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Gimm
08-08-2004, 06:06 PM
Lofton (OBP, pest, still good speed/range in OF...3 Mill a year)

Cameron(emerging from big slump; power away from Shea; GG defense; 4 M)

Burnitz (power - that 430 foot HR is gone in any park; good D in RF; 1 M)

Hairston Jr (OBP, speed, defensive versatility; 1 M)

Floyd (power away from Shea; would be liability in RF; 4.5 M)

Delgado (power; just emerging from a slump; bum knee, bad D; 19.5 M)

Kendall (OBP, pest, average defense, washed-up; 10 M for 3)

Cruz, Jr (OBP, speed, GG defense in RF; good power potential; 2.5 M)

Jose Vidro (OBP, clutch; 7.5 M for 4)



Obviously, the preference would go to a player not signed past 2004, unless salary is fairly low. Also, not every player is available.

Aidan
08-08-2004, 06:47 PM
Kenny Lofton - may be available but he has started to hit so maybe the Yankees want to keep him now. He is also under contract for next season at $3 million which is a very unattractive quality.

Mike Cameron - I think the Mets want to keep Cameron. They seem to love his defense in CF. He has never been a great hitter anyways. He has alot of power and a great glove but has never been able to hit for average. I like Rowand over Cameron. :o:

Jermoy Burnitz - the Rockies are looking to extend Jeromy Burnitz's contract now that Larry Walker is gone since he is putting up great numbers at a dirt cheap cost ($1 million contract for this season).

Jerry Hairston, Jr. - we don't need another 2B. We have Robbie Alomar, Willie Harris, and Juan Uribe now. Uribe is starting to hit again as well as playing stellar defense.

Cliff Floyd - old and injured. He may not be able to play the field much, just like Carl Everett.

Carlos Delgado - turned us down already. He wouldn't waive his no-trade clause to come to the White Sox at the deadline.

Jason Kendall - we don't really need him now. Ben Davis is starting to hit and Jamie Burke can actually hit well off the bench with limited at bats.

Jose Cruz, Jr. - may be available but we don't really have a need for him with Carl Everett at DH/RF.

Jose Vidro - he will be the Expos franchise player after they signed him to a big extension. They need to keep him so the team will be attractive to potential buyers for when the team moves to Washington D.C. or Virginia.

batmanZoSo
08-08-2004, 06:56 PM
Kenny Lofton - may be available but he has started to hit so maybe the Yankees want to keep him now. He is also under contract for next season at $3 million which is a very unattractive quality.

Mike Cameron - I think the Mets want to keep Cameron. They seem to love his defense in CF. He has never been a great hitter anyways. He has alot of power and a great glove but has never been able to hit for average. I like Rowand over Cameron. :o:

Jermoy Burnitz - the Rockies are looking to extend Jeromy Burnitz's contract now that Larry Walker is gone since he is putting up great numbers at a dirt cheap cost ($1 million contract for this season).

Jerry Hairston, Jr. - we don't need another 2B. We have Robbie Alomar, Willie Harris, and Juan Uribe now. Uribe is starting to hit again as well as playing stellar defense.

Cliff Floyd - old and injured. He may not be able to play the field much, just like Carl Everett.

Carlos (http://www.adsrve.com/linkredirect.php?h=502,28180399,whitesoxinteractiv e.com,1) Delgado - turned us down already. He wouldn't waive his no-trade clause to come to the White Sox at the deadline.

Jason Kendall - we don't really need him now. Ben Davis is starting to hit and Jamie Burke can actually hit well off the bench with limited at bats.

Jose Cruz, Jr. - may be available but we don't really have a need for him with Carl Everett at DH/RF.

Jose Vidro - he will be the Expos franchise player after they signed him to a big extension. They need to keep him so the team will be attractive to potential buyers for when the team moves to Washington D.C. or Virginia.
Cameron's out of the question. We have enough .220 25 homer hitters that strike out a ton. His defense is spectacular, but the cost with the bat is too great. We need some steady singles hitterss.

CWSGuy406
08-08-2004, 07:07 PM
Isn't Delgado a FA after this season?

OEO Magglio
08-08-2004, 07:10 PM
Isn't Delgado a FA after this season?Yes.

Gimm
08-08-2004, 07:16 PM
Cameron's out of the question. We have enough .220 25 homer hitters that strike out a ton. His defense is spectacular, but the cost with the bat is too great. We need some steady singles hitterss.
:rolleyes:

First of all, he GREATLY improves our OF defense - he is better than Rowand in CF and Rowand is much better than Timo/Borchard in RF. Today's "triple" in the 7th? Doesn't happen if Aaron is busting his ass out there. Think about what OF range means to a ballclub over the long haul for a second here. I insist.

