PDA

View Full Version : "You can't go to the Kentucky Derby with donkeys"


cbrownson13
08-08-2004, 03:27 AM
That's a quote from Ozzie in the newest ESPN the Magazine. He has a 3 page article in the mag, pretty good one too. I just got it in the mail today, so I imagine that it's out on newsstands if anyone's interested.

idseer
08-08-2004, 09:30 AM
That's a quote from Ozzie in the newest ESPN the Magazine. He has a 3 page article in the mag, pretty good one too. I just got it in the mail today, so I imagine that it's out on newsstands if anyone's interested.
omg! did he really say that about his own players? :o:

cbrownson13
08-08-2004, 11:29 AM
The exact excerpt is,

(Talking about Frank and Maggs)...Their absence brings to mind one of Guillen's favorite sayings, "You can't go to the Kentucky Derby with donkeys." But he's not complaining. "After seeing what happened last year, anything can happen. Anything."

PaleHoseGeorge
08-08-2004, 12:13 PM
Ozzie definitely gets it.

Kenny probably gets it.

That leaves just one giant question mark.
:cool:

:reinsy
"Whatchu talkin' about, Willis?"

KingXerxes
08-08-2004, 12:27 PM
PHG - I'm not so sure that Kenny Williams gets it.

His last couple of press conferences seem to indicate that he really thinks this roster has the potential of winning something. I'm not totally giving up on this season, but I am coming to the conclusion that the whole "Ordonez, Thomas, Lee, Valentin, Konerko" core has to be broken up at this point, and this team needs to head in a totally different direction - but which way?

His recent "calling out of the players" is starting to look like he honestly believes the White Sox are as talented as any other major league team - and the results beg to differ. This is yet another carbon copy of Carl Everett's "We're better than Minnesota" speech last year.

If they truly are better - over the course of a season it will manifest itself with more wins than the other guys. It always amazes me how this organization has to keep reminding itself of how unbelievably talented it is, and that any time we lose it's "unlucky".

PaleHoseGeorge
08-08-2004, 12:39 PM
PHG - I'm not so sure that Kenny Williams gets it.

His last couple of press conferences seem to indicate that he really thinks this roster has the potential of winning something. I'm not totally giving up on this season, but I am coming to the conclusion that the whole "Ordonez, Thomas, Lee, Valentin, Konerko" core has to be broken up at this point, and this team needs to head in a totally different direction - but which way?

His recent "calling out of the players" is starting to look like he honestly believes the White Sox are as talented as any other major league team - and the results beg to differ. This is yet another carbon copy of Carl Everett's "We're better than Minnesota" speech last year.

If they truly are better - over the course of a season it will manifest itself with more wins than the other guys. It always amazes me how this organization has to keep reminding itself of how unbelievably talented it is, and that any time we lose it's "unlucky".
Yes, we'll never *know* exactly how much Kenny is saying is what Kenny thinks, or how much is simply Kenny saying what his boss expects him to say. He didn't get the GM job from Reinsdorf talking crazy about spending money to build a champion, that's for sure.
:cool:

Frankly I'm surprised Ozzie is talking crazy because he just got the job last November. He must feel pretty secure about his position. Either that, or he is crazy.
:tongue:

:reinsy
"Hey Hawk, go get Ozzie would you. I need to talk with him."

:hawk
"Right away, Jerry. I don't think anyone on this team is a donkey, except maybe Willie Harris of course."

:reinsy
"Exactly, Hawk. Exactly."

Lip Man 1
08-08-2004, 01:52 PM
Folks:

As PHG will confirm that quote from Ozzie took place during Sox Fest 2004!

PHG can confirm it because as soon as I saw it in the Chicago newspapers I e-mailed it to him for potential use on the WSI Sox-O-Gram (Still waiting to see it PHG! :smile: Now would be an appropriate time ) George responded that at the time it came out he missed seeing it.

I think Williams wants to win badly... remember his quote from last year (I'm paraphrasing here) 'we need to win so I don't have to try to put this together every damn season.' The trouble is ownership doesn't want to win as badly as he does.

Kenny sticks out like a sore thumb around here in that regards. You start to wonder how long he's going to want to put up with it.

Lip

Wealz
08-08-2004, 02:42 PM
I think Williams wants to win badly... remember his quote from last year (I'm paraphrasing here) 'we need to win so I don't have to try to put this together every damn season.' The trouble is ownership doesn't want to win as badly as he does.
Why does Williams get credit for 'wanting to win' without the corresponding criticism of not understanding how to go about it?

jabrch
08-08-2004, 02:51 PM
Why does Williams get credit for 'wanting to win' without the corresponding criticism of not understanding how to go about it?

He just doesn't understand how to keep Frank and Magglio from getting injured?

