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View Full Version : *Official* 8/7/2004 Meltdown..again...postgame thread


Viva Magglio
08-07-2004, 08:31 PM
Yet another way to lose!!!

WhiteSoxFan84
08-07-2004, 08:32 PM
as optimistic as I have been, allow me to declare victory for the Twins...


it's over, it's ALL over.

this may sound odd, but would you, as a Sox fan, feel better if the cubs didn't make the playoffs either? i would not feel nearly as bad about the season if the cubs didn't make it either.

Viva Magglio
08-07-2004, 08:34 PM
Worst White Sox season to stomach...ever...

Cowch44
08-07-2004, 08:34 PM
Third place......Our closer blows it.....and Lee COULD be hurt:whiner:

dcb33
08-07-2004, 08:34 PM
I guess our questions about how Shingo would do as teams got more and more looks at him have been answered....

AnkleSox
08-07-2004, 08:34 PM
I hope they all get hurt. Maybe we can get a whole new lineup.

ChiWhiteSox1337
08-07-2004, 08:34 PM
3rd place sox. now we have to worry about the tigers sneaking up :angry:

Aidan
08-07-2004, 08:35 PM
The only question now is...

















...How low can we go???

JGarlandrules20
08-07-2004, 08:35 PM
Hello...third place. :(:

Viva Magglio
08-07-2004, 08:36 PM
The only question now is...How low can we go???
Oh, much lower, and we're well on our way.

Jjav829
08-07-2004, 08:36 PM
Worst White Sox season to stomach...ever...
Hey don't worry. Give it a year and this team will find a way to make next season even worse. We've done this 4 consecutive years in a row. Every year it seems to get worse. Who even remembers our awful 2003 season right now? See. By next August/September we'll have another choke job/collapse on our hands to make us forget about this one.

83 White Sox
08-07-2004, 08:36 PM
Very depressing loss. Seems like over the past 12 games, every thing that could have gone wrong has.

Yet another wasted year.... :whiner:

michned
08-07-2004, 08:36 PM
I guess our questions about how Shingo would do as teams got more and more looks at him have been answered....
I don't know. He was due for a blown save and he was behind in the count. Lawton knew what was coming and he hammered it.

Cowch44
08-07-2004, 08:37 PM
Here comes our Oakland A's 2002 run.:bandance:

Lip Man 1
08-07-2004, 08:37 PM
When it's this bad, this 'unlucky' this pathetic, all you can do is laugh and pop another cold one.


Lip

Frater Perdurabo
08-07-2004, 08:37 PM
I think Chicago got a lifetime worth of championships with the 90s Bulls. Too bad I'm not a hoops fan.

When/why/for whom did we trade Bob Wickman years ago?

I'll always be a Sox fan, but for my health and sanity I'm going to take up model railroading for a while. At least I can't lose in HO scale. :(:

On the plus side, maybe Borchard is beginning to pull out of his lifelong major league slump. *slap Frater* for getting sucked in again...

RKMeibalane
08-07-2004, 08:37 PM
:hawk

"We gawn!"

Viva Magglio
08-07-2004, 08:37 PM
I can predict right now that it will make the SoxFest 2004 Friday Night Forum a coffee klatch in comparison.

duke of dorwood
08-07-2004, 08:38 PM
I really didnt expect this kind of fold-the team is better than this.

WhiteSoxFan84
08-07-2004, 08:38 PM
Here comes our Oakland A's 2002 run.:bandance:
haha i love it

u somehow managed to not only make me smile, but you also made me laugh out loud. good stuff.

Frater Perdurabo
08-07-2004, 08:39 PM
On the plus side, the Sox are working on a higher draft pick. Of course, they probably will draft someone like, say, Shawn Abner, Jeff Abbott or Rodney Bolton. :angry:

Lip Man 1
08-07-2004, 08:39 PM
Bob Wickman I believe was part of the Steve Sax deal along with Melido Perez after the end of the 1991 season. Pin that one on Ron Schueler.

Lip

michned
08-07-2004, 08:39 PM
When it's this bad, this 'unlucky' this pathetic, all you can do is laugh and pop another cold one.
Yep, I'm buyin'!

:gulp:

WhiteSoxFan84
08-07-2004, 08:40 PM
I don't know about you guys, but if Jerry Manuel had pinch hit for Jose Valentin in the 6th inning, the Sox would have won the game...

Viva Magglio
08-07-2004, 08:40 PM
Ozzie's postgame press conference:

:ozzie = :jauron

HomeFish
08-07-2004, 08:40 PM
http://www.matthawkins.co.uk/guts-se/graphics/end_credits/bomb.jpg

Hey, Shingo IS from Hiroshima. It was gonna happen eventually.

JB98
08-07-2004, 08:40 PM
I don't know. He was due for a blown save and he was behind in the count. Lawton knew what was coming and he hammered it.

All closers blow saves. This is just a really bad time for this to happen to Shingo. Just when you think it can't get any worse, it does. I'm ruining my life with this garbage. Maybe I need to stop watching.

Frater Perdurabo
08-07-2004, 08:40 PM
Bob Wickman I believe was part of the Steve Sax deal along with Melido Perez after the end of the 1991 season. Pin that one on Ron Schueler.

