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JRIG
08-06-2004, 10:49 PM
Now tied for third.

This was a horrible game to watch.

wdelaney72
08-06-2004, 10:50 PM
The ball never even got out of the infield, and Joey Cora thinks Willie is going to score?

Dumb.

cheeses_h_rice
08-06-2004, 10:50 PM
OK, so Borchard gets incredibly lucky with Sabathia's deflection of his sure-groundout, and might actually get on 1st with a man on 3rd.

Instead, "Wheels" Harris decides that he'd rather get thrown out at home by 30 paces to end the game.

:rolleyes:

Good lord is this team pathetic.

We. Suck.

Dub25
08-06-2004, 10:50 PM
Fire Cora now. Nuff said.

THE_HOOTER
08-06-2004, 10:50 PM
Please stop the "we have more talent" crap.

You have to have a brain to have talent.

Huisj
08-06-2004, 10:51 PM
i couldn't watch the game. what happened on the last play? what kind of hit was it? how far out was harris?

Nard
08-06-2004, 10:51 PM
Wow..... uh....... I guess Sporting News knew what they were talking about when ranking Cora as one of the worst third base coaches in the league? :dtroll:

Ozzie runs a house of nepotism around here.

OEO Magglio
08-06-2004, 10:51 PM
New official sox slogan: Finding new ways to lose every single day.

Rocklive99
08-06-2004, 10:51 PM
As I said in the chat, all I could say after that was "IDIOT!"

This team is the laughingstock of the league.

Forget resigning Mags, use the money to payback every cent that White Sox fans have WASTED on this season

wdelaney72
08-06-2004, 10:51 PM
Suck.

MRKARNO
08-06-2004, 10:52 PM
That's 5 one run losses in this losing skid. If Thomas and Maggs are good for a combined two runs a game....well you do the math

ChiSoxJay
08-06-2004, 10:52 PM
I'm still sitting here in amazement as to why Ozzie pinch hit for Burke in the eigth. The guy had a two hit game going...........:?:

Frater Perdurabo
08-06-2004, 10:52 PM
It's official. This team makes Forrest Gump look like Albert Einstein.

cheeses_h_rice
08-06-2004, 10:52 PM
i couldn't watch the game. what happened on the last play? what kind of hit was it? how far out was harris?
Borchard slaps a grounder that bounces over CC's head, he touches the ball and slows its path, but Ronnie Belliard fakes a throw to 1st and pegs it perfectly to home, catching Harris by 10 feet. Harris didn't even touch the base. Of course, he weighs about 150 pounds...just pathetic.

THE_HOOTER
08-06-2004, 10:53 PM
But we have more talent--

Ozzie has no more control than Manuel did.

Even worse, Ozzie has been playing favorites since day one.
If this was Manuel people would be screaming bloody murder.

JRIG
08-06-2004, 10:53 PM
I'm still sitting here in amazement as to why Ozzie pinch hit for Burke in the eigth. The guy had a two hit game going...........:?:
Or forced Rowand, scorching against lefties, to bunt with a man on base.

nitetrain8601
08-06-2004, 10:54 PM
Bad call for Cora. Anyone could tell you to have Willie stay on 3rd. That was a stupid mistake. Anyway, Twins look like they're going to lose. We're losing our chance.

Viva Magglio
08-06-2004, 10:54 PM
What more can be said that hasn't been said already.

THE_HOOTER
08-06-2004, 10:54 PM
That's 5 one run losses in this losing skid. If Thomas and Maggs are good for a combined two runs a game....well you do the math
Please stop with that---situations late in the game cannot be excused by injuries.

Dick Allen
08-06-2004, 10:54 PM
Somebody call the coroner, 2004 is dead.

doublem23
08-06-2004, 10:54 PM
But we have more talent--

Sigh... We do have more talent... It's just on the DL. :rolleyes:

Please someone say something original.

wdelaney72
08-06-2004, 10:55 PM
Hawk just said in the Postgame show that "Buehrle was outstanding tonight."

Yes the offense blew, once again and Mark pitched fairly well, but I wouldn't call giving up a 3-run HR in the 2nd inning "outstanding".

