PDA

View Full Version : Thomas out for year


CHISOXFAN13
08-06-2004, 03:05 PM
per Levine on ESPN 1000.

DVsoxfan
08-06-2004, 03:07 PM
Problem:o: , what about maggs?

Flight #24
08-06-2004, 03:07 PM
per Levine on ESPN 1000.
(deflates and sags in chair ala sutopilot in "Airplane")

This will not be good for team morale. If the news was Frank back in a few weeks, that would have been a huge momentum booster.

Fungo
08-06-2004, 03:07 PM
Boy, it just keeps on getting better don't it!!

Aidan
08-06-2004, 03:07 PM
NoOoOoOoOooo!!!
:whiner: :whiner: :whiner:

duke of dorwood
08-06-2004, 03:07 PM
Now,

DO SOMETHING !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!

CHISOXFAN13
08-06-2004, 03:08 PM
Problem:o: , what about maggs?

Maggs won't be evaluated for another two weeks.

Deadguy
08-06-2004, 03:08 PM
per Levine on ESPN 1000.
The things you read when you can't locate your cyanide pills!

JGarlandrules20
08-06-2004, 03:08 PM
Not good....:(:

Aidan
08-06-2004, 03:08 PM
Now,

DO SOMETHING !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!Carlos Delgado would've been a nice replacement but the bastard wouldn't waive his no-trade clause to come here. :whiner:

JRIG
08-06-2004, 03:10 PM
STAY POSITIVE!!

greenpeach
08-06-2004, 03:11 PM
per Levine on ESPN 1000.
Gee, what happened to all those "inside sources" who were saying that Frank would be back by August 15th ?

The season's over guys, unless we get Delgado.

Soxzilla
08-06-2004, 03:11 PM
:ohno
*sigh*

Win1ForMe
08-06-2004, 03:14 PM
No surprise here. Don't see why I was hammered when I said the same thing a couple of weeks ago.

ma_deuce
08-06-2004, 03:14 PM
:thud:

Crap in a hat!

Rocky Soprano
08-06-2004, 03:16 PM
:whiner: :whiner: :whiner:


Well now our season is over! :whiner:

fledgedrallycap
08-06-2004, 03:17 PM
I for one really didn't expect him back, so this doesn't seem like breaking news.

Deadguy
08-06-2004, 03:18 PM
:bundy
"And you wonder why I'm not a White Sox fan."

Jjav829
08-06-2004, 03:18 PM
I for one really didn't expect him back, so this doesn't seem like breaking news.
Agreed. This isn't really shocking. All those thoughts of him coming back in a week or two were VERY optimistic.

Rush20
08-06-2004, 03:22 PM
...makes you wonder if deep down, Frank is happy he's sticking it to JR for not renegotiating his contract. Full season of pay for a half season of work....

Too bad, because The Hurt was having a good season. You can tell he was nursing something the last two-three weeks before he went on the DL

samram
08-06-2004, 03:23 PM
Agreed. This isn't really shocking. All those thoughts of him coming back in a week or two were VERY optimistic.
Yeah, can't disagree with that. The one good thing to maybe come out of this (and it's a stretch) is that the rest of the team will stop waiting for Frank to come to the rescue and actually take it upon themselves to start winning. I'm not sure that will happen, but it's a possibility.

Foulke You
08-06-2004, 03:24 PM
Not good news but I can't say I'm surprised. When KW went out and got Carl Everett, I had a feeling they figured Frank wouldn't be back this year. 2004 White Sox: What Could Have Been.

DVsoxfan
08-06-2004, 03:26 PM
:hawk
"We just need to get our swagger back, I don't think this will help"

sendimjoey
08-06-2004, 03:27 PM
I wonder if Magglio Ordonez's injury helped cost the Sox Frank Thomas, too. IIRC, Thomas said he started feeling the pain in his foot shortly after Ordonez went down, then aggravated the injury in the final game of the series at Florida. What I'm wondering is whether immediate rest when he got hurt would have allowed him to heal. Maybe beckett21 is around to offer some expertise?

I'm kind of sorry that I'm even mentioning that these two could be linked. All by themselves, these events are bad enough. :whiner: :whiner: :whiner:

longshot7
08-06-2004, 03:28 PM
Now,

DO SOMETHING !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!

why bother? It's over. stick a fork in us - we're done.

Win1ForMe
08-06-2004, 03:29 PM
Just a question (that I think might have been answered last month) but will this injury be one that lingers into next year. I certainly expect him to play but would such an injury hinder his performance (it is his "power" foot), or should he be 100% by spring training? Did Levine say anything about this?

One other thing, and I guess this would be directed at beckett21 more than anyone else, is the decision to keep the boot on for another 6-8 weeks in-line with expectations, or is this turning into another prolonged and mysterious Sox injury?

Iwritecode
08-06-2004, 03:29 PM
Guess what ******* song comes on just as I'm reading this thread???

"na na na na"
"na na na na"
"hey hey hey"
"goodbye"

Somebody up there doesn't like us very much... :angry:

CWWTWS1
08-06-2004, 03:30 PM
Wow! That's a tough blow.

Huisj
08-06-2004, 03:30 PM
is anyone really surprised by this though? did anyone really expect that he could come back yet this year since it was inevitable that he'll eventually need surgery anyway? Doesn't he have bone spurs? those don't go away with rest i don't think.

Iwritecode
08-06-2004, 03:32 PM
is anyone really surprised by this though? did anyone really expect that he could come back yet this year since it was inevitable that he'll eventually need surgery anyway? Doesn't he have bone spurs? those don't go away with rest i don't think.

I thought it was just a hairline fracture on the top of his foot...

Iwritecode
08-06-2004, 03:33 PM
why bother? It's over. stick a fork in us - we're done.

I wonder if there's any room left on the Cardinals bandwagon...

Gimm
08-06-2004, 03:39 PM
why bother? It's over..Why bother?!

I don't know if you noticed but Cubs are now the favorites to win the World Series should they reach playoffs, which they will. Think about that for a second.

Everything (and above that) should be done to salvage this season. This team is only 5 games back in the loss column with 2 months to go and 6 more games with the Twins. Payroll is only 65 Mill. Failing to make postseason and crushing the fans' hopes YET AGAIN....all the while Cubs have another exhilirating 2nd half.....will be devastating and will destroy what ever goodwill this team build up in the 1st half. Failure simply cannot be an option here, under the circumstances Sox are facing anyway.

So Frank is out. Fine. Magglio might still come back later on and provide a boost, but I am not counting on that. Revisit Delgado. Revisit Larry Walker. And other options. Don't tell me, it can't be done - seen too many August deals go down to believe that. Still gotta get Lofton either way.

Soxzilla
08-06-2004, 03:40 PM
I wonder if there's any room left on the Cardinals bandwagon...
Or the giants/padres.

