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Randar68
08-05-2004, 08:59 PM
Jason Gage and the guys from futuresox.com set me up with press passes tonight for the Winston-Salem vs Frederick game, where Brandon McCarthy was pitching.

WOW. He gave up a lead-off double on a high fastball in the first inning, then went on to retire 18 straight hitters, then striking out the leadoff man in the 7th, only to see him reach first on what was ruled a WP (Wally Rosa took FOREVER to get to the ball and then double-clutched, allowing the runner to beat it out). That runner then stole 2nd base, and advanced to 3rd on a groundout, scoring on a SF for the only run scored off of him.

He only threw about 90 pitches in the 7 IP, w/ 8 K, 0 BB, 1 WP, 1 ER, picking up the W (5-0) in the 3-2 victory.

I'll be interviewing a few players to go up on that site in the coming days, but just wanted to pass along this info for those interested. Very impressed by more than just the results.

MRKARNO
08-05-2004, 09:14 PM
On a day in which the major league team looks like crap, this type of stuff is always good news. Sounds like BMac is the best pitching prospect in our system right now. Isn't W-S's park an extreme hitters park too?

What is he doing that makes him so good exactly? Does he know how to pitch well or is he blowing guys away (from what I've heard it's more the former than the latter)?

Randar68
08-05-2004, 09:21 PM
On a day in which the major league team looks like crap, this type of stuff is always good news. Sounds like BMac is the best pitching prospect in our system right now. Isn't W-S's park an extreme hitters park too?

What is he doing that makes him so good exactly? Does he know how to pitch well or is he blowing guys away (from what I've heard it's more the former than the latter)?
Well, he has pinpoint control of his fastball, and is just learning to use his cutter. Very good command of his curve, too, and seems to be able to throw it for a strike just about whenever he wants to. He has a very fluid delivery and has good deception, which makes that 92 mph look a bit quicker. He was sitting around 91-93 most of the night, but I did see him hit 95 a couple times. He only used his change-up a few times, but he never pitches to the middle of the plate, and mixes his pitches very well. Backing up a 16-K game with an 8K, 1H, 0BB game is pretty damned impressive.

If he adds a consistent 2 mph to his fastball, he has top-of-the-rotation-starter written all over him. I saw him throw quite a few 91 mph fastballs by some decent prospects tonight.

In 7 IP, he only went to a full-count once, and only had about 85-90 pitches thrown (I had 81, but know a missed a handful)

California Sox
08-05-2004, 09:23 PM
Great. With Honel's future murky, McCarthy appears to be the best chance we have to develop a frontline starter. I'd love it if you went into more detail, Randar, as to what impressed you about his stuff/command when you get the opportunity.

Randar68
08-05-2004, 09:31 PM
Great. With Honel's future murky, McCarthy appears to be the best chance we have to develop a frontline starter. I'd love it if you went into more detail, Randar, as to what impressed you about his stuff/command when you get the opportunity.
The whole package. He has some occassional nice movement on his fastball, although it's the location that's important. Very fluid mechanics and he hides the ball exceptionally well and it doesn't appear to the hitter until the last moment before release. Curve is a nice sharp 11-5 breaker, and if he can really develop that change-up, he's going to be a stud. I'm not 100% sure it was a cutter he was throwing, but he was at 91-93 all night, and had a few 89's that really tailed into the RH'ers, also picking up a terrific looking K on a lefty with it. I would swear it was a cutter, but I'll have to ask about that.

6'7" and although it has been reported that he's around 200 pounds, I'm not sure he'd weigh that much soaking wet in his uniform. If he adds 20 pounds and actually hits 95 mph consistently, oh my, it's already such an easy-cheese for him... There were quite a few ooh's and ahhh's from the crowd tonight. A few regulars I talked to thought he would maybe only get another start or 2 in W-S before beign promoted, he was so good, but I do think he'll stay there the rest of the year as they're being cautious.

Amazing polish for a kid that age at that level.