WSox8404
08-06-2004, 10:55 PM
Borchard slaps a grounder that bounces over CC's head, he touches the ball and slows its path, but Ronnie Belliard fakes a throw to 1st and pegs it perfectly to home, catching Harris by 10 feet. Harris didn't even touch the base. Of course, he weighs about 150 pounds...just pathetic.
CC wasnt pitching anymore. Howry pitched and then Wickman.

lowestofthelow
08-06-2004, 10:55 PM
I think we can now safely assume the addition of Robbie Alomar will be about as effective as installing a screen door on a submarine.

MRKARNO
08-06-2004, 10:55 PM
Anyway, Twins look like they're going to lose. We're losing our chance.
The Twins finally start to let up a bit and the White Sox can't capitlize for ****. What a shock

Nard
08-06-2004, 10:55 PM
It was a quality start.

You got a problem when you start complaining about quality starts.

doublem23
08-06-2004, 10:56 PM
Please stop with that---situations late in the game cannot be excused by injuries.
Please stop with this. If even one of them is in the line-up, how do you know we even get to situations like this?

http://metropolis.japantoday.com/tokyofeaturestories/372/pics/recordtitle.jpg

wdelaney72
08-06-2004, 10:57 PM
It was a quality start.

You got a problem when you start complaining about quality starts.
Unfortunately, quality starts just aren't enough with this team. It looks like they need shutouts, except for the once a week, double digit blowout.

MRKARNO
08-06-2004, 10:57 PM
Please stop with that---situations late in the game cannot be excused by injuries.
Yeah but who's to say that with Thomas and Maggs in there that there even needs to be a bottom of the 9th? The fact is that when you lose your two best hitters, you're going to lose more of the closer games because of it. The production difference between Maggs/Thomas and Everett/Borchard is sickening.

vegyrex
08-06-2004, 10:57 PM
:corpseball

THE_HOOTER
08-06-2004, 10:58 PM
Sigh... We do have more talent... It's just on the DL. :rolleyes:

Please someone say something original.
B.S.

We may have talent on the DL, but stop saying we have more talent than the Twins--whats your reasoning?

The last few years it was Jerry's fault, now its the injuries.

I dont understand why people think we have more talent.

It takes a lot more talent to win than it does to hit solo HR's and whiff in the late innings.

cheeses_h_rice
08-06-2004, 10:58 PM
CC wasnt pitching anymore. Howry pitched and then Wickman.
Oops, you're right. I even was like "Wow, Gascan is in."

sendimjoey
08-06-2004, 10:58 PM
Did anyone see a replay that indicated whether Cora sent Harris or whether he ran on his own? I thought Buehrle pitched pretty well, but for crying out loud, a home run to Covelli Crisp? Rooney and Farmer said he's hit eight this year -- and I can think of two against the Sox this year. :angry: :angry: :angry:

duke of dorwood
08-06-2004, 10:59 PM
3 runs given up-should be a win. PLEASE get Carlos Lee out of 3 spot.

Please rid me of Willie Harris

owensmouth
08-06-2004, 10:59 PM
Six hits... I missed by one.

Lip Man 1
08-06-2004, 10:59 PM
Like I said this team is simply 'baseball dumb,' and has been for years.

Little things, execution, fundamentals is beyond their understanding or vocabulary.

Lip

Frankfan4life
08-06-2004, 10:59 PM
The battle for second place begins.

cheeses_h_rice
08-06-2004, 10:59 PM
Sigh... We do have more talent... It's just on the DL. :rolleyes:

Please someone say something original.
Doub, the Twins have had their share of injuries this year. Maybe they're the better team?

JRIG
08-06-2004, 10:59 PM
:corpseball
It's not Corpseball if the players are not talented. 6 of the 9 guys we sent up to the plate tonight had virtually no chance against LHP.

THE_HOOTER
08-06-2004, 10:59 PM
Please stop with this. If even one of them is in the line-up, how do you know we even get to situations like this?

http://metropolis.japantoday.com/tokyofeaturestories/372/pics/recordtitle.jpg


Boy I remember them last year being in the lineup and the same meltdown occured.

What makes you think this year would be different???????????????

duke of dorwood
08-06-2004, 11:00 PM
And NO discipline or innovation coming from this manager

Nard
08-06-2004, 11:00 PM
Unfortunately, quality starts just aren't enough with this team. It looks like they need shutouts, except for the once a week, double digit blowout.Well, that goes without saying.