Erik The Red
08-06-2004, 03:43 PM
Gimm: who do you suggest we give up for Delgado/Walker?

Mickster
08-06-2004, 03:44 PM
First, Thomas out for the year. Then, Rick James found dead in apartment. WHAT NEXT????? :whiner: :whiner:

Shoeless Joe
08-06-2004, 03:44 PM
First I hear Rick James passed away and now this! This is turning out to be a horrible day.

There's gonna be a lot of this today minus the smile. :gulp:

Edit: Great minds think a lot Mickster!

Gimm
08-06-2004, 03:45 PM
Gimm: who do you suggest we give up for Delgado/Walker?
Are you familiar with salary dumps? Rockies and especially Blue Jays are itching to dump their salaries.

voodoochile
08-06-2004, 03:45 PM
Now,

DO SOMETHING !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!
Do what? You honestly think some HOF caliber hitter is going to "slip through" waivers and end up on the Sox?

Odds are VERY slim it will happen...

Deadguy
08-06-2004, 03:46 PM
First, Thomas out for the year. Then, Rick James found dead in apartment. WHAT NEXT????? :whiner: :whiner:

Watch your back Bea Arthur.

These kind of tragedies always occur in threes.

Erik The Red
08-06-2004, 03:46 PM
Are you familiar with salary dumps? Rockies and especially Blue Jays are itching to dump their salaries. They're not gonna give him up for straight cash. So I re-iterate: who are we giving up?

Flight #24
08-06-2004, 03:48 PM
So Frank is out. Fine. Magglio might still come back later on and provide a boost, but I am not counting on that. Revisit Delgado. Revisit Larry Walker. And other options. Don't tell me, it can't be done - seen too many August deals go down to believe that. Still gotta get Lofton either way.
I guarantee you that right now, Kenny Williams is revisiting any and every hitter who might possibly be available.

Deadguy
08-06-2004, 03:49 PM
Are you familiar with salary dumps? Rockies and especially Blue Jays are itching to dump their salaries.
Both these players already vetoed deals. If it didn't happen before July 31, I doubt much is going to change now. It's also unlikely that these guys slip through waivers all the way down to the Sox.

RKMeibalane
08-06-2004, 03:50 PM
:hawk

"We gone!"

Mots09
08-06-2004, 03:51 PM
I also didn't believe Frank was going to be back this year. Being as big as he is, it would take a lot of Vioxx for him to play through it. His mobility isn't great to start out with, and add this to it.


You would need a man to stand in the other batters box, and run for Frank when he would hit the ball ala Rock and Jock Softball back when CFielder had to have someone do that for him :)

Season is over by my watch, it is very difficult to string together wins down the stretch of the year without your 3 and 4 men. It makes everyone else in the lineup hit in positions they aren't comfortable with...


GO SOX GO:whiner:

CWWTWS1
08-06-2004, 03:53 PM
Delgado? Why? Do you not understand there is NOTHING left to give up anymore? The Sox would have to part with Lee and Marte for the Jays to even entertain the idea.

DumpJerry
08-06-2004, 03:54 PM
:whiner: :whiner: 2004, RIP. We loved ya while we had ya.............:thud:

Not only have we let the Pennant get away from us, but the Flubs are playing like they are possessed. If the Flubs make the WS, I will have to go into witness protection, anyone joining me there?

I think what we did up until about two weeks or so ago should tell JR to OPEN THE FLOODGATES ON THE WALLET IN THE OFFSEASON!!!!:mad: Let's assume Frank is healthy next year and we sign a healthy Mags (whose price is sure to be lower now). If we sign a couple of more bats who hit for hits and not homers to complement them, Paulie, Carlos and Aaron (who is coming into his own finally!), then we can be next year what the Yanks are this year, dominant. Our top three starters are fearsome, Garland has his good moments, so one more solid starter and a coupe of long bullpen guys will do the trick. BTW, one of the bats needs to be a quality catcher.

JR must realize by now that if he opens up the wallet for KW, we will be there in the green seats (new/old color next year!!:D: ) supporting the team. If JR does not realize that, look at my screen name for the solution.

As they say in Mob movies "to the mattresses men" the Cubs are playing too good to ignore!:mad:

RKMeibalane
08-06-2004, 03:57 PM
I wonder if Jerry "The Tinkerer" Manuel is laughing at us.

:jerry

*LAUGHTER* *LAUGHTER* *LAUGHTER*

Mots09
08-06-2004, 03:58 PM
You are damn right he is laughing at us!:dtroll:

Mots09
08-06-2004, 04:01 PM
http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/index.jsp?c_id=cws

Front page story on whitesox.com.... Thomas HE GONE!:whiner:

kittle42
08-06-2004, 04:04 PM
I for one really didn't expect him back, so this doesn't seem like breaking news.
I completely agree. And I feel the same about Maggs.

kittle42
08-06-2004, 04:05 PM
On the plus side, the Tribune can make the Magglio Watch space bigger now that the Frank Watch has ended.

RKMeibalane
08-06-2004, 04:05 PM
I completely agree. And I feel the same about Maggs.
Frank was always more likely to return than Maggs. Since Thomas is now out for the remainder of the season, it's highly unlikely that Ordonez will return. The Sox might as well mail it in, if they haven't already.

DickAllen72
08-06-2004, 04:09 PM
Didn't someone post here a while back that Thomas was seen gambling in Las Vegas and walking around without any limp? Now I read he'll remain in a cast.

Who's BSing Whom? Was Thomas in a cast or wasn't he???

Flight #24
08-06-2004, 04:11 PM
Delgado? Why? Do you not understand there is NOTHING left to give up anymore? The Sox would have to part with Lee and Marte for the Jays to even entertain the idea.
If the Sox were willing to take on his remaining salary, the Jays would likely do the deal for a VERY low level prospect. I'd guess he's already cleared waivers, and if he hasn't, the Sox would probably get him if they wanted to claim him. not many teams with hopes of contending that would have priority over us, and non-contenders wouldn't want him.

Actually - if the Jays put him on waivers, the Sox claim him, and the Jays let him go - can he refuse? Or does that get around the no-trade? Do that and then we trade a low level prospect to them for cash or an even lower level prospect and you have your Delgado regardless of what he wants. Hi only option would be to sit out and forfeit salary.

Is that right?

Hangar18
08-06-2004, 04:12 PM
Why bother?!

I don't know if you noticed but Cubs are now the favorites to win the World Series should they reach playoffs, which they will. Think about that for a second.

Everything (and above that) should be done to salvage this season. This team is only 5 games back in the loss column with 2 months to go and 6 more games with the Twins. Payroll is only 65 Mill. Failing to make postseason and crushing the fans' hopes YET AGAIN....all the while Cubs have another exhilirating 2nd half.....will be devastating and will destroy what ever goodwill this team build up in the 1st half. Failure simply cannot be an option here, under the circumstances Sox are facing anyway.