OEO Magglio
08-08-2004, 03:11 PM
He just doesn't understand how to keep Frank and Magglio from getting injured?Yup, that's something he better learn to do.:rolleyes:

Chrisaway
08-08-2004, 03:17 PM
Yes, we'll never *know* exactly how much Kenny is saying is what Kenny thinks, or how much is simply Kenny saying what his boss expects him to say. He didn't get the GM job from Reinsdorf talking crazy about spending money to build a champion, that's for sure.
:cool:

Frankly I'm surprised Ozzie is talking crazy because he just got the job last November. He must feel pretty secure about his position. Either that, or he is crazy.
:tongue:

:reinsy
"Hey Hawk, go get Ozzie would you. I need to talk with him."

:hawk
"Right away, Jerry. I don't think anyone on this team is a donkey, except maybe Willie Harris of course."

:reinsy
"Exactly, Hawk. Exactly."
aaahahahahaha

Wealz
08-08-2004, 03:27 PM
He just doesn't understand how to keep Frank and Magglio from getting injured?
One thing these injuries have brought to light is how flimsy the "supporting cast" is.

TornLabrum
08-08-2004, 04:20 PM
One thing these injuries have brought to light is how flimsy the "supporting cast" is.
The very topic of the Fallen Arches column I submitted this morning!

FightingBillini
08-08-2004, 06:58 PM
Why does Williams get credit for 'wanting to win' without the corresponding criticism of not understanding how to go about it?
Who does know how to win a world series? Teams that spend a lot? The Yankees? Not since 2000, and never again. The Red Sox? The Mets? They continue to be a joke. You cant say that the 02 Angels or 03 Marlins were put together to win it all, it just happened, the teams meshed. They came out of nowhere. There is no formula.

Lip Man 1
08-08-2004, 10:12 PM
Teams that spend have a better chance of getting to the post season, the statistics overwhelmingly prove that since 2000.

Once you get to the playoffs according to some fans anything can happen, so that's the key...getting there. (and the odds are tremendously better with a large payroll)

Lip

Flight #24
08-08-2004, 10:26 PM
One thing these injuries have brought to light is how flimsy the "supporting cast" is.
You make a good point. I mean paying Maggs 14mil and Thomas 6......that doesn't limit your flexibility any......or maybe you mean Konerko's 8? All that gets you is the top 1B OPS in the NL, who needs that?

If you have stars like Frank & Maggs, you pay them. And that creates limiattaions at other spots. Your other option is to get lesser "top" guys and have better "bottom" guys. That's a better team if your top guys get hurt, but a worse team if everyone's healthy. The Sox were built to be dominant if healthy, and they were showing it by being one of the best teams in the AL before they lost both of their top 2 hitters.

You know - I'm tired of arguing this. How about we give KW a chance to assemble his team, and have them healthy just once before indicting him. It's year 4 and the team he put together looks extremely strong sans 2 freak injuries to 2 of the top players in all of baseball, including one I don't think anyone's ever seen in baseball before. But that's his fault, he should have predicted that, or he shouldn't have kept that guy and instead signed 3 better "bottom guys".

South Side
08-09-2004, 01:00 AM
Teams that spend have a better chance of getting to the post season, the statistics overwhelmingly prove that since 2000.

Once you get to the playoffs according to some fans anything can happen, so that's the key...getting there. (and the odds are tremendously better with a large payroll)

Lip

Isn't everything tremedously better with a large payroll?

fquaye149
08-09-2004, 03:37 AM
One thing these injuries have brought to light is how flimsy the "supporting cast" is.

*****!

take the two top players off any WS winning team and they probably don't make the playoffs.

2003 Marlins w/o Beckett and Redman?
2002 Angels W/o Glaus and Anderson?
2001 D-backs w/o Schilling and Johnson?

Absolutely no chance. Absolutely not. Because we have a team that can stay above .500 without the two best players on our team and two of the top 20 hitters in baseball we have a flimsy cast? sorry. . .you're absolutely incorrect in this regard.

TornLabrum
08-09-2004, 08:12 AM
*****!

take the two top players off any WS winning team and they probably don't make the playoffs.

2003 Marlins w/o Beckett and Redman?
2002 Angels W/o Glaus and Anderson?
2001 D-backs w/o Schilling and Johnson?

Absolutely no chance. Absolutely not. Because we have a team that can stay above .500 without the two best players on our team and two of the top 20 hitters in baseball we have a flimsy cast? sorry. . .you're absolutely incorrect in this regard.
That still doesn't disprove the fact that we are sorely lacking in talent at third base, second base, catcher (Davis's recent performance in no way indicates that he will continue to perform that way), have an aging shortstop who strikes out more than he hits, and that Joe Borchard so far is a bust. Oh, and we still don't have a fifth starter.

