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sld7c
08-05-2004, 11:24 PM
Okay so I'm close to giving up on the Sox post season prospects too, and I'm a little miffed at Guillen. First thing, a six game defecit is bad yeah, and logically I'd bet against them, but it isn't time to give up all hope. As for Guillen, I'd bet 95% of the people on here saying every nasty thing about him they can think of thought he was some sort of baseball messiah back when the Sox were two games up. I mean seriously some of you people come across like kids who've just found out daddy can't do everything. Most objective sources thought the Sox would finish third or fourth this season (and I'm not saying they won't, and they do then I'll join the chorus of hate here), but it's a little soon to turn on Guillen. The guy's no miracle worker, but if they finish second it's still above most people's expectations. Then there's Williams. Of course you can fault him for mortgaging the future to fix up a house that's about to fall to the ground if that turns out to be the case. But if nothing else he's actually got Jerry Reinsdorf to open the purse, and on some level questionable decisions or no you've got to admire the fact he isn't just sitting on his hands and telling them to work harder. Not being a superstitious lot who blame our teams misfortunes on not admitting livestock to the park we want actual human beings to blame, but you'd be crazy to say the Sox haven't had a run of bad luck.

Viva Magglio
08-05-2004, 11:25 PM
I consider myself a realist. We're done. I am not accusing you of doing this, but I am getting sick and tired of certain overly optismistic Sox fans questioning the loyalty of other White Sox fans who feel we are done. Just because we don't put the rose-colored glasses on when looking at our team does not make us disloyal White Sox fans.

OurBitchinMinny
08-05-2004, 11:28 PM
if we keep this up for another week or two and get 8-10 games out we are done....there is still time, but they have to turn it around starting tomorrow

South Side
08-05-2004, 11:30 PM
I don't blame Ozzie for this at all. I understand that it is a given in baseball that the manager is held responsible for losses and at the same time the successes the team recieves but these are Major League ball players who know how to play the game and are being severly overpaid to do their job. He can't go out there and play for them. He can help them but if they don't go out there and execute then it means nothing... I think Ozzie is doing his job, it's time for the players to do the same.

sld7c
08-05-2004, 11:40 PM
The inconstancy is just what bothers me most of all. You get these people who a few short weeks ago call Guillen a genius, and start talking about how many games it'll take the Sox to win the series. And now a good many of them have thrown in the towell completely, and rip Guillen a new one. Complete overexuberance to unwarranted despair.

TornLabrum
08-06-2004, 12:10 AM
I consider myself a realist. We're done. I am not accusing you of doing this, but I am getting sick and tired of certain overly optismistic Sox fans questioning the loyalty of other White Sox fans who feel we are done. Just because we don't put the rose-colored glasses on when looking at our team does not make us disloyal White Sox fans.
Let's call a spade a spade. Rose colored glasses are for Cubs fans.

cbrownson13
08-06-2004, 12:38 AM
I am also a realist and believe the Sox are out of it when it comes to the central division race. However, I believe they have a shot at the wild card. Even though the teams gunning for the wild card are probably better than the Twins are, I still believe there is a shot. Especially considering we play games against these teams.

I understand people are pissed about the inconsistency of this team on a day to day basis, but what do you expect? Yeah, you can say their lineup is still decent enough to put together some consistency, but do you think Boston's lineup would be consistent without Manny and Ortiz? The Cubs without Sosa and Alou? The Cardinals without Pujols and Rolen? You get the point, and I have brought up this point before. You can't just lose two .330/30/100 guys and expect consistency. Even if the other guys in the lineup can present a threat, they aren't acclimated to being in the roles that they are in.

I don't think the struggles can be blamed on any person. Ozzie can only do so much with what he has, Kenny has tried his best to keep this team in contention, the only real reason this team is having problems is the lack of their two best hitters.

Gimm
08-06-2004, 12:57 AM
Let's call a spade a spade. Yes, lets.

When October 5th rolls around, White Sox will still be playing and Twins won't...provided Kenny makes 2 more moves and Frank is back in September.

Minnesota is due for a big slump, they simply do not have the talent to avoid it.

The question is, could the Sox go on a big, 12 of 15-type winning streak?
D-Rays had one. Dodgers had one. Yankees had one. Rangers had one. Cubs are in the midst of one. Ditto Twins. Braves, too. Even Pirates and Reds did. San Fran, of course. Oakland is getting close to one. Red Sox will too before it's said and done.......What are White Sox, chopped liver?

