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CarlosMay'sThumb
08-06-2004, 09:43 AM
10. Failure of the minor league system to produce anybody who could play at the major league level (Diaz, Cotts, Rausch, Munoz etc)

9. Ozzie Guillen's in-game managing (started Day 1)

8. Failure to recognize that Koch couldn't pitch anymore until he had singlehandedly lost multiple games.

7. Schoenweiss' collapse after May.

6. Garland's failure to develop

5. Loaiza's failure to be half the pitcher he was last year

4. Failure of offensive players (Lee, Konerko, Crede, Valentin) to step up when Frank and Maggs went down.

3. Failure of Kenny Williams to get any offensive help when Frank and Maggs went down

2. Starting the season with only 4 starting pitchers...for the 24th year in a row.
And the number 1 reason the Sox lost this year....:bandance:

1. Injuries to Frank and Maggs

In my opinion Kenny should be fired for reasons #2, #3 and #10

SoxxoS
08-06-2004, 09:48 AM
Good post...however, don't include CLee or Konerko in that list for #4. They have definitely not been the problem. Konerko is having a great year, and CLee is having a solid year.

Also, for #3...KW got Carl Everett. He got Alomar. He had CARLOS DELGADO...what more do you want? What was out there that was feasible.

JDP
08-06-2004, 09:50 AM
Good post...however, don't include CLee or Konerko in that list for #4. They have definitely not been the problem. Konerko is having a great year, and CLee is having a solid year.

Also, for #3...KW got Carl Everett. He got Alomar. He had CARLOS DELGADO...what more do you want? What was out there that was feasible.
Love the franchise, loathe the personnel.

PorkChopExpress
08-06-2004, 09:53 AM
Why is everyone out to get KW? I think he has done a great job. Just because we say we need a bat doesn't mean he can just go out and get one. We have to have something the other teams want. A lot of the "bats" would have to want to come here. Just becasue they are out there doesn't make it a done deal that KW somehow undoes. Don't tell me he isn't trying.

PaulDrake
08-06-2004, 09:54 AM
Good post...however, don't include CLee or Konerko in that list for #4. They have definitely not been the problem. Konerko is having a great year, and CLee is having a solid year.

Also, for #3...KW got Carl Everett. He got Alomar. He had CARLOS DELGADO...what more do you want? What was out there that was feasible. I concur. I also think that reason no. 10 is going to cast a pall over the next few seasons. I hope the Sox have drafted well lately because there ain't much happening down on the farm these days.

joeynach
08-06-2004, 09:54 AM
10. Neil Cotts

9. Billy Koch

8. Mike Jackson

7. Willie Harris

6. Juan Uribe

5. Jose Valentin

4. Joe Crede

3. Esteban Loiaza

2. Scott Schoenweis

1. No Frank & Maggs

OEO Magglio
08-06-2004, 09:55 AM
You don't have to look past number 1, that's the reason.

ChiSoxBobette
08-06-2004, 09:58 AM
10. Failure of the minor league system to produce anybody who could play at the major league level (Diaz, Cotts, Rausch, Munoz etc)

9. Ozzie Guillen's in-game managing (started Day 1)

8. Failure to recognize that Koch couldn't pitch anymore until he had singlehandedly lost multiple games.

7. Schoenweiss' collapse after May.

6. Garland's failure to develop

5. Loaiza's failure to be half the pitcher he was last year

4. Failure of offensive players (Lee, Konerko, Crede, Valentin) to step up when Frank and Maggs went down.

3. Failure of Kenny Williams to get any offensive help when Frank and Maggs went down

2. Starting the season with only 4 starting pitchers...for the 24th year in a row.
And the number 1 reason the Sox lost this year....:bandance:

1. Injuries to Frank and Maggs

In my opinion Kenny should be fired for reasons #2, #3 and #10
I don't know about C.Lee & Pauly not producing C.Lee was carrying us there for a while and Pauly is/was tied for 1st in HR's but if these guys can be pitched around and theres nobody behind them thats going to produce then an opposing teams pitchers don't have to throw anything good to them, C.Lee & Pauly it looked to me then tryed to carry the offense anyway and that causes them to swing at bad pitches.

PaulDrake
08-06-2004, 09:58 AM
You don't have to look past number 1, that's the reason. Sorry I have to disagree. This team isn't that good even if those two guys are healthy. There are far too many holes and weaknesses.

Sell Jerry Sell!
08-06-2004, 09:58 AM
I disagree with your #1 reason. The #1 reason is that Kenny Williams didn't fill this team with his so-called "grinders". this is still a team that hopes for the 3 run homer and when they don't get it they SUCK!!! We have good hitters, instead of getting guys who hit home runs, he should have gotten guys with high OBP and speed threats that actually steal bases (see Willie Harris as an example). If that would have taken place then less pressure would be placed on the remaining power hitters to hit home runs every time up.

Reason #1A should be for constantly trotting Jose Valentin out to shortstop everyday.

gosox41
08-06-2004, 09:59 AM
Why is everyone out to get KW? I think he has done a great job. Just because we say we need a bat doesn't mean he can just go out and get one. We have to have something the other teams want. A lot of the "bats" would have to want to come here. Just becasue they are out there doesn't make it a done deal that KW somehow undoes. Don't tell me he isn't trying.
Is he doing a great job because he's trying?
This is the major leagues, not kindergarten. Maybe people should believe in Yoda's theory.