I mean, ****. Last time Burleymon started had a line of 9 IP, 2 ER and still couldn't get the ****ing win.

THE_HOOTER
08-06-2004, 11:02 PM
Like I said this team is simply 'baseball dumb,' and has been for years.

Little things, execution, fundamentals is beyond their understanding or vocabulary.

Lip
Yeah but Lip, come on.

Why is this team rated so high as far as talent goes--because of HR numbers?

We had the lineup last year, and in 2000, and it couldnt compete in crunch time.

I think the talent on this team is HR related, and thats only one part of being talented.

Defense, fundamentals, coaching....how much talent do we lack there?

MRKARNO
08-06-2004, 11:05 PM
Doub, the Twins have had their share of injuries this year. Maybe they're the better team?
The Twins are a more balanced team than the White Sox are so when Stewart goes down to injury, they didnt scuffle too much. The White Sox are dependent on the offense and Thomas and Maggs combined to form the biggest part of that.

The Tom
08-06-2004, 11:06 PM
Whod of thunk LTP would actually deliver in the clutch.....and we'd do something else to lose a game

THE_HOOTER
08-06-2004, 11:07 PM
But how can they be more balanced if we have more talent?


I think the definition of talent around here is Home runs because I cannot see how we are more talented except for that.

Viva Magglio
08-06-2004, 11:08 PM
Did Joey Cora pull a Wendell Kim and wave Harris in? Or did Harris run through the stop sign?

doublem23
08-06-2004, 11:08 PM
The Twins are a more balanced team than the White Sox are so when Stewart goes down to injury, they didnt scuffle too much. The White Sox are dependent on the offense and Thomas and Maggs combined to form the biggest part of that.
That's a nice way to say Frank Thomas and Magglio Ordonez are far better players than Shannon Stewart can ever dream of being. Wow... The Twins lost Stewart, Joe Mauer, and some other morons. Big loss.

THE_HOOTER
08-06-2004, 11:10 PM
That's a nice way to say Frank Thomas and Magglio Ordonez are far better players than Shannon Stewart can ever dream of being. Wow... The Twins lost Stewart, Joe Mauer, and some other morons. Big loss.

That show how much you know about talent.

you must listen to Boers and Bernstein

A. Cavatica
08-06-2004, 11:10 PM
OK, I've seen enough. I'm going back to my preseason prediction: 77 wins.

OEO Magglio
08-06-2004, 11:11 PM
Did Joey Cora pull a Wendell Kim and wave Harris in? Or did Harris run through the stop sign?I'm going to guess it was Joey Cora sending him but that's pure speculation on my part.

Viva Magglio
08-06-2004, 11:12 PM
Score caller implies...

:ozzie = :wanne

I disagree.

doublem23
08-06-2004, 11:12 PM
That show how much you know about talent.

you must listen to Boers and BernsteinFYI, posting the exact same thing 15 times in 10 minutes doesn't make your point have any more validity, it just makes it excessively annoying.

And, if you'd rather have Joe Mauer and Shannon Stewart over Frank and Maggs, well... I can't even think of anything else to write, that's so incredibly ridiculous.

:rolleyes:

DannyCaterFan
08-06-2004, 11:15 PM
:mad: The core players of this team has shown year after year that they have no heart. You can talk about fundamentals all you want, this group just stinks. I have been a fan for 40 years and even some of those lousy teams of 1969 and 1970 that lost over 100 games were entertaining and tried their best. This group of players just go through the motions. How embarrassing it is to be a fan right now, with the Cubs playing well. I say....Break up this team ! Blow em up this off season. Start now if possible. Keep the pitching staff intact and pick up a lineup full of gamers that hit and scrap. I may have to give up my 27 game season package.

cheeses_h_rice
08-06-2004, 11:15 PM
Please. Someone name me a team thats lost their two best hitters for the season and still been a playoff contender. I can't think of one. Not to blame the recent slump on injuries, but the sox need serious help with their lineup. Hopefully we can address these needs in the offseason:(:
Thomas and Ordonez were in the lineup for half the season.