So Frank is out. Fine. Magglio might still come back later on and provide a boost, but I am not counting on that. Revisit Delgado. Revisit Larry Walker. And other options. Don't tell me, it can't be done - seen too many August deals go down to believe that. Still gotta get Lofton either way.
Your right .......... its time to Circle-The-Wagons-Come-Out-Shooting.
The SOX have to give 1000% RIGHT NOW Thru October. The Cubs make the WOrld Series (all because of Nomar, imagine that) its over for this Franchise. Book It. Jerry Reinsdorf better take a good look in the mirror
and look at the corner hes painted his team into.

RKMeibalane
08-06-2004, 04:13 PM
Didn't someone post here a while back that Thomas was seen gambling in Las Vegas and walking around without any limp? Now I read he'll remain in a cast.

Who's BSing Whom? Was Thomas in a cast or wasn't he???
Just because he was walking around without pain doesn't mean that his injury has fully healed. He may still have been wearing the protective boot underneath his pants. Besides, x-rays of the injury were taken earlier today, and it was determined that Frank should continue to rest.

He's not faking it (like Nomar was). His season is over.

the_valenstache
08-06-2004, 04:16 PM
Is it pathetic that I first heard about Rick James' passing on this board?

And, oh, uh....poor Frank. I never thought he was coming back anyways. Hopefully he can come back stronger than ever next year.

Brian26
08-06-2004, 04:17 PM
Do what? You honestly think some HOF caliber hitter is going to "slip through" waivers and end up on the Sox?

Odds are VERY slim it will happen...

High salaries can easily slip through waivers. Manny Ramirez is an example of this last year.

MRKARNO
08-06-2004, 04:17 PM
I wonder if there's any room left on the Cardinals bandwagon...
I'm sure there's plenty of room for us

Baby Fisk
08-06-2004, 04:18 PM
I'm not throwing in the towel until Cleveland passes us in the standings.

TOWEL WATCH BEGINS!

RKMeibalane
08-06-2004, 04:19 PM
I'm sure there's plenty of room for us
I posted a message about Frank's injury at cardsclubhouse.com (http://www.cardsclubhouse.com). I'm interested to hear what Cardinals fans have to say about it.

Brian26
08-06-2004, 04:19 PM
I'm sure there's plenty of room for us
Cardinals and the Padres. I don't even want these scrub bastards to make the playoffs.

Deadguy
08-06-2004, 04:21 PM
High salaries can easily slip through waivers. Manny Ramirez is an example of this last year.
Manny had 100 million dollars guaranteed remaining on his contract. That's not exactly the same as Delgado or Walker slipping through waivers, as there is much less guaranteed money remiaining on their contracts.

Brian26
08-06-2004, 04:23 PM
I forget how Frank's option works this winter. Isn't there a team option and a player option? I guess it's conceivable that the Sox could not offer an option for 2005, which might guarantee the sad but inevitable:

We have seen the last games Frank AND Magglio will ever play in Sox uniforms. Man, this blows.

RKMeibalane
08-06-2004, 04:24 PM
I forget how Frank's option works this winter. Isn't there a team option and a player option? I guess it's conceivable that the Sox could not offer an option for 2005, which might guarantee the sad but inevitable:

We have seen the last games Frank AND Magglio will ever play in Sox uniforms. Man, this blows.
Frank will be back next season. He has an option at eight million dollars for next season.

RKMeibalane
08-06-2004, 04:27 PM
Cardinals fans seem to think this latest development won't prevent the Sox from winning the division. Honestly, does anybody besides us pay attention to Sox games?

Maybe I shouldn't have asked that question.

DumpJerry
08-06-2004, 04:29 PM
I posted a message about Frank's injury at cardsclubhouse.com (http://www.cardsclubhouse.com/). I'm interested to hear what Cardinals fans have to say about it.
If I had a daughter and she could not meet and marry a Sox fan, I would demand she marry a Cards fan. Those guys are grrrrrrrrrrrrrreat!

Of course, if she brought home a Flub fan............well, the ole shotgun is turned on both of 'em!:angry: :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry:

Baby Fisk
08-06-2004, 04:33 PM
Cardinals fans seem to think this latest development won't prevent the Sox from winning the division. I wonder what RELENTLESS OPTIMISM feels like... It's such an alien notion... :?:

RKMeibalane
08-06-2004, 04:36 PM
I wonder what RELENTLESS OPTIMISM feels like... It's such an alien notion... :?:
I just think it's easy for Cardinals fans to "look on the bright side" because of the season they're having. When your favorite team is winning, the problems that other teams face don't seem to matter. I can remember having a similar feeling back in 2000. I heard about injuries to key players on other teams, but I really didn't care. The Sox were winning, and so nothing else mattered. My, how the tables have turned.

Where is Vader at? I would have expected him to make a speech about this.

CHISOXFAN13
08-06-2004, 04:40 PM
Your right .......... its time to Circle-The-Wagons-Come-Out-Shooting.
The SOX have to give 1000% RIGHT NOW Thru October. The Cubs make the WOrld Series (all because of Nomar, imagine that) its over for this Franchise. Book It. Jerry Reinsdorf better take a good look in the mirror
and look at the corner hes painted his team into.
Let's not get carried away. The Cubs had a strong run last year, and the Sox are on the verge of eclipsing 2,000,000 for the first time in a long time despite it.

Baby Fisk
08-06-2004, 04:42 PM
Where is Vader at? I would have expected him to make a speech about this.A lot of people are suffering here today. An appearence by Vader might be too much for some of us to handle...

Tho I think his oration last week got people to behave a bit better!

Aidan
08-06-2004, 04:43 PM
If KW nabbed Carlos Delgado, I would still have some hope of winning the division. This lineup could actually do some damage...


CF Aaron Rowand
2B Robbie Alomar
DH Carlos Delgado
LF Carlos Lee
RF Carl Everett
1B Paul Konerko
SS Jose Valentin
C Ben Davis
3B Joe Crede

RKMeibalane
08-06-2004, 04:44 PM
A lot of people are suffering here today. An appearence by Vader might be too much for some of us to handle...

Tho I think his oration last week got people to behave a bit better!
I have just gotten word that Lord Vader is meeting with Blue Jays representatives in order to work out a trade for Carlos Delgado. He will be here sometime later this evening.

THE_HOOTER
08-06-2004, 04:47 PM
Your right .......... its time to Circle-The-Wagons-Come-Out-Shooting.
The SOX have to give 1000% RIGHT NOW Thru October. The Cubs make the WOrld Series (all because of Nomar, imagine that) its over for this Franchise. Book It. Jerry Reinsdorf better take a good look in the mirror
and look at the corner hes painted his team into.
Actually, you are dead wrong. The Cubs overwhelming popularity has sent people who cannot go to Wrigley to U.S. Cellular.