Check out Cameron's numbers away from Safeco/Shea. This year he's had a HORRIBLE slump (was hitting .190 at one point) and yet his Road OPS is still something like 940 - and that with him surpringly ineffective against lefties, whom he historically hit very well.

You take him away from NY media/fans and put him in USCF, and he'll give you .260/360/550 with ease. He could be a #6 on my team any day.

Plus, his speed on the bases provides another dimension to his OBP.

Finally, you're bringing an old fan favorite and a recent All-Star back, which is nice. At 4+ Mill a year, he is probably a bargain.

People don't realize how valuable Cameron can/has been under the right circumstances, strike-outs and all. I would almost rather have him than Delgado, all things considered.

dcb33
08-08-2004, 07:21 PM
Jason Kendall - we don't really need him now. Ben Davis is starting to hit and Jamie Burke can actually hit well off the bench with limited at bats.


Jamie Burke was sent down today to make room for Felix Diaz...

dickallen15
08-08-2004, 07:25 PM
:rolleyes:

First of all, he GREATLY improves our OF defense - he is better than Rowand in CF and Rowand is much better than Timo/Borchard in RF. Today's "triple" in the 7th? Doesn't happen if Aaron is busting his ass out there. Think about what OF range means to a ballclub over the long haul for a second here. I insist.

Check out Cameron's numbers away from Safeco/Shea. This year he's had a HORRIBLE slump (was hitting .190 at one point) and yet his Road OPS is still something like 940 - and that with him surpringly ineffective against lefties, whom he historically hit very well.

You take him away from NY media/fans and put him in USCF, and he'll give you .260/360/550 with ease. He could be a #6 on my team any day.

Plus, his speed on the bases provides another dimension to his OBP.

Finally, you're bringing an old fan favorite and a recent All-Star back, which is nice. At 4+ Mill a year, he is probably a bargain.

People don't realize how valuable Cameron can/has been under the right circumstances, strike-outs and all. I would almost rather have him than Delgado, all things considered.
Cameron would be very unhappy here. He is very bitter towards the White Sox organization. Seems he found out he was traded to Cincinatti by watching ESPN.

ndgt10
08-08-2004, 07:27 PM
Jamie Burke was sent down today to make room for Felix Diaz...
This is just another example of how the Sox do not put their best players on the field. Burke is much better than Alomar defensively and offensively, yet, Burke is sent down.

Gimm
08-08-2004, 07:31 PM
Kenny Lofton - may be available but he has started to hit so maybe the Yankees want to keep him now. He is also under contract for next season at $3 million which is a very unattractive quality.

Mike Cameron - I think the Mets want to keep Cameron. They seem to love his defense in CF. He has never been a great hitter anyways. He has alot of power and a great glove but has never been able to hit for average. I like Rowand over Cameron. :o:

Jermoy Burnitz - the Rockies are looking to extend Jeromy Burnitz's contract now that Larry Walker is gone since he is putting up great numbers at a dirt cheap cost ($1 million contract for this season).

Jerry Hairston, Jr. - we don't need another 2B. We have Robbie Alomar, Willie Harris, and Juan Uribe now. Uribe is starting to hit again as well as playing stellar defense.

Cliff Floyd - old and injured. He may not be able to play the field much, just like Carl Everett.

Carlos Delgado - turned us down already. He wouldn't waive his no-trade clause to come to the White Sox at the deadline.

Jason Kendall - we don't really need him now. Ben Davis is starting to hit and Jamie Burke can actually hit well off the bench with limited at bats.

Jose Cruz, Jr. - may be available but we don't really have a need for him with Carl Everett at DH/RF.

Jose Vidro - he will be the Expos franchise player after they signed him to a big extension. They need to keep him so the team will be attractive to potential buyers for when the team moves to Washington D.C. or Virginia.
Lofton - given how desperately we need to win in 2004 and 2005, and considering the value he could give a GOOD team in the lead-off spot (ask Giants and Cubs fans), 3 Mill is not a lot.

Cameron - hitting for average is hugely overrated as long as the power and OBP are there. See my post below.

Burnitz - yep, Sox missed another (dirt-cheap) boat here.

Hairston, Jr - we could use his 400 OBP against lefties as well as his speed AND defensive versatility. If we can't score Cameron, Lofton, etc.....he could even play CF a little bit, with Rowand moving to RF. Depth, depth, depth if anything else. Anyway, with the way Uribe, Crede and Willie have performed since June (horrible), I find it laughable that anyone would use THEM as the reason not get an important piece of the pennant race puzzle. It's not like Hairston makes a lot of money or anything.