Plus the Sox got Carl Everett as a replacement for Frank.

Injuries definitely played a part in the timing of the slump, but there is something more at work; this team is just fundamentally weak.

OEO Magglio
08-06-2004, 11:16 PM
That show how much you know about talent.

you must listen to Boers and BernsteinSince when did Shannon Stewart become a HOF and since when has Joe Mauer become a perennial allstar?

Viva Magglio
08-06-2004, 11:16 PM
He sort of ripped Pollyannas in the rant.

MRKARNO
08-06-2004, 11:18 PM
Plus the Sox got Carl Everett as a replacement for Frank.

Calling Carl Everett a replacement for Frank Thomas is (hypothetically) like calling Billy Koch a replacement for Eric Gagne.

Flight #24
08-06-2004, 11:22 PM
Thomas and Ordonez were in the lineup for half the season.

Plus the Sox got Carl Everett as a replacement for Frank.

Injuries definitely played a part in the timing of the slump, but there is something more at work; this team is just fundamentally weak.
Magglio played in 44 games before getting hurt. He was back for a few after that, but was ineffective because....he was still hurt.

Frank played half the season. When he got hurt, the team was around 8 games over .500 and in first place.

And if you can actually believe that Carl Everett can ever be a replacement for Frank Thomas.......:?:

The slump is due to a team being based on playing one style, then being forced to play another, while simultaneously having role players be depended on like core players and having guys who are excellent 3d & 4th offensive options have to be 1st & 2d offensive options, where they are average or below relative to other top offensive options.

You can look for other reasons like "why didn't we have more allstar players to replace Maggs & Frank", or "Why didn't we trade for more allstar players to replace Maggs & Frank". or "Why did we have any players that weren't all-round, complete guys". But the answer to all of those questions is the same: Because we are not the Yankees, Cubs, or Red Sox.

cheeses_h_rice
08-06-2004, 11:24 PM
Calling Carl Everett a replacement for Frank Thomas is (hypothetically) like calling Billy Koch a replacement for Eric Gagne.
Eh, I think you're being a bit dismissive.

Thomas's OBP was about .430; Everett's was .320. That's about an extra on-base every 2 games. Hardly enough to rip the soul out of this team the way it has, even coupled with Maggs' absence.

CWSGuy406
08-06-2004, 11:27 PM
On a positive note (is that allowed, a little positivity?):

I know it's a small sample size, but I think Minny is starting to play back to their level. Lost two in a row, and basically got shut down by Mark Redmond tonight. They really only have two solid starters, Radke and Santana, let's hope that catches up to them.

I'm not giving up on this team. I know that seems crazy, but that's just how I am. I cannot see this team playing so friggin poory when we still have 20+ games or so left with Detroit/KC.

Go get 'em tomorrow, Freddy! :bandance:

losingugly2004
08-06-2004, 11:30 PM
I liked the fact that the Sox had a shot to tie the game. It was good to see Roberto Alomar's glove back (with the exception of that misplay in the 8th). His relay throw to Buhrke that nailed that slow-moving Cleveland freight train should do a lot to help build Jamie's confidence after that open-field tackle by Torii Hunter, and another botched play he had at the plate in an earlier series. I liked Ozzie playing Uribe at short. It was good to get a break from Valentin's glove. Maybe Garcia will get us a win on the mound tomorrow. This ride is starting to pick up too much speed, let's put the brakes on.

samram
08-06-2004, 11:30 PM
On a positive note (is that allowed, a little positivity?):

I know it's a small sample size, but I think Minny is starting to play back to their level. Lost two in a row, and basically got shut down by Mark Redmond tonight. They really only have two solid starters, Radke and Santana, let's hope that catches up to them.

I'm not giving up on this team. I know that seems crazy, but that's just how I am. I cannot see this team playing so friggin poory when we still have 20+ games or so left with Detroit/KC.

Go get 'em tomorrow, Freddy! :bandance:
What of their play against Detroit/KC so far makes you think they will magically begin to play better? Is it getting shut out by Brian Anderson? Is it being shut down by Mike Maroth and Jason Johnson? I hope you're right, but I don't see it happening.

Frankfan4life
08-06-2004, 11:32 PM
Magglio played in 44 games before getting hurt. He was back for a few after that, but was ineffective because....he was still hurt.