Bob

Foulke29
08-06-2004, 09:59 AM
10. Failure of the minor league system to produce anybody who could play at the major league level (Diaz, Cotts, Rausch, Munoz etc)


If you're a true Sox fan and going to rip on a Sox player, shouldn't you know how to spell aforementioned player's name?

:supernana:

Rocky Soprano
08-06-2004, 09:59 AM
Not having Frank or Maggs is huge, but not an excuse to be playing crap baseball. This team time and time again show that they have NO HEART, they DONT FIGHT!

While I have not given up just yet, I am really pissed off at the Sox. :angry:

gosox41
08-06-2004, 10:03 AM
Sorry I have to disagree. This team isn't that good even if those two guys are healthy. There are far too many holes and weaknesses.
I agree. If Frank and Magglio are healthy this team should win the weak AL Central. Playoffs are a crapshoot for most teams, but I didn't see this team going to far.

But since they're not healthy they are a third/fourth place team.

Doesi tb other the KW supporters that he has tried to get Frank off the team (only to see it fail) and spent all off season trying to deal Magglio?

KW supporters are saying that that if these two were healthy things would be different, but KW tried to move these guys anyway. How come that doesn't bother anyone. If it weren't for JR's intervention and the A-Rod to Boston trade falling apart neither player would be here right now. Would you still love KW then?


Bob

LuvSox
08-06-2004, 10:13 AM
NO HEART, they DONT FIGHT!
No team leaders. Where are the guys rallying the troops in the dugout? Who deserves to wear a "C" on their jersey? A team leader doesn't always swing for the fence every time up. Base hits lead to big innings. Solo home runs don't do squat.

Flight #24
08-06-2004, 10:14 AM
Doesi tb other the KW supporters that he has tried to get Frank off the team (only to see it fail) and spent all off season trying to deal Magglio?

KW supporters are saying that that if these two were healthy things would be different, but KW tried to move these guys anyway. How come that doesn't bother anyone. If it weren't for JR's intervention and the A-Rod to Boston trade falling apart neither player would be here right now. Would you still love KW then?


Bob
Depends: If we had a healthy (as he was when the deal was discussed), and motivated (as he should have been since the ChiSox weren't the team that "dissed" him), Nomar instead of Maggs, if we had Garcia for Valentin as was rumored in the offseason, depending on who we had for Frank - I might like that team very much.

It's easy to say "he wanted to get rid of those guys", but that's only half of the equation. He wasn't exactly saying " I just want Frank gone", he was going to replace him with something/someone.

StepsInSC
08-06-2004, 10:15 AM
#1 Reason the Sox lost games this year:

The other team scored more runs.

**** happens.

ma_deuce
08-06-2004, 10:16 AM
10. Failure of the minor league system to produce anybody who could play at the major league level (Diaz, Cotts, Rausch, Munoz etc)It takes time to groom players into the majors. Unfortunately, the Sox are not into grooming this year (or any of the last few years). They have been in striking distance and that is not the best place to bring young guys up and test them out.

8. Failure to recognize that Koch couldn't pitch anymore until he had singlehandedly lost multiple games.I think everyone knew Koch was a problem, but they had no solution. Marte was HORRIBLE in April and Takatsu barely made the team after a terrible Spring Training. They had nowhere else to go, until Shingo gave them another option. And as soon as Shingo showed he could do it, Koch was benched and traded.

4. Failure of offensive players (Lee, Konerko, Crede, Valentin) to step up when Frank and Maggs went down.This one is a little disceiving. Valentin did well for a few weeks, got hurt, and then went back to his normal, mediocre self. Crede sucked the entire first half, and is trying to catch up (as he did last year). Lee has been awesome at the fifth spot, but has cooled off in the third. Still, I think Lee will adjust and come back to form. Konerko is in a slump. It happens every year and no one should be shocked. So, yes, I agree that they have failed to step up, but I think the problem is more systemic.

3. Failure of Kenny Williams to get any offensive help when Frank and Maggs went downNow this I totally disagree with. First off, Kenny has a budget. Second, the market was not spilling over with superstar trade prospects. And third, Frank and Maggs will be back. If we start picking up power hitters now, what do we do with them when Frank and Maggs come back? No, we needed to address our defense as well, relying on our current players to keep us above water until September. Unfortunately, these guys have dropped the ball.

1. Injuries to Frank and MaggsAmen to that, brother.

Deuce

Flight #24
08-06-2004, 10:19 AM
Sorry I have to disagree. This team isn't that good even if those two guys are healthy. There are far too many holes and weaknesses.
Puh-leeze.

No one cares if Crede's hitting .230 with Frank & Maggs back becase we dont' depend on his offense.

Harris/Uribe are pitched to completely differently with Frank & Maggs coming up behind them than with Carlos & Paulie.

Calors & Paulie are among the best #3 & 4 offensive options in baseball. They're average or worse as #1 & 2 options.

Even Jose is likely a different hitter coming up after Frank-Maggs-Lee-Konerko than with the bases empty as seems to happen almost every time.

With all of our "holes", we've lost 4 1-run and 4-2run games since the break. You really think we don't take at least half of those if we add Frank & Maggs back into this lineup? That's the difference.