SOXSINCE'70
08-09-2004, 08:21 AM
That still doesn't disprove the fact that we are sorely lacking in talent at third base, second base, catcher (Davis's recent performance in no way indicates that he will continue to perform that way), have an aging shortstop who strikes out more than he hits, and that Joe Borchard so far is a bust. Oh, and we still don't have a fifth starter.
Other than that,everything is great.:D: :D: :D:

fquaye149
08-09-2004, 10:56 AM
That still doesn't disprove the fact that we are sorely lacking in talent at third base, second base, catcher (Davis's recent performance in no way indicates that he will continue to perform that way), have an aging shortstop who strikes out more than he hits, and that Joe Borchard so far is a bust. Oh, and we still don't have a fifth starter.
absolutely, but every team is weak in some areas.

I'm reasonably sure that if we stayed healthy we'd be in first place right now.

Of course we didn't and we're not, but those deficiencies would seem like acceptable losses had frank and maggs stayed healthy.

Flight #24
08-09-2004, 11:14 AM
That still doesn't disprove the fact that we are sorely lacking in talent at third base, second base, catcher (Davis's recent performance in no way indicates that he will continue to perform that way), have an aging shortstop who strikes out more than he hits, and that Joe Borchard so far is a bust. Oh, and we still don't have a fifth starter.
Doesn't every team have holes? Even the Yanks have problems in the starting rotation and a 2B & 1B. The RedSox have much worse starting pitching problems than we do. The Cubs have problems in the bullpen. The Cards are probalby the most complete team, but even they are relying on some starters to continue to defy their historical performances.

This team was built to get different contributions from different players. Crede, Uribe, Harris were supposed to provide D and marginal O (and some speed from Willie). Jose was supposed to provide D, some power, and the old "clubhouse leadership". None were supposed to be major offensive components. Borchard wasn't even supposed to be on the team.

It's not so surprising that when the players you rely on for D become key offensive components, the team suffers. Every team is designed to have some strengths and some holes, but the strengths more than make up for the holes. The Sox just lost their strength due to injury, which exposes and exacerbates the holes. The same would happen with any other team.

gosox41
08-09-2004, 11:22 AM
He just doesn't understand how to keep Frank and Magglio from getting injured?
No, he doesn't understand how to fill any of the existing holes that have been on this team since 2001.


Bob

TornLabrum
08-10-2004, 12:45 AM
absolutely, but every team is weak in some areas.

I'm reasonably sure that if we stayed healthy we'd be in first place right now.

Of course we didn't and we're not, but those deficiencies would seem like acceptable losses had frank and maggs stayed healthy.
Let's see: Right field (assuming Maggs is gone for good), third base, shortstop second base, and catcher. That's five of 9 defensive positions. Take Maggs out of the mix, and then tell me how many playoff teams have holes at four of the defensive positions.

fquaye149
08-10-2004, 08:18 AM
Let's see: Right field (assuming Maggs is gone for good), third base, shortstop second base, and catcher. That's five of 9 defensive positions. Take Maggs out of the mix, and then tell me how many playoff teams have holes at four of the defensive positions.
that assumes kenny won't replace magglio with a competent right fielder.

going into this season we had maggs until the end, so that's not really a fair criticism of kenny.

TornLabrum
08-10-2004, 08:43 AM
that assumes kenny won't replace magglio with a competent right fielder.

going into this season we had maggs until the end, so that's not really a fair criticism of kenny.
I said to ignore right field. That still leaves you holes at three infield positions and catcher. That's four. The question was, how many playoff clubs have holes at four defensive positions (not to mention fifth starter and the bullpen)?

Flight #24
08-10-2004, 11:29 AM
Let's see: Right field (assuming Maggs is gone for good), third base, shortstop second base, and catcher. That's five of 9 defensive positions. Take Maggs out of the mix, and then tell me how many playoff teams have holes at four of the defensive positions.
To be fair, entering the season you had a 3B who plays excellent D and was coming off of hitting .260 overall in his first full season with a pretty great 2d half (.285 / .792OPS). That wasn't a glaring hole.

As for contendind teams with holes, IIRC Texas began the season with a bunch of prospects vying for all 3 OF slots (Delucci, Nix, mench, Matthews Jr). Boston began the season with ?s at 2B (Reese/Bllhorn), 3B(Mueller), RF, and at the bottom of the rotation. STLouis began the season with ?s at 2B, RF, and all over the rotation.

You can get by with 3 holes if you fill them with solid defensive players who have some offensive potential (i.e. Jose = power, Willie = speed, etc). But if you later rely on those players to be complete players, you'll fail. The Sox began the season with 6 spots in the lineup containing solid all-around offensive players (Lee, Rowand, Maggs, Crede, Konerko, Thomas). That should have been fine and covered for the deficiences at SS, 2B, C but 1 flopped (Crede), and 2 got hurt.