Frank played half the season. When he got hurt, the team was around 8 games over .500 and in first place.

And if you can actually believe that Carl Everett can ever be a replacement for Frank Thomas.......:?:

The slump is due to a team being based on playing one style, then being forced to play another, while simultaneously having role players be depended on like core players and having guys who are excellent 3d & 4th offensive options have to be 1st & 2d offensive options, where they are average or below relative to other top offensive options.

You can look for other reasons like "why didn't we have more allstar players to replace Maggs & Frank", or "Why didn't we trade for more allstar players to replace Maggs & Frank". or "Why did we have any players that weren't all-round, complete guys". But the answer to all of those questions is the same: Because we are not the Yankees, Cubs, or Red Sox....or the Twins.

CWSGuy406
08-06-2004, 11:34 PM
What of their play against Detroit/KC so far makes you think they will magically begin to play better? Is it getting shut out by Brian Anderson? Is it being shut down by Mike Maroth and Jason Johnson? I hope you're right, but I don't see it happening.
Like I said. I cannot see this team playing this poorly against this competition. That's just what I think.

Flight #24
08-06-2004, 11:42 PM
...or the Twins.reading is a skill....

The Twins are based on a different style. One that allows for more easily plugging in guys because it's a system of execution, not based as much on the talent levels of the players. It's great when you can't go get the big guys or when you have injuries, but it doesn't have the scoring upside of some other systems.

The Sox O was put together to be a high scoring team. The problem with that is that when you lose 2 core guys from that type of O, you struggle. The Twins were put together to be a low scoring team. When you lose 1 or 2 interchangeable guys, you can still stay a low scoring team.

Is that so hard to understand?

dickallen15
08-06-2004, 11:58 PM
I'm still sitting here in amazement as to why Ozzie pinch hit for Burke in the eigth. The guy had a two hit game going...........:?:Uribe, who had 2 hits, was going to be lifted for Valentin.The last time Uribe had 2 hits in a game, Ozzie sat him for the next 3. He then continued his horrid slump.

dickallen15
08-07-2004, 12:00 AM
I liked the fact that the Sox had a shot to tie the game. It was good to see Roberto Alomar's glove back (with the exception of that misplay in the 8th). His relay throw to Buhrke that nailed that slow-moving Cleveland freight train should do a lot to help build Jamie's confidence after that open-field tackle by Torii Hunter, and another botched play he had at the plate in an earlier series. I liked Ozzie playing Uribe at short. It was good to get a break from Valentin's glove. Maybe Garcia will get us a win on the mound tomorrow. This ride is starting to pick up too much speed, let's put the brakes on.Robby has no range at 2B anymore. If he and Konerko are playing together, a lot balls are going to get through the right side of the infield.

Troupis
08-07-2004, 12:16 AM
I saw 23,000 came out in the box score but didn't see the game. Were the season ticket holders there or did it look like an Expos game at the park?

How was the crowd? Energetic? Booing?

KW is clearly trying to give pep talks to the fans but I'm glad it sounds like none of us bought the smoke and mirrors routine.

Grobber33
08-07-2004, 12:17 AM
Score caller implies...

:ozzie = :wanne

I disagree.
I've been staying clear,,,,,but on this one,,,I'd say that caller-whomever it was must be on CRACK!!! Dave is a nice guy,,,but please dont insult Ozzie that way! He deserves more respect that that for gosh sakes!!!!!!

Perhaps but Bevington=Wanny photos on here. That would make sense!!!

dickallen15
08-07-2004, 12:18 AM
I saw 23,000 came out in the box score but didn't see the game. Were the season tisket holders there or did it look like an Expos game at the park?

How was the crowd? Energetic? Booing?

KW is clearly trying to give pep talks to the fans but I'm glad it sounds like none of us bought the smoke and mirrors routine.There seemed to be that many in the seats. I thought the crowd was pretty subdued which is a result of an anemic offense.

CubsfansareDRUNK
08-07-2004, 12:24 AM
reading is a skill....

The Twins are based on a different style. One that allows for more easily plugging in guys because it's a system of execution, not based as much on the talent levels of the players. It's great when you can't go get the big guys or when you have injuries, but it doesn't have the scoring upside of some other systems.