Iguana775
08-06-2004, 10:20 AM
This is a completely different lineup with Frank in there. pitchers respect him too much and he can draw walks and get on base. exactly what the team needs. He has the ability to carry a team. no one on the team has that ability right now...even maggs.

gosox41
08-06-2004, 10:21 AM
Depends: If we had a healthy (as he was when the deal was discussed), and motivated (as he should have been since the ChiSox weren't the team that "dissed" him), Nomar instead of Maggs, if we had Garcia for Valentin as was rumored in the offseason, depending on who we had for Frank - I might like that team very much.

It's easy to say "he wanted to get rid of those guys", but that's only half of the equation. He wasn't exactly saying " I just want Frank gone", he was going to replace him with something/someone.
But based on his acquisitions it probably would have been another player good enough to come off the bench.

And does it count when KW wants to trade Garland for Erstad? He agreed to that deal but thankfully the people at Disney were more interested in marketing and didn't want to trade one of its most popular players. The deal didn't happen, but it wasn't because KW thought it was a bad deal (which it was ) it was because the Sox were lucky the other party backed out.


Bob

Iguana775
08-06-2004, 10:21 AM
#1 Reason the Sox lost games this year:

The other team scored more runs.

**** happens.Really? i was for sure that it was cause KW peed in the wrong toilet. :cool:

OEO Magglio
08-06-2004, 10:27 AM
Puh-leeze.

No one cares if Crede's hitting .230 with Frank & Maggs back becase we dont' depend on his offense.

Harris/Uribe are pitched to completely differently with Frank & Maggs coming up behind them than with Carlos & Paulie.

Calors & Paulie are among the best #3 & 4 offensive options in baseball. They're average or worse as #1 & 2 options.

Even Jose is likely a different hitter coming up after Frank-Maggs-Lee-Konerko than with the bases empty as seems to happen almost every time.

With all of our "holes", we've lost 4 1-run and 4-2run games since the break. You really think we don't take at least half of those if we add Frank & Maggs back into this lineup? That's the difference.Bingo. The sox were among the best teams in baseball when they had Frank and Maggs. Actually number 1 is kenny williams, he made no trades, who cares if we lost our two best players if we had a good gm he could have acquired Barry Bonds and Alex Rodriguez.

Flight #24
08-06-2004, 10:27 AM
But based on his acquisitions it probably would have been another player good enough to come off the bench.

And does it count when KW wants to trade Garland for Erstad? He agreed to that deal but thankfully the people at Disney were more interested in marketing and didn't want to trade one of its most popular players. The deal didn't happen, but it wasn't because KW thought it was a bad deal (which it was ) it was because the Sox were lucky the other party backed out.


Bob
That first point has no basis in fact or even rumor. The only possible rumore wwas Nomar being flipped to LA for Mota+Perez+a bunch of top prospects. I don't think that would have been a terrible deal, depending on what FA mvoes were made with the $$$.

As for Garland-Erstad, given the way that Garland's been ripped around here for his lack of development, combined with the clamoring for grit & fundamentals on offense, I think there are many who woulnd't mind having Darin instead of Jon right now.

kittle42
08-06-2004, 10:38 AM
If you're a true Sox fan and going to rip on a Sox player, shouldn't you know how to spell aforementioned player's name?

Yes.

voodoochile
08-06-2004, 10:43 AM
Sorry I have to disagree. This team isn't that good even if those two guys are healthy. There are far too many holes and weaknesses.
That's bull.

They were in first place just a week ago before Maggs went back down. With ONE of those guys healthy they are division contenders. With both, they would be pennant contenders.

Don't believe for a minute that the pressing and poor play you see currently would be happening if the team were healthy.

CarlosMay'sThumb
08-06-2004, 11:08 AM
It takes time to groom players into the majors. Unfortunately, the Sox are not into grooming this year (or any of the last few years). They have been in striking distance and that is not the best place to bring young guys up and test them out.

I think everyone knew Koch was a problem, but they had no solution. Marte was HORRIBLE in April and Takatsu barely made the team after a terrible Spring Training. They had nowhere else to go, until Shingo gave them another option. And as soon as Shingo showed he could do it, Koch was benched and traded.

This one is a little disceiving. Valentin did well for a few weeks, got hurt, and then went back to his normal, mediocre self. Crede sucked the entire first half, and is trying to catch up (as he did last year). Lee has been awesome at the fifth spot, but has cooled off in the third. Still, I think Lee will adjust and come back to form. Konerko is in a slump. It happens every year and no one should be shocked. So, yes, I agree that they have failed to step up, but I think the problem is more systemic.

Now this I totally disagree with. First off, Kenny has a budget. Second, the market was not spilling over with superstar trade prospects. And third, Frank and Maggs will be back. If we start picking up power hitters now, what do we do with them when Frank and Maggs come back? No, we needed to address our defense as well, relying on our current players to keep us above water until September. Unfortunately, these guys have dropped the ball.

Amen to that, brother.

Deuce
Firstly, everybody knew that Koch sucked last year. This should have been addressed during the offseason, not 2 months in.

Secondly, I'm not saying that Carlos and Konerko sucked, I'm saying that didn't step up to fill the void.