We already got an OBP guy in Robbie to light some fire under Willie/Crede. Now get Lofton's OBP, speed and experience and put Rowand in the 2-hole where he belongs. Your top of the order is set - that means pitchers can no longer avoid throwing Lee, Konerko, Everett, Valentin strikes with bases no longer empty. Line-up becomes that much more effective - and lo and behold, Sox start winning those dreaded 1-, 2-run games they've been losing in the last 2 weeks. That means a huge swing in the standings, you'll shocked how quickly a team's fortunes can change in baseball if just a couple of upgrades are introduced.

And who knows, with better offense, Garland probably doesn't give up 5 runs in the 5th - when he was getting run support earlier in the year, he was a 3.75 ERA pitcher, he needs that insurence.

If Diaz spots the ball and changes speeds like he did in his 2 starts against the Cubs (Ray Ordonez pitch notwithstanding), he'll be a big improvement over the recent incarnation of Schoeneweis as well.

So no, Sox are not dead. Our (meaning players, KW, JR) backs are against the wall, true, but we aren't out of it by any stretch of imagination.

mcfish
08-06-2004, 01:26 AM
The inconstancy is just what bothers me most of all. You get these people who a few short weeks ago call Guillen a genius, and start talking about how many games it'll take the Sox to win the series. And now a good many of them have thrown in the towell completely, and rip Guillen a new one. Complete overexuberance to unwarranted despair.I really don't remember too many people counting world series wins a few weeks ago. There was more optimism, but there was an awful lot of pessimism too - and people complaining that "We're in first, what are you complaining about?" Well, here we are a few weeks later and everyone now sees what the pessimists were complaining about.

Also, since the end of the first half there has been increasing criticism of Ozzie. Some was more deserved than the rest (constantly bringing Mike Jackson into games with runners on base), but it has been happening for weeks. And most of all, I really don't see a lot of people in the last week complaining that the recent losing is all Ozzie's fault. I think most of the people around here are still happy with the way he is doing his job for the most part. Most of the negativity is directed at the players.

Also, and I'm saying this as nicely as I can, please don't call into question my loyalty to a team just because I think that the current group of players on the team is unable to make a run at either a divisional title or a wild card. That is very rude and a poor assumption on your part. We have been through this for years now and the same thing happens every time, so forgive me for not being all rosy cheeked and happy because we are going to do it again.

StockdaleForVeep
08-06-2004, 01:31 AM
I consider myself a realist. We're done. I am not accusing you of doing this, but I am getting sick and tired of certain overly optismistic Sox fans questioning the loyalty of other White Sox fans who feel we are done. Just because we don't put the rose-colored glasses on when looking at our team does not make us disloyal White Sox fans.Wouldnt a realist see that with 57 games left that there still warrants a fighting chance?

Minnesota is not locked to win the central, i mean god forbid, Johan Santana and Torii hunter could have a severe car accident which decimates their moral and team, and we capitalize. How can ANYONE give up this soon?!

Nellie_Fox
08-06-2004, 02:46 AM
Johan Santana and Torii hunter could have a severe car accident which decimates their moral and team, and we capitalize. How can ANYONE give up this soon?!If that's what you're counting on, then I agree with you, the Sox could get back into it.

I just haven't seen anything in this team since Frank and Maggs went down that leads me to believe they can continue the fight. You just can't expect guys to do what they're not capable of, and there is no one on the roster capable of becoming Frank and Maggs. In fact, when you expect guys to go beyond their capabilities, they often become worse than they were in their original roles. I think you see this happening now.

You are not a bad fan for being a realist. Refusing to be a realist has been the hallmark of Cubs fans for years. I'll continue to follow them, as I have for 50 years now. I've just seen it happen too many times.

ma-gaga
08-06-2004, 03:08 AM
When October 5th rolls around, White Sox will still be playing and Twins won't...provided Kenny makes 2 more moves and Frank is back in September.
...
Minnesota is due for a big slump, they simply do not have the talent to avoid it.
...
What are White Sox, chopped liver?

So Robbie Alomar and Kenny Lofton are going to save the season... Right.