Cliff Floyd - you might be right. Still, at this point, better Floyd than Timo/Borchard in RF.

Carlos Delgado - Minds are meant to be changed.

Jason Kendall - We need a lead-off hitter since neither Rowand nor Robbie are it (they are suited for 2-hole). Willie too can be a great #9 hitter, but in the lead-off spot, he can't handle the pressure. Again, if nobody else comes here and Pirates are willing to pay half his salary, I'd take a chance on him - who knows, he is still young enough to duplicate his awesome 1999 numbers with a change of scenery.

Jose Cruz, Jr. - Everett is a DH. Period. You saw why today. Cruz plays GG RF, has speed and crushes LHP (without Maggs and Thomas, this Sox team finds itself horribly exposed to southpaws) and hopefully starts crushing RHP as well - he is a very good fastball hitter, so who knows if he could be revived if put in front of Lee, Konerko, etc. Low-risk/high-reward.

Jose Vidro - Eh, Sox need a lead-off hitter more than they do a #2 anyway. :tongue:


Are there other options I am missing? I was a huge JD Drew fan back when Braves were 6 games under .500, but obviously he's not an option anymore. :redneck

Gimm
08-08-2004, 07:35 PM
Cameron would be very unhappy here. He is very bitter towards the White Sox organization. Seems he found out he was traded to Cincinatti by watching ESPN.
I am sick and tired of people constantly bringing up this off-field BS/rumors. This isn't Junior High anymore, adults actually get over stuff like that, believe it or not..

These people are highly skilled and paid professionals. Lofton will learn to deal with it if he's traded here. So will Mike.

soxtalker
08-08-2004, 07:37 PM
This is just another example of how the Sox do not put their best players on the field. Burke is much better than Alomar defensively and offensively, yet, Burke is sent down.
Well, it is true what you say about Alomar vs. Burke, but what did you want the Sox to do with Alomar?

dickallen15
08-08-2004, 07:42 PM
I am sick and tired of people constantly bringing up this off-field BS/rumors. This isn't Junior High anymore, adults actually get over stuff like that, believe it or not..

These people are highly skilled and paid professionals. Lofton will learn to deal with it if he's traded here. So will Mike.
Professional athletes are spoiled babies. They have been coddled since they've been 8 years old. A junior high maturity level is really giving a lot of them too much credit.

DVsoxfan
08-08-2004, 07:59 PM
The mets wont be trading anyone, and vidro signed an extension. You can scratch those off the list. Oh, and Delgado's an idiot so scratch him off the list too.

Mohoney
08-08-2004, 08:00 PM
I don't really want to give up anymore prospects for a position player. We need PITCHING! A setup man and/or a 5th starter are WAY more pressing concerns than adding another position player. We just need to shake the crazies out of Carlos Lee and Jose Valentin and tell them not to swing for the fences EVERY DAMN TIME they step up to the plate!

If Joe Borchard and Ben Davis can go the other way, then surely Carlos Lee can. He just doesn't want to.

Stick with the position players we have now, and get some bullpen help. We only have 2 more off days this year, and Marte and Shingo both look overworked at this point, with Politte next in line to join them since his workload is increased as well. We can't even entertain notions of competing with the Twins unless we add a setup guy to help lighten the load.

Evman5
08-08-2004, 08:01 PM
How about Ron Villone to help shore up our bullpen? I think he would be a solid addition for this year and hopefully sign him for next year too.

Aidan
08-08-2004, 08:10 PM
Jamie Burke was sent down today to make room for Felix Diaz...Sweet! I guess that means that Ben Davis is now the everyday catcher with Sandy Alomar giving him rest a game or two a week.

Gimm
08-08-2004, 08:12 PM
I don't really want to give up anymore prospects for a position player. We need PITCHING! You have got to be ****ting me here!

Check out our offensive output since the Cubs series in Wrigley....we've been one of the WORST hitting teams in AL in that 6-week time span.

And you know how much lack of offense demoralizes PITCHERS, especially headcases and rookies like Garland and Diaz?

Sorry, but we need hitting WAY more than we need pitching. Valentin, Everett and Uribe will slug their way out of their slumps, but it won't be enough. We need a lead-off hitter and a 3/4 spot slugger. Lofton and Larry Walker were my choices, but it's not meant to be apparently. :mad:

BTW, did I mention......**** the prospects! Spidale, Rogowski, Nanita, Yofu, Brice - take them all.

Mohoney
08-08-2004, 10:38 PM
You have got to be ****ting me here!