Thirdly, how does Hendry come up with Ramirez last year and Nomar this year for basically nothing? Fans have no way of knowing what's available. Lot's of players you would never expect are available for the right deal. Somehow Hendry manages to make those critical deals and Kenny can't. Also, nobody expects Maggs or Frank to come back this year. Certainly not in enough time to save this season. I wouldn't spend alot of time worrying about having too many hitters.

PaulDrake
08-06-2004, 11:11 AM
That's bull.

They were in first place just a week ago before Maggs went back down. With ONE of those guys healthy they are division contenders. With both, they would be pennant contenders.

Don't believe for a minute that the pressing and poor play you see currently would be happening if the team were healthy. Ok let me pick myself up, and rub a little dirt in my wounds. I'm a Sox fan, I can take a little rough stuff, even from my all my friends and admirers here. The Sox are just not that good a team even with Frank and Maggs. When you get past Buerhle and Garcia who do you really trust in that rotation? The inning eaters in the bullpen (Adkins, Cotts, Jackson, Politte) have been inconsistent at best. Borchard is a bust,I gave up on him, and Crede has disappointed, although I have by no means have given up on him. I love Valentin, but he is getting long in the tooth. Uribe was a one or two month wonder. Harris can't seem to make the most out of his talent, I don't think he's going to work out. The catching situation is pathetic. I mean be objective. As I've said elsewhere, I'd much rather the Sox win than be right, but I couldn't under the best of circumstances see this team being any better than a first round loser in the playoffs. Just to let you know, rip away on me. I'm still planning trying out you new restaurant in the fall sometime. I'm about a four or five hours drive away. Hope it's going well for you.

JRIG
08-06-2004, 11:15 AM
Why is everyone out to get KW? I think he has done a great job. Just because we say we need a bat doesn't mean he can just go out and get one. We have to have something the other teams want. A lot of the "bats" would have to want to come here. Just becasue they are out there doesn't make it a done deal that KW somehow undoes. Don't tell me he isn't trying.
If a Sox GM actually gets this team to the playoffs I can't imagine the praise he'll get. I man, if KW fits the definition of "great..."

And we don't have anything other teams want because KW can't evaluate talent.

greenpeach
08-06-2004, 11:17 AM
Thirdly, how does Hendry come up with Ramirez last year and Nomar this year for basically nothing? Fans have no way of knowing what's available. Lot's of players you would never expect are available for the right deal. Somehow Hendry manages to make those critical deals and Kenny can't. Also, nobody expects Maggs or Frank to come back this year. Certainly not in enough time to save this season. I wouldn't spend alot of time worrying about having too many hitters.
Hendry & the Flubs have a 95 million dollar budget. KW has a 60-65 million dollar budget. Now, what don't you understand ? I think KW has done a solid job under the circumstances. The bottom line is that monetarily we are a middle-market team in the third largest market in baseball.

voodoochile
08-06-2004, 11:26 AM
Ok let me pick myself up, and rub a little dirt in my wounds. I'm a Sox fan, I can take a little rough stuff, even from my all my friends and admirers here. The Sox are just not that good a team even with Frank and Maggs. When you get past Buerhle and Garcia who do you really trust in that rotation? The inning eaters in the bullpen (Adkins, Cotts, Jackson, Politte) have been inconsistent at best. Borchard is a bust,I gave up on him, and Crede has disappointed, although I have by no means have given up on him. I love Valentin, but he is getting long in the tooth. Uribe was a one or two month wonder. Harris can't seem to make the most out of his talent, I don't think he's going to work out. The catching situation is pathetic. I mean be objective. As I've said elsewhere, I'd much rather the Sox win than be right, but I couldn't under the best of circumstances see this team being any better than a first round loser in the playoffs. Just to let you know, rip away on me. I'm still planning trying out you new restaurant in the fall sometime. I'm about a four or five hours drive away. Hope it's going well for you.
Many of those problems are minimized with the offensive production that Frank and Maggs bring (an average of about 2 runs a game combined over the course of their careers).

I agree about Harris, but would prefer seeing Uribe every day at 2B anyway. I think Jose's problems are caused by pressing. Uribe may or may not work out long term, but just as his 2 month bust out wasn't a reason to call him a HOF'er, his recent struggles are no reason to label him a bust either.

Catching situation never was amazing and Garcia is worth more than Olivo, IMO, so I take that anyway.

I haven't given up on Crede either and the point about the long relievers seems moot. If you need long relievers in the playoffs, you are screwed anyway.

I still believe that with Frank and Maggs, this team wins the division and makes some noise in the playoffs. Maybe I am naive or hopelessly optimistic, but then again, it is JMHO...

Flight #24
08-06-2004, 12:06 PM
The problem we're having is that this was a team designed to play a certain style of ball. Good pitching, and a great offense that wasn't really into smallball. You can argue whether or not that was a good plan, but to was working and the Sox were one of the top scoring teams in baseball and one of the best ones overall.

Then they lost their 2 big guns. not only can you not replace those types of guys, but now you have to try and change the remaining guys to play somethign they're not used to. Uribe & Harris probably aren't asked to bunt as much with Frank & Maggs coming up behind them. Add to that that these guys were known to have holes in their games, but that was OK because the offense could cover for them. Now the offense can't cover for them, they're asked to do more, and do it in a different way than they're used to. So they fail.