Gimm
08-05-2004, 10:31 PM
People have no idea how good Brandon MaCarthy can be if he 1) avoids arm problems and 2) avoids Ankiel-esque meltdown

He already has what so many only dream of having: poise and pinpoint control. Everything starts and ends with that.

Then you add his low-90's (will be low-to-mid-90s before it's all said and done) fastball, a smooth curveball, improving cutter and, as per Cerberus-WG, a solid change-up.....Sky is the limit.

Sox don't have much depth in the minors, but with MaCarthy, Honel, Cotts, Gonzalez, Diaz, we are in pretty good shape. Knock on wood.

SouthSideRyan
08-05-2004, 10:32 PM
Any truth to the rumor that he's the PTBNL?

trailboss
08-05-2004, 10:38 PM
Is that a real rumor about BMAC or are you just trolling?

Gimm
08-05-2004, 10:46 PM
Any truth to the rumor that he's the PTBNL?
If that's the case, KW should be fired on the spot. Check that, if he gave up Borchard he should be fired.

Robbie could help this team, but only if we give up someone like Yofu - not your premiere talent.

Win1ForMe
08-05-2004, 11:16 PM
Any truth to the rumor that he's the PTBNL?That's not what I heard. It's supposedly 2 of Anderson/Sweeny/Diaz. This team's future isn't looking so bright anymore.














:rolleyes:

California Sox
08-06-2004, 12:10 AM
Thanks for the report, Randar. The kid sounds impressive. I can't wait to see him next spring in Tucson. And if the PTBNL has two arms and two legs, KW gave up to much.

dasox24
08-06-2004, 12:12 AM
Jason Gage and the guys from futuresox.com set me up with press passes tonight for the Winston-Salem vs Frederick game, where Brandon McCarthy was pitching.
Those FutureSox (http://www.futuresox.com/) guys rock! Everyone needs to start reading that site! It's great for info on all, not just Sox, prospects, too! And, there's a pretty good article on the playoff hunt that 4 of the Sox' minor league teams are in. Here's the link to that:
Warthogs Win 10 in a Row, Find Themselves in First (http://www.futuresox.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=755&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0)

Rex Hudler
08-06-2004, 01:10 AM
I can't really add anything to what randar reported on McCarthy, but I can echo his basic premise based on what a veteran scout told me two weeks ago.

He said he really McCarthy and that "the kid really knows how to pitch". He said he located well and knew how to work all four quandrants of the zone, working in and out and up and down. He said he rated him as a definite big league starter.

Mohoney
08-06-2004, 01:35 AM
Very good command of his curve, too, and seems to be able to throw it for a strike just about whenever he wants to.

I really hope they give this guy a SERIOUS look in '06. Someone that throws something other than a fastball for strikes sounds like a dream come true after watching Dumb and Dumber out there these past 2 days in Kansas City.

Can this kid jump straight to AAA next year? If not, who else are we hanging our hat on that this kid can't be promoted?

Gimm
08-06-2004, 01:42 AM
Someone that throws something other than a fastball for strikes sounds like a dream come true after watching Dumb and Dumber out there these past 2 days in Kansas City.


So true.

Have you ever wondered why Garland, who tops out at 93-94 on his four-seamer and has a very good sinker, registers so few strike-outs?

Mohoney
08-06-2004, 02:02 AM
So true.

Have you ever wondered why Garland, who tops out at 93-94 on his four-seamer and has a very good sinker, registers so few strike-outs?

I've been thinking about that, and I think I might have an explanation. To strike people out, you have to throw AT LEAST 3 strikes in an at-bat, and the 3rd strike has to either be so deceptive that the hitter is fooled into taking it, or so perfect that the hitter can't make contact with it. His "very good" sinker is often taken for a ball. Hell, even his fastball is often taken for a ball. He seems to have 2 and 3 ball counts on every hitter. Then, a fastball down the pipe and a 3 run homer.

He doesn't have good control. He can't throw a legit third offspeed pitch for strikes, thus making him a 2 pitch pitcher. Without those 2 things, 91-93 mph isn't enough to just blow people away. Plus, he doesn't keep the ball in the park.