Lip
After reading that, this teetotaler needs a cold one.... :gulp: ... or three. :angry:

JRIG
08-07-2004, 08:41 PM
Worst White Sox season to stomach...ever...
Please...

2003 was much worse. 2001 was much worse. 1997 was much worse.

Although, I guess my expectations weren't as high as some for this season. I predicted 79 wins for the club.

RKMeibalane
08-07-2004, 08:42 PM
When/why/for whom did we trade Bob Wickman years ago?
Here is a recap of the Wickman trade, courtesy of Retrosheet:

Traded by Chicago White Sox (http://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/TM_CHA1992.htm) with Melido Perez (http://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/Pperem001.htm) and Domingo Jean (http://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/Pjeand001.htm) to New York Yankees (http://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/TM_NYA1992.htm) in exchange for Steve Sax (http://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/Psax-s001.htm) (January 10, 1992 (http://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/01101992.htm)).

Viva Magglio
08-07-2004, 08:43 PM
Please...

2003 was much worse. 2001 was much worse. 1997 was much worse.

Although, I guess my expectations weren't as high as some for this season. I predicted 79 wins for the club.
This season makes 2003 look like a hop along the primrose path.

Jurr
08-07-2004, 08:44 PM
Man oh man oh man. Can it get any worse? We were 10 games up two weeks ago and now we're in third and about to hit .500. Wow.

This really sucks, and I can't remember in my 20 years of being a Sox fan ever seeing this team plummet so badly. Yes, there have been spurts where we were absolutely horrible (like after the Oakland series in 2002 or after Billy Koch's blown save in Tampa), but it's never been like this. We're snakebitten. And, there's nobody to turn to for help. It is over.

Now that we all know the team is through, I am hoping that the management makes a bid to entertain us by allowing youngsters to get a break in the bigs. That would be a great thing to see, sort of like in 2002 when Crede, Olivo, and that bunch had a half season to excite the crowd.

I AM GOING TO EMBRACE THIS SUCKFEST AS A REMINDER OF HOW GOOD THINGS WILL BE FEELING WHEN THIS TEAM FINALLY WINS A WORLD SERIES.

WhiteSoxFan84
08-07-2004, 08:44 PM
Bob Wickman I believe was part of the Steve Sax deal along with Melido Perez after the end of the 1991 season. Pin that one on Ron Schueler.

Lip i think you're a little off on that. wickman was part of the ron santo deal in which the sox gave wickman up along with pepe the mexican dancing horse to the cubs and then the cubs traded wickman to the indians for a lifetime supply of those we are # 1 foam fingers. come on guys, stay current with these meaningless trades.

who cares if we had wickman, he sucks, he shut us down but who hasn't? brian anderson 2-hit our asses. this team has no heart, no passion, NOTHING. i'll give the cubs credit, at least glendon rusch showed he wanted to play when he took a spot in the rotation earlier this year. so did todd hollandsworth.

Frankfan4life
08-07-2004, 08:44 PM
I love the Sox, but it looks like they won't win squat again this year and it really breaks my heart because I had such high hopes that this would be the year.

How is it possible for this team to be this bad? Every game it seems that another player lets us down. The only thing to figure out now is who will do it tomorrow?

samram
08-07-2004, 08:44 PM
Well, at least the Sox aren't bothering to give us any false hope just to let us down. They seem to be completely satisfied to be absolutely awful.

LincolnSquareOz
08-07-2004, 08:45 PM
First time poster. I'm sick to my stomach.

RKMeibalane
08-07-2004, 08:45 PM
:walnuts :crede :manos

(singing) "And we're free... free fallin!"

Aidan
08-07-2004, 08:45 PM
Bob Wickman I believe was part of the Steve Sax deal along with Melido Perez after the end of the 1991 season. Pin that one on Ron Schueler.

LipThe Indians bullpen has been bolstered by our old scrubs (Bob Wickman and Bobby Howry). Sad.

vegyrex
08-07-2004, 08:46 PM
http://www.trinityofiniquity.com/srs4/pp.jpg

:(:

munchman33
08-07-2004, 08:46 PM
First time poster. I'm sick to my stomach.
Hey welcome aboard!

And me too. Just when I thought things couldn't get worse. :(:

RKMeibalane
08-07-2004, 08:46 PM
First time poster. I'm sick to my stomach.
Welcome aboard!

samram
08-07-2004, 08:46 PM
This season makes 2003 look like a hop along the primrose path.
Yeah, at least the 2003 team gave us false hope until mid-September- God bless those guys.

inta
08-07-2004, 08:47 PM
man, i checked the score in the 8th and saw us up... no big deal, but that's nice.

now i check the score and see us lose.... i honestly started laughing out loud.

un-freakin-believable.


all i can do is laugh at how pathetic this team is.

TEAR THIS TEAM DOWN!

PaleHoseGeorge
08-07-2004, 08:48 PM
This season makes 2003 look like a hop along the primrose path.
We were in first place in September and blew it, mostly because our *manager* was still around to **** things up 2 full years after everybody knew he should have been dismissed... and now you want us to believe falling apart in late-July/early-August is worse?

:kukoo:

JB98
08-07-2004, 08:48 PM
First time poster. I'm sick to my stomach.

Welcome to hell.