This is a totally different team with Frank & Maggs, playing a different style. heck - even with one of them back it's totally different. And it was a successful one.

The proof will be in what happens if/when Frank and/or Maggs come back this year, or at least next year with Frank back.

ChiSoxBobette
08-06-2004, 12:17 PM
Not having Frank or Maggs is huge, but not an excuse to be playing crap baseball. This team time and time again show that they have NO HEART, they DONT FIGHT!

While I have not given up just yet, I am really pissed off at the Sox. :angry:
I'd have to agree with you, because nobody is going to tell me this team is'nt as good as the A's look at the A's lineup and right now with Garcia on our pitching staff our staff could be as good as thiers if Garland would get his head out of his butt. The only difference is that the A's battle you all game long and the White Sox don't if they get down by 3/4 runs early they seem to throw in the towel especially now after the break. Its about time we get people on base in front of the guys that seem to hit HR's with nobody on base or put together 4/5 hits in a row.

Dadawg_77
08-06-2004, 01:14 PM
1. Lee .358
2. Konerko . 361
3. Uribe .315
4. Crede .292
5. Valentin .298
6. Harris .355
7. Thomas .434
8. Rowand .364
8a. Olivo .316
9. Mags .351
10. Timo .300
11. Alomar .298
12. Gload .324

Team .337 13th MLB

That is every Sox player with over 100 PA and their OBP with the Teams OPB. That folks is the reason the Sox will not win the Central. They are ranked in order of TPA, 1 most 12 least.

Flight #24
08-06-2004, 01:17 PM
1. Lee .358
2. Konerko . 361
3. Uribe .315
4. Crede .292
5. Valentin .298
6. Harris .355
7. Thomas .434
8. Rowand .364
8a. Olivo .316
9. Mags .351
10. Timo .300
11. Alomar .298
12. Gload .324

Team .337 13th MLB

That is every Sox player with over 100 PA and their OBP with the Teams OPB. That folks is the reason the Sox will not win the Central.
Except that the team OBP rises significantly with fewer ABs from Timo/Gload & more from Maggs & Thomas. not to mention that IMO Willie & Juan's OBP rises with those guys hitting behind them in the lineup. The real question is - what were their OBPs and the team's OBP on 7/1?

ma_deuce
08-06-2004, 01:54 PM
Firstly, everybody knew that Koch sucked last year. This should have been addressed during the offseason, not 2 months in.
After last years performance, I doubt anyone would have traded for him. How Kenny duped the Fish into taking him is beyond me. I do agree, that it would have best been handled offseason, but I don't think it was possible. Short of paying him $2 mil to stay home (which Jerry would never do), the only option we had was play him until something better happens.

Secondly, I'm not saying that Carlos and Konerko sucked, I'm saying that didn't step up to fill the void.
True.

Thirdly, how does Hendry come up with Ramirez last year and Nomar this year for basically nothing?
First off, Nomar was almost a Sox player, but the deal went down. Unable to get anything better, the Red Sox would have traded him for a bag of balls. He was not returning next year and he has been hurt throughout this season. The Cubs didn't pull off a masterful trade there.

Deuce

jabrch
08-06-2004, 01:57 PM
10. Failure of the minor league system to produce anybody who could play at the major league level (Diaz, Cotts, Rausch, Munoz etc)


3. Failure of Kenny Williams to get any offensive help when Frank and Maggs went down

2. Starting the season with only 4 starting pitchers...for the 24th year in a row.
And the number 1 reason the Sox lost this year....:bandance:

1. Injuries to Frank and Maggs

In my opinion Kenny should be fired for reasons #2, #3 and #10
Didn't he go out and get Everett when Frank went down?

jabrch
08-06-2004, 01:59 PM
Not having Frank or Maggs is huge, but not an excuse to be playing crap baseball. This team time and time again show that they have NO HEART, they DONT FIGHT!

While I have not given up just yet, I am really pissed off at the Sox. :angry:
Teams with "no heart" would not do as well in 1 run games as we have over the course of the season. I don't think it is "no heart" - that sounds like a copout to me. I'd blame the execution more than anything.

StockdaleForVeep
08-06-2004, 02:10 PM
10. Failure of the minor league system to produce anybody who could play at the major league level (Diaz, Cotts, Rausch, Munoz etc)

9. Ozzie Guillen's in-game managing (started Day 1)

8. Failure to recognize that Koch couldn't pitch anymore until he had singlehandedly lost multiple games.

7. Schoenweiss' collapse after May.

6. Garland's failure to develop

5. Loaiza's failure to be half the pitcher he was last year

4. Failure of offensive players (Lee, Konerko, Crede, Valentin) to step up when Frank and Maggs went down.

3. Failure of Kenny Williams to get any offensive help when Frank and Maggs went down

2. Starting the season with only 4 starting pitchers...for the 24th year in a row.
And the number 1 reason the Sox lost this year....:bandance:

1. Injuries to Frank and Maggs

In my opinion Kenny should be fired for reasons #2, #3 and #10
10-what team goes into a season thinking they will need MAJOR help from their minors, you build a team that doesnt require the minors, when we began we looked ok(yes danny wright at first seemed ok) You cannot blame huge losses of mags and thomas and the call up of borchard as a reason, what more would you have kw do
9-specifics?
8-You need to give chances, when you spend so much on a pitcher, you have to give a chance, hence why he was ganked after he walked a run in
7-i'll give you this, from day one i didnt like him, i knew theres a reason why anahiem let him go
6-garland is doin his usual, so he hasnt helped nor hurt
5-i'll give you this
4-How many ball clubs can you argue can make up for that big loss, also, being tied for the HR lead with konerko, you say he hasnt picked up his slack when it counted?
3-everett?
2-wright was with us, so was robert person before he was lost to injury
1-i agree but seasons not over

kw should not be fired for any

soxtalker
08-06-2004, 02:56 PM
It wasn't just the loss of both Frank and Maggs that hurt us, but also the timing of those injuries. IIRC, both went on the disabled list in the late June to mid July time frame. Both (particularly Maggs) took some time before the seriousness of the injury was apparent. So, it wasn't until about two weeks before the trading deadline that the magnitude of the problem was apparent. That left very little time for adjustments -- both trades by KW and changes to the playing style of team.

OEO Magglio
08-06-2004, 03:23 PM
Many of those problems are minimized with the offensive production that Frank and Maggs bring (an average of about 2 runs a game combined over the course of their careers).

I agree about Harris, but would prefer seeing Uribe every day at 2B anyway. I think Jose's problems are caused by pressing. Uribe may or may not work out long term, but just as his 2 month bust out wasn't a reason to call him a HOF'er, his recent struggles are no reason to label him a bust either.

Catching situation never was amazing and Garcia is worth more than Olivo, IMO, so I take that anyway.

I haven't given up on Crede either and the point about the long relievers seems moot. If you need long relievers in the playoffs, you are screwed anyway.

I still believe that with Frank and Maggs, this team wins the division and makes some noise in the playoffs. Maybe I am naive or hopelessly optimistic, but then again, it is JMHO...Your not being naive at all. Look the sox swept minny without maggs, they were one of the best teams in the al having missed maggs most of the year, plus when frank and maggs were together there was no Garcia, there was no Contreras, are pitching had a major upgrade. If frank and maggs were healthy together with garcia and with contreras this team is easily a pennant contender and could compete with anyone in baseball.

Flight #24
08-06-2004, 03:24 PM
It wasn't just the loss of both Frank and Maggs that hurt us, but also the timing of those injuries. IIRC, both went on the disabled list in the late June to mid July time frame. Both (particularly Maggs) took some time before the seriousness of the injury was apparent. So, it wasn't until about two weeks before the trading deadline that the magnitude of the problem was apparent. That left very little time for adjustments -- both trades by KW and changes to the playing style of team.
Not to mention that if they go down early in the season and come back with 2 months to play, there's plenty of time for the team to go on a run and possibly win. The slump & tailspin happening later int he season makes it that much tougher to recover from. If we were 8 out on 8/1 with both guys back, i'd think we had a decent shot. Being 6 out with little hope of either coming back is tough to rebound from.

Hangar18
08-06-2004, 04:19 PM
Doesi tb other the KW supporters that he has tried to get Frank off the team (only to see it fail) and spent all off season trying to deal Magglio?

KW supporters are saying that that if these two were healthy things would be different, but KW tried to move these guys anyway. How come that doesn't bother anyone. If it weren't for JR's intervention and the A-Rod to Boston trade falling apart neither player would be here right now. Would you still love KW then?

Well said. Were brutal and totally miss Maggs, yet this team is Stupid enough to continue to let him go. Imagine if that deal did go thru. Nomar
wouldnt be here lifting the Trib/Cub machine to new heights ............

Hangar18
08-06-2004, 04:24 PM
Wait til Next Year has never rang as Hollow as it does today.
Im sick of waiting-til-next-year. sick and tired.

Flight #24
08-06-2004, 04:30 PM
Well said. Were brutal and totally miss Maggs, yet this team is Stupid enough to continue to let him go. Imagine if that deal did go thru. Nomar
wouldnt be here lifting the Trib/Cub machine to new heights ............I don't quite get it. Had the Maggs-ARod-Nomar dela gone through, we'd have Nomar, and IIRC, part B of that plan was to ship Valentin to the M's for Garcia (I know it was the M's, not 100% sure on the Garcia part).

Adding Nomar to this team instead of Maggs would probably have been very good since we didn't end up having Maggs anyway so the first half loss of Nomar wouldn't have changed much.

And for the record - what would you offer Maggs right now Hangar? $70/5 with the potential for arthritis in the knee? $12/1? $30/2?


EDIT: I do recall discussions that Nomar woudl go to LA, but that would have given us a stud 'pen (Mota), a 5th starter from day 1 (Perez), and some pretty good pitching prospects. We might then have Reed up instead of Borchard and we'd still ahve Olivo (for all the good that would do us).