In fact, referring to what Jon Garland does as "pitching" might be getting a little loose with the language.

Gimm
08-06-2004, 10:15 AM
In fact, referring to what Jon Garland does as "pitching" might be getting a little loose with the language.
No no, occasionally, when he spots his change and gets the curve over, that coupled with his two fastballs....well, he is very tough on batters, let's just say.

Of course, that only happens once every 4 starts or so.

jeremyb1
08-07-2004, 01:41 AM
So true.

Have you ever wondered why Garland, who tops out at 93-94 on his four-seamer and has a very good sinker, registers so few strike-outs?

Constantly. He needs a different approach or a new pitch. He's never really missed a lot of at bats and it doesn't make a ton of sense with his stuff. I don't know why guys hit his fastball so well considering the movement on it. He probably needs another pitch to set it up.

Win1ForMe
08-07-2004, 02:39 AM
Earlier today I went over to the B.A. website to check on some minor league stats. I found that in 44 IP, BMac has 3 BB and 52 Ks. Am I the only one thinking those are insane #s? This kid has to be a top-10 prospect in baseball if he keeps it going into AA, right?

Chisoxfn
08-07-2004, 04:35 AM
Earlier today I went over to the B.A. website to check on some minor league stats. I found that in 44 IP, BMac has 3 BB and 52 Ks. Am I the only one thinking those are insane #s? This kid has to be a top-10 prospect in baseball if he keeps it going into AA, right? No...your not the only one :)

He's got a chance to be a good one.

Gimm
08-07-2004, 11:15 AM
Constantly. He needs a different approach or a new pitch. He's never really missed a lot of at bats and it doesn't make a ton of sense with his stuff. I don't know why guys hit his fastball so well considering the movement on it. He probably needs another pitch to set it up.He has a curve, change and occasionally mixes in a slider.

And yet he is still the same mediocre pitcher he was in 2002.

Cerberus-WG
08-07-2004, 01:07 PM
Randar, you're quite the lucky one to see McCarthy pitch. When Jason, Mario, Ian and I were in NC/SC we didn't get to see many higher-up prospects pitch. Saw Ray and Lubisich in W-S, Stewart and Rauch in Charlotte, Miller and someone I can't recall in Kannapolis.

Was fun to watch Miller pitch then reference him in my BA Prospect Handbook to see Phil Rogers saying he throws "easy heat". Two words: violent delivery and 2-3 MPH below what was listed (we were sitting behind Haigwood, Flores, Moat).

See anyone else Randar?

OurBitchinMinny
08-07-2004, 05:27 PM
If that's the case, KW should be fired on the spot. Check that, if he gave up Borchard he should be fired.

Robbie could help this team, but only if we give up someone like Yofu - not your premiere talent.

Since when is borchard premiere talent? Maybe 3 years ago, but he keeps on proving he is not a major league baseball player

jeremyb1
08-08-2004, 12:53 AM
He has a curve, change and occasionally mixes in a slider.

And yet he is still the same mediocre pitcher he was in 2002.

I'd count his change at half a pitch at best. He rarely throws it and when he does he seems to leave it up and give up home runs. He's largely a two pitch pitcher with his fastball and his curve. He very rarely seems to throw his slider or his four seemer. His fastball is good enough that he doesn't need a ton of pitches but a third solid go to pitch might go a long ways.

jeremyb1
08-08-2004, 02:13 AM
Earlier today I went over to the B.A. website to check on some minor league stats. I found that in 44 IP, BMac has 3 BB and 52 Ks. Am I the only one thinking those are insane #s? This kid has to be a top-10 prospect in baseball if he keeps it going into AA, right?

I'd certainly agree that those are insane numbers. However, a top ten prospect is overdoing it. Top 100 yeah but top ten would require a lot more good work on his part. When you think about it Anderson and Sweeney are still probably more highly regarded at this point and we don't have a top notch system right now. There are 29 other clubs out there. Also, the very top guys seem to have otherwordly performances for the course of an entire minor league season (Reed last season) or play incredibly well in the high minors at a very young age (BJ Upton as a 20 year old crushing the ball in AAA). McCarthy would need a full season at AA on par with his current WS performance to start to approach that level.

