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joeynach
08-06-2004, 10:02 AM
That is the question. Which direction should this team head in and which one is it. I for one do not have the answer. However if you break down our team bit by bit the answer emerges. In the past 3 years or so we have probably "lost the farm" we have traded 9 prospects in the past 2 seasons for verteran rent a players to make a stretch runs and a good solid freddy garcia. Granted these players were still only prospects and hit or miss in themselves. But when you look back in 2000 we had hte most pitching prospects of any team. We have gotten rid of the Barcelo, Lowe, Howry, Glover.......everyone in our system who was supposed to be something. And thus that was the last rebuliding phase.

In order to rebuild you and your fans have to be comitted to a few seaons of below average ball and no name players, low attendance, high era's etc. Its called player devolpment. The problem is A. sox fans despisre this as they are very winning passionate and B. sox management doens't have the tools in place. To rebuild you need a stocked farm, you need propspects at the level ready to come up and get there major leage reps. Unfortunatly for us we dont have many prospects nor ones that are ready to be at this level even if it is for a trial. Honel, Sweeney, Anderson, Grillie, and others might be something one day but are still a few years away from even being ready for the majors.

So there in lies the answer the piece are not internall in place to rebuild. Which forces us to the complete the puzzle via trades and free agency, something the sox are not the best at. Let us hope his free agent offseason brings us more puzzle pieces than before. As glaring holes have emerged i hope management realizes what it has to do to win and that at least for 05 it wont be coming from our minor leagues.

PorkChopExpress
08-06-2004, 10:12 AM
That is the question. Which direction should this team head in and which one is it. I for one do not have the answer. However if you break down our team bit by bit the answer emerges. In the past 3 years or so we have probably "lost the farm" we have traded 9 prospects in the past 2 seasons for verteran rent a players to make a stretch runs and a good solid freddy garcia. Granted these players were still only prospects and hit or miss in themselves. But when you look back in 2000 we had hte most pitching prospects of any team. We have gotten rid of the Barcelo, Lowe, Howry, Glover.......everyone in our system who was supposed to be something. And thus that was the last rebuliding phase.

In order to rebuild you and your fans have to be comitted to a few seaons of below average ball and no name players, low attendance, high era's etc. Its called player devolpment. The problem is A. sox fans despisre this as they are very winning passionate and B. sox management doens't have the tools in place. To rebuild you need a stocked farm, you need propspects at the level ready to come up and get there major leage reps. Unfortunatly for us we dont have many prospects nor ones that are ready to be at this level even if it is for a trial. Honel, Sweeney, Anderson, Grillie, and others might be something one day but are still a few years away from even being ready for the majors.

So there in lies the answer the piece are not internall in place to rebuild. Which forces us to the complete the puzzle via trades and free agency, something the sox are not the best at. Let us hope his free agent offseason brings us more puzzle pieces than before. As glaring holes have emerged i hope management realizes what it has to do to win and that at least for 05 it wont be coming from our minor leagues.
I thought rebuilding can also be done by trading off the players you have now for prospects to restock the farm system. If this year does not pan out, I can see this as a definite possibility. KW has had it with this team. They have the tools, but don't come to play all of the time. Hence a few of them (C.Lee, Willie, Crede) can expect to be playing somewhere else next year.

joeynach
08-06-2004, 10:19 AM
I thought rebuilding can also be done by trading off the players you have now for prospects to restock the farm system. If this year does not pan out, I can see this as a definite possibility. KW has had it with this team. They have the tools, but don't come to play all of the time. Hence a few of them (C.Lee, Willie, Crede) can expect to be playing somewhere else next year.
C. Lee, Willie and Crede is who you want to trade to restock your farm system? Is that a joke. Rebuilding the farm via trades requires you to trade pricey veterans for prospects. Dump salary and proven players for the exact opposite. C lee is the closest thing to a veteran but not quite, and he doens't make that much. You will get absoutly nothing for crede and harris, they are like minor leaguers already. The people on this roster that could be traded for prospects would be frank, maggs, konerko, garcia, everett and such. And none of those guys are going to be traded becuase thats all we got.