CarlosMay'sThumb
08-06-2004, 05:26 PM
10-what team goes into a season thinking they will need MAJOR help from their minors, you build a team that doesnt require the minors, when we began we looked ok(yes danny wright at first seemed ok) You cannot blame huge losses of mags and thomas and the call up of borchard as a reason, what more would you have kw do
9-specifics?
8-You need to give chances, when you spend so much on a pitcher, you have to give a chance, hence why he was ganked after he walked a run in
7-i'll give you this, from day one i didnt like him, i knew theres a reason why anahiem let him go
6-garland is doin his usual, so he hasnt helped nor hurt
5-i'll give you this
4-How many ball clubs can you argue can make up for that big loss, also, being tied for the HR lead with konerko, you say he hasnt picked up his slack when it counted?
3-everett?
2-wright was with us, so was robert person before he was lost to injury
1-i agree but seasons not over

kw should not be fired for any
10. The reason I put it last was that the minors are the least important reason. Having said that, all good teams have somebody come up from the minors and contribute (i.e. Lew Ford). The complete failure of anybody to come up and do anything is glaring.
9. Day 1 against K.C. There have been multiple instances where Ozzie failed to bring in a pinch hitter (leaving Borch in the other day with Rowand on the bench), obvious bunt situations and pitching changes.
8. Koch had a ridiculous number of chances last year. He had no business pitching one game this year. If KW could trade him to the Marlins after his repeat atrocious performances, it seems to me he could have gotten even more this off season.
6. Garland's performances are mediocre. He has never been a #3 and because KW put him in that position to start the season, I think you have to say his performance was a negative.
4. I don't necessarily mean that Konerko and Lee are capable of picking up the slack after Maggs and Frank went down, but still their failure to do so is a big reason the Sox didn't win the division.
3. Did you mean to put that in green? Everett? Are you serious? Compared to Nomar this year or Ramirez last year for the Cubs? Come on.
2. Did you mean to put that in green? Wright and Person? On a contending ball club? Wright has been consistently bad and should never have been considered a starter.

KW must be fired for 2, 3 and 10

OEO Magglio
08-06-2004, 05:34 PM
10. The reason I put it last was that the minors are the least important reason. Having said that, all good teams have somebody come up from the minors and contribute (i.e. Lew Ford). The complete failure of anybody to come up and do anything is glaring.
9. Day 1 against K.C. There have been multiple instances where Ozzie failed to bring in a pinch hitter (leaving Borch in the other day with Rowand on the bench), obvious bunt situations and pitching changes.
8. Koch had a ridiculous number of chances last year. He had no business pitching one game this year. If KW could trade him to the Marlins after his repeat atrocious performances, it seems to me he could have gotten even more this off season.
6. Garland's performances are mediocre. He has never been a #3 and because KW put him in that position to start the season, I think you have to say his performance was a negative.
4. I don't necessarily mean that Konerko and Lee are capable of picking up the slack after Maggs and Frank went down, but still their failure to do so is a big reason the Sox didn't win the division.
3. Did you mean to put that in green? Everett? Are you serious? Compared to Nomar this year or Ramirez last year for the Cubs? Come on.
2. Did you mean to put that in green? Wright and Person? On a contending ball club? Wright has been consistently bad and should never have been considered a starter.

KW must be fired for 2, 3 and 10Good for Hendry that he acquired ramirez. Maybe if Kenny had a payroll to work with like Hendry then he could have done the same thing.

Parrothead
08-06-2004, 05:51 PM
10. Failure of the minor league system to produce anybody who could play at the major league level (Diaz, Cotts, Rausch, Munoz etc)

9. Ozzie Guillen's in-game managing (started Day 1)

8. Failure to recognize that Koch couldn't pitch anymore until he had singlehandedly lost multiple games.

7. Schoenweiss' collapse after May.

6. Garland's failure to develop

5. Loaiza's failure to be half the pitcher he was last year

4. Failure of offensive players (Lee, Konerko, Crede, Valentin) to step up when Frank and Maggs went down.

3. Failure of Kenny Williams to get any offensive help when Frank and Maggs went down

2. Starting the season with only 4 starting pitchers...for the 24th year in a row.
And the number 1 reason the Sox lost this year....:bandance:

1. Injuries to Frank and Maggs

In my opinion Kenny should be fired for reasons #2, #3 and #10
Other team scored more runs.......

kojak
08-06-2004, 10:06 PM
The biggest reason outside of Frank and Maggs is without a DOUBT our inability to consistently place OBP in the top 2 positions in the batting order.


Priority #1 for the off season must be getting a leadoff hitter, preferably one that plays middle infield.

Rowand will thrive in the #2 spot.
Let Uribe play full time at the other mid-infield spot, dump
Harris and Valentin could be our backup utility guy.
Then we re-sign Maggs, and we will be a juggernaut next season.

DannyCaterFan
08-06-2004, 10:35 PM
:mad: It's time to blow up the Sox and start over. Do not bring this group back. 1 through 9 they all lack something.

StockdaleForVeep
08-07-2004, 02:33 AM
10. The reason I put it last was that the minors are the least important reason. Having said that, all good teams have somebody come up from the minors and contribute (i.e. Lew Ford). The complete failure of anybody to come up and do anything is glaring.
9. Day 1 against K.C. There have been multiple instances where Ozzie failed to bring in a pinch hitter (leaving Borch in the other day with Rowand on the bench), obvious bunt situations and pitching changes.
8. Koch had a ridiculous number of chances last year. He had no business pitching one game this year. If KW could trade him to the Marlins after his repeat atrocious performances, it seems to me he could have gotten even more this off season.
6. Garland's performances are mediocre. He has never been a #3 and because KW put him in that position to start the season, I think you have to say his performance was a negative.
4. I don't necessarily mean that Konerko and Lee are capable of picking up the slack after Maggs and Frank went down, but still their failure to do so is a big reason the Sox didn't win the division.
3. Did you mean to put that in green? Everett? Are you serious? Compared to Nomar this year or Ramirez last year for the Cubs? Come on.
2. Did you mean to put that in green? Wright and Person? On a contending ball club? Wright has been consistently bad and should never have been considered a starter.