Gimm
08-08-2004, 03:35 AM
His fastball is good enough that he doesn't need a ton of pitches but a third solid go to pitch might go a long ways.
What do you have in mind?

jeremyb1
08-08-2004, 05:44 PM
What do you have in mind?

I don't know. Not really my area of expertise. Learning how to throw his curve well would certainly be nice. Someone once argued on this board he needs a pitch that breaks the other direction such as a screwball. I wonder if he couldn't just throw his four seamer more often and throw guys off. Sometimes he throws the pitch up in the zone when he's ahead in the count to see if guys will chase it but he never seems to try to locate it in the zone. Loaiza was really successful spotting both his four seamer and his cutter on the corners. Anyone else have ideas?

(Also, if it's possible and time permits if a Mod would be intersted in seperating the Garland posts from the BMac posts and moving the Garland thread to the Sox forum that'd be greatly appreciated.)

Daver
08-08-2004, 06:05 PM
I don't know. Not really my area of expertise.But I thought stats told you everything you needed to know about the game.

Gimm
08-08-2004, 06:17 PM
But I thought stats told you everything you needed to know about the game.
Do you have any suggestions/constructive input, Dave?

Daver
08-08-2004, 06:29 PM
Do you have any suggestions/constructive input, Dave?
All I have seen of Brandon is about a half hour of tape, which is not enough to draw any conclusions from. Offering an opinion based on a box score or a scouting report is a very diffucult thing to do.

Gimm
08-08-2004, 06:42 PM
All I have seen of Brandon is about a half hour of tape, which is not enough to draw any conclusions from. Offering an opinion based on a box score or a scouting report is a very diffucult thing to do.
No, I meant when it comes to how to improve Garland.

Daver
08-08-2004, 08:28 PM
No, I meant when it comes to how to improve Garland.
Can you really force someone to grow a set?

That is all that is lacking for him to take the next step, the confidence to go out every fifth day and feel he has the edge on the competition.

Gimm
08-08-2004, 08:32 PM
That is all that is lacking for him to take the next step, the confidence to go out every fifth day and feel he has the edge on the competition.
So you see nothing wrong with his control/command/non-sinker repertoire?

Daver
08-08-2004, 08:36 PM
So you see nothing wrong with his control/command/non-sinker repertoire?
Command is tied to confidence, as is mound prescence. His control has always been decent, he can find the strike zone.

His mechanics do not mesh well with throwing a sinker, he could learn to throw a two seam cutter though.

SoxxoS
08-08-2004, 09:34 PM
You know for a fact Garland is going to prosper on another team. When he is 35, he isn't going to have these mental breakdowns he is having now.

Drafting a high schooler is such a crapshoot, obviously...But worst case scenario is a guy like Garland, b/c he has such good stuff, but it takes time to harness it...and it will most likely be with another team.

Daver
08-08-2004, 09:36 PM
You know for a fact Garland is going to prosper on another team. When he is 35, he isn't going to have these mental breakdowns he is having now.

Drafting a high schooler is such a crapshoot, obviously...But worst case scenario is a guy like Garland, b/c he has such good stuff, but it takes time to harness it...and it will most likely be with another team.
Just ask the Expos, they gave up on Randy Johnson at 26, we all know the rest of the story.

Mohoney
08-08-2004, 11:33 PM
Can you really force someone to grow a set?

Perfect summation. Plus, he's a cocky, arrogant turd on top of it! The guy sees absolutely nothing wrong with going 6 or 7 innings and giving up 4 or 5 runs. He thinks that those outings are solid enough to consistently win at the major league level.

Trade this guy in the offseason. I would just as soon see what Diaz and Stewart can do.