The increased attendance is linked directly with the lack of available tickets across town.

The Cub's success has actually trickled down to the White sox--it shows you how many baseball fans there are in this town.

Aidan
08-06-2004, 04:55 PM
Actually, you are dead wrong. The Cubs overwhelming popularity has sent people who cannot go to Wrigley to U.S. Cellular.

The increased attendance is linked directly with the lack of available tickets across town.

The Cub's success has actually trickled down to the White sox--it shows you how many baseball fans there are in this town.I don't agree with this statement at all. When teams win (which the Sox were doing much of the first half), attendance increases. Look at the yearly attendance figures for yourself...

http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/CHW/attend.shtml

White Sox attendance skyrocketed in 2000 because our team won, not because the Cubs were popular. The fact that the Cubs were 65-97 in 2000 proves this.

Gimm
08-06-2004, 05:02 PM
They're not gonna give him up for straight cash. So I re-iterate: who are we giving up?
A couple of mid-level prospects in the Mike Spidale/Josh Stewart/Casey Rogowski/Tom Brice mold.

As long guys like Anderson, Sweeney, Mac, Diaz, Honel, Borchard, Cotts are untouched, I could care who goes.

Flight #24
08-06-2004, 05:12 PM
A couple of mid-level prospects in the Mike Spidale/Josh Stewart/Casey Rogowski/Tom Brice mold.

As long guys like Anderson, Sweeney, Mac, Diaz, Honel, Borchard, Cotts are untouched, I could care who goes.[color=teal]Oh my gosh - you're strip mining the farm system!!!
[/color=teal]

DumpJerry
08-06-2004, 05:12 PM
I don't agree with this statement at all. When teams win (which the Sox were doing much of the first half), attendance increases. Look at the yearly attendance figures for yourself...

http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/CHW/attend.shtml

White Sox attendance skyrocketed in 2000 because our team won, not because the Cubs were popular. The fact that the Cubs were 65-97 in 2000 proves this.
I agree with Aidan. Flub fans don't go for a baseball fix, they go to flirt with potential dates. Can't do that at Comiskey, we're busy concentrating on the game.....

Gimm
08-06-2004, 05:20 PM
Oh my gosh - you're strip mining the farm system!!!
**** the system.

**** Charlotte. **** Birmingham. **** Winston-Salem.

The major league team is dying before our eyes with each passing day that Timo, Crede, Borchard and Schoeneweiss are trotted out in the field.....and we're worrying about what exactly??!!

If Degado changes his mind, he should be here yesterday, splitting cab fare with Lofton and Cruz.

Cowch44
08-06-2004, 05:35 PM
**** the system.

**** Charlotte. **** Birmingham. **** Winston-Salem.

The major league team is dying before our eyes with each passing day that Timo, Crede, Borchard and Schoeneweiss are trotted out in the field.....and we're worrying about what exactly??!!

If Degado changes his mind, he should be here yesterday, splitting cab fare with Lofton and Cruz.
would you prefer to win one season and then be the worst team in baseball in a few years?

RKMeibalane
08-06-2004, 05:37 PM
would you prefer to win one season and then be the worst team in baseball in a few years?
I would much rather see this team win a World Series now and suck for five years than finish in second for the next ten seasons.

maurice
08-06-2004, 05:42 PM
I don't buy the cubs fans' exuberance. Like John Kass (http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/chi-0408060231aug06,1,1240598.column?coll=cs-home-headlines) said today:

They're optimistic. They reach into the future, oblivious, like little children or the insane.

Gimm
08-06-2004, 05:44 PM
would you prefer to win one season and then be the worst team in baseball in a few years?
Predictably, you're asking the wrong question here.

The real question is: would you prefer having a great ending to an almost-lost season, possibly getting hot in the playoffs and beating the Cubs to the World Series punch......if it meant greater crowds, greater popularity, greater revenue, greater payroll and greater talent in 2005, 2006 and beyond....knowing that you don't even have to give up your premiere prospects in order to acquire the much-needed pieces for the gruesome 2004 pennant battles......

.....or would you prefer breaking your already moody fans' hearts for the Nth time, effectively conceding the city to the Cubs in the process.....all in the name of preserving the mythical "minor league depth"?


Yeah people, play it safe. It's been 86 years and will be another 86 wretched years still. :rolleyes:

SoxxoS
08-06-2004, 06:27 PM
Predictably, you're asking the wrong question here.

The real question is: would you prefer having a great ending to an almost-lost season, possibly getting hot in the playoffs and beating the Cubs to the World Series punch......if it meant greater crowds, greater popularity, greater revenue, greater payroll and greater talent in 2005, 2006 and beyond....knowing that you don't even have to give up your premiere prospects in order to acquire the much-needed pieces for the gruesome 2004 pennant battles......

.....or would you prefer breaking your already moody fans' hearts for the Nth time, effectively conceding the city to the Cubs in the process.....all in the name of preserving the mythical "minor league depth"?


Yeah people, play it safe. It's been 86 years and will be another 86 wretched years still. :rolleyes:
Great post.

MRKARNO
08-06-2004, 06:29 PM
Honestly, does anybody besides us pay attention to Sox games?

Probably fewer people than all of us would like. We're probably the best team that the least people outside it's fan base care about.

owensmouth
08-06-2004, 06:30 PM
Without their homegrown hitters, and the guys that they've come to rely on for the past few years, this team can now look forward to minimal existance. Delete Paulie, Jose, Frank and Magglio and there's nothing left to draw fans. Yes, this year, because of a good start, the White Sox will draw close to 2 million people. Next year, one half of that will be the total. Add to the budget? Forget it. It's contract dumping time on the old south side. Look for a budget of 40 million and a last place finish for 2005. The Sox are going to go into a decade long slump, which will give them enough time to rebuild their farm system and develop their own team. By the time they recover, the Cubs will completely own the town of Chicago.

Now, is there really any doubt how much the Sox miss Magglio?

Wanne
08-06-2004, 06:45 PM
Look on the brightside....ONLY 182 DAYS TIL PITCHERS AND CATCHERS REPORT TO TUCSON!!!

Gimm
08-06-2004, 06:46 PM
. Next year, one half of that will be the total. Add to the budget? Forget it. It's contract dumping time on the old south side. Look for a budget of 40 million and a last place finish for 2005. The Sox are going to go into a decade long slump, which will give them enough time to rebuild their farm system and develop their own team. By the time they recover, the Cubs will completely own the town of Chicago.?

But....but....you'll get to keep Rogowski, Munoz, Nanita and Spidale....oh yeah!!!