The Sox O was put together to be a high scoring team. The problem with that is that when you lose 2 core guys from that type of O, you struggle. The Twins were put together to be a low scoring team. When you lose 1 or 2 interchangeable guys, you can still stay a low scoring team.

Is that so hard to understand?
No its not. You did your homework. lmao

South Side
08-07-2004, 12:32 AM
How do you people have anything left in you to discuss this much after a loss like this? Personally, I'm speechless... Thankfully in the past 2 weeks, I've become numb to White Sox losses... so I got that going for me.

RKMeibalane
08-07-2004, 12:39 AM
:hurt

:whiner::whiner::whiner:

RKMeibalane
08-07-2004, 12:41 AM
How do you people have anything left in you to discuss this much after a loss like this? Personally, I'm speechless... Thankfully in the past 2 weeks, I've become numb to White Sox losses... so I got that going for me.
All I know is that I spent the past two hours playing a video game. Once I finished, I came straight to this board to see what happened this evening. I took one look at some of the posts in this thead, and I thought, "What the hell have they done now?"

Boy, does this team suck.

RKMeibalane
08-07-2004, 12:44 AM
Seriously, this has to be the lowest I've felt about the Sox since I started following them. I haven't been a Sox fan for that long (1998), but I can't ever remember feeling this badly about what was going on. The 2002 season was rough. Last season was tough to deal with at times, but at least there was hope. This is the first time that I've ever seen a baseball team that didn't have any hope.

THE_HOOTER
08-07-2004, 01:02 AM
FYI, posting the exact same thing 15 times in 10 minutes doesn't make your point have any more validity, it just makes it excessively annoying.

And, if you'd rather have Joe Mauer and Shannon Stewart over Frank and Maggs, well... I can't even think of anything else to write, that's so incredibly ridiculous.

:rolleyes:
The Sox havent won with Thomas and Ordonez in the lineup--its just another easy excuse to use.

The idea that we have more more talent makes no sense--they have kicked our butts for almost 4 years now.

Stop thinking we have more talent, because we dont.

We may have more home run hitters, but we dont have more talent.

Talent can bunt, talent knows when to take the extra base, talent knows when to hit other the way... blah, blah , blah.

The White Sox may have a lot of talent at hitting when fully healthy, but from top to bottom in the organization we lack talent on how to win.

Sorry if my posts were annoying, but your ignorance towards talent is annoying.

Shoeless Joe
08-07-2004, 01:04 AM
Not good. Bad loss. Depressing. Can it get any worse? Probably. However there's still about two months left so let's see what happens. Until then keep your heads up Sox fans the sun will come up tomorrow. Although I wouldn't bet my bottom dollar on it.

OEO Magglio
08-07-2004, 01:04 AM
The Sox havent won with Thomas and Ordonez in the lineup--its just another easy excuse to use.

The idea that we have more more talent makes no sense--they have kicked our butts for almost 4 years now.

Stop thinking we have more talent, because we dont.

We may have more home run hitters, but we dont have more talent.

Talent can bunt, talent knows when to take the extra base, talent knows when to hit other the way... blah, blah , blah.

The White Sox may have a lot of talent at hitting when fully healthy, but from top to bottom in the organization we lack talent on how to win.

Sorry if my posts were annoying, but your ignorance towards talent is annoying.We kicked their butts earlier in the year when we had both and then when we only had Frank, with ozzie we were beating them with our two best players and then with one of them, so what's your point again?

RichFitztightly
08-07-2004, 01:07 AM
Kenny or Ozzie should really start levying fines for any hitter who hits a solo homerun. Maybe that'll get it in their heads to stop swinging for the fences... especially with nobody on.

THE_HOOTER
08-07-2004, 01:10 AM
We kicked their butts earlier in the year when we had both and then when we only had Frank, with ozzie we were beating them with our two best players and then with one of them, so what's your point again?
I hope you are kidding because unless you became a Sox fan this year, the Twins have kicked our butt whenever it mattered since 2001.

Thats my point, but we still have more talent right?

