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View Full Version : Kenny Lofton or Jose Cruz, Jr?


Gimm
08-06-2004, 03:02 AM
Since I doubt Sox would want to spend so much on Larry Walker who might not even want to come here (no-trade clause, same as Burnitz), the above two seem like more realistic, cheaper and potentially valuable options.

Both are fast and have a pretty high OBP -- and horrible OBP is the reason why our offense died in July. Cruz also plays GG defense in RF. Both are making 2.5 Mill this year and are very expendable as far as their respective ballclubs go.

Timo Perez would be one hell of a pinch-hitter in situations where there are RISP - he is hitting .420 thanks to his ability to cut down on his swing in big situations and experience. However, he simply doesn't cut it as a starting RF, nor as a top-of-the-order hitter. Not even close.

Kenny Lofton has been lethal with the Giants and Cubs down the stretch. Cruz is much younger and might want to try and earn a big contract.

Thoughts?

FightingBillini
08-06-2004, 03:10 AM
Gimm, I have been reading your posts today, and you are a good man. I like what you have to say.

I like this move. Anything to spark the offense.

Mohoney
08-06-2004, 03:12 AM
Lofton, HELL NO!

Cruz Jr., definitely.

Gimm
08-06-2004, 03:20 AM
I was thinking along the lines of:


vs RHP

Lofton CF
Alomar 3B
Lee LF
Everett DH
Konerko 1B
Valentin SS
Rowand RF
Davis C
Harris 2B

vs LHP

Rowand RF
Lofton CF
Lee LF
Konerko 1B
Everett DH
Crede 3B
Uribe 2B
Valentin SS
Burke C

Gimm
08-06-2004, 03:22 AM
Lofton, HELL NO!

???

Mohoney
08-06-2004, 03:25 AM
???

Rowand has earned that CF job. To have to share it with Lofton, who can't play defense anymore, isn't fair. It sends a bad message.

When you give a guy like Garland all kinds of leeway, and then turn around and take a job away from a guy that actually produces, it can't bode well with the players.

Gimm
08-06-2004, 03:39 AM
Rowand has earned that CF job. To have to share it with Lofton, who can't play defense anymore, isn't fair.
What does 'fair' have to do with salvaging one of the more pivotal season in the Sox history? Cubs are trying to win the World Series and we're supposed to sit and watch the season die?!

And Rowand stays in the line-up, so what's the problem? Lofton could handle USCF CF adequately. Of course, Rowand is the better defensive player of the two, but since Lofton doesn't have the arm for RF, you're just gonna have to live with his D in center.

Don't get me wrong, I'll take Cruz, too while we're at.:smile:

WhiteSoxFan84
08-06-2004, 04:08 AM
You guys think either Lofton or Cruz would make it through the waiver wires all the way to the White Sox?

Don't forget the NL East has teams under .500 still with a great chance to make the playoffs, those teams would have chances at these 2 before the Sox and would pick them up.

ChiSoxBobette
08-06-2004, 09:41 AM
What does 'fair' have to do with salvaging one of the more pivotal season in the Sox history? Cubs are trying to win the World Series and we're supposed to sit and watch the season die?!

And Rowand stays in the line-up, so what's the problem? Lofton could handle USCF CF adequately. Of course, Rowand is the better defensive player of the two, but since Lofton doesn't have the arm for RF, you're just gonna have to live with his D in center.

Don't get me wrong, I'll take Cruz, too while we're at.:smile:
So where do you bat Lofton because if you say leadoff , why, Rowand has been a pretty good leadoff guy since Ozzie put him there so why would you move Aaron down to accomadate someone like Lofton. Who I don't believe would be to happy to go from the yankmees , probably the AL team that will go to the WS, to us. He'd just come here and pout. And then we'd still end up moving Aaron back into the leadoff spot and CF.

joeynach
08-06-2004, 10:10 AM
So where do you bat Lofton because if you say leadoff , why, Rowand has been a pretty good leadoff guy since Ozzie put him there so why would you move Aaron down to accomadate someone like Lofton. Who I don't believe would be to happy to go from the yankmees , probably the AL team that will go to the WS, to us. He'd just come here and pout. And then we'd still end up moving Aaron back into the leadoff spot and CF.
Screw lofton give me Carl Crawford!