I'm sorry to say this, but the Twins have a lot more talent than you give them. Without Maggs and F.Thomas, the W.Sox ARE the baseball equivalent of chopped liver. Can't score consistant runs. That's what the game is about.

pinwheels3530
08-06-2004, 03:20 AM
Guys, the bottom line is we lost our no.3 & 4 hitters in the line up, this offense is totally different with Maggs and Frank we would be in first place right now if they were healthy. The offense has not stepped up since they been down and two of our starters ( Garland & Shoey ) have been terrible. I will never doubt the value of those two palyers to this team again. I just wish the rest of the team would show the desire and hunger to go out and win this division, right now it really doesn't look so good!

nccwsfan
08-06-2004, 06:38 AM
Wouldnt a realist see that with 57 games left that there still warrants a fighting chance?

Minnesota is not locked to win the central, i mean god forbid, Johan Santana and Torii hunter could have a severe car accident which decimates their moral and team, and we capitalize. How can ANYONE give up this soon?!
That's the beauty of baseball- we have to play out the entire season before saying we're done. It's happened many times before- the 51' Giants, 64' Phillies, 69' Cubs:bandance: :bandance: , the 78' Red Sox, 95' Angels.....I could go on and on, but the bottom line is that there's still plenty of baseball to be played and you can't say we're done just yet.


But if they're going to make a run they'll need to do it and do it quick.

JohnBasedowYoda
08-06-2004, 06:42 AM
I consider myself a realist. We're done. I am not accusing you of doing this, but I am getting sick and tired of certain overly optismistic Sox fans questioning the loyalty of other White Sox fans who feel we are done. Just because we don't put the rose-colored glasses on when looking at our team does not make us disloyal White Sox fans.
what he said

Malgar 12
08-06-2004, 06:56 AM
I consider myself a realist. We're done. I am not accusing you of doing this, but I am getting sick and tired of certain overly optismistic Sox fans questioning the loyalty of other White Sox fans who feel we are done. Just because we don't put the rose-colored glasses on when looking at our team does not make us disloyal White Sox fans.Amen Brother! Just because your favorite is the Ugly Duckling doesn't make him any less your favorite. Of course the Ugly Duckling had a happy ending, and I'm having a hard time seeing how that will happen here!

idseer
08-06-2004, 07:00 AM
Okay so I'm close to ......... stuff & more ........... Not being a superstitious lot who blame our teams misfortunes on not admitting livestock to the park we want actual human beings to blame, but you'd be crazy to say the Sox haven't had a run of bad luck.
does 45 years constitute just ..."a run of bad luck"?

Malgar 12
08-06-2004, 07:00 AM
The inconstancy is just what bothers me most of all. You get these people who a few short weeks ago call Guillen a genius, and start talking about how many games it'll take the Sox to win the series. And now a good many of them have thrown in the towell completely, and rip Guillen a new one. Complete overexuberance to unwarranted despair.
Give me specific evidence of a particular person going to those extremes, and then maybe I would agree. There is nothing wrong with being 'negative' when the team stinks. My philosophy for the Sox, grown out of years of experience is one of 'cautious non-pessimism'. Past performance is no indication of future results, but it should temper you from getting too excited. I hope they play well. I believe they can play well, but I'm not suprised if/when they don't.

Kilroy
08-06-2004, 07:15 AM
Let's call a spade a spade. Rose colored glasses are for Cubs fans.
Agreed. But to not have given up at this point doesn't mean you have rose colored glasses on or put one on par with cub fans. There's still games left to play. I can wait and see.

SOXSINCE'70
08-06-2004, 07:19 AM
if we keep this up for another week or two and get 8-10 games out we are done....there is still time, but they have to turn it around starting tomorrowDon't look now,but the Tribe is breathing fire down the Sox' backs.Sabathia and Lee go against Beuhrle and Garcia tonight and tomorrow night.Split this 4 game series and you might see the sox in THIRD by Tuesday.:angry: :angry: :angry:

TornLabrum
08-06-2004, 09:34 AM
When October 5th rolls around, White Sox will still be playing and Twins won't...provided Kenny makes 2 more moves and Frank is back in September.
So you start by saying that three things, none of which is a certainty have to happen, and that's just for starters!

Minnesota is due for a big slump, they simply do not have the talent to avoid it.
Really? And you base this on what? Their performance in this division from 2002-2004 when the Sox had obviously superior talent?