MRKARNO
08-07-2004, 01:11 AM
Sorry if my posts were annoying, but your ignorance towards talent is annoying.
There's talent and there's fundamentals. They are two seperate concepts. You can be talented and have good fundamentals too. Usually you need one of the two to be successful. Fundamentals is bunting the runner over, stealing the base, making good decisions, etc. Talent is hitting home runs, hitting for average, 95 MPH Fastball etc. Two seperate concepts.

OEO Magglio
08-07-2004, 01:13 AM
I hope you are kidding because unless you became a Sox fan this year, the Twins have kicked our butt whenever it mattered since 2001.

Thats my point, but we still have more talent right?Once again, that was in the Jerry Manuel regime. We were destroying them with only Frank in the lineup this year. And yes we do have more talent then the twins, read MRKARNO's post, maybe you'd learn something.

THE_HOOTER
08-07-2004, 01:16 AM
I disagree--


To be a talented ballplayer you should be able to do most things at or above your competition.

To be a talented ballclub, you have to have a combination that leaves no holes.

Since at least 2001, our baserunning, fielding, and managing has been among the worst in baseball.

We may have a lot of power hitters, but I dont think that makes us a talented ballclub that should win.

The Sox need a lot talent in areas that are crucial in order to win.

THE_HOOTER
08-07-2004, 01:21 AM
Once again, that was in the Jerry Manuel regime. We were destroying them with only Frank in the lineup this year. And yes we do have more talent then the twins, read MRKARNO's post, maybe you'd learn something.
I read his post and I dont agee.

In my opinion, you lack a lot of basic talents on your team if the fundamentals of the game are consistently below average.

For example, Frank Thomas would be a 1st ballot HOF if he played a good 1st base, and somewhat ran the bases well.

I am not knocking Frank, I am just saying that if you lack ability in some areas it takes away from other areas you excel in.

He makes up for it with his hitting, but when you have 6-7 guys on a team who are one-dimensional I think you lack serious talent in important areas.

RKMeibalane
08-07-2004, 01:21 AM
I disagree--


To be a talented ballplayer you should be able to do most things at or above your competition.

To be a talented ballclub, you have to have a combination that leaves no holes.

Since at least 2001, our baserunning, fielding, and managing has been among the worst in baseball.

We may have a lot of power hitters, but I dont think that makes us a talented ballclub that should win.

The Sox need a lot talent in areas that are crucial in order to win.
Talent is defined as "God given" ability. Talent is not the same as fundamentals. To say that the Sox are a poor baserunning team is an indictment of their fundamentals, not their talent. Maybe you should learn the difference before you continue throwing your **** at the wall, hoping that something sticks.

MRKARNO
08-07-2004, 01:21 AM
I disagree--

OK well you can dissagree with baseball symantics all you want, it won't get you anywhere. Your definition of talent is inconsistant with most people who know anything about baseball.

THE_HOOTER
08-07-2004, 01:26 AM
Thats not true.


Talent is defined as Natural, Creative, or Mental ability.

Where the sox may have several Natural Power hitting talents, the creative and mental aspect is a joke.

Talent is not only defined by god given talent.

Look up the definiton.

According to Websters dictionary: "Natural, mental ,or creative ability"

Well, you may have 1, but you dont have the other 2.

RKMeibalane
08-07-2004, 01:26 AM
I read his post and I dont agee.

In my opinion, you lack a lot of basic talents on your team if the fundamentals of the game are consistently below average.

For example, Frank Thomas would be a 1st ballot HOF if he played a good 1st base, and somewhat ran the bases well.

I am not knocking Frank, I am just saying that if you lack ability in some areas it takes away from other areas you excel in.

He makes up for it with his hitting, but when you have 6-7 guys on a team who are one-dimensional I think you lack serious talent in important areas.
As you yourself pointed out, Frank is a HOF'er. Thus, I think it's fair to say that this team's problems revolve around other players, not Frank. Furthermore, since Thomas remains this team's most productive offensive player, it stands to reason that other players should be moved in order to re-shape the ballclub. Again, other players, not Frank. Because other players don't have Frank's talent (yes, talent), they are the ones who should be moved if this team is to be rebuilt.