WinTwins
08-06-2004, 10:28 AM
I think the Sox need to tear down and rebuild. As currently constructed, they aren't quite good enough to win the division, and even farther away from being a WS contender. Thomas is approaching the twilight, and Maggs could be gone this winter. There is a core of good players to build around, like Konerko, Lee, Garcia, Marte, Shingo, Buehle, etc., but those are also the best players to turn into young, cheap talent. They also have too much roster-filler. As good as Rowand has been this year, I don't think I'd trust him long-term until he puts together more than a couple good months.

Both Minnesota and Cleveland took their lumps during rebuilding. It's paid off big for the Twins, and the Indians are about to turn the corner too. Unless Reinsdorf shocks everyone this winter and acquires some BIG talent, take your lumps now and build for the long haul.

You hardcore Sox fans might hate the idea, but think of your children and grandchildren!!

PorkChopExpress
08-06-2004, 10:33 AM
C. Lee, Willie and Crede is who you want to trade to restock your farm system? Is that a joke. Rebuilding the farm via trades requires you to trade pricey veterans for prospects. Dump salary and proven players for the exact opposite. C lee is the closest thing to a veteran but not quite, and he doens't make that much. You will get absoutly nothing for crede and harris, they are like minor leaguers already. The people on this roster that could be traded for prospects would be frank, maggs, konerko, garcia, everett and such. And none of those guys are going to be traded becuase thats all we got.
You're right. The problem is, when I was saying it, I did not want to admit that we have to get rid of those guys. I wanted to get rid of the guys with the bad attitudes, which is what I was getting at. You can get something decent for Lee, and try and get lucky with some prospects for Crede and Willie.
The truth is, I think we would hold on to Frank, if we can, and that's it. Maybe Everett because he has some special relationship with KW. Garcia isn't going anywhere. We will keep good pitchers. We will have a core of Buehrle, Garcia and Contreras, which I do not mind. We need to completely revamp the infield. It's just a depressing time right now.

soxnut
08-06-2004, 10:34 AM
C. Lee, Willie and Crede is who you want to trade to restock your farm system? Is that a joke. Rebuilding the farm via trades requires you to trade pricey veterans for prospects. Dump salary and proven players for the exact opposite. C lee is the closest thing to a veteran but not quite, and he doens't make that much. You will get absoutly nothing for crede and harris, they are like minor leaguers already. The people on this roster that could be traded for prospects would be frank, maggs, konerko, garcia, everett and such. And none of those guys are going to be traded becuase thats all we got.
I think you have got to try and trade Lee and Konerko. They can put up some good numbers, but in reality, they don't mix well with what we've got. The Sox can still get something for these guys, and in the offseason, they should work on signing Mags and FA or two that will mix with what this team needs(ie: line drive hitters with some speed)

soxnut
08-06-2004, 10:39 AM
I think the Sox need to tear down and rebuild. As currently constructed, they aren't quite good enough to win the division, and even farther away from being a WS contender. Thomas is approaching the twilight, and Maggs could be gone this winter. There is a core of good players to build around, like Konerko, Lee, Garcia, Marte, Shingo, Buehle, etc., but those are also the best players to turn into young, cheap talent. They also have too much roster-filler. As good as Rowand has been this year, I don't think I'd trust him long-term until he puts together more than a couple good months.

Both Minnesota and Cleveland took their lumps during rebuilding. It's paid off big for the Twins, and the Indians are about to turn the corner too. Unless Reinsdorf shocks everyone this winter and acquires some BIG talent, take your lumps now and build for the long haul.

You hardcore Sox fans might hate the idea, but think of your children and grandchildren!!

No more rebuilding for me. I've been throught it twice--late 80's and late 90's and it basically did nothing for us, so forget about it. We're in a large market, there's no excuse for rebuilding. Get rid of Konerko and Lee and get something good for them, and sign a couple of free agents to fill the holes. The Sox pitching is pretty solid and I would hate to have to throw that away in an effort of "rebuilding".

JDP
08-06-2004, 10:41 AM
No more rebuilding for me. I've been throught it twice--late 80's and late 90's and it basically did nothing for us, so forget about it.
That's because the "rebuilding" wasn't done with all the property entities in place

jackbrohamer
08-06-2004, 10:43 AM
I don't buy the Reinsdorf model that it's either (a) win now or (b) blow up the team and build for the future. Good organizations (Giants, Yankees, Red Sox, Oakland) manage to do both at the same time.