:bandance:

samram
08-06-2004, 06:58 PM
Probably fewer people than all of us would like. We're probably the best team that the least people outside it's fan base care about.
It's either the Sox or the Padres.

CHISOXFAN13
08-06-2004, 06:59 PM
Without their homegrown hitters, and the guys that they've come to rely on for the past few years, this team can now look forward to minimal existance. Delete Paulie, Jose, Frank and Magglio and there's nothing left to draw fans. Yes, this year, because of a good start, the White Sox will draw close to 2 million people. Next year, one half of that will be the total. Add to the budget? Forget it. It's contract dumping time on the old south side. Look for a budget of 40 million and a last place finish for 2005. The Sox are going to go into a decade long slump, which will give them enough time to rebuild their farm system and develop their own team. By the time they recover, the Cubs will completely own the town of Chicago.

Now, is there really any doubt how much the Sox miss Magglio?
With top of the rotation starters such as Garcia, Buerhle and Contreras in the mix until 2006, I think your doom and gloom scenario is a bit far fetched.

So you are assuming we'll draw no more than 1,000,000 people next year?

That's laughable.

RKMeibalane
08-06-2004, 07:26 PM
Lord Vader was unable to make it this evening due to other obligations. However, Count Dooku has generously agreed to appear in his place.

http://www.mfit.de/Episode_II/Bilder/dooku.jpg

"Good evening, White Sox fans. Although you have suffered a grevious loss this weekend, all is not lost. I have spoken with Kenneth Williams, your general manager. He has assured me that he will not rest until he has found another player to replace Francis Thomas."

vegyrex
08-06-2004, 08:45 PM
http://www.blackwarriorriver.org/whiteside/Images/Miscellaneous/Brunhilda%20bw.jpg

:whiner: Sox '04 season R.I.P.:whiner:

THE_HOOTER
08-06-2004, 09:12 PM
I don't agree with this statement at all. When teams win (which the Sox were doing much of the first half), attendance increases. Look at the yearly attendance figures for yourself...

http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/CHW/attend.shtml

White Sox attendance skyrocketed in 2000 because our team won, not because the Cubs were popular. The fact that the Cubs were 65-97 in 2000 proves this.
The White Sox attendance has been steady and strong all year this year!

Check again and notice the Cubs didnt sell every game out by May 1st--The Sox recent surge in attendance is from people looking to see baseball--not diehards or big Sox fans flocking to the park to see a winner--what did they win?

Check the late September game against Kansas City on a FRIDAY night--I believe the attendance was below 15000. I was at that game--it was 75 and beautiful.

Lip Man 1
08-06-2004, 09:42 PM
There are actually some positives in all this:

1. Thomas will now not be under any pressure from either management, his teammates or fans to hurry up and get back in there in a last desperate attempt to try to work a miracle. He can now get the time he needs to completely recover and come out swinging next season. Ditto Maggs.

2. The players now know completely that no one is going to come charging down the hill to rescue them. It's up to them. Sink or swim...period.

3. Ken Williams who has been talking about heart and effort the past few days can now actually see who wants to play for the Sox next year and who doesn't care one way or another.

Sad to say but that's all that's left. The baseball gods continue to laugh at the Sox just like in 1955, 1957, 1963, 1972, 1973, 1997 (Ventura) and 2000 (Eldred and the chain reaction to the pitching staff.)

Lip

beckett21
08-06-2004, 09:54 PM
I wonder if Magglio Ordonez's injury helped cost the Sox Frank Thomas, too. IIRC, Thomas said he started feeling the pain in his foot shortly after Ordonez went down, then aggravated the injury in the final game of the series at Florida. What I'm wondering is whether immediate rest when he got hurt would have allowed him to heal. Maybe beckett21 is around to offer some expertise?

I'm kind of sorry that I'm even mentioning that these two could be linked. All by themselves, these events are bad enough. :whiner: :whiner: :whiner:Sorry I've been away so long. I was out of town for awhile, and my home computer crashed so my access has been sporadic at best, not to mention trying to catch up at the office.

While it's pretty much a moot point now, certainly immediate rest would have been the best course of action. Whether or not it would have made a long-term difference is questionable, but of course it would not have hurt matters. On the other hand, it may have just delayed the inevitable. There is no way to be 100% sure either way, unfortunately.

The problem is, with these types of injuries (stress fractures), you cannot always tell the extent of them for weeks. As I have mentioned before, stress fractures do not generally show up on x-rays until after the healing process has already begun; the x-rays may lag anywhere from 2-4 weeks behind *realtime*. Also, the bone in question (navicular bone) is not a common place for this type of injury, in my opinion, and can very easily be mistaken for tendonitis because of the location of the bone in the arch. This is probably why they were initially talking about tendonitis, because this is a very common area to get tendonitis. I am not saying he was misdiagnosed; on the contrary, this would have been a logical diagnosis. There may have been a component of tendonitis as well.

Bottom line, early diagnosis and treatment is always best. But I believe that the situation was handled in an appropriate manner based on what I have been able to gather. Some things are impossible to predict. It's just an unfortunate circumstance, and really not much can be done to accelerate the process. Bone stimulators can help in some cases, but their use is usually reserved for a slow healing fracture of 6 months or more. Even if for the sake of argument a screw had been put in, which may or may not even be a possibility depending on the orientation of the fracture, there is still no guarantee that he would have been back this year. It generally takes at least 6-8 weeks to recover from that type of surgery, and I usually give my patients a broader window (6-12 weeks, or even 3-4 months). Not to mention Frank is a big man, and naturally this is a factor as well.

Rest and time are great healers. Sometimes all you can do is wait. That seems to be the sad reality here. :(:

Gimm
08-06-2004, 09:59 PM
Oh good, another 1-run loss. 5 of the last 7 losses have been of 1-run variety.

No, I don't see how a Larry Walker or Delgado or another big bat could have possibly helped us win at least 3 of those games, thus putting us to only 2 games out in the loss column....:rolleyes:





God do I hate the cheap, ball-less goons running this franchise or what!

beckett21
08-06-2004, 10:03 PM
Just a question (that I think might have been answered last month) but will this injury be one that lingers into next year. I certainly expect him to play but would such an injury hinder his performance (it is his "power" foot), or should he be 100% by spring training? Did Levine say anything about this?

One other thing, and I guess this would be directed at beckett21 more than anyone else, is the decision to keep the boot on for another 6-8 weeks in-line with expectations, or is this turning into another prolonged and mysterious Sox injury?Of course I am not close to the situation, but I would anticipate that he should recover 100% from this particular injury (stress fracture). These things can linger if untreated, but with enough rest he should be fine for next season with no long term sequelae.

As far as recommending another 6-8 weeks, this is still within the normal range of healing, albeit reaching the later end of the spectrum. There are no steadfast rules in these types of injuries; you just have to go by clinical symptoms and radiographic (x-ray, MRI, etc.) findings. Some people heal quicker than others, some bones heal quicker than others. Basically, it's healed when it's healed. A fracture is not usually considered *delayed* in healing until the 6-month point. Three months is a standard guideline, but not set in stone.