The question is, could the Sox go on a big, 12 of 15-type winning streak? D-Rays had one. Dodgers had one. Yankees had one. Rangers had one. Cubs are in the midst of one. Ditto Twins. Braves, too. Even Pirates and Reds did. San Fran, of course. Oakland is getting close to one. Red Sox will too before it's said and done.......What are White Sox, chopped liver?
Which of those teams had their #3 and #4 hitters out for a considerable portion of the season? Without Frank and Magglio, the Sox are chopped liver.

We already got an OBP guy in Robbie to light some fire under Willie/Crede. Now get Lofton's OBP, speed and experience and put Rowand in the 2-hole where he belongs. Your top of the order is set - that means pitchers can no longer avoid throwing Lee, Konerko, Everett, Valentin strikes with bases no longer empty. Line-up becomes that much more effective - and lo and behold, Sox start winning those dreaded 1-, 2-run games they've been losing in the last 2 weeks. That means a huge swing in the standings, you'll shocked how quickly a team's fortunes can change in baseball if just a couple of upgrades are introduced.
I don't think Kenny Lofton will be coming back after his run-in with Williams the last time he was here. As for Alomar's OBP, I believe after he came to the Sox last year it was in the .330s. That's nothing to write home about, and now he's a year older and coming off injuries.

So you're basing your hopes on the Sox going out and getting a guy Williams didn't get along with when he was here before, and an aging player having much more than a .330 OBP.

And who knows, with better offense, Garland probably doesn't give up 5 runs in the 5th - when he was getting run support earlier in the year, he was a 3.75 ERA pitcher, he needs that insurence.
If A then probablyB? That really gives me confidence!

Garland's problem is not lack of offense. Garland's problem is the big inning. Garland's problem is that instead of attacking batters, he nibbles. Garland's problem, in short, is Garland.

If Diaz spots the ball and changes speeds like he did in his 2 starts against the Cubs (Ray Ordonez pitch notwithstanding), he'll be a big improvement over the recent incarnation of Schoeneweis as well.
If. Then again, he could pitch exactly like he did in his other starts.

So no, Sox are not dead. Our (meaning players, KW, JR) backs are against the wall, true, but we aren't out of it by any stretch of imagination.
No, if they make an unlikely trade and if everything goes their way, and the Twins collapse because they can't be good enough to have back-to-back wins in the AL Central over a clearly superior Sox team.

Dream on.

PaulDrake
08-06-2004, 09:59 AM
I consider myself a realist. We're done. I am not accusing you of doing this, but I am getting sick and tired of certain overly optismistic Sox fans questioning the loyalty of other White Sox fans who feel we are done. Just because we don't put the rose-colored glasses on when looking at our team does not make us disloyal White Sox fans. Amen.

Palehose13
08-06-2004, 10:05 AM
I'll admit that I am pretty down right now, but I haven't "thrown in the towel" and I definitely won't blame Ozzie. I can't imagine ANY team losing their #3 and #4 hitters for the last half of the season and coming back without a stroke of luck. However, there is a slim chance and I am still a tad hopeful. I'll most likely throw in the towel if things haven't changed by September 1st, then I will focus on da Bears.

balke
08-06-2004, 10:11 AM
Twins are lucky B's. With the injuries they had they should've been toast, but the people on the bench were better than thier starters. There's so much range on that team, that it is hard to score anything more than homers off of them, and they have a great 5-man rotation to go with it. I hate twins fans, I hate the twins, but realize how difficult it will be to catch them.


Had we Maggs and Frank, things would be different by far. Different pickups, better bullpen, yadda yadda. bad luck for the sox. Losing 2 of 3 to KC is not a good sign when you are chasing the teams the sox are chasing.

Baby Fisk
08-06-2004, 10:13 AM
I'll admit that I am pretty down right now, but I haven't "thrown in the towel" and I definitely won't blame Ozzie. I can't imagine ANY team losing their #3 and #4 hitters for the last half of the season and coming back without a stroke of luck. However, there is a slim chance and I am still a tad hopeful. I'll most likely throw in the towel if things haven't changed by September 1st, then I will focus on da Bears.I'm with PH13. My towel has not yet been thrown either... but I have taken to weeping bitterly into it every night until falling asleep... :whiner:

Fungo
08-06-2004, 10:18 AM
I consider myself a realist. We're done. I am not accusing you of doing this, but I am getting sick and tired of certain overly optismistic Sox fans questioning the loyalty of other White Sox fans who feel we are done. Just because we don't put the rose-colored glasses on when looking at our team does not make us disloyal White Sox fans.Absolutely. This team has now lost series to the Royals, Mariners & Expos, 3 of the worst teams in all of baseball this year. What would make anyone believe this is a playoff caliber team is beyond me. This team would rather feel sorry for itself that have anyone step up in Maggs and Frank's absence. My heart tells me they still have a chance, but the realist in me says its over.