Bruck35
08-07-2004, 08:48 PM
I AM GOING TO EMBRACE THIS SUCKFEST AS A REMINDER OF HOW GOOD THINGS WILL BE FEELING WHEN THIS TEAM FINALLY WINS A WORLD SERIES. LMAO! :tongue:

That's a great quote. Though I'd be more willing to embrace this suckfest if I KNEW they'd be winning a World Series in my lifetime

Frankfan4life
08-07-2004, 08:48 PM
First time poster. I'm sick to my stomach.Welcome, and please use the bucket.

Viva Magglio
08-07-2004, 08:48 PM
man, i checked the score in the 8th and saw us up... no big deal, but that's nice.

now i check the score and see us lose.... i honestly started laughing out loud.

un-freakin-believable.


all i can do is laugh at how pathetic this team is.

TEAR THIS TEAM DOWN!
We haven't reached fun-bad yet, but we will soon enough.

quakeroats
08-07-2004, 08:50 PM
We deserved to lose this game, not because of Takatsu (he was due to blow a game), but because we still cant get a consistent offense going. Ever since the Maggs injury the lineup has hit worse than any Sox team I can remember. The sad thing is the lineup we have is actually a 'good' talent lineup. It's not as terrible as it should be, even without Maggs and Thomas. I seriously think the team should look to trading some of these guys through waivers... we need to regroup for this season and next year.

:whiner:

JRIG
08-07-2004, 08:51 PM
We were in first place in September and blew it, mostly because our *manager* was still around to **** things up 2 full years after everybody knew he should have been dismissed... and now you want us to believe falling apart in late-July/early-August is worse?

:kukoo:
Exactly. When I get my prostate checked, I don't tell the doctor to make it as time-consuming and painful as possible. The quicker the better. I'd rather this team show its true colors in July than in the 2nd week of September again.

White Sox Baseball: The Prostate Exam That Never Ends

LincolnSquareOz
08-07-2004, 08:51 PM
This, coupled with being subjected to in-depth coverage of Maddux's 300th win, means no Chicago media for me tonight.

Viva Magglio
08-07-2004, 08:52 PM
Here I go!!!

:chunks

JB98
08-07-2004, 08:52 PM
This reminds me of 2001, when we started the year off 14-29. All the good vibes from 2000 went right out the window. Likewise, all the good vibes from the first 3 1/2 months of this season have gone out the window in about two weeks. It's hard to believe that two weeks ago tonight, I was at the Cell, celebrating Crede's walk-off to put us in first place. This is just so awful that I can't even put the feeling into words.

Viva Magglio
08-07-2004, 08:52 PM
Exactly. When I get my prostate checked, I don't tell the doctor to make it as time-consuming and painful as possible. The quicker the better. I'd rather this team show its true colors in July than in the 2nd week of September again.

White Sox Baseball: The Prostate Exam That Never Ends
Post of the week!

Aidan
08-07-2004, 08:53 PM
At least I have this team to blame for my alcoholism. I'm going to crack open a 30-pack. :whiner: :gulp: :whiner: :gulp: :whiner: :gulp:

mjmcend
08-07-2004, 08:54 PM
When it's this bad, this 'unlucky' this pathetic, all you can do is laugh and pop another cold one.


Lip
Amen to that.

Viva Magglio
08-07-2004, 08:55 PM
Wills mentions WSI...

chisoxfanforever
08-07-2004, 08:55 PM
This, coupled with being subjected to in-depth coverage of Maddux's 300th win, means no Chicago media for me tonight.

I'm surprised they didnt break in on all the local stations with the Maddux story. I am so depressed. I think I am just going to skip watching for awhile. Pass the Prozac please!:(:

Jurr
08-07-2004, 08:55 PM
The last two weeks have felt like a long root canal by a deaf dentist who has no idea you're not numb.

Gimm
08-07-2004, 08:56 PM
We were in first place in September and blew it, mostly because our *manager* was still around to **** things up 2 full years after everybody knew he should have been dismissed... and now you want us to believe falling apart in late-July/early-August is worse?

:kukoo:
Both 2003 and 2004 are both horrible, end of story.

Thanks, Jerry. Maybe you rot in hell.

kojak
08-07-2004, 08:57 PM
IMHO, you "Towel Throwers" are victims of your own unrealistic expectations.

Face it, we are a .500 team at best without #30 & #35 (and we are about to prove it). The awful baseball we have seen the last couple of weeks should come as no surprise to a team that has lost their 2 best players. And there is nothing any of us, KW included, can do about it.

It's just one a them racin' deals...

I still have very high hopes for 2005, which is where my focus will turn. We have a solid Big Three of Buerhle, Garcia and Contreras. We have some issues to deal with for sure, but I think they holes will get filled and we will be ready to rock the world come spring.

But it just isn't meant to be in 2004.

Here's to a Cardinals/A's World Series....:gulp:

starboy0
08-07-2004, 08:57 PM
Got tickets for Monday's game. It is going to be hard to see them fall below .500 that night.

At the start of the season used to go to games expecting them to win. Midseason went to games thinking we could be able to win as long as it wasn't the 5th starter day. Now I go wondering how will they throw it away?