Gimm
08-06-2004, 10:07 PM
The White Sox attendance has been steady and strong all year this year!

.Unfortunately, Sox management failed to seize the great opportunity and make killer moves to jump-start the offense. Now the team is dying and the sell-outs will soon be history as fans get fed up with JR - judging by the stands, there couldn't have been more than 18-20K tonight, Friday August night.

Losers will be losers and this organization is nothing if not that.

Flight #24
08-06-2004, 10:07 PM
Oh good, another 1-run loss. 5 of the last 7 losses have been of 1-run variety.

No, I don't see how a Larry Walker or Delgado or another big bat could have possibly helped us win at least 3 of those games, thus putting us to only 2 games out in the loss column....:rolleyes:





God do I hate the cheap, ball-less goons running this franchise or what!
Ummmm.......did you ahve a way to convince Carlos to waive his no-trade? It was widely reported that a deal was in place to bring him here.

But that's KW & JR's fault I suppose.

Flight #24
08-06-2004, 10:10 PM
Unfortunately, Sox management failed to seize the great opportunity and make killer moves. Now the team is dying and the sell-outs will soon be history as fans get fed up with JR - judging by the stands, there couldn't have been more than 18-20K tonight, Friday August night.

Losers will be losers and this organization is nothing if not that.
Oh please. They got Garcia. They had a deal in the works for Delgado (or do you blame them for him not wanting to get traded?).

Please dont' tell me you believe that Carlos Beltran was there for the taking.....Can you name me any major hitters that were dealt that we might have had a shot at? Beltran - no, we got Garcia instead (good move). Delgado - no. Nomar - no, didn't match up with BoSox needs. Walker - maybe, but I dont' know anything about the prospects the Cards gave up for him, and IIRC he's got a pretty big contract for next year (and maybe longer?).

Gimm
08-06-2004, 10:21 PM
Ummmm.......did you ahve a way to convince Carlos to waive his no-trade? It was widely reported that a deal was in place to bring him here.

But that's KW & JR's fault I suppose. Don't be obtuse. Delgado is but one example. There are many teams out there that are either out of it or about to be out of it. Rape them, take on their salary, improve your ballclub any way you can.

There is absolutely no way Everett should be a 5-spot hitter or Joe Borchard - starting period. Of course Lee and Konerko get nothing decent to hit these days - what with being "protected" by 650 OPS Jurrasik and 500 OPS Slowswing and all.

I guess you people love losing 5 easily winnable one-run games in a 10 day span. :bandance:

Flight #24
08-06-2004, 10:24 PM
Don't be obtuse. Delgado is but one example. There are many teams out there that are either out of it or about to be out of it. Rape them, take on their salary, improve your ballclub any way you can.

There is absolutely no way Everett should be a 5-spot hitter or Joe Borchard - starting period. Of course Lee and Konerko get nothing to hit these days.

I guess you people love losing 5 easily winnable one-run games in a 10 day span. :bandance:

Yeah, it's that easy. If you're Steinbrenner. When you're the Sox and you actually have some fiscal constraints because you dont' have a bottomless pit of revenues or an endless stream of lemming fans who don't care if you win or are terrible, you don't really have that option.

Gimm
08-06-2004, 10:31 PM
Oh please. They got Garcia. .
Oh please nothing - considering our rotation consisted of Buerhle-Garland-Loaiza-Shoeneweiss-Rauch, NOT getting Garcia would have been suicide.

With Maggs and Hurt down, Garcia is obviously not enough - you need a big-time bat and at least one table setter.

Contreras move was actually very smart, but again, it didn't help address the holes in the line-up. Robbie was one of the table-setters, but you need another - a Lofton perhaps since Robbie is more of a #2 hitter.

And the big bat to take pressure off Lee, Konerko, Everett and Valentin and make them more effective by default (and a balanced line-up will come in handy in those 1- and 2- run games) is absolutely essential. Will cost money and solid prospects. So what, no time to play it conservative.

Flight #24
08-06-2004, 10:38 PM
Oh please nothing - considering our rotation consisted of Buerhle-Garland-Loaiza-Shoeneweiss-Rauch, NOT getting Garcia would have been suicide.

With Maggs and Hurt down, Garcia is obviously not enough - you need a big-time bat and at least one table setter.

Contreras move was actually very smart, but again, it didn't help address the holes in the line-up. Robbie was one of the table-setters, but you need another - a Lofton perhaps since Robbie is more of a #2 hitter.

And the big bat to take pressure off Lee, Konerko, Everett and Valentin and make them more effective by default (and a balanced line-up will come in handy in those 1- and 2- run games) is absolutely essential. Will cost money and solid prospects. So what, no time to play it conservative.
When they got Garcia, Maggs & Frank weren't down, and they were at or near the top in scoring. So to say it was "suicide" NOT to get him.......well, the nice way for me to say it is I disagree. It was a good, aggressive, "go for it" move that they deserve credit for.

I don't think it's as easy as you make it to get the "big bats". Again - players have to agree (in Delgado's case), and you have to factor in longer term ramifications (i.e. if you have a hope of signing Maggs, it goes out the window if you get Walker AND Everett for next year, not to mention that you'd have something like $16mil tied in your slightly above average RF and his backup in 2005).

It may sound odd since I'm generally one of the "prospects are just that - prospects, not guaranteed major leaguers" crowd, but there is a point when you don't give up a talented prospect for an injury-prone, 108ABs all freakin year, $12mil/year player (Walker). I'd do a lesser prospect deal in a heartbeat if the contract was up after this year, but to lock that type of cost in for another year and still not be sure if he can do the job (or if he'll even be on the field more than a week or 2 before going down)......that's kind of a huge risk.

Gimm
08-06-2004, 10:51 PM
Yeah, it's that easy. Easy? Is that your criteria for everything? Hell, getting Garcia was far from easy.

If you're Steinbrenner. BS. Even Delgado, who is BY FAR the most expensive guy out there, would only cost you about 6 extra Mill at this point. Lofton - less than a Mill.


When you're the Sox and you actually have some fiscal constraints because you dont' have a bottomless pit of revenues or an endless stream of lemming fans who don't care if you win or are terrible, you don't really have that option
You actually buy what JR is peddling, don't you? He is not in danger of going into red any time soon.

Anyway. If you can't afford a 72-75 Mill payroll (the current 65 Mill + whatever is needed on serious August upgrades) in a pretty much do-or-die year for your franchise - the Cubs World Series onslaught and all.....knowing full well that the attendance and ratings are way up when the team is winning and the Comcast as well as rev. sharing $$$ will kick in the off-season, to say nothing of the ticket price raise during the season itself to offset the expenses.....If knowing all that, you still are unwilling to open up a purse and take a gamble, you're absolutely WORTHLESS as an owner and deserve all the hate normally directed at you.