Lip Man 1
08-06-2004, 10:25 AM
"You can't win the Kentucky Derby by running mules. You've got to have the horses."-- Ozzie Guillen Sox Fest 2004.

And to those who continue to insist the Twins are 'lucky,' now THAT's entertainment!

They were also 'lucky' in 2001, 2002 AND 2003?

Some of those folks would claim the Twins were 'lucky' if they finished better then the Sox TEN years in a row.

Get real folks...there's a reason why they have finished higher in the standings and it's not because of 'luck.'

Lip

cwsox
08-06-2004, 10:49 AM
I'd bet 95% of the people on here saying every nasty thing about him they can think of thought he was some sort of baseball messiah back when the Sox were two games up. .
nice post to help us all to appreciate your wisdom

or not

actually the day Ozzie was hired I began a death watch on the old sox n roll board whichhas met a late and lamentable death its own self.

However, having not been thrilled at all to say the least about Ozzie when he was hired, he has done ok.

Inspiratiional leadership can win a handful of games but that is it over a 162 game schedule. The thing is we will have to wait 2-4 more seasons before we discover is Ozzie is a good managaer or not. A partial season withFranks and Mags injured is no barometer.

HomerCoach
08-06-2004, 10:53 AM
Let's call a spade a spade.
What else would you call a spade?:peace:<---has anyone ever used this smilie before?

Foulke29
08-06-2004, 10:54 AM
How can ANYONE give up this soon?!
Please note the last two games to the Tahoma Royals.

Please note that Tahoma's version of Jamie Navarro threw a two hitter against us.

Rocky Soprano
08-06-2004, 10:57 AM
Come on guys its obvious what the biggest problem is, its the fan's fault our team has failed.

cwsox
08-06-2004, 10:58 AM
Come on guys its obvious what the biggest problem is, its the fan's fault our team has failed.

KW was saying that about you ust this morning ---- but he exempted me :D:

1917
08-06-2004, 11:08 AM
I consider myself a realist. We're done. I am not accusing you of doing this, but I am getting sick and tired of certain overly optismistic Sox fans questioning the loyalty of other White Sox fans who feel we are done. Just because we don't put the rose-colored glasses on when looking at our team does not make us disloyal White Sox fans.
Well said. I'm with you. Being a realist doesn't make you a disloyal fan. I keep the Sox Flag in front of my house all year no matter what....Do the Sox have a chance this year? Yes. Do I think they will make the post season? No. And that is the opinion of a man who has watched 1,000's and 1,000's of Sox games in my life....we are do a break, but we lost our #3 and #4 hitters and I just can't see the Sox getting over the hump. Lee and Konerko are very hot and cold players, when they are hitting, they really hit, but then they go cold for a week, this is the time of the year were you can't go cold. We when you lose 2 of 3 to the worst team in the AL without Sweeney even being in your lineup....life is not good......I hope the best and will be with them to the end....but remember this team, despite a recent artical I read, was not predicted to win the Central, they were predicated 3rd with most experts and I remember Harold Reynolds saying 4th! Were in 2nd and we have a pulse still, so it's August and I'm still interested, which is more then I thought I would be! Good luck my friends, I'll always be rooting for you!

greenpeach
08-06-2004, 11:09 AM
I am also a realist and believe the Sox are out of it when it comes to the central division race. However, I believe they have a shot at the wild card. Even though the teams gunning for the wild card are probably better than the Twins are, I still believe there is a shot. Especially considering we play games against these teams.

I understand people are pissed about the inconsistency of this team on a day to day basis, but what do you expect? Yeah, you can say their lineup is still decent enough to put together some consistency, but do you think Boston's lineup would be consistent without Manny and Ortiz? The Cubs without Sosa and Alou? The Cardinals without Pujols and Rolen? You get the point, and I have brought up this point before. You can't just lose two .330/30/100 guys and expect consistency. Even if the other guys in the lineup can present a threat, they aren't acclimated to being in the roles that they are in.