Jjav829
08-06-2004, 10:34 AM
Screw lofton give me Carl Crawford!
Well Carl Crawford isn't getting through waivers.

I'd take Jose Cruz Jr., but it would have to be cheaply. He's not exactly a guy who will turn this team around so I wouldn't give up any big prospects.

Win1ForMe
08-06-2004, 10:42 AM
You guys think either Lofton or Cruz would make it through the waiver wires all the way to the White Sox?

Don't forget the NL East has teams under .500 still with a great chance to make the playoffs, those teams would have chances at these 2 before the Sox and would pick them up.
He passes through AL waivers first so the Sox would have a chance to claim him before any NL team.

HomerCoach
08-06-2004, 10:47 AM
We need another JOSE, 1 out of the 3 has to be a good. Lofton is an Indian, always will be, forget him.

JDP
08-06-2004, 10:49 AM
Anytime we're breaking down who is going to be in vs LH and who is going to be in vs RH ... you know we're not that good.

Gimm
08-06-2004, 10:55 AM
You guys think either Lofton or Cruz would make it through the waiver wires all the way to the White Sox?

Don't forget the NL East has teams under .500 still with a great chance to make the playoffs, those teams would have chances at these 2 before the Sox and would pick them up.
NL teams don't matter.

Who could potentially block the Sox in the AL?

Gimm
08-06-2004, 10:58 AM
I was thinking along the lines of:


vs RHP

Lofton CF
Alomar 3B
Lee LF
Everett DH
Konerko 1B
Valentin SS
Rowand RF
Davis C
Harris 2B

vs LHP

Rowand RF
Lofton CF
Lee LF
Konerko 1B
Everett DH
Crede 3B
Uribe 2B
Valentin SS
Burke C
If Sox could get both for cheap (why not?) then against LHP, Lofton would sit and Cruz would start in RF, moving Rowand back to CF - Cruz has uch better splits against lefties in the last 2 years.

Baby Fisk
08-06-2004, 11:04 AM
Too bad, Gimm, you've blown your complimentary drinkie...

...but Jose Cruz JR, I like! :cool:

Gimm
08-06-2004, 11:09 AM
Anytime we're breaking down who is going to be in vs LH and who is going to be in vs RH ... you know we're not that good.What kind of logic is that? No, we're not the 2003 Red Sox offensively, but there's still potential with this team if KW could close up a couple of holes and balance out the line-up. Before you know it, you'll start winning many close games that you were losing during the July of the Corpseball - that's how you build winning streaks and put real pressure on the Twins down the stretch.

You have to deal with reality. Harris is horrid against LHP, but his high OBP against righties could be quite valuable in the #9-1 spots. Rowand is amazing against LHP, but mediocre against RHP because of the hole in his swing. Lofton, Robbie are still very effective against RHP, but weak against southpaws. Ditto Valentin. Cruz, Jr on the other hand, has been a lefty-killer with the Giants and the D-Rays. Konerko and Lee can mash LHP as well. We really need Everett to step up from the right side especially.

Right now, the Sox would be on hook for about 1.5 Mill if they get Cruz AND Lofton. I am assuming they're not gonna cost much in terms of prospects. Why not make the deal and, if everything goes right, become a team to be reckoned with even while 5 games behind Minnesota in the loss column?

I mean, it's not as if Delgado, Beltran, Walker and Randy Johnson are waiting on the second line....

Gimm
08-06-2004, 11:50 AM
Too bad, Gimm, you've blown your complimentary drinkie...

...but Jose Cruz JR, I like! :cool:2004

RHP

9. Harris - 385 OBP (lots of hard-hit outs lately)
1. Lofton - 360 OBP, 460 Slug (in a pitcher's park)
2. Robbie - 390 OBP, 510 Slug (can bunt, too)

LHP

9. Burke - 390 OBP, 460 Slug
1. Rowand - 440 OBP, 740 Slug (!!!)
2. Cruz - 430 OBP, 510 Slug

During our 9-of-11 windfall, the team simply couldn't get on base, especially in the early innings, putting too much pressure on the likes of Garland and Shoeneweiss, and making a mediocre opposing pitcher feel good about himself. You fix that, evreything would change.