Wealz
08-10-2004, 11:45 AM
Let's see: Right field (assuming Maggs is gone for good), third base, shortstop second base, and catcher. That's five of 9 defensive positions. Take Maggs out of the mix, and then tell me how many playoff teams have holes at four of the defensive positions.
And this I think leads to KW's biggest failure. In 2003 they allocated roughly 35% of team payroll to corner players, Lee, Konerko, and Ordonez. This year that figure jumped to roughly 45%.

In the meantime, the middle of the diamond has decayed. It's so much easier to find first baseman, left and right fielders that you have to wonder about the logic of having so much of the team's financial resources tied up in three guys who aren't elite players. Maggs comes closest to that and might be, but that can be debated.

Wealz
08-10-2004, 11:48 AM
*****!

take the two top players off any WS winning team and they probably don't make the playoffs.

2003 Marlins w/o Beckett and Redman?
2002 Angels W/o Glaus and Anderson?
2001 D-backs w/o Schilling and Johnson?

Absolutely no chance. Absolutely not. Because we have a team that can stay above .500 without the two best players on our team and two of the top 20 hitters in baseball we have a flimsy cast? sorry. . .you're absolutely incorrect in this regard.
Look around the diamond. Not one building block. Flimsy supporting cast.

KingXerxes
08-10-2004, 11:52 AM
:KW

"In response to Ozzie Guillen's quote - I have entered into negotiations to sign Sir Barton, Gallant Fox, Count Fleet, War Admiral, Assault, Omaha, Secretariat, Whirlaway, Citation, Affirmed and Seattle Slew."

:hawk

"Yessir - Triple Crown winners all...............mercy..........I'l never forget the time when I was on Boston and Yaz was going for the batting title.........wouldn't you just know it, Washington was playing Texas in a double header that same day when Ol' Sir Barton went 11 for 12 over both games and won the batting title..................Mercy...........you could have lit a cigar off of Yaz's fanny that day."

:rooney

"What?"

:hawk

"Best Triple Crown Race I've ever seen in over thirty one decades of being around baseball..............Mercy."

:rooney

"First off, how could Washington even be playing Texas when the Senators moved to..........."

:hawk

"Yaz's fanny...........yessir."

Jjav829
08-10-2004, 11:58 AM
LMAO! Great stuff as usual KingX!

TornLabrum
08-10-2004, 12:09 PM
To be fair, entering the season you had a 3B who plays excellent D and was coming off of hitting .260 overall in his first full season with a pretty great 2d half (.285 / .792OPS). That wasn't a glaring hole.

As for contendind teams with holes, IIRC Texas began the season with a bunch of prospects vying for all 3 OF slots (Delucci, Nix, mench, Matthews Jr). Boston began the season with ?s at 2B (Reese/Bllhorn), 3B(Mueller), RF, and at the bottom of the rotation. STLouis began the season with ?s at 2B, RF, and all over the rotation.

You can get by with 3 holes if you fill them with solid defensive players who have some offensive potential (i.e. Jose = power, Willie = speed, etc). But if you later rely on those players to be complete players, you'll fail. The Sox began the season with 6 spots in the lineup containing solid all-around offensive players (Lee, Rowand, Maggs, Crede, Konerko, Thomas). That should have been fine and covered for the deficiences at SS, 2B, C but 1 flopped (Crede), and 2 got hurt.
Crede had a pretty awful first half this year. He's had a pretty awful year so far. He apparently cannot or will not adjust. Last year, they blamed a virus for his poor first half, but this year when the pressure was on him to perform as well the second half as he did the second half last year, he failed miserably. This makes him a hole.

The key here is that those injuries showed just how weak a lineup containing any combination of Harris, Uribe, Valentin, Borcard/Perez, and Davis/Burke/Alomar really is.

Yes, injuries killed us, but if you've read the Fallen Arches column lately, you'll know that my main beef has been and still is with those who were so eager to dump Maggs and Frank. They got what they asked for.

Flight #24
08-10-2004, 12:41 PM
Crede had a pretty awful first half this year. He's had a pretty awful year so far. He apparently cannot or will not adjust. Last year, they blamed a virus for his poor first half, but this year when the pressure was on him to perform as well the second half as he did the second half last year, he failed miserably. This makes him a hole.

The key here is that those injuries showed just how weak a lineup containing any combination of Harris, Uribe, Valentin, Borcard/Perez, and Davis/Burke/Alomar really is.

Yes, injuries killed us, but if you've read the Fallen Arches column lately, you'll know that my main beef has been and still is with those who were so eager to dump Maggs and Frank. They got what they asked for.
Maybe we're addressing different points. I'm saying that entering this year, we had 3 holes and had a pretty reasonable expectation that we could cover them based on the rest of the lineup. Going into next season, we appear to have more holes, I'd agree with that. But we have to see if/how they're filled.