Viva Magglio
08-07-2004, 08:58 PM
:selljerry:selljerry:selljerry
:selljerry:selljerry:selljerry

Viva Magglio
08-07-2004, 08:59 PM
Got tickets for Monday's game. It is going to be hard to see them fall below .500 that night.

At the start of the season used to go to games expecting them to win. Midseason went to games thinking we could be able to win as long as it wasn't the 5th starter day. Now I go wondering how will they throw it away?
During the game, when we went up 5-3, I actually bought a ticket for Monday's wake, uh, ballgame.

Gimm
08-07-2004, 09:00 PM
This, coupled with being subjected to in-depth coverage of Maddux's 300th win, means no Chicago media for me tonight.
Funny you should mention that.......Can you say Cubs, 2004 World Series Champs?

RKMeibalane
08-07-2004, 09:01 PM
Funny you should mention that.......Can you say Cubs, 2004 World Series Champs?
Even mentioning the Cubs as champions is borderline trolling. Be careful. :smile:

whtsx1959
08-07-2004, 09:01 PM
soon we wont the worst team above .500

Viva Magglio
08-07-2004, 09:03 PM
soon we wont the worst team above .500
That is because we'll be below .500 very soon!

Frater Perdurabo
08-07-2004, 09:04 PM
Here's to a Cardinals/A's World Series....:gulp:
Hey, if the Sox can't make it an I-55 Series, then I'll drink to Cards/A's. :bandance:

RKMeibalane
08-07-2004, 09:05 PM
That is because we'll be below .500 very soon!
:reinsy

"And it's ALL YOUR FAULT!"

Fungo
08-07-2004, 09:08 PM
It's still early, there's plenty of games to play.
At least Minnesota lost too.
The Twins have a tough schedule this month.
We're in the EASY part of our schedule.
<teal>
:chickenlittle
<teal/>

dcb33
08-07-2004, 09:09 PM
Ozzie's postgame press conference:

:ozzie = :jauron
Speaking of Jaroun, if I didn't know any better I'd swear he was playing RF for the Sox....

http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/images/players/action/ph_400021.jpg :jauron

Aidan
08-07-2004, 09:11 PM
Speaking of Jaroun, if I didn't know any better I'd swear he was playing RF for the Sox....

http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/images/players/action/ph_400021.jpg :jauronYep, same dumb "deer caught in the headlights" look.

MRKARNO
08-07-2004, 09:11 PM
Hey, if the Sox can't make it an I-55 Series, then I'll drink to Cards/A's. :bandance:
I think that even a Yankees-Cards series would be exciting too, even though I don't like the Yankees all that much. Obviously I'd rather see Oakland, but Yanks-Cards would involve the two best teams in baseball and it would be cool seeing the team that has won the most world series going against the team that has won the most in the NL and second most overall.

Viva Magglio
08-07-2004, 09:12 PM
Speaking of Jaroun, if I didn't know any better I'd swear he was playing RF for the Sox....

http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/images/players/action/ph_400021.jpg :jauron
:jauron
"That's not my field, but I'm in that field."

Shoeless Joe
08-07-2004, 09:15 PM
These losses are becoming numbing and apathetic. 2004 is quickly becoming ten times as bad as 2003. But hey at least we can't possibly fall into last place right? Or at least I think...

LincolnSquareOz
08-07-2004, 09:17 PM
Scott Elarton is pitching tomorrow and he's been dirt all season long. Of course, that's what I thought before facing Brian Anderson too.

I apologize if this has been covered before...anyone know if there is a date set yet for the Phillie make-up game?

MRKARNO
08-07-2004, 09:22 PM
But hey at least we can't possibly fall into last place right? Or at least I think...
Unless the Sox go 15-40, I think we're pretty safe from last place. Fourth is another story though...

whtsx1959
08-07-2004, 09:25 PM
phillies make up is aug 30 1:05
its on the whitesox.com schedule

quakeroats
08-07-2004, 09:32 PM
What gets me is if you look at the Twins batting lineup and there stats... they look about equal or even a tad worse than the Sox talent wise. MY point is the sox are playing baseball with the idea of a Maggs and Frank in the lineup.. hit the longball and win the game. But now that they're out we haven't switched gears to tune our offense to its talents. Again, look at the Twins starting lineup. Besides Stewart and Ford the Twins have as equal a lineup as the Sox... with equally bad obp guys and equally bad averages. On paper the Sox have a rotation with three solid starters, our bullpen is actually solid enough to hold a lead and I seriosuly think Garland and Schoenwise are about par in the AL for bottom rotation starters. The Twins are probably the 'worst' of the first place teams in both leagues, but year in year out they seem to get it done. I don't get it sometimes....

:whiner:

Gimm
08-07-2004, 09:33 PM
IMHO, you "Towel Throwers" are victims of your own unrealistic expectations.

Face it, we are a .500 team at best without #30 & #35 (and we are about to prove it). BS.

We were 10 games over .500 as of 2 weeks ago - with a gazzillion games against mediocre Twins, Tigers, Royals and Indians coming up on the August schedule. Furthermore, we only had Freddy Garcia for less than 1 month at that point.

All we had to do is get someone like Larry Walker (in addition to smaller pieces like Robbie and Lofton, of course) or even Mike Cameron and this team wouldn't have gone into corpseball mode - we'd be right in the thick of things, probably atop the division, certainly not 7 games out of 1st. 6 of the last 8 losses were of 1-run variety, for crying outloud!

Sox knew Thomas and Magglio were pretty much done for the season one way or another before we began the Det-Min home stand - hell, half the people here knew that deep down. So what did the our oh-so-wise management do (note: the question asks what they actually accomplished, NOT what they half-arsedly claim they tried to accomplish) to help prop up/revive the offense and thus take the pressure off Buerhle, Garcia, Contreras, Garland to perform miracles, essentially ensuring this team generates enough momentum to FLY through the cake-walk August schedule?

Answer: NOTHING.

It speaks volumes that even the dirt-cheap spark plug Robbie Alomar wasn't acquired until the offense was already in a DEEP existential funk and the team had lost 9 of 11 to the bottom-feeders of the AL. I do not believe for a second they tried to get Delgado or Larry Walker - KW is bad liar.

At this point I would normally accuse ownership of CRIMINAL NEGLIGENCE, but it occurs to me that it's been the club's modus operandi pretty much for the duration of the JR tenure -- one doesn't need to go further for an example than the embarassingly low 50 Mill payroll JR tried to sneak past our attention spans during the All-Star Game year (2003) when just a couple of extra Mill spent on a 5th starter circa May would have probably resulted in a divisional title and maybe, just maybe, a World Series ring - we certainly dominated those Spankees in their house in September, didn't we?

I now realize that it was pure naivette to expect anything OTHER than cheapness and short-sightedness and lies from these greedy snakes, er, hard-core businessmen in the first place....."Commitment to winning", uh-huh. :rolleyes: :redneck :rolling:


...

LASOXFAN
08-07-2004, 09:37 PM
:pudge

"You think I'd let these lolly gaggers get away with this...lollygagging? Should've hired me!"

Fungo
08-07-2004, 09:44 PM
Unless the Sox go 15-40, I think we're pretty safe from last place. Fourth is another story though...The Angels are currently beating the Royals, so we shouldn't have to worry about gaining any ground on last place tonight.

Soxzilla
08-07-2004, 09:46 PM
:eloaiza:
":rolling: :rolling: :rolling: "

As for me....

:dunno:

AnkleSox
08-07-2004, 10:11 PM
Unless the Sox go 15-40, I think we're pretty safe from last place. Fourth is another story though...

15-40 doesn't seem like such a tough thing for the sox to do nowadays....:angry:

WHarris13
08-07-2004, 10:15 PM
:wink:
http://img8.exs.cx/img8/740/IdiotsGuide1.jpg

HITMEN OF 77
08-07-2004, 10:24 PM
Bad, Bad, Bad tonight, that one hurt. Still only 5.5 out in the wild card. Tomorrow the SOX WILL WIN. I'm 1 for 1 on this after I promised victory last Sunday over the Motor City Kitties

SomebodyToldMe
08-07-2004, 10:35 PM
:wink:
http://img8.exs.cx/img8/7399/IdiotsGuide.jpg

:rolling: :roflmao:
wow!

that.
is.
awesome!

thanks! i needed that.

JB98
08-07-2004, 10:44 PM
:wink:
http://img8.exs.cx/img8/7399/IdiotsGuide.jpg

I think you should put Crede's picture on the cover. He's really the poster child for the 2004 Sox.

WHarris13
08-07-2004, 10:45 PM
I think you should put Crede's picture on the cover. He's really the poster child for the 2004 Sox.If I could find a good one I would.
Lemme go look.
Couldn't find a good one of Crede, but Jose making an error should suffice.

CarlosMay'sThumb
08-07-2004, 11:22 PM
BS.

We were 10 games over .500 as of 2 weeks ago - with a gazzillion games against mediocre Twins, Tigers, Royals and Indians coming up on the August schedule. Furthermore, we only had Freddy Garcia for less than 1 month at that point.

All we had to do is get someone like Larry Walker (in addition to smaller pieces like Robbie and Lofton, of course) or even Mike Cameron and this team wouldn't have gone into corpseball mode - we'd be right in the thick of things, probably atop the division, certainly not 7 games out of 1st. 6 of the last 8 losses were of 1-run variety, for crying outloud!

Sox knew Thomas and Magglio were pretty much done for the season one way or another before we began the Det-Min home stand - hell, half the people here knew that deep down. So what did the our oh-so-wise management do (note: the question asks what they actually accomplished, NOT what they half-arsedly claim they tried to accomplish) to help prop up/revive the offense and thus take the pressure off Buerhle, Garcia, Contreras, Garland to perform miracles, essentially ensuring this team generates enough momentum to FLY through the cake-walk August schedule?

Answer: NOTHING.

It speaks volumes that even the dirt-cheap spark plug Robbie Alomar wasn't acquired until the offense was already in a DEEP existential funk and the team had lost 9 of 11 to the bottom-feeders of the AL. I do not believe for a second they tried to get Delgado or Larry Walker - KW is bad liar.

At this point I would normally accuse ownership of CRIMINAL NEGLIGENCE, but it occurs to me that it's been the club's modus operandi pretty much for the duration of the JR tenure -- one doesn't need to go further for an example than the embarassingly low 50 Mill payroll JR tried to sneak past our attention spans during the All-Star Game year (2003) when just a couple of extra Mill spent on a 5th starter circa May would have probably resulted in a divisional title and maybe, just maybe, a World Series ring - we certainly dominated those Spankees in their house in September, didn't we?

I now realize that it was pure naivette to expect anything OTHER than cheapness and short-sightedness and lies from these greedy snakes, er, hard-core businessmen in the first place....."Commitment to winning", uh-huh. :rolleyes: :redneck
:worship:
Couldn't agree more. I've always been a Reinsdorf apologist because it seemed to me he was spending as much as some successful teams like the Twins and As. But the fact is that letting a guy like KW spend money is just wasting it. This guy has no clue which direction he wants to go.

Now that the rebuilding Indians are officially better than the Sox, I think it's time to fire Kenny and get somebody who knows what they're doing in here. The Sox need to go in either one of two directions: either go very young and be bad for 3-4 years (like the Indians) while the Cubs continue to play excellent ball or spend as much money as the Cubs and get better in a hurry. I don't think the Sox can survive as a franchise if they get real bad while the Cubs are great so I think they'll have to spend their way out. This would require Reinsdorf selling the team, which I now hope he'll do. After 23 years of losing he's got to realize that he just can't bring us fans a winner.

Thunderstruck30
08-07-2004, 11:41 PM
If the Sox were to play the winner of the Little League World Series, Id have to put my money on the little leaguers. Even 12 year olds know how to play with heart and determination.

StillMissOzzie
08-08-2004, 12:16 AM
First time poster. I'm sick to my stomach.To quote James T. Kirk from the Star Trek movie with the whales, "You're not seeing us at our best"


SMO
:angry: :whiner:

JB98
08-08-2004, 12:44 AM
:worship:
Couldn't agree more. I've always been a Reinsdorf apologist because it seemed to me he was spending as much as some successful teams like the Twins and As. But the fact is that letting a guy like KW spend money is just wasting it. This guy has no clue which direction he wants to go.

Now that the rebuilding Indians are officially better than the Sox, I think it's time to fire Kenny and get somebody who knows what they're doing in here. The Sox need to go in either one of two directions: either go very young and be bad for 3-4 years (like the Indians) while the Cubs continue to play excellent ball or spend as much money as the Cubs and get better in a hurry. I don't think the Sox can survive as a franchise if they get real bad while the Cubs are great so I think they'll have to spend their way out. This would require Reinsdorf selling the team, which I now hope he'll do. After 23 years of losing he's got to realize that he just can't bring us fans a winner.
I'd hate to see us act on the basis of what the Cubs are doing. I don't buy this notion that the Sox are going to become extinct if they struggle while the Cubs are doing well. I don't care if the Sox lose 100 and the Cubs win it all, I'm still a Sox fan. And I know a lot of people who feel the same way. There will always be faithful out there, many of whom post on this Web site.

I'm probably going to catch hell for this, but I don't think we need to blow this team up. We just need to get stronger up the middle. We finally found a CF with Rowand stepping up this year. However, 2B, SS and C are all sore points on this team. We have the power producers at the corners. Now, we need some speed and defense up the middle. If we can get that, plus another arm or two for the bullpen, we can win next year.

Lip Man 1
08-08-2004, 01:27 AM
It's like I mentioned a few days ago... Williams is a bad fit because he wants to win right now, regardless of costs.

Ownership does not have that same mentality. So ownership needs to bring in another 'Larry Himes' type who knows how to build an excellent, productive farm system.

I'm not advocating that option however at least it would be a cohesive plan.

Right now Kenny's attitude sticks out like a sore thumb in this organization.

As Bob Vanderberg said in his WSI Interview, this organization has a defeatist attitude.

Lip

OurBitchinMinny
08-08-2004, 03:12 AM
This is why I wouldnt give shingo a blank check for next year. Id like to resign him, but the league is going to figure him out. Looks like the injuns are the first. All the foreign pitchers (ie nomo) get figured out eventually. Theres a reason he played in japan and not here for so many years.

Gimm
08-08-2004, 03:26 AM
2B, SS and C are all sore points on this team.No, they're not.

Valentin had a 900 OPS (which included an insane 'Close and Late' OPS of 1500 as well as very good RO and RISP OPS) in the season's first 3 months when he was coming up in situations where pitchers had to throw him strikes. Unfortunately, with Frank and Maggs down together beginning roughly from the Cubs series in Wrigley, he was forced to replace their production - and with the likes of Gload and Crede "protecting" him in the line-up, pitchers could afford to get him out with breaking balls out of the zone, especially with bases empty, all day long. His OPS took a 100-point dive in a matter of weeks and his clutch indicators plummeted as well as he tried harder and harder to hit that proverbial 3-run homer with noone on base.

What's my point? Don't give Valentin big money (re-sign him to a 1-2 Mill a year deal instead) and certainly don't expect him to carry/save the team next year. However, as a supporting player, as the guy who comes up with to the plate after Frank and Maggs were walked for instance, he could do SCARY amount of damage as he's shown in the first 3 months of this season when despite his learning curve struggles against LHP from the left side and despite the 3 week stint on DL, he was still on pace to 45 HR and 125 RBI (!!!) at one point in late June. As long as the main guys are Thomas, Magglio, Lee and Konerko and the pitchers have no choice but to throw Valentin fastball strikes, he could still be one of the bigger bargains in baseball at 1-2 Mill a year. Trust me.