I don't think the struggles can be blamed on any person. Ozzie can only do so much with what he has, Kenny has tried his best to keep this team in contention, the only real reason this team is having problems is the lack of their two best hitters.
How dare you come up with logical & reasonable explanations for our shortcomings this year.

I couldn't have said it better myself. Well done.

voodoochile
08-06-2004, 11:11 AM
I just haven't seen anything in this team since Frank and Maggs went down that leads me to believe they can continue the fight. You just can't expect guys to do what they're not capable of, and there is no one on the roster capable of becoming Frank and Maggs. In fact, when you expect guys to go beyond their capabilities, they often become worse than they were in their original roles. I think you see this happening now.
I completely agree. This team is pressing and tight - very tight. That's when mistakes happen and that is what is going on here.

Guys are trying to hit 10-run homers, worrying about making an error and trying to make perfect pitches.

That in turn leads to K's, errors and hanging sliders.:(:

Gimm
08-06-2004, 11:15 AM
Dream on.You know, I almost typed a really long, boring response detailing why exactly Twins are due for a big slump, why exactly Garland has a big inning in, say, the 5th after receiving no runs support in the first 4 innings, how exactly the team would benefit from the 2004 incarnation of Alomar in the 2-hole and Lofton - in the lead off spot, etc, etc.....But why bother? I am sure I went over all that stuff in other threads.

The next 7 weeks? They're gonna make the final judgement as which one of us is right. It go either way. Hopefully Kenny Lofton is acquired despite the 2002 bitterness.

Here's to you being wrong.

:bandance:

TornLabrum
08-06-2004, 11:29 AM
Twins are lucky B's. With the injuries they had they should've been toast, but the people on the bench were better than thier starters. There's so much range on that team, that it is hard to score anything more than homers off of them, and they have a great 5-man rotation to go with it. I hate twins fans, I hate the twins, but realize how difficult it will be to catch them.


Had we Maggs and Frank, things would be different by far. Different pickups, better bullpen, yadda yadda. bad luck for the sox. Losing 2 of 3 to KC is not a good sign when you are chasing the teams the sox are chasing.
The Twins have something we don't. They have a farm system that Terry Ryan developed from which they can grab players to fill in the holes created by the loss of players on the ML roster. We don't.

TornLabrum
08-06-2004, 11:31 AM
What else would you call a spade?:peace:<---has anyone ever used this smilie before?
I once knew someone who called a spade a shovel.

TornLabrum
08-06-2004, 11:33 AM
You know, I almost typed a really long, boring response detailing why exactly Twins are due for a big slump, why exactly Garland has a big inning in, say, the 5th after receiving no runs support in the first 4 innings, how exactly the team would benefit from the 2004 incarnation of Alomar in the 2-hole and Lofton - in the lead off spot, etc, etc.....But why bother? I am sure I went over all that stuff in other threads.

The next 7 weeks? They're gonna make the final judgement as which one of us is right. It go either way. Hopefully Kenny Lofton is acquired despite the 2002 bitterness.

Here's to you being wrong.

:bandance:
No one hopes more than I do that I'm wrong. But this is my 50th season as a Sox fan, and I know I'm not, just based on history.

Gimm
08-06-2004, 11:36 AM
No one hopes more than I do that I'm wrong. But this is my 50th season as a Sox fan, and I know I'm not, just based on history.
You know, history repeats itself until...it doesn't.



:gulp:

Foulke29
08-06-2004, 11:44 AM
You know, history repeats itself until...it doesn't.



:gulp:
And then it does again... like the time when I said, 'I am never going to drink like that again,' and then said it again - and again...

Fungo
08-06-2004, 11:47 AM
I completely agree. This team is pressing and tight - very tight. That's when mistakes happen and that is what is going on here.

Guys are trying to hit 10-run homers, worrying about making an error and trying to make perfect pitches.

That in turn leads to K's, errors and hanging sliders.:(:While I agree with what Kenny Williams had to say yesterday in his rant, I think that adds pressure as well. This team has enough pressure on it's collective shoulders and Williams comments only added to that.

kitekrazy
08-06-2004, 12:09 PM
Minnesota is due for a big slump, they simply do not have the talent to avoid it.