Sox are by no means out of it, and every feasible attempt at jump-starting this thing must be made. In fact, had JR/KW had the foresight to build on the momentum right after the Crede walk-off homer against Detroit by acquiring a big-time hitter as well as a table-setter, I guarantee you we would be leading the division right now, instead of losing all those 1-run games and giving Minnesota a huge confidence boost coming into Anaheim series.......And once in the playoffs, ANYTHING is possible. Anything.

Cheapness kills as we found out in 2002 and 2003. Run this team like a hard-core business, never take gambles....and after a few decades, don't be surprised when nobody wants to show up to the park and Cubs hegemony is unshakeable.

Flight #24
08-06-2004, 11:03 PM
BS. Even Delgado, who is BY FAR the most expensive guy out there, would only cost you about 6 extra Mill at this point. Lofton - less than a Mill. Like I said - it's not the contracts that expire after this year that you worry about, it's the Kendalls & Walkers that go on for a few more. They were going to get Delgado, do you think that they decided "well, we dont' want anyone cheaper":?:



Anyway. If you can't afford a 72-75 Mill payroll (the current 65 Mill + whatever is needed on serious August upgrades) in a pretty much do-or-die year for your franchise - the Cubs World Series onslaught and all.....knowing full well that the attendance and ratings are way up when the team is winning and the Comcast and rev. sharing $$$ will kick in the off-season.....to say nothing of tickey raises during the season itself.....If knowing all that, you still are unwilling to open up a purse and take a gamble, you're absolutely WORTHLESS as an owner and deserve all the hate normally directed at you.

Sox are by no means out of it, and every feasible attempt at jump-starting this thing must be made. In fact, had JR/KW had the foresight to build on the momentum after the Crede walk-off homer against Detroit by acquiring a big-time hitter as well as a table-setter, I guarantee you we would be leading the division right now, instead of losing all those 1-run games and giving Minnesota a huge confidence boost coming into Anaheim series.......Cheapness kills as we found out in 2002 and 2003.I'm still curous as to who these "big time hitters" are that you keep talking about being available? Of the top 50 leaders in MLB OPS, only 5 are on teams that would deal them: Burnitz (Coors fraud - check his road stats), Helton(they'd want the entire farm and the one next door), Griffey (do you trust him? And a HUGE contract for a LONG time), Tino Martinez (think he can keep it up? Anyway, they want to keep him), and Luis Gonzalez (nice elbow).

Want to go deeper? Here's the other guys on "bad" teams: Vernon Wells, Brad Wilkerson, Mike Sweeney, Jose Valentin, Jack Wilson, Shea Hillenbrand, Danny Bautista. That last batch has a bunch of younger guys that are not about to be dealt, and guys that I honestly don't think are likely to make much of a difference (Hillenbrand, Wilson, Bautista).

So there's 1 guy (Tino), maybe 2 (Burnitz - and his road OPS is .805, road OBP - .325). And that guy's not available IIRC.

EDIT: For the record, ESPN reports that Larry Walker turned down trades until the Cards one. He almost certainly wasn't coming here even if we were willing to take on the salary.

dickallen15
08-06-2004, 11:22 PM
I'm surprised KW isn't going to activate Frank when the rosters expand to 40. He could still use him as a decoy. :D: :cool: :(: :angry: :whiner:

Gimm
08-06-2004, 11:35 PM
When they got Garcia, Maggs & Frank weren't down, and they were at or near the top in scoring. So to say it was "suicide" NOT to get him.......well, the nice way for me to say it is I disagree. It was a good, aggressive, "go for it" move that they deserve credit for.
.
1. Maggs and Thomas WERE down with knee and foot respectively. I still maintain Sox knew more than they let on but hoped for the better/got tangled up in their own BS plans.

2. It was Kenny's duty as a talent evaluator/GM to anticipate that Uribe, Valentin simply could not keep up the torrid 900 OPS pace and that Willie is not really a .390 OBP player. So even if Sox thought one of Thomas/Maggs was gonna be just fine, they had to anticipate major drop-offs in multiple other areas. This is what KW and his goons get paid big bucks for, afterall.

3. It was clear to every fan with a brain that Loaiza was fried by late June. Mind you, Buerhle was a 4.30 ERA pitcher at that time as well. So a Buerhle-Garland-Loaiza-Shoeneweiss-Rauch rotation was simply NOT good enough especially after the offense was already going into a major funk in Florida, Montreal and against Cleveland.


So yeah, considering everyone was yakking it up about us "going for it" and being world series player, and knowing the above......Garcia simply HAD to be acquired - it was no grand gesture of magnanimity on part of JR, ok?

And if Magglio and Frank successfully came back in July, I wouldn't be calling for Delgado or Walker. But the fact is, they're NOT coming back and Sox brass have known that for a WHILE now. They also had a chance to see the offense die a slow coprseball in the last few weeks without Frank and Maggs, and without good offense giving them leads, pitchers are much less effective as well.

Robbie Alomar was a step in the right direction - he might be a weak hitter as a RH, but with a man at 3rd and 1 out, he had no problem lining the ball hard to the OF off a really tough lefty to score the first run. That's winning baseball. But needless to say Robbie alone is not enough - he only addresses 1 need out of 3. You still need someone like Kenny Lofton to set the table and take pressure off Willie and Aaron, making them better by default. That's need #2 addressed. But even then, the team still needs a MONSTER in the 4 spot to complete change how a pitcher approaches our line-up - which is what Thomas did - and take pressure off Lee, Konerko, Everett, Uribe and Valentin to overachieve. IMO, Delgado could be that player with a change of scenery. Larry Walker looked awfully good, too bad the Cardinals were smarter than everybody else. There are other options out there.

This late in the season, even most expensive players won't break JR's piggy-bank since they would come at a prorated cost. A few fairly talented prospects (top 20, not top 5) tossed in the mix and you'll be suprised what some teams will be willing to give up.

Yes, I figure think JR owes us (and himself!) that much after 20 years of nothing, especially considering where the Cubs currently are. I am sorry you don't agree.

Flight #24
08-06-2004, 11:56 PM
1. Maggs and Thomas WERE down with knee and foot respectively. I still maintain Sox knew more than they let on but hoped for the better/got tangled up in their own BS plans. This is wild speculation with no basis in fact. For the record: the release on the trade on Whitesoxcom is dated 6/27/2004. At the time, Frank was still playing, and Maggs was due back any day (and Bone marrow edema was still unknown). You can believe they knew they were out for the year and didn't want to do anything about it, but there's no evidence to support that.