Check out our offensive output since the Cubs series in Wrigley....we've been one of the WORST hitting teams in AL in that 6-week time span.

And you know how much lack of offense demoralizes PITCHERS, especially headcases and rookies like Garland and Diaz?

Sorry, but we need hitting WAY more than we need pitching. Valentin, Everett and Uribe will slug their way out of their slumps, but it won't be enough. We need a lead-off hitter and a 3/4 spot slugger. Lofton and Larry Walker were my choices, but it's not meant to be apparently. :mad:

BTW, did I mention......**** the prospects! Spidale, Rogowski, Nanita, Yofu, Brice - take them all.

I'm not ****ing you. As it stands right now, even if we do add offense and get in the playoffs, our bullpen would be CRUCIFIED in the playoffs. Shingo and Marte already look overworked, Politte is well on his way to getting there, too, and nobody else down there can be counted on in anything less than mop up duty.

A lot of people seem to think that our offense should put up at least 5 runs each and every game, with no exceptions. That simply won't happen. Any offense is going to have their share of games where they only score 3 or 4 runs, and we simply do not have enough bullpen depth to win these types of games.

I think today's game is a prime example of just how big a need we have in our bullpen. Contreras pitches a gem, only gives up 1 run over 8 solid innings (even while getting subpar defense in the outfield), and walks away with a no-decision? That's criminal.

Buehrle, Garcia, and Contreras ALL pitched well enough to win their games. The offense let Buehrle down, I'll give you that, but these past 2 games can both be blamed on the bullpen, and ONLY the bullpen.

If help doesn't arrive soon, these guys are going to burn out.

Mohoney
08-08-2004, 10:44 PM
How about Ron Villone to help shore up our bullpen? I think he would be a solid addition for this year and hopefully sign him for next year too.

Actually, I wouldn't mind Villone at all. Villone definitely adds another option to the late innings, and can shoulder some of Marte's workload. He can also go long in outings, perhaps up to 3 innings.

I wouldn't mind Hasegawa, either. Maybe Seattle would accept a package of cash and 2 or 3 PTBNL for both? Cotts and Adkins could go to AAA, get more regular work in the Charlotte bullpen, and these two guys could slide right in. Then Cotts and Adkins can both come back as September call-ups.

MRKARNO
08-08-2004, 10:49 PM
I think we need to wait until near the August 31st deadline to see if we're really in it then. If we appear to be still in the race at that time then it might not be a bad idea to get a Villone or someone else for our bullpen.

Mohoney
08-08-2004, 11:01 PM
I think we need to wait until near the August 31st deadline to see if we're really in it then. If we appear to be still in the race at that time then it might not be a bad idea to get a Villone or someone else for our bullpen.

I don't think we have the luxury of waiting. Our guys in the bullpen look like they're running on fumes as it is. If we don't do something fast, somebody might get seriously hurt, jeopardizing not only this season, but next season as well.

At the very least, regardless of what you feel our chances are for this year, you have to protect these three late inning guys from chronic overuse so the arms aren't taxed and they can perform well next year.

Gimm
08-08-2004, 11:03 PM
I think we need to wait until near the August 31st deadline to see if we're really in it then. If we appear to be still in the race at that time then it might not be a bad idea to get a Villone or someone else for our bullpen.Waiting and seeing is what got us in this ****ing mess in the first place.

Do you understand that the Sox went from being 1/2 UP to 7 games DOWN in a matter of two weeks (!!), with majority of those losses easily traceable to the stalling offense that put unbearable strain on our pitching staff?

This team needs a lead-off hitter and a middle-of-the-order slugger, preferably a right-hander........NOT Hasegawa or Villion - what good is a reliable reliever when your team is losing 4-1 in the 8th because the offense was too busy feeling sorry for itself and the starting pitcher couldn't handle the pressure to be perfect and had a big inning?

Gimm
08-08-2004, 11:10 PM
I'm not ****ing you. As it stands right now, even if we do add offense and get in the playoffs, our bullpen would be CRUCIFIED in the playoffs. Shingo and Marte already look overworked, Politte is well on his way to getting there, too, and nobody else down there can be counted on in anything less than mop up duty.

A lot of people seem to think that our offense should put up at least 5 runs each and every game, with no exceptions. That simply won't happen. Any offense is going to have their share of games where they only score 3 or 4 runs, and we simply do not have enough bullpen depth to win these types of games.

I think today's game is a prime example of just how big a need we have in our bullpen. Contreras pitches a gem, only gives up 1 run over 8 solid innings (even while getting subpar defense in the outfield), and walks away with a no-decision? That's criminal.