We waited for that last year. They were the hottest team the 2nd half.

alohafri
08-06-2004, 12:13 PM
While I agree with what Kenny Williams had to say yesterday in his rant, I think that adds pressure as well. This team has enough pressure on it's collective shoulders and Williams comments only added to that.
At first I was gonna say that this team doesn't need any more pressure, but then I thought YES they DO.....I think KW is just lashing out with his own frustrations--and I think many of us would have said the same thing to our employees if we felt they were not producing at a level they were capable of...(Garland being the main offender).

In the Aloha household, we have done our share of ranting and raving (much to the chagrin of the dogs and the neighbors). This weekend at the corpse-cell, we will probably have a few x-tra beverages and just enjoy the nice weather, the beautiful coffin (oops I mean ballpark), and scope out the beautiful people...you know----act like scrub fans. That way, we won't have to think about, or worry about, winning or anything so inconsequential like that. And before we know it, it will be Spring of 2005 where hope springs eternal again!

ok, the orderlies have told me my break is over and I'm being returned to my room....


:kukoo:<----Mrs. Aloha----> :nuts:

Hangar18
08-06-2004, 12:18 PM
if we keep this up for another week or two and get 8-10 games out we are done....there is still time, but they have to turn it around starting tomorrow
Heres my take on this. WERE DONE. The SOX dont have the luxury of being in that other phony National League. There are too many good teams over here, including the teams with "bad" records, like the Tigers and Rays and such. We deserve what we got. We didnt get the Pitching help, and Let our bench leave in the offseason, compounding our problems and forcing us to PAY MORE to get the players we shouldve gotten in the first place.

The bad thing is .....its not like the SOX are playing some very good baseball
and were just in a bad luck streak. Eventually, consistent good play evens itself out. No ..... we stink, and have no heart late innings. Some of these guys quit already.
No, the worst part is we shoudlve WON most of these games, we've botched the ball, struck out, popped up, failed to move runners over, Failed to PH batters in Key situations ( Ozz letting crede bat in late situations/can you say wheres Graffanino?) or using Mike Give-up-one-more-run Jackson in come-from-ahead situations. We dont play consistent ball, thats why were done.

HITMEN OF 77
08-06-2004, 12:21 PM
When its Oct 3rd, that's when I give up on the season. I believe we can still make the playoffs. I think with Alomar coming in it MIGHT turn the ship in the right direction. These next few home games will decide which way we will going for the rest of the season. Our post season begins NOW.

nlentz88
08-06-2004, 12:41 PM
Let's call a spade a spade.
This is off topic, but I can't sit by and say nothing when people use the above phrase. I don't think many people know the phrase's racist roots. It's really a terrible thing to say. I'm sure TornLabrum wasn't worrying about linguistics and the history of American racism when he submitted that post. Nevertheless, I'd like to hope he and others might read my post and refrain from using that particular offensive phrase.

But yes, TornLabrum has a good point. I love the Sox and hope they do find a way to turn the season around and make it to the post-season. However, I'm not about to kid myself about the team's chances of doing so. Personally, I think Kenny could have done something more to help this team. Unfortunately he probably would have had to have mortgaged some of the team's future to do so. He's made some interesting acquisitions lately, but nothing that would ensure us a division championship or wild card berth. He's sticking with the team he's got and rolling the dice.

And I don't think anyone should criticize people who post on this board for being excited about the Sox chances when we were two games up and then being depressed when we loose seven in a row. That's just the nature of being a fan. When our team is winning we can't help but dream about bringing a championship to Chicago. When our team team loses we can't help but have nightmares about another post-season with the only Chicago representative being the blue boys up north. If you're not emotionally involved with your team's ups and downs, then you're a different breed of fan than I'm used to.

That's all. Sorry about the PC rant above. We're here to talk Sox baseball, afterall, and not racism or linguistics. Still, I felt I couldn't let it go by without saying something.

alohafri
08-06-2004, 01:43 PM
nlentz:

I can absolutely assure you that TornLabrum did not use the phrase "calling a spade a spade" as any kind of ethnic slur....in fact, the phrase
is NOT an ethnic slur.