KW must be fired for 2, 3 and 10
Everett did start off hot when we got him, bear in mind he was hurt start of the season and then had a quad injury, regardless what you think, this is an all star hitter.

2. So when the cubs went into the season with glendon rusch penciled in as their starter for prior, why did no one say "ARE YOU CRAZY?! TRADE FOR RANDY JOHNSON!!!" Wright started off pre season very well, untill his arm went bad again. Or how about houston letting wagner go and having dotel close, here are both examples and both teams prospered with what they had(dotel did close decent for houston) Look at loiaza last year, he was a fluke yes but he did what everyone expected him NOT to be. Had wright stayed healthy and won 10 games or person, you would proclaim kw a genius and not a victim of luck.

for garland i state again, he's doing his normal 500 season, he's not helping nor hurting.

Had oz's plans worked instead of being blunders, you were proclaim him a managerial genius. Also, remember, this is his first year coaching, i suppose your mad at joey cora for sendin willin tonight as well. Blunder?

StockdaleForVeep
08-07-2004, 02:36 AM
:mad: It's time to blow up the Sox and start over. Do not bring this group back. 1 through 9 they all lack something.

Will you be complaining if we should start rebuilding and our former players are becoming great run producing players?

Also, can you tell me what studs are out there in the minors or early majors that we can blow this team up to be our future? Im curious to know who you forsee out next savior.....build this team around wilson valdez perhaps?

CarlosMay'sThumb
08-07-2004, 12:29 PM
Everett did start off hot when we got him, bear in mind he was hurt start of the season and then had a quad injury, regardless what you think, this is an all star hitter.

2. So when the cubs went into the season with glendon rusch penciled in as their starter for prior, why did no one say "ARE YOU CRAZY?! TRADE FOR RANDY JOHNSON!!!" Wright started off pre season very well, untill his arm went bad again. Or how about houston letting wagner go and having dotel close, here are both examples and both teams prospered with what they had(dotel did close decent for houston) Look at loiaza last year, he was a fluke yes but he did what everyone expected him NOT to be. Had wright stayed healthy and won 10 games or person, you would proclaim kw a genius and not a victim of luck.

for garland i state again, he's doing his normal 500 season, he's not helping nor hurting.

Had oz's plans worked instead of being blunders, you were proclaim him a managerial genius. Also, remember, this is his first year coaching, i suppose your mad at joey cora for sendin willin tonight as well. Blunder?Everett was hurting because he's old and everybody knew it. The quad injury was entirely foreseeable. KW's attempt to bring in Everett and Alomar (again) is pathetic and way too little, way too late. They are not all stars now and never will come close again.

The difference between using Rusch as an emergency starter after Prior went down in spring training and KW's going into the season (again) without a fifth starter and a very questionable #s 3 and 4 is obvious. The Cubs did get lucky that Rusch was so good, but Prior's injury forced them into that situation. Kenny chose to start the season without a fifth starter. And if Wright or Person had won ten games that would have been a miracle akin to parting the Red Sea.

Garland's .500 season for the umpteenth year in a row is killing the Sox. Every year he's thought of as a number 3 when he's barely a 4 and most likely a 5. That confuses the issue as to what is necessary. Next year we need a 4 and Garland is a 5. Then Garland's mediocre performance won't hurt so much.

And you're right - if Ozzie's plans had worked he'd be a genius. Just like if Custer's plan had worked he would have won the battle of Little Big Horn. But the fact is they were blunders, and Ozzie and Custer both lost.

I had no problem with sending Harris. The Sox are so pathetic at scoring runs (because their GM did not address their needs) that Cora had to send him.

Jerome
08-07-2004, 01:31 PM
10. KW Sucks

9. The Chicago media favoring the Cubs, giving them more coverage.

8. Bad defense

7. No All-Stars

6. Jay Mariotti

5. Bad Bunting/Not enough Grinders

4. Failure to aquire Carlos Delgado

3. Failure to aquire Randy Johnson

2. Our lineup was never able to recover from the loss of a catcher who was hitting .270 with little power.

1. THE ONLY REASON WE ARE PLAYING SO POORLY IS BECAUSE WE HAVE LOST OUR 3 and 4 HITTERS. HOW THE HELL DO YOU EXPECT A TEAM BUILT ON OFFENSE TO PLAY W/O FRANK AND MAGGS?

SomebodyToldMe
08-07-2004, 01:42 PM
1. the twins keep winning when we lose. or when they lose, we lose as well, thus causing us not to gain any ground.

voodoochile
08-08-2004, 12:52 AM
1. the twins keep winning when we lose. or when they lose, we lose as well, thus causing us not to gain any ground.
Yeah, but what happens when we win.... oh... right... nevermind...:(:

Lip Man 1
08-08-2004, 01:23 AM
No quality depth because payroll restraints won't allow it. Gload, Perez, Burke and Dransfeld work cheap.

Lip