Can you imagine how much better the offense would be, especially if Everett and Valentin start swinging the power bat again and provide proper protection to deadly fastball hitters Lee and Konerko in 3-4 spots? You wouldn't recognize this offense - that's how good it could be even without Maggs.

DickAllen72
08-06-2004, 05:32 PM
I'd love to see Lofton back with the Sox--that is, IF he wants to play for the Sox and give it his all like he did for the sCrubs. I've been told by people on this board and another forum time and time again that Lofton doesn't like the Sox and that KW doesn't like Lofton. But I've also been told that Loaiza was untradeable and they'd never bring Robbie back......

Jose Cruz Jr. would also be a good pickup and would probably have more of a chance of staying around for a couple more seasons. I'd like both moves, but acquiring Lofton would excite me more, because I've seen him carry teams.

OEO Magglio
08-06-2004, 05:32 PM
Lofton, HELL NO!

Cruz Jr., definitely.My thinking exactly.

Palehose13
08-06-2004, 05:59 PM
Lofton, HELL NO!

Cruz Jr., definitely.triple-o!

Gimm
08-06-2004, 06:34 PM
I'd love to see Lofton back with the Sox--that is, IF he wants to play for the Sox and give it his all like he did for the sCrubs. I've been told by people on this board and another forum time and time again that Lofton doesn't like the Sox and that KW doesn't like Lofton. But I've also been told that Loaiza was untradeable and they'd never bring Robbie back......

Jose Cruz Jr. would also be a good pickup and would probably have more of a chance of staying around for a couple more seasons. I'd like both moves, but acquiring Lofton would excite me more, because I've seen him carry teams.Are you saying Kenny Lo-Lo would tank if he were to end up here down the stretch?

I wouldn't mind having both Cruz and Lofton if a big fish like Delgado can't be landed. I posted the relevant splits a few posts upthread.

DickAllen72
08-06-2004, 07:00 PM
Are you saying Kenny Lo-Lo would tank if he were to end up here down the stretch?


I wouldn't think so. I've been lobbying for Lofton's return for a long time now. My first post on WSI in fact was about bringing back Lofton and Everett. But many people both on this forum and another have told me that Lofton didn't like playing for the Sox, he quit on the team (which I don't believe--I thought he got hurt when he went into his 2002 slump), and KW has no use for him.

I think if Lofton came back and played like he did for the sCrubs last year, we'd be in the playoffs this year.

DickAllen72
08-07-2004, 12:16 AM
After tonight's heartbreaking loss, we're now tied with the Indians for 2nd (or 3rd) place. The good news is we didn't lose any ground to the Twins. So we're still in it, but time is running short.

KW, just do it. Bring back Kenny Lofton now!!!

The man can hit and the man can run! He can still play good defense in CF. Who cares what he does in the clubhouse at this point??? He can ignite the offense on the field. Lofton & Robbie know how to play winning baseball.

Gimm
08-07-2004, 01:06 AM
After tonight's heartbreaking loss, we're now tied with the Indians for 2nd (or 3rd) place. The good news is we didn't lose any ground to the Twins. So we're still in it, but time is running short.

KW, just do it. Bring back Kenny Lofton now!!!

The man can hit and the man can run! He can still play good defense in CF. Who cares what he does in the clubhouse at this point??? He can ignite the offense on the field. Lofton & Robbie know how to play winning baseball.
Yeah, OBP and experience (or lack thereof) is a MAJOR problem on this team right now.

In 2002, Lofton had a 385 OBP in the final 6 weeks of the season.
In 2003, Lofton had a 400 OBP in the final 6 weeks of the season.

And his Slugging was/is good for a lead-off hitter as well - not just a punch and judy hitter.

What would it take to get him? I know ideally he wouldn't want to come here, but if he were guaranteed a starting job, why not?

DickAllen72
08-07-2004, 01:14 AM
Yeah, OBP and experience (or lack thereof) is a MAJOR problem on this team right now.

In 2002, Lofton had a 385 OBP in the final 6 weeks of the season.
In 2003, Lofton had a 400 OBP in the final 6 weeks of the season.

And his Slugging was/is good for a lead-off hitter as well - not just a punch and judy hitter.

What would it take to get him? I know ideally he wouldn't want to come here, but if he were guaranteed a starting job, why not?

