and I hope he can prove you wrong. I'm not saying your evidence is incorrect, I personally just like Diaz for some reason and from what I've seen of him, I'm hoping he can keep it together and become an effective lower end of the rotation starter.

Flight #24
08-09-2004, 11:33 AM
Exceptions are exceptions, and Diaz is not an exception. He will NOT dominate major league hitters as a finesse pitcher. Just ask Ray Ordonez.

Without a pinpoint control and a very deceptive delivery, you need velocity/movement to set up location and off-speed stuff. The difference between 91 mph and 95 is huge when it comes to how a hitter reacts.

Diaz has a nice slider and a quality change-up. Pretty good control. The only thing that is missing here is a 93-95 mph fastball.
How about we give the guy a couple of starts before closing the book on his major league career? The guy's got a TOTAL of 4 major league starts, one pretty good one, and a couple of terrible ones. (the 2d Cubs start being somewhere in the middle). That doesn't really seem like enough to judge the guy's long term potential on. He's put up a WHIP of 1.02 in 109AAA IP this year (only 20BB in 109 IP to go against 90 Ks). That looks like pretty awesome control to me, let's ee how he pitches now that he's likely to get settled in as the 5th guy for a bit rather than running the AAA yoyo.

Gimm
08-09-2004, 11:41 AM
Why doesn't Arnie get his first name in there?

I like watching Diaz pitch, and I hope he can prove you wrong. I'm not saying your evidence is incorrect, I personally just like Diaz for some reason and from what I've seen of him, I'm hoping he can keep it together and become an effective lower end of the rotation starter.
Oh no no, we're 6 games back with 54 to go.

6 inn/4 run type outings aren't gonna get it done anymore, even from a 5th starter - it's not as if we're 2003 Red Sox offensive juggernaut here.

Sorry, I wasn't clear on that. My expectations of Diaz are quite high, and a 93-95 mph fastball would be just what the doctor ordered. :bandance:

Gimm
08-09-2004, 11:44 AM
How about we give the guy a couple of starts before closing the book on his major league career? .
How about he come through with a couple of dominant (hell, I'll settle for very good) outings on the ML level....before we open said book.

Like I said, 6 inn, 4 hits, 1 run, 0 walks, 7 K's from him tonight is what the team needs. Hopefully Harden beats Lohse today as well.

Flight #24
08-09-2004, 11:54 AM
How about he come through with a couple of dominant (hell, I'll settle for very good) outings on the ML level....before we open said book.

Like I said, 6 inn, 4 hits, 1 run, 0 walks, 7 K's from him tonight is what the team needs. Hopefully Harden beats Lohse today as well.
Wow - you're tough. Not many solid major league pitchers would have passed your test to have a couple of dominant starts in their first 4-5. Given his AAA success, and having had one quality start at the big league leve, I'd be inclined to give him at least 2-3 before making any determination on him.

Wealz
08-09-2004, 11:55 AM
Since apparently Alomar calls the games that Burke catches, there does seem to be something that he does better. Personally, I'd rather have the guy available who calls allof the games than the guy who'll play in what - 2 of them? And that's from a guy who likes & values Jamie Burke's contribution.
DL him then, he could still call the games from the bench. Also, is Alomar indespensible calling games? Judging from results, I don't know . . .

And I continue to be befuddled by why losing 2 games of Jamie Burke catching (if it's even that much) is cause for any significant emotion or valuation of the management & coaching staff.
I'm troubled by the reasoning behind the decision. Why are they keeping the lesser player? Also, why is Mike Jackson still on the team? What role is cronyism playing with the 24th and 25th roster spots?

mcfish
08-09-2004, 11:55 AM
How about he come through with a couple of dominant (hell, I'll settle for very good) outings on the ML level....before we open said book.

Like I said, 6 inn, 4 hits, 1 run, 0 walks, 7 K's from him tonight is what the team needs. Hopefully Harden beats Lohse today as well.I do think that his second MLB start (the only really bad outing) was a little unfair to him - pitching on short rest, rain delay, just plain crappy weather. Shouldn't matter who you go against either, but it was a tough Indians lineup too. His MLB debut was pretty darn good until the 5th. I think he got overwhelmed and nervous when he walked off the mound after either strike 2 or out 2 I can't remember exactly, but I remember that being the turning point. He looked pretty good before that and he kept us in the game even with the 5th inning - we did win the game. The Cubs game was a good outing, the second Cubs game was a decent outing, and his only other outing was in relief in one of the worst games in Sox history IIRC - the only highlight being a triple play. That was a bad situation to come into.

Gimm
08-09-2004, 12:19 PM
Wow - you're tough.
We're 6 games back with only 54 to go in a must-make-postseason year.

I think it's time we expect a little more out of Judy and Diaz, whatayasay?

FanOf14
08-09-2004, 12:21 PM
As a move, it's minor. As a message to a player and the team, it's awful. Burke has not only earned his spot on the major-league roster, but he's earned more playing time. We're struggling offensively, and we send down a player who's batting .356? I'm a little leery of Burke's lack of power, but he does have six doubles in limited duty. And he's looked pretty good behind the plate.

Sandy Alomar is no longer a major-league player. It's a joke that Burke was sent down. If Carlton Fisk can be let go during a road trip in the middle of the season, then Alomar can be cut now. My hope is that the only reason Alomar is still on the roster is that they want him to ride out the year so he can be named one of our coaches next season. If that's the case, then I can understand it, though we're still in the hunt and should be doing everything we can to give ourself the best chance to pull out the division. Playing Alomar is not the way to go about that.