Buehrle, Garcia, and Contreras ALL pitched well enough to win their games. The offense let Buehrle down, I'll give you that, but these past 2 games can both be blamed on the bullpen, and ONLY the bullpen.

If help doesn't arrive soon, these guys are going to burn out.
Do you get? We have to GET to the playoffs first! And without another 2 bats, we're not making up the 6 game deficit.

And if anything, Marte and Shingo are UNDER-worked - they are inactive for 4-5 days on end because the offense sucks and this team can't get a late lead for them......and then they are asked to come in a no-margin-for-error situation and save the day. No wonder their control is erratic. And Politte is just fine if you use him primarily against RH. What Sox need is Kelly Wunsch to get his ass back and start mowing down LH, so Politte sees as few of them as possible. Our bullpen, while not a big asset, is FAR from a liability.

Mohoney
08-08-2004, 11:19 PM
Our bullpen, while not a big asset, is FAR from a liability.

I wholeheartedly disagree. Our bullpen is in shambles right now.

If you like the bullpen, fine. All I'm saying is that I think, without a fresh arm being added down the stretch, we're toast.

We have 2 off days left the entire season. What if we DO go on this unbelievable hot streak where we play great baseball 8 or 9 games in a row? Can Marte, Politte, and Shingo handle all that workload and not get hurt without a viable 4th option for 6th and 7th inning work? Personally, I don't think so.

P.S. Wunsch is never going to pitch for this team again. Therefore, any bullpen help will have to come via a trade.

Gimm
08-08-2004, 11:25 PM
I wholeheartedly disagree. Our bullpen is in shambles right now.

If you like the bullpen, fine. All I'm saying is that I think, without a fresh arm being added down the stretch, we're toast.

We have 2 off days left the entire season. What if we DO go on this unbelievable hot streak where we play great baseball 8 or 9 games in a row? Can Marte, Politte, and Shingo handle all that workload and not get hurt without a viable 4th option for 6th and 7th inning work? Personally, I don't think so.

P.S. Wunsch is never going to pitch for this team again. Therefore, any bullpen help will have to come via a trade.As long as Wunsch is striking out 5 batters of 6 faced (as he did the other day) and his velocity is back to 87-88 level, KW will have no choice but to bring him up - Kenny's job may very well depend on this team making playoffs, remember?

Marte-Shingo as set-up man/closer combo are more than fine - if they get regular work. Politte and Wunsch could work well together - Neal Cotts never did learn how to get lefties out.

Would I take BJ Ryan? Sure. Is acquiring another "fresh" arm nearly as important as a lead-off hitter and another slugger? Hell no!

Mohoney
08-08-2004, 11:40 PM
As long as Wunsch is striking out 5 batters of 6 faced (as he did the other day) and his velocity is back to 87-88 level, KW will have no choice but to bring him up - Kenny's job may very well depend on this team making playoffs, remember?

That's another thing I don't agree with. Kenny Williams will be this team's GM for at LEAST another 3 years, unless we totally tank and finish in 4th or 5th place in '05 or '06.

Gimm
08-08-2004, 11:53 PM
That's another thing I don't agree with. Kenny Williams will be this team's GM for at LEAST another 3 years, unless we totally tank and finish in 4th or 5th place in '05 or '06.
JR may die tomorrow, I hope you realize that. You sure EE and Co. are gonna keep KW around after another failure? I don't think so.

And I stand by my point that Wusch would not have been run out of town if he was healthy and contributing in April. KW hates him, but not THAT much.

A few more dominant outings in AAA (and a few more LH'ers teeing off Cotts in big-game situations) and Wunsch might just fine his way back to Chicago.

Gimm
08-09-2004, 12:02 AM
We have 2 off days left the entire season. What if we DO go on this unbelievable hot streak where we play great baseball 8 or 9 games in a row? Can Marte, Politte, and Shingo handle all that workload and not get hurt without a viable 4th option for 6th and 7th inning work? Personally, I don't think so..Considering that aformentioned relievers logged less innings than their counter-parts from other contending teams, I don't see why not. Their ineffectiveness is due to rust, not fatigue.

But I DO agree with you in principle that it's important to have extra arms in the pen. Getting Kelly Wunsch back healthy is key, but I thought this is where loss of Schoeneweis hurt the most - not only did he hurt the team by suckiing in the rotation, but he could have actually been a big help as a long-man in the pen since he is much more effective as a reliever, especially with the newly-learned change and cutter.

I could live with Schoeneweis-Politte-Wunsch-Marte-Shingo as key relievers down the stretch. Sure, I'll take Mota and K-Rod, too......:smile: