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View Full Version : It's not Ozzie's fault


Whitesox029
08-06-2004, 10:46 PM
Who is with me in saying that this sudden early end to our season hopes is not Ozzie's fault, nor has any losing team's record ever been the manager's fault. GMs fire managers for fresh blood when things don't go well. If the team wins, the manager will stick around a while. Manuel would have been gone after '02 had we not won in 2000. Clearly last year was not his fault because it's happening again. This year is not Ozzie's fault because we have the same players as last year--thus, they will perform the same way they did last year, which means a duplicate season. Ozzie's last season as manager will be '06 unless we win a division in '05 or '06.

HomeFish
08-06-2004, 10:48 PM
I would argue that our early season success was largely the fault of Ozzie.

Whitesox029
08-06-2004, 10:50 PM
I would argue that our early season success was largely the fault of Ozzie.his fault? If it was him at all I would say it was his virtue, not his fault.

cheeses_h_rice
08-06-2004, 10:51 PM
I think you have to give a first year manager the benefit of the doubt.

However, Ozzie has made some ill-advised lineup changes this year, and our general level of dumb play has to have a root in the management of the team. Also, I really don't think Ozzie and his crew scout other teams very well before we face them, and that is a persistent problem with the White Sox organization. I just don't get the sense that the Sox approach their games with any sort of analytical/empirical/research-based mindset.

HomeFish
08-06-2004, 10:57 PM
his fault? If it was him at all I would say it was his virtue, not his fault.

That wouldn't parallel well with the thread title, though.

JB98
08-06-2004, 11:11 PM
Who is with me in saying that this sudden early end to our season hopes is not Ozzie's fault, nor has any losing team's record ever been the manager's fault. GMs fire managers for fresh blood when things don't go well. If the team wins, the manager will stick around a while. Manuel would have been gone after '02 had we not won in 2000. Clearly last year was not his fault because it's happening again. This year is not Ozzie's fault because we have the same players as last year--thus, they will perform the same way they did last year, which means a duplicate season. Ozzie's last season as manager will be '06 unless we win a division in '05 or '06.

I'm with you is saying this is not Ozzie's fault, but we DON'T have the same team as last year. Last year, Frank and Maggs were healthy all year. We had a Cy Young candidate in Loaiza, and Colon was a horse as an innings-eater. We had Tony G. around to play SS against lefties and save us from Valentin's ridiculous strikeouts. We also had Gordon in the bullpen, and his presence is sorely missed on this club. I don't think there's much question we are a weaker team this year, and I'd be stunned if we are able to even duplicate the 86-76 mark of 2003.

I_Liked_Manuel
08-06-2004, 11:19 PM
i'd be willing to argue that the season went downhill when ozzie wouldnt retaliate against minnesota. warranted or not, we should have retaliated. i know we're not the same team without maggs and frank, but this team right now has no passion or as hawk puts it 'swagger'. THIS can be directly traced back to ozzie. a lot of the people on here need to ask themselves if ozzie had not played for the sox, would they be turning a blind eye to many of his glaring mistakes?

Soxzilla
08-06-2004, 11:20 PM
I'm with you is saying this is not Ozzie's fault, but we DON'T have the same team as last year. Last year, Frank and Maggs were healthy all year. We had a Cy Young candidate in Loaiza, and Colon was a horse as an innings-eater. We had Tony G. around to play SS against lefties and save us from Valentin's ridiculous strikeouts. We also had Gordon in the bullpen, and his presence is sorely missed on this club. I don't think there's much question we are a weaker team this year, and I'd be stunned if we are able to even duplicate the 86-76 mark of 2003.
Shingo makes flash gordon look like crap.

Koch is gone.

We have Freddy Garcia now. (Who I'd take over colon in a heartbeat)

And I think our bench has some decent depth, at least as much as last year. (Too bad half our starting lineup are bench players on most other teams...)

We SHOULD be a much better theam this year. It just shows how much frank and magglio are missed right now. :mad:

JB98
08-07-2004, 12:00 AM
Shingo makes flash gordon look like crap.

Koch is gone.

We have Freddy Garcia now. (Who I'd take over colon in a heartbeat)

And I think our bench has some decent depth, at least as much as last year. (Too bad half our starting lineup are bench players on most other teams...)

We SHOULD be a much better theam this year. It just shows how much frank and magglio are missed right now. :mad:

Shingo might make Flash look like crap, but Gordon makes Politte and Jackson look like crap.

We do have Freddy now, and I would take him over Colon. However, we've only had Freddy for seven starts. We had Colon for the whole season.

Decent depth? Last year, Rowand and Harris were our depth. Now, they are starters.

THE_HOOTER
08-07-2004, 12:06 AM
Ozzie plays favorites--it will get more frustrating if they continue to lose.

Its almost hard to evaluate him because the 1st hlaf was so good, yet the 2nd half has been brutal.

Overall, I like his enthusiasm, but I really had a problem with the Hunter play--you just have to defend your team there.

RKMeibalane
08-07-2004, 12:13 AM
Ozzie plays favorites--it will get more frustrating if they continue to lose.
Manuel had his favorites, too.

1. Paul Konerko
2. Royce Clayton
3. Julio Ramirez
4. Josh Paul
5. Jeff Liefer
6. Neal Cotts

On more than one occasion during his final three seasons with the Sox, Manuel opted to use one or more of these players in situations where another player would have helped the team more, simply because he liked them more than the other players.

He chose Konerko over Daubach when Paul was hitting below .185. He chose Clayton over Valentin and Crede, back when we thought Crede would be good. He chose Ramirez over... well, anyone. Josh Paul was awful, as was Jeff Liefer. Cotts may still become a good pitcher, but Manuel's decision to start him against the Yankees was one of the many things that destroyed the 2003 season.

To say that Ozzie Guillen plays favorites probably isn't a fair comment. He does have players that he likes more, but that being the case, he's no diffrent from Manuel. This isn't a new problem by any stretch of the imagination.

THE_HOOTER
08-07-2004, 12:50 AM
When it comes to Ozzie playing favorites, I dont think you quite understand what I mean, and I am not going to explain it because I dont want to start a rumble.

Watch for tendencies from him --he leans towards one side pretty heavily.

fuzzy_patters
08-07-2004, 12:58 AM
When it comes to Ozzie playing favorites, I dont think you quite understand what I mean, and I am not going to explain it because I dont want to start a rumble.

Watch for tendencies from him --he leans towards one side pretty heavily.
I hope you are not suggesting what I think you are suggesting. If you are, have you noticed that Harris has played over Uribe for most of the season? That would not jive with what I think your theory is.

RKMeibalane
08-07-2004, 01:12 AM
I hope you are not suggesting what I think you are suggesting. I agree. I don't want this thread to end up in the Roadhouse.