Reinsdorf deliberately goes in the tank periodically to suck money out of the team, and claims he's "rebuilding" (the Sox in '87-'89; late '97'99; Bulls from '98 to now)

gosox41
08-06-2004, 10:57 AM
I think you have got to try and trade Lee and Konerko. They can put up some good numbers, but in reality, they don't mix well with what we've got. The Sox can still get something for these guys, and in the offseason, they should work on signing Mags and FA or two that will mix with what this team needs(ie: line drive hitters with some speed)
I like the idea of trading PK and I'm open to trading Lee. But for completely different reasons. PK is slow and one dimensional . Hopefully he could be moved soon after the rebound he has had and thefact taht there is one year on his contract. I like Lee but am willing to move him for the right price.

But in comparison to the rest of the team, these guys aren't hurting the 2004 Sox. Here is the OPS of the guys the Sox are relying on everyday:

Lee- .863
PK- .912
Rowand- .930 (quite surprisingly)
Uribe-.766
Crede-705 (with a .292 OBP)
Valentin-.815 (with a .298 OBP)
Harris-.667
Perez-.643- (300 OBP)
Gload-.689
Alomar-.595 (295 OBP)
Burke-.777
Borchard-.493 (.255 OBP)
Davis-.784 (.297 OBP)
Everett-.687

So on any given day, the Sox are playing 5 guys with OBP's at around .300 or below (Valentin, Crede, Perez/Borhcard, Alomar/Davis, and Everett.) Granted it's hard to judge Borchard, Davis, Everett and Burke onl ltd. at bats but one is a lot of hype, one has been a flop, one is injured, and one has been a career minor leaguer. The only one with good potential is Borchard and Ozzie is platooning him.

It's kind of hard to win when half your line up can't get on base. Add to that Willie Harris who is maddenly inconsistent though he has a .355 OBP so it's hard to complain that he's not doing his job somewhat well.

The only guys doing anything are PK, Lee, and Rowand.

The Sox aren't winning because of lack of depth. There's such a huge drop off from Frank and Magglio to their replacements. KW has not done a good job of solving any of the holes the Sox have had since he first started being GM of the team.

So unless the above guys figure out away to get on base alot more, I would say the Sox are screwed the rest of the year. I will also say that the 2004 Sox problems don't rest on PK and Lee. Though I can see trading them as the Sox have nothing coming up anytime soon on the farm system and it's pointless to go into next season with all these bench players being starters.


Bob

hawkeyesrule
08-06-2004, 11:37 AM
Here's my take: this team has no passion. Show some emotion on the field. Smile when something good happens! Pump your fist! They are out on the field looking completely listless.

I don't think now is the time to start a full "rebuilding". Minny is going to lose a LOT of players after this year. No one else in our division is there yet. Next year it should be a lock if we keep most of our players. The one guy I would like to trade is C Lee, as long as we keep Maggs. I think we can get something very good for Lee from a team that needs some hitting. Our outfield prospects appear to be solid, but we don't have much else. No way I trade PK. He is a leader and fan-favorite. Plus, we don't have any 1B talent in the pipeline.

Here's my lineup:

Willie 2b
?? SS
Frank DH
Maggs RF
PK 1b
Rowand LF or CF
Anderson? LF or CF
Crede (provided he puts some work in to fix his swing) 3b
Davis/Burke/Alomar C

I would take Valentin back at a reduced price and have him bat 6th instead of Rowand, but there are a lot of free agent SS this off season. Renteria or Cabrera would be good fits for the 2 hole.

Flight #24
08-06-2004, 11:46 AM
I
The Sox aren't winning because of lack of depth. There's such a huge drop off from Frank and Magglio to their replacements. KW has not done a good job of solving any of the holes the Sox have had since he first started being GM of the team.

So unless the above guys figure out away to get on base alot more, I would say the Sox are screwed the rest of the year. I will also say that the 2004 Sox problems don't rest on PK and Lee. Though I can see trading them as the Sox have nothing coming up anytime soon on the farm system and it's pointless to go into next season with all these bench players being starters.