Too bad Schoeneweis is on the DL now. I know the Yankees wanted him last week and I'm sure we could have gotten Lofton for him. I wonder if he would clear waivers now that he's on the DL (can you waive a guy on the DL anyway?) and the Yankees would be willing to take a chance on him.

I have a feeling the Sox are going to let Lofton clear waivers and if the Yankees release him, they'll pick him up for the minimum. Trouble is, that will take ten days after he actually clears waivers, then other teams may make him offers as well. By that time it may be too late anyway. I hope KW can get him soon---like tomorrow.

Gimm
08-07-2004, 01:24 AM
Too bad Schoeneweis is on the DL now. I know the Yankees wanted him last week and I'm sure we could have gotten Lofton for him. I wonder if he would clear waivers now that he's on the DL (can you waive a guy on the DL anyway?) and the Yankees would be willing to take a chance on him.

I have a feeling the Sox are going to let Lofton clear waivers and if the Yankees release him, they'll pick him up for the minimum. Trouble is, that will take ten days after he actually clears waivers, then other teams may make him offers as well. By that time it may be too late anyway. I hope KW can get him soon---like tomorrow.Yeah, don't it seem like the Sox always have the worst timing/luck with these things - like waiting until a touted prospect bombs in his ML debut and loses half his value, or the injury to a trade bait like Wunsch or Shoeneweiss ruins the best-laid plans to actually get something decent for them? LMAO.

Among AL teams with a worse record than the Sox, who would actually want to risk taking Lofton on, though? Ah, the great thing about being only 2 games over .500.....

DickAllen72
08-07-2004, 01:38 AM
Yeah, don't it seem like the Sox always have the worst timing/luck with these things - like waiting until a touted prospect bombs in his ML debut and loses half his value, or the injury to a trade bait like Wunsch or Shoeneweiss ruins the best-laid plans to actually get something decent for them? LMAO.

Among AL teams with a worse record than the Sox, who would actually want to risk taking Lofton on, though? Ah, the great thing about being only 2 games over .500.....

Now that you mention it, didn't Wunsch just come off the DL about a week ago? I wonder ho he's doing? Maybe the Yankees would want him. I know they wanted Schoeneweis for the bullpen but then hesitated because of his comments with the Sox about not wanting to go to the BP. Also, I heard the Sox hesitated because they believed trading both Loaiza and Schoeneweis would look to their fans like they were giving up.

Anyway, if they wanted a LH in the BP, maybe they'll take Wunsch. I don't know if KW would want Lofton for more than this season and I think he's signed for one or two more years. So he might try to wait until he's released, then he only has to pay him whatever he'll take for the rest of the season. But as I said, waiting for that may take too long.

Gimm
08-07-2004, 01:49 AM
Now that you mention it, didn't Wunsch just come off the DL about a week ago? I wonder ho he's doing? Maybe the Yankees would want him. I know they wanted Schoeneweis for the bullpen but then hesitated because of his comments with the Sox about not wanting to go to the BP. Also, I heard the Sox hesitated because they believed trading both Loaiza and Schoeneweis would look to their fans like they were giving up.

Anyway, if they wanted a LH in the BP, maybe they'll take Wunsch. I don't know if KW would want Lofton for more than this season and I think he's signed for one or two more years. So he might try to wait until he's released, then he only has to pay him whatever he'll take for the rest of the season. But as I said, waiting for that may take too long.You know, I wouldn't mind having a Wunsch or a Shoeneweis in OUR pen cuz Neal Cotts and Politte cannot get lefties out to save their lives and are prone to choking at the wrong time.

I hope the Sox don't miss out on a good lead-off hitter who can help the team make an improbable playoff run because they would rather not spend those extra few 100K and wait until he is released. Then again, knowing JR/KW, that's exactly what's going to happen. LOL.

DickAllen72
08-07-2004, 01:52 AM
You know, I wouldn't mind having a Wunsch or a Shoeneweis in OUR pen cuz Neal Cotts and Politte cannot get lefties out to save their lives and are prone to choking at the wrong time.

I hope the Sox don't miss out on a good lead-off hitter who can help the team make an improbable playoff run because they would rather not spend those extra few 100K and wait until he is released. Then again, knowing JR/KW, that's exactly what's going to happen. LOL.

Good point.

Gimm
08-08-2004, 04:28 PM
Minor update: Kenny Lofton got on base 3 more times today.