RKMeibalane
08-07-2004, 01:29 AM
OK well you can dissagree with baseball symantics all you want, it won't get you anywhere. Your definition of talent is inconsistant with most people who know anything about baseball.
HOOTER seems more interested in playing with the dictionary than he does in coming up with a solid argument to prove his point.

THE_HOOTER
08-07-2004, 01:33 AM
As you yourself pointed out, Frank is a HOF'er. Thus, I think it's fair to say that this team's problems revolve around other players, not Frank. Furthermore, since Thomas remains this team's most productive offensive player, it stands to reason that other players should be moved in order to re-shape the ballclub. Again, other players, not Frank. Because other players don't have Frank's talent (yes, talent), they are the ones who should be moved if this team is to be rebuilt.
RK, I could not agree more.

Thomas is one the best pure hitters of my generation. I truly believe he could focus on any aspect, be it walking, HR, singles, whatever and get it done.

He makes the other team sweat--no pitcher wants to pitch to a 6"5 270 lb guy who has a good eye.

You build around Frank--he makes everyone else's job a little easier hitting-wise.

as far as Lee, konerko, Maggs, and whoever else they just dont get it done.

They have been healthy together for a while and the losse are brutal--errors, bad baserunning.

The whole nucleus is not working--the "talent" necessary to win isnt there. I dont care if the talent on paper says we should hit 300 HR's, the bottom line is we popup or make mental errors when the game counts.

MRKARNO
08-07-2004, 01:35 AM
The whole nucleus is not working--the "talent" necessary to win isnt there..
Maybe we don't have the "chopper two hopper" and the "safety squeeze" to win either...

THE_HOOTER
08-07-2004, 01:43 AM
Its been a few years now, and we havent won anything--its been disappointment after disappointment.


I think its time to shed ourselves of some of these "talented" ballplayers and get some grinders in here.

Did I just quote Kenny?

lol

pczarapa
08-07-2004, 02:21 AM
Hawk just said in the Postgame show that "Buehrle was outstanding tonight."

Yes the offense blew, once again and Mark pitched fairly well, but I wouldn't call giving up a 3-run HR in the 2nd inning "outstanding".

Jesus H Christ, 3 runs over 6 2/3 innings is a pretty damn good outing

calderon
08-07-2004, 02:22 AM
please blow this team up

Frankfan4life
08-07-2004, 03:03 PM
reading is a skill....
The Twins are based on a different style. One that allows for more easily plugging in guys because it's a system of execution, not based as much on the talent levels of the players. It's great when you can't go get the big guys or when you have injuries, but it doesn't have the scoring upside of some other systems.

The Sox O was put together to be a high scoring team. The problem with that is that when you lose 2 core guys from that type of O, you struggle. The Twins were put together to be a low scoring team. When you lose 1 or 2 interchangeable guys, you can still stay a low scoring team.

Is that so hard to understand?First of all, your post was not very well written. It was difficult for me to follow your thoughts because some of your sentence structure was faulty and, consequently, some of your points were not clear. I did the best I could and, apparently, I missed the thrust of your post, for that I apologize. However, I believe my reading skills are very good and my writing skills are definitely better than yours (for instance, a question mark should follow a question and the comma and period should fall within the quotation marks, see example below).
You can look for other reasons like "why didn't we have more allstar players to replace Maggs & Frank", or "Why didn't we trade for more allstar players to replace Maggs & Frank". or "Why did we have any players that weren't all-round, complete guys". But the answer to all of those questions is the same: Because we are not the Yankees, Cubs, or Red Sox.I attempted to interpret as much from your post as I could. I added the Twins to your post because I believed the thrust of your post seemed to be players who replaced other injured players. Like the other teams you mentioned, the Twins have had problems with injuries this year but have overcome them. I totally agree with you that the Sox did not find adequate replacements for Frank and Maggs and that this has hurt the team. Other teams like the Cubs, Yankees and Red Sox plugged the holes in their lineups with similar type players. I think the Twins did the same. I don’t agree that the Twins were put together as a “low scoring” team. They are basically a team that plays fundamentally sound baseball at every position.

I usually overlook bad punctuation and spelling, as these mistakes don’t generally gauge one’s intelligence. This is a board full of fans who love this team and I know that we’re all on edge because this season has not turned out to be what we envisioned and sometimes in our eagerness to react and interact, we make mistakes.