Bob
Holes from 2001:

1) Starting pitching (there was none). now: Garcia-Buehrle-Contreras-Garland. I'd say it's filled nicely.

2) CF (Singleton, IIRC) - Rowand with Anderson on the way in 1-2 years. Again, filled nicely.

3) C - Not filled, but Burke & Davis look to be serviceable.

4) 2B/SS - not filled

5) Bullpen - Marte & Shingo are pretty good. Politte's been solid. I'd say 1/2 to 2/3ds filled.

Dunno - looks to me like there's really only 1 or 2 holes that haven't been filled. And those holes look a lot better when they're complementary parts (i.e. with Frank & maggs back) than when they're core players who's bats are relied on.

beck72
08-06-2004, 11:59 AM
The Sox should re-tool rather than either.

For instance the sox should trade Lee and Konerko in the offseason. And not resign Maggs or Jose. If the sox could land a FA 3b like Corey Koskie, Crede could be traded. With the trades, the Sox could get everyday players or top prospects [pitching, 1B, C]. It wouldn't be rebuilding, as the Sox would be replacing talent with talent, and have the pitching to contend for 1st place.

The free agent route, a SS like Renteria should be the top priority. STL can't resign him with their two top SP and money spent on guys like Rolen, Pujols and Edmonds. Ozzie may have some influence and sway. With guys like Nomar and Beltran on the market, and pitchers like Pedro available a guy like Renteria might slip through the cracks, and would stabilize one of the most important positions. Orlando Cabrera is anohter option as well.

For 1B, LF and Rf, they could sign one year FA's. Like Frank Catalanotto, or the trade route. Corner OF and 1b were plentiful last FA market and should be again.

The Sox will be building on SP and the bullpen; solid defense, and contact, average hitters rather than strictly power guys. The core of 2000 must be broken up. Adding pieces to that core hasn't worked.

Rush20
08-06-2004, 12:09 PM
I don't think we will have a full rebuild/retool project until after the 2005 season when Frank Thomas' contract expires. I doubt JR will pick up his option for 2006 and/or resign him to a new deal. There is just too much bad blood at this point plus Frank's recent history of injuries.

I also believe Maggs will be gone going into next year and that we have gotten the best years out of Carlos Lee and Jose Valentin. Joe Crede is proving "NOT" to be the next Robin Ventura and I'm still not convinced Willie Harris will be able to hit/reach base consistently in the major leagues. Uribe has fallen back to earth and is proving to be a consistent 5th man in the infield. (Think Tony G.).

Believe it or not, Aaron Rowand has proven to be my only "keeper" going into next year. He's not near the top of CFs in the league, however I think he would be great in LF or RF if we could pick up a true CF.

Paulie is having a good year statistically, however half my mens softball team could beat him in a foot race and he hits into way too many double plays. If his trade value is high during the off-season, move him.

I guess, like many on this board, I'm frustrated with the "chemistry" of this team. I like the approach Ozzie brings to the game, however it appears some of these players just don't "want it" enough.

That's how I view it from my seat 20-25 times per year....:(:

soxnut
08-06-2004, 12:13 PM
The Sox should re-tool rather than either.

For instance the sox should trade Lee and Konerko in the offseason. And not resign Maggs or Jose. If the sox could land a FA 3b like Corey Koskie, Crede could be traded. With the trades, the Sox could get everyday players or top prospects [pitching, 1B, C]. It wouldn't be rebuilding, as the Sox would be replacing talent with talent, and have the pitching to contend for 1st place.

The free agent route, a SS like Renteria should be the top priority. STL can't resign him with their two top SP and money spent on guys like Rolen, Pujols and Edmonds. Ozzie may have some influence and sway. With guys like Nomar and Beltran on the market, and pitchers like Pedro available a guy like Renteria might slip through the cracks, and would stabilize one of the most important positions. Orlando Cabrera is anohter option as well.

For 1B, LF and Rf, they could sign one year FA's. Like Frank Catalanotto, or the trade route. Corner OF and 1b were plentiful last FA market and should be again.