I think the same thing goes for Uribe - how convenient is it that he totally fell apart after Maggs went down with a bum knee in late May and Thomas was ineffective because of the plant foot fracture in all of June? Pretty much same as Valentin, I honestly believe Uribe can once again be a helluva player if put in a situation where pitchers are so preoccupied with Frank, Maggs, Lee and Konerko, that they have to pitch to him....and BOOM, there it flies 400 feet to RCF!

Willie? Even after a big slump, has a very good OBP against RHP. Get someone like Graffanino to platoon him against LHP for cheap and the 2B "problem" solved as well.

Catcher position is trickier, but Burke and Davis have put up suprisingly good numbers for the Sox this year and are very solid defensively. An area of slight concern, nothing major - Sandy Alomar has actually been a much bigger problem this year believe it or not.

What I am trying to say is that our biggest problem really ISN'T necessarily at 2B (Robbie/Willie) or SS (Jose) or 3B (Crede/Uribe) as is commonly believed. No, our problem is and has always been at RF and DH positions, or if you prefer at 3-4 "money" spots in the line-up -- healthy Thomas and Ordonez are monsters who strike fear into the opposintg pitchers and who make role players like Valentin, Harris and Uribe rise to heights they couldn't otherwise reach. Without Frank and Maggs, things simply don't work as we found out in July.

Fix those two needs (by either re-signing Frank and Maggs, or getting comparable superstars in their place) and you'll have NO difficulty scoring runs in 2005, which should only make Garcia, Buerhle, Contreras, Garland and Diaz more effective.

samram
08-08-2004, 03:30 AM
This is why I wouldnt give shingo a blank check for next year. Id like to resign him, but the league is going to figure him out. Looks like the injuns are the first. All the foreign pitchers (ie nomo) get figured out eventually. Theres a reason he played in japan and not here for so many years.
Good point. I remember someone earlier in the year posting something about making Shingo a starter, but he is a guy who relies on lot on what is almost a gimmick pitch, and eventually guys get used to seeing it. OTOH, it was his first blown save, and I think he'll adjust to the league a little bit too, maybe mixing in his fastball more. I guess now he has at least two months of pressure free baseball to prove he can do it.

Gimm
08-08-2004, 03:32 AM
This is why I wouldnt give shingo a blank check for next year. Id like to resign him, but the league is going to figure him out. Looks like the injuns are the first. All the foreign pitchers (ie nomo) get figured out eventually. Theres a reason he played in japan and not here for so many years.
Nobody figured him out tonight. He fell behind in the count, threw a get-me-over pitch and that's all she wrote.

Shingo with control is pretty unhittable. Shingo without control is very human.

samram
08-08-2004, 03:39 AM
Nobody figured him out tonight. He fell behind in the count, threw a get-me-over pitch and that's all she wrote.

Shingo with control is pretty unhittable. Shingo without control is very human.
Well, there's no doubt that the consequences of this game (knocking us back into third, etc) magnify what otherwise would just be a bad game for him. Like I said before, he now has two months of pressure free baseball to show he can get guys out the second or third time he sees them.

Patrick134
08-08-2004, 04:07 AM
A lot of nonsense talk in here. Shingo had control problems all inning, and it bit him, like it does every closer not named gagne. the sox just had a horrendous 2 wek stretch. They will heat up again, but it's anybody's guess if that will be too late. While i hate using frank/mags as an excuse, this team was basically built around these guys. Guys like carlos and Paulie are great as your 3rd and 4th best guys, but when theyre you're top 2, and can get pitched around more readily, you're in trouble.

There are plenty of positives blooming, like rowand's emergence. The team just seems snakebit recently. What sickens me is that i pictured that game being blown like it was before the inning even started. Thats not a knock on Shingo,just a general uneasy feeling that comes from watching the last 2 weeks. This team is trying, you can see that. To just look at losses and declare they have no heart is lame. Often too much heart makes them press and try too hard. Remember the 2000 playoffs ? Our guys were all popping out because they all wanted to be the hero.

I think this years sox will get hot, and be back in the race. Will they get past the twins ? who knows. but if you look beyond just the win/loss column, this team is fighting their behinds off every night to catch a break and ride it to a winning streak.

SpringfldFan
08-08-2004, 10:33 AM
If I drank I'd be drunk :whiner: .

JB98
08-08-2004, 12:08 PM
No, they're not.

Valentin had a 900 OPS (which included an insane 'Close and Late' OPS of 1500 as well as very good RO and RISP OPS) in the season's first 3 months when he was coming up in situations where pitchers had to throw him strikes. Unfortunately, with Frank and Maggs down together beginning roughly from the Cubs series in Wrigley, he was forced to replace their production - and with the likes of Gload and Crede "protecting" him in the line-up, pitchers could afford to get him out with breaking balls out of the zone, especially with bases empty, all day long. His OPS took a 100-point dive in a matter of weeks and his clutch indicators plummeted as well as he tried harder and harder to hit that proverbial 3-run homer with noone on base.

What's my point? Don't give Valentin big money (re-sign him to a 1-2 Mill a year deal instead) and certainly don't expect him to carry/save the team next year. However, as a supporting player, as the guy who comes up with to the plate after Frank and Maggs were walked for instance, he could do SCARY amount of damage as he's shown in the first 3 months of this season when despite his learning curve struggles against LHP from the left side and despite the 3 week stint on DL, he was still on pace to 45 HR and 125 RBI (!!!) at one point in late June. As long as the main guys are Thomas, Magglio, Lee and Konerko and the pitchers have no choice but to throw Valentin fastball strikes, he could still be one of the bigger bargains in baseball at 1-2 Mill a year. Trust me.

I think the same thing goes for Uribe - how convenient is it that he totally fell apart after Maggs went down with a bum knee in late May and Thomas was ineffective because of the plant foot fracture in all of June? Pretty much same as Valentin, I honestly believe Uribe can once again be a helluva player if put in a situation where pitchers are so preoccupied with Frank, Maggs, Lee and Konerko, that they have to pitch to him....and BOOM, there it flies 400 feet to RCF!

Willie? Even after a big slump, has a very good OBP against RHP. Get someone like Graffanino to platoon him against LHP for cheap and the 2B "problem" solved as well.

Catcher position is trickier, but Burke and Davis have put up suprisingly good numbers for the Sox this year and are very solid defensively. An area of slight concern, nothing major - Sandy Alomar has actually been a much bigger problem this year believe it or not.

What I am trying to say is that our biggest problem really ISN'T necessarily at 2B (Robbie/Willie) or SS (Jose) or 3B (Crede/Uribe) as is commonly believed. No, our problem is and has always been at RF and DH positions, or if you prefer at 3-4 "money" spots in the line-up -- healthy Thomas and Ordonez are monsters who strike fear into the opposintg pitchers and who make role players like Valentin, Harris and Uribe rise to heights they couldn't otherwise reach. Without Frank and Maggs, things simply don't work as we found out in July.

Fix those two needs (by either re-signing Frank and Maggs, or getting comparable superstars in their place) and you'll have NO difficulty scoring runs in 2005, which should only make Garcia, Buerhle, Contreras, Garland and Diaz more effective.
Dude, slow down. Maggs isn't coming back, and who knows whether Frank will be healthy? Don't count on JR paying for comparable superstars in their place. We're going to have to retool our infield. I'd keep Uribe around, but I'm done with Valentin and Harris. Of course the absence of Frank and Maggs hurts these players, but there is no excuse to hit .120 for the month of July like those guys did. And don't even get me started about the defense, or lack thereof, that these guys play. We're fine at the corner positions, except for 3B. Up the middle, we stink.

Gimm
08-08-2004, 12:27 PM
Dude, slow down. Maggs isn't coming back, and who knows whether Frank will be healthy? Don't count on JR paying for comparable superstars in their place. .If that's the case, no amount of Orlando Cabreras, Luis Rivas and Greg Zauns are gonna help you. Stick a fork in us, if that's the case....which of course it won't be because even JR is not this cheap/stupid.

but there is no excuse to hit .120 for the month of July like those guys did.Yes, there is an excuse and a compelling one at that. Valentin in particular showed that he could be an awesome force in the first 3 months of the season when he didn't have to be THE man. That's just the player he is, and if you can get him for 1-2 Mill next year, you'd be INSANE not to do it....unless of course you plan on rebuilding the team, Tampa Bay style in which case you might as well let him go.


And don't even get me started about the defense, or lack thereof, that these guys play.
Yes, don't get started. Because when the various 2004 range and defensive Win Shares numbers come out in the off-season (as was the case in 2003), both Valentin and Harris will be in the upper 50% for their respective positions defensively, easily. In fact, Willie might actually win a Gold Glove one day.

StepsInSC
08-08-2004, 12:34 PM
Theres a reason he played in japan and not here for so many years.I'm not arguing with the fact that he might be figured by the league, but "the reason" he played in Japan for his career isn't necessarily because he couldn't of cut it in the majors for any length of time, its because he's Japanese and the current posting system of getting Japanese players to the MLB is only a couple of years old. Before then getting over was next to impossible except for a loophole where one could come over if they declared retirement, but they still had to risk being seen as a traitor to their team, teammates, and entire country.

I agree he does not deserve a blank check, but he is afterall Japanese and you can bet your bottom dollar that he won't be looking to "cash in", so he can probably be had for a very reasonable price.

OEO Magglio
08-08-2004, 12:46 PM
I guess our questions about how Shingo would do as teams got more and more looks at him have been answered....Oh c'mon man. He blew a stinking save, he's been lights out all year, he's already faced many teams over and over again. Your going to blow a save, things happen.

OEO Magglio
08-08-2004, 12:48 PM
This is why I wouldnt give shingo a blank check for next year. Id like to resign him, but the league is going to figure him out. Looks like the injuns are the first. All the foreign pitchers (ie nomo) get figured out eventually. Theres a reason he played in japan and not here for so many years.Wow, you guys got to be kidding me. Nobody is figuring shingo out, people have bad games, give me an f'n break.

flo-B-flo
08-08-2004, 01:49 PM
Wow, you guys got to be kidding me. Nobody is figuring shingo out, people have bad games, give me an f'n break. I totally agree. One batter has him figured out? He got behind, he threw it in there, the guy crushed it. He'll see the guy again and get him out.