Burke is one of the few players who, relatively speaking, has had a good year. There's a lot of other players who deserved to be sent down based on performance. With all the players playing bad baseball, Burke is the guy to send down? No way.

Why is Michael Jackson still on the roster?

I'd like to see Crede sent down to perhaps wake him up to trying to adjust his swing once in a blue moon.

Borchard has not earned his pinstripes.
Awesome post! :smile:

bobj4400
08-09-2004, 12:34 PM
I don't want Joe Borchard or Jamie Burke on this team... the simple fact that we are having this argument explains why the Sox are 6 games behind the Twins...
Thank you!!! Post of the week (maybe year)

habibharu
08-09-2004, 12:54 PM
why the hell is cotts still on this team? he should be sent down and starting every fifth day for charlotte! and borchard should be playing the OF every single game for charlotte!

kittle42
08-09-2004, 01:07 PM
If the Sox got rid of every player that people in this thread have advocated getting rid of, we'd have enough roster spots open to promote every Knight in Charlotte.

Hey, I don't care much for these bums either, but with our near ML-worst farm system, what are we gonna replace them with?

Despite that question, I still want to see Joe Borchard traded for a bag of magical beans.

Flight #24
08-09-2004, 02:44 PM
I'm troubled by the reasoning behind the decision. Why are they keeping the lesser player? Also, why is Mike Jackson still on the team? What role is cronyism playing with the 24th and 25th roster spots?
You're asking the wrong question. It's not "Why is mike Jackson still on the team", it's "Who could we replace Mike Jackson with?". Your answer per this thread is apparently with Felix Diaz, neglecting to realize that that leaves you an arm short in the bullpen. I dont' know what relievers are available in trade, but I do know that many of the good ones who would be available tend to get claimed and pulled back (making then ineligible for trade). There aren't any better relievers "on the street" or in AAA.

As for Alomar, again - it's not who's the "lesser player", it's who provides more value to the team over the upcoming stretch. Is it Burke, who'll contribute by playing in 2 games or so? Or is it Alomar who'll contribute every game by calling pitches? A pretty solid argument can be made for the latter, which I'm sure is what was told to Jamie and the team. And I'd guess no one has a problem with it (plus Jamie will be back as soon as the rules on recalling a guy who was sent down allow).

As to your other comment about DLing Sandy - not a bad idea, but I don't know how stringent MLB is about DLing guys. It's not like the NBA where the DL is effectively a taxi swaud half the time.

Gimm
08-09-2004, 07:11 PM
Diaz has given up 10 HR in 21 innings of ML work.

Lawton's drive almost went. Vizquel hit one out. Hefner followed.

No, I don't see how a 95 mph fastball could have helped him. :rolleyes:

Ooh, he just threw an 88 mph fastball. BA didn't call him Baby Pedro for nothing.

[/horror]

Gimm
08-09-2004, 08:11 PM
Make that 11 HR in 23 innings. What a useless choker.


=:corpseball -

SoxxoS
08-09-2004, 08:13 PM
Diaz has given up 10 HR in 21 innings of ML work.

Lawton's drive almost went. Vizquel hit one out. Hefner followed.

No, I don't see how a 95 mph fastball could have helped him. :rolleyes:

Ooh, he just threw an 88 mph fastball. BA didn't call him Baby Pedro for nothing.

[/horror]
WHAT? A Sox pitcher who's velocity isn't as advertised? HOW DARE HE.

Gimm
08-09-2004, 08:15 PM
WHAT? A Sox pitcher who's velocity isn't as advertised? HOW DARE HE.
All I was asking for is 6 innings/1 ER.

Instead, I got 2 inn/7 ER.

I am not happy.

Patrick134
08-09-2004, 08:21 PM
Home runs are one thing, we've lost plenty of games where we hit lots of solo shots. It's the walks. And don't say " we should have started cotts", because he is a head case and chokes every start.

SoxxoS
08-09-2004, 09:18 PM
All I was asking for is 6 innings/1 ER.

Instead, I got 2 inn/7 ER.

I am not happy.
I would have been freaking delighted for 6/4.

Gimm
08-09-2004, 09:18 PM
4-man rotation. The only way Sox get back into this thing.

We can't have automatic losses every 5th day. 5th starters are disproportionally expensive this time a year, and Sox have two get at least one more bat.

Impose a strict 100-pitch count to avoid tiring the starters. Move Diaz to the pen as an extra reliever and do the same with Schoeneweis when he is back.

HITMEN OF 77
08-09-2004, 09:31 PM
Tomorrow-Diaz sent down, Burke brought up.

HITMEN OF 77
08-09-2004, 09:32 PM
4-man rotation. The only way Sox get back into this thing.

My thoughts exactly. No more AAA pitchers coming up and getting shelled once a week this year.

Lip Man 1
08-09-2004, 09:46 PM
Sox 5th starters are now 3-10 this season.

(5th starters defined as anybody other then Buehrle, Loazia, Garcia, Contreras, Garland or Schowenweis...)

Lip

SoxxoS
08-09-2004, 09:52 PM
Sox 5th starters are now 3-10 this season.

(5th starters defined as anybody other then Buehrle, Loazia, Garcia, Contreras, Garland or Schowenweis...)

Lip
How dare you count it as a loss before the game is over:mad: :cool:

Gimm
08-09-2004, 11:08 PM
Definitive Diaz Moment: 88 mph knee-high fastball straight as arrow to Broussard with bases loaded.

Slam. Game over.