The Sox will be building on SP and the bullpen; solid defense, and contact, average hitters rather than strictly power guys. The core of 2000 must be broken up. Adding pieces to that core hasn't worked.
GREAT IDEAS EXCELLENT POST!!!!!!!!:dtroll: :D:

Win1ForMe
08-06-2004, 12:14 PM
I like the idea of trading PK and I'm open to trading Lee. But for completely different reasons. PK is slow and one dimensional . Hopefully he could be moved soon after the rebound he has had and thefact taht there is one year on his contract. I like Lee but am willing to move him for the right price.

But in comparison to the rest of the team, these guys aren't hurting the 2004 Sox. Here is the OPS of the guys the Sox are relying on everyday:

Lee- .863
PK- .912
Rowand- .930 (quite surprisingly)
Uribe-.766
Crede-705 (with a .292 OBP)
Valentin-.815 (with a .298 OBP)
Harris-.667
Perez-.643- (300 OBP)
Gload-.689
Alomar-.595 (295 OBP)
Burke-.777
Borchard-.493 (.255 OBP)
Davis-.784 (.297 OBP)
Everett-.687
I kind of agree with the point you make. We don't really have any middle of the road players, for every good-great player (Frank/Maggs/Kong/Lee/Rowand) we have in the lineup, we also have some that could very well be described as the worst at their respective positions (Valentin, Harris/Uribe, Crede, Perez/Gload, Alomar/Burke/Davis, Borchard). This is especially true against LHP where our middle infielders are useless (none of them hit above .200 :o: :o: ) and same with Perez/Gload. One could also make a similar argument about the pitching staff and the sharp drop-off from Garcia/Buehrle to Garland/Schoeneweis.

I'm sure when Williams got Uribe in the off-season, he saw him being able to replace either Harris or Valentin in the lineup against lefties, but Uribe has only hit them at a .195 clip, after doing so with a .301 avg. last year. Of course he also picked up Alomar, who's in the same boat as the other three.

In the off-season, seems like the best course of action would be to trade Lee or Konerko and/or Garland for a couple decent, cheap players at need positions (if for example one of the west coast teams signs Nomar in the off-season, I would be all over Eckstein or Izturis). The money saved could then go to signing players like Catalanotto who would come cheaper yet still produce relatively well.

BoKnowsSox
08-06-2004, 12:22 PM
If they can't put it together this year, it's time for a firesale. The only guys on this team worth keeping are Konerko, Thomas, Ordonez, Rowand, Buerhle, Contreras, Shingo and Freddy Garcia. Trade Carlos Lee for prospects. Konerko may also have to go. We may have to wave goodbye to Maggs, but that would be a shame, his consistency on both offense and defense are hard to come by. Crede, Valentin, Harris, Judy Garland, Scott Schomethefences, Mike Jackson, Cliff Pollite, and Juan Uribe better be in new zip codes next year. Joe Borchard should be given a shot to prove himself next year....during spring training, and if he continues to waste at-bats, get rid of him too.

It may be time to start another "Kids can play" campaign. But where are the kids? Playing across the Major Leagues because Ken Williams has bet the farm on doing everything he can to make these sad sacks win. No excuse here but the players themselves.

ndgt10
08-06-2004, 12:27 PM
I don't think it is wise to rebuild when we have a top 3 rotation of Garcia, Buerhle, and Contreras locked up for a few more years...If we rebuild now, by the time we are ready to compete again, those guys will most likely be gone.

MRKARNO
08-06-2004, 01:00 PM
The Sox should re-tool rather than either.

For instance the sox should trade Lee and Konerko in the offseason. And not resign Maggs or Jose. If the sox could land a FA 3b like Corey Koskie, Crede could be traded. With the trades, the Sox could get everyday players or top prospects [pitching, 1B, C]. It wouldn't be rebuilding, as the Sox would be replacing talent with talent, and have the pitching to contend for 1st place.

The free agent route, a SS like Renteria should be the top priority. STL can't resign him with their two top SP and money spent on guys like Rolen, Pujols and Edmonds. Ozzie may have some influence and sway. With guys like Nomar and Beltran on the market, and pitchers like Pedro available a guy like Renteria might slip through the cracks, and would stabilize one of the most important positions. Orlando Cabrera is anohter option as well.