2. It was Kenny's duty as a talent evaluator/GM to anticipate that Uribe, Valentin simply could not keep up the torrid 900 OPS pace and that Willie is not really a .390 OBP player. So even if Sox thought one of Thomas/Maggs was gonna be just fine, they had to anticipate major drop-offs in multiple other areas. This is what KW and his goons get paid big bucks for, afterall.The point is that even with those guys slumping, with Frank & Maggs around you're still winning games. Plus, I'd argue that the presence of the 2 big guys means Harris & Uribe have higher OBPs because of batting ahead of them and Valentin a higher OPS because of batting more with men on base.

3. It was clear to every fan with a brain that Loaiza was fried by late June. Mind you, Buerhle was a 4.30 ERA pitcher at that time as well. So a Buerhle-Garland-Loaiza-Shoeneweiss-Rauch rotation was simply NOT good enough especially after the offense was already going into a major funk in Florida, Montreal and against Cleveland.


So yeah, considering everyone was yakking it up about us "going for it" and being world series player, and knowing the above......Garcia simply HAD to be acquired - it was no grand gesture of magnanimity on part of JR, ok? Wait a minute - teams don't make big moves all the time even when they're doing well. The Sox did, but they don't get any credit for it:?: . They had to go get a pitcher if they wanted to be a WS contender. They did want that so they got the pitcher. What's your issue?

And if Magglio and Frank successfully came back in July, I wouldn't be calling for Delgado or Walker. But the fact is, they're NOT coming back and Sox brass have known that for a WHILE now. They also had a chance to see the offense die a slow coprseball in the last few weeks without Frank and Maggs, and without good offense giving them leads, pitchers are much less effective as well. More speculation, and in any case, KW has been trying. See Delgado, Carlos and Alomar, Robbie. There aren't many available guys who make a difference, and those that are available have other issues like long term contracts and no-trades.

But even then, the team still needs a MONSTER in the 4 spot to complete change how a pitcher approaches our line-up - which is what Thomas did - and take pressure off Lee, Konerko, Everett, Uribe and Valentin to overachieve. IMO, Delgado could be that player with a change of scenery. Larry Walker looked awfully good, too bad the Cardinals were smarter than everybody else. There are other options out there.

This late in the season, even most expensive players won't break JR's piggy-bank since they would come at a prorated cost. A few fairly talented prospects (top 20, not top 5) tossed in the mix and you'll be suprised what some teams will be willing to give up.Again - who are these players? You act like they're falling off of trees, but outside of Walker, Delgado, and maybe Tino Martinez, I haven't yet seen you ID any and my search didn't uncover any. As I said - the ones who might be available either have long term, expensive contracts that have significant implications for the future, and most of them have no-trades that they aren't likely to waive.

The simple fact that they were willing to do a deal for the most expensive player out there should indicate that they're willing to spend. It's irrational to assume that while they were willing to take on Delgado's salary, they're not willing to take on a LOWER one. It's much more reasonable, and supported by other evidence that the other players either a)aren't available, b)don't want to come here, or c)aren't feasible because of long term deals.

Win1ForMe
08-07-2004, 01:17 AM
Of course I am not close to the situation, but I would anticipate that he should recover 100% from this particular injury (stress fracture). These things can linger if untreated, but with enough rest he should be fine for next season with no long term sequelae.

As far as recommending another 6-8 weeks, this is still within the normal range of healing, albeit reaching the later end of the spectrum. There are no steadfast rules in these types of injuries; you just have to go by clinical symptoms and radiographic (x-ray, MRI, etc.) findings. Some people heal quicker than others, some bones heal quicker than others. Basically, it's healed when it's healed. A fracture is not usually considered *delayed* in healing until the 6-month point. Three months is a standard guideline, but not set in stone.
As usual, thanks for the input. Much appreciated.

Nellie_Fox
08-07-2004, 02:14 AM
For Beckett21:

Is the tarsal navicular similar to the carpal navicular in that the blood supply is only from one side, thus making healing particulary difficult and slow?

I once fractured a carpal navicular, and I was in a cast for thirteen weeks.

Win1ForMe
08-07-2004, 12:29 PM
So I guess now they're talking about surgery, at least according to KW.

Thomas hit .271 with 18 home runs and 49 RBI in 74 games this season. His future with the team is uncertain. He has an $8 million player option that he can pick up for next season. If he declines, the club can exercise an option to keep him for $11 million.

Thomas also went on the disabled list with a stress fracture in his left foot in 1996. Although it's been eight years, the fact it's the same kind of injury has Williams concerned about the slugger's future.

"Frank's had issues with his feet for quite some time," Williams said. "When I hear and this is just my feeling not having talked to the doctor that there is a screw that potentially could be put in if surgery is required, yeah, a man of his size, stature and weight, there are concerns."

Sox trainer Herm Schneider said he didn't know anything about Thomas potentially needing to have a screw placed in his foot. But Schneider did know about Ordonez's return being unlikely.From today's Daily Southtown; also confirmation of Magglio being done for the year.

http://www.dailysouthtown.com/southtown/dssports/pro/071sd1.htm

beckett21
08-07-2004, 04:06 PM
For Beckett21:

Is the tarsal navicular similar to the carpal navicular in that the blood supply is only from one side, thus making healing particulary difficult and slow?

I once fractured a carpal navicular, and I was in a cast for thirteen weeks.Great observation Professor.

You are absolutely correct. The tarsal navicular is particularly avascular in the central 1/3 portion of the bone, and this is typically where the stress fractures are seen. The lack of blood supply delays the healing process.

Just to shed a little more light on the situation, allow me to quote one of my texts, Foot and Ankle Clinics, March, 2004, Volume 9, Number 1 which is titled The Navicular: edited by Mark Meyerson, MD.

From the chapter Stress fractures of the tarsal navicular, authored by Simon Lee, MD and Robert Anderson, MD:

"Navicular stress fractures can take as long as 8 months to heal with conservative treatment...the treating physician needs to maintain discipline and restraint to allow the full course of treatment in the impatient athlete..."

In other words, these injuries are notoriously slow in healing and unpredictable. They are rare, and when they are seen they are usually in elite or dedicated athletes. The authors report an average return to activity in 5.6 months. In reading this chapter it is also mentioned that these injuries are difficult to diagnose and the diagnosis is often delayed. Surgery is mentioned for delayed healing, however requires 12 to 16 weeks before the patient can run. The effectiveness of bone stimulation has not been proven in these cases, either. So, basically, the medical staff has done their job properly (I'm talking to you Lip! :wink: ).

The initial 6-8 week time frame was not impossible, but highly unlikely as it turns out. The odds were against a return, but until he was re-evaluated it was not certain so I'm sure they did not want to jump the gun just in case. Really all you can do is just wait in something like this. It can be very frustrating for doctor and patient (and Sox fan).