It derives from an ancient Greek expression which translates to "to call a fig a fig, a trough a trough". This is first recorded in Aristophanes' play The Clouds (423 B.C.), was used by Menander and Plutarch, and is still current
in modern Greek. There has been a slight shift in meaning: in
ancient times the phrase was often used pejoratively, to denote a
rude person who spoke his mind tactlessly; but it now, like the
English phrase, has an exclusively positive connotation. It is
possible that both the fig and the trough were originally sexual
symbols.
In the Renaissance, Erasmus confused Plutarch's "trough"
with the Greek word for "digging tool"--
the two words are etymologically connected, a trough being
something that is hollowed out) and rendered it in Latin as "ligo".
Thence it was translated into English in 1542 by Nicholas Udall in
his translation of Erasmus's version as "to call a spade [...] a
spade". (Bartlett's Familiar Quotations perpetuates Erasmus'
error by mistranslating _skaphe:_ as "spade" three times under
Menander.)
"To call a spade a bloody shovel" is not recorded until 1919.
"Spade" in the sense of "Negro" is not recorded until 1928. (It
comes from the color of the playing card symbol, via the phrase
"black as the ace of spades".)

This, of course, does *not* necessarily render the modern use of
"to call a spade a spade" "politically correct". Rosalie Maggio, in
The Bias-Free Word-Finder, writes: "The expression is associated
with a racial slur and is to be avoided", and recommends using "to
speak plainly" or other alternatives instead. In another entry, she
writes: "Although by definition and derivation 'niggardly' and
'******' are completely unrelated, 'niggardly' is too close for
comfort to a word with profoundly negative associations. Use
instead one of the many available alternatives: stingy, miserly,
parsimonious..." Beard and Cerf, in The Official Politically
Correct Handbook, p. 123, report that an administrator at the
University of California at Santa Cruz campaigned for the banning
of such phrases as "a chink in his armor" and "a nip in the air",
because "chink" and "nip" are also derogatory terms for "Chinese
person" and "Japanese person" respectively. In the late 1970s in
the U.S., a boycott of the (now defunct) Sambo's restaurant chain
was organized, even though the name "Sambo's" was a combination of
the names of its two founders and did not come from the offensive
word for dark-skinned person.

So there you have it. :smile:

---Mrs. Aloha (taking liberties with search engines)

fuzzy_patters
08-06-2004, 01:48 PM
And I don't think anyone should criticize people who post on this board for being excited about the Sox chances when we were two games up and then being depressed when we loose seven in a row. That's just the nature of being a fan. When our team is winning we can't help but dream about bringing a championship to Chicago. When our team team loses we can't help but have nightmares about another post-season with the only Chicago representative being the blue boys up north. If you're not emotionally involved with your team's ups and downs, then you're a different breed of fan than I'm used to.

Good point and spot on. Every time the Sox lose a little piece of me dies. This is what pisses me off about people who come on here and claim that people without faith are not really fans. They are the people that are not true fans. If they were, they would understand where we are coming from because they would hurt as badly as the rest of us do.

Also, you're point about getting excited when the Sox are playing well was a good one. When the team has never been to the WS in your lifetime, how can you got get irrationally exuberant when they tempt you with WS dreams? That is what being a fan is all about.

nlentz88
08-06-2004, 03:09 PM
Mrs. Aloha,

Thank you so much for your reply! I love etymology, and reading your history of the phrase was a joy. Thanks for the lesson!

-nlentz88

Go Sox!

TornLabrum
08-06-2004, 03:11 PM
When its Oct 3rd, that's when I give up on the season. I believe we can still make the playoffs. I think with Alomar coming in it MIGHT turn the ship in the right direction. These next few home games will decide which way we will going for the rest of the season. Our post season begins NOW.
You should probably give up when we're eliminated from both the Central championship and the wild card. To hope beyond those dates is foolish.

cwsox
08-06-2004, 03:24 PM
When the team has never been to the WS in your lifetime, how can you got get irrationally exuberant when they tempt you with WS dreams? That is what being a fan is all about.
Maybe in your lifetime ...:D:

granted I was only 7 but I do remember it!

I agree with your sentiment

Palehose13
08-06-2004, 04:28 PM
nlentz:

I can absolutely assure you that TornLabrum did not use the phrase "calling a spade a spade" as any kind of ethnic slur....in fact, the phrase
is NOT an ethnic slur.

...

So there you have it. :smile:

---Mrs. Aloha (taking liberties with search engines)Holy sheet! Wow, Mrs. Aloha!!!!

Viva Magglio
08-06-2004, 08:25 PM
I think with Alomar coming in it MIGHT turn the ship in the right direction.
Well, that is an interesting point. Of course, after we got RAlomar last season, it propelled us all the way to the World Ser...oh, wait a minute...