For 1B, LF and Rf, they could sign one year FA's. Like Frank Catalanotto, or the trade route. Corner OF and 1b were plentiful last FA market and should be again.

The Sox will be building on SP and the bullpen; solid defense, and contact, average hitters rather than strictly power guys. The core of 2000 must be broken up. Adding pieces to that core hasn't worked.
I was about to say something along these lines, but you beat me to it.:D:

There is waay too much talent on this team that is performing well to really have a need to go through a whole rebuilding process. Contreras, Garcia and Buehrle need to stay. Garland....if we could get anything for him at this point then I say trade him because this kid needs a change of scenery. Maybe we can pull off a Loaiza-type deal with him.

Carlos Lee probably needs to go too and if we could get a good starting pitcher in return, then that would be great. Atlanta's losing JD Drew, so maybe they would trade some pitching for hitting. I think that Konerko should stay because his bat is important.

At shortstop I think we should acquire a decent average, excellent defense, good speed type of guy that we could put at the top of the lineup (Christian Guzman is too much of a mental midget, so I wouldn't want him). It doesnt have to be Renteria, just someone decent. I like Jose, but his Low OBP high SLG% hitting style doesn't help us enough on a consistant basis.

At second base I think we should keep Roberto Alomar if he keeps it up, or if he doesnt then keep the status quo and stick with Harris and Uribe. Uribe also could play shortstop.

It might be a good idea to dump Crede, but only if we could get a Corie Koskie-type to play third. Crede has Rolen-potential in my opinion, but I just dont think he's patient enough to reach that level. Third base is turning into a position where most teams are getting good offense and Crede is one of the worst regular 3Bs offensively.

beck72
08-06-2004, 02:30 PM
I was about to say something along these lines, but you beat me to it.:D:

There is waay too much talent on this team that is performing well to really have a need to go through a whole rebuilding process. Contreras, Garcia and Buehrle need to stay. Garland....if we could get anything for him at this point then I say trade him because this kid needs a change of scenery. Maybe we can pull off a Loaiza-type deal with him.

Carlos Lee probably needs to go too and if we could get a good starting pitcher in return, then that would be great. Atlanta's losing JD Drew, so maybe they would trade some pitching for hitting. I think that Konerko should stay because his bat is important.

At shortstop I think we should acquire a decent average, excellent defense, good speed type of guy that we could put at the top of the lineup (Christian Guzman is too much of a mental midget, so I wouldn't want him). It doesnt have to be Renteria, just someone decent. I like Jose, but his Low OBP high SLG% hitting style doesn't help us enough on a consistant basis.

At second base I think we should keep Roberto Alomar if he keeps it up, or if he doesnt then keep the status quo and stick with Harris and Uribe. Uribe also could play shortstop.

It might be a good idea to dump Crede, but only if we could get a Corie Koskie-type to play third. Crede has Rolen-potential in my opinion, but I just dont think he's patient enough to reach that level. Third base is turning into a position where most teams are getting good offense and Crede is one of the worst regular 3Bs offensively.Garland could get a decent return. Esp if a team is banking on his "potential". Guys like Tomo Ohka or Tony Armas Jr will be FA's if i'm not mistaken and could be upgrades over Jon. Diaz should be the 5th SP, though the SOx need to acquire more pitchers almost ready for the bigs via the trade route. Sea could be a partner for Carlos and maybe they'll part with some young pitching.

Harris should be solid. While he may not be ready ofr leadoff duty, he's doing the little things and playing solid d. Uribe should be a utlity player. If the Sox could get a stud SS then he could be used as trade bait. [His batting eye and approach to hitting don't fit well with the "new" Sox to be a fulltime SS]

Shingo, Marte and Politte form a decent trio, though more arms for the pen would be nice.

FightingBillini
08-06-2004, 03:09 PM
I think we should have a complete overhaul of the roster, but not go into a rebuilding mode. We should trade Paulie, maybe Carlos, and possible Harris. We should get whatever prosepects, money, and or relief pitching we can for them. If we do that, and shock the world by spending $80 next season, we could be great. We have the starting pitching to win in the playoffs for several years to come. We cant break this up. If we sign free agents in the offseason, we wont need to trade off so many prospects at the deadline. That will singlehandedly rebuild our farm system.