Gimm
08-08-2004, 11:35 PM
Trade this guy in the offseason. I would just as soon see what Diaz and Stewart can do.
Stewart is not a major league pitcher.

Mohoney
08-08-2004, 11:36 PM
You know for a fact Garland is going to prosper on another team. When he is 35, he isn't going to have these mental breakdowns he is having now.

I'll take that bet. If a career record of about 150-145 with a career ERA of about 4.50 is prospering, I sure as hell HOPE that he prospers somewhere else.

jeremyb1
08-08-2004, 11:40 PM
But I thought stats told you everything you needed to know about the game.

Well, I've been searching for the thread for twenty minutes to quote and link it but I can't find it so if you disagree with my interpretation of the following posts, you'll have to inform me.

In a post a month or two back, I gave an opinion about a pitcher do which you made a similar comment saying "Really, have you ever seen [the player] pitch." I replied along the lines of "No, but I don't claim to be a scout. I'm doing my best of evaluting the situation from the performance perspective from which I'm situated. Since I'm not a scout I don't have the full picture just as I'd imagine you lack a complete picture without the ability to interpret statistics."

At the time I wondered why you failed to responed to the post Daver. Naviely I simply hoped you realized my point that we were on different yet equal footing and agreed with me. Since you've made another incindiary remark about how I think everything revolves around stats, would you care to respond to my earlier post?

Mohoney
08-08-2004, 11:46 PM
Stewart is not a major league pitcher.

As I've said before, neither is Garland. I'll bet Stewart could post a .500 record with an ERA of 4.50, and at a fraction of Garland's salary.

Wealz
08-09-2004, 12:03 AM
Command is tied to confidence, as is mound prescence. His control has always been decent, he can find the strike zone.

His mechanics do not mesh well with throwing a sinker, he could learn to throw a two seam cutter though.
I've felt for a long time that Garland's stuff was overrated. I laugh now thinking of when Farmer would compare him to Kevin Brown in his first couple years. He's sort of a 'tweener in that he doesn't possess enough velocity or good enough control to be a top-of-the rotation starter, imo.

Gimm
08-09-2004, 12:09 AM
As I've said before, neither is Garland. .
Huh? Garland is an average ML'er.


I'll bet Stewart could post a .500 record with an ERA of 4.50, and at a fraction of Garland's salary

You're gonna lose the bet - he'd be lucky if his ERA broke under 6.00.

Gimm
08-09-2004, 12:12 AM
I've felt for a long time that Garland's stuff was overrated. I laugh now thinking of when Farmer would compare him to Kevin Brown in his first couple years. He's sort of a 'tweener in that he doesn't possess enough velocity or good enough control to be a top-of-the rotation starter, imo.
Amen. Comparisons to Brown are silly.

Judy ain't got Brown's fastball. She ain't got Brown's sinker. She ain't got Brown's breaking ball. She ain't got Brown's bulldog mentality.

Wealz
08-09-2004, 12:20 AM
Amen. Comparisons to Brown are silly.

Judy ain't got Brown's fastball. She ain't got Brown's sinker. She ain't got Brown's breaking ball. She ain't got Brown's bulldog mentality.
Yep, Brown was nasty even before he put it all together. Garland, OTOH, is imminently hittable.

ondafarm
08-09-2004, 07:14 AM
Jason Gage and the guys from futuresox.com set me up with press passes tonight for the Winston-Salem vs Frederick game, where Brandon McCarthy was pitching.

WOW. He gave up a lead-off double on a high fastball in the first inning, then went on to retire 18 straight hitters, then striking out the leadoff man in the 7th, only to see him reach first on what was ruled a WP (Wally Rosa took FOREVER to get to the ball and then double-clutched, allowing the runner to beat it out). That runner then stole 2nd base, and advanced to 3rd on a groundout, scoring on a SF for the only run scored off of him.

He only threw about 90 pitches in the 7 IP, w/ 8 K, 0 BB, 1 WP, 1 ER, picking up the W (5-0) in the 3-2 victory.

I'll be interviewing a few players to go up on that site in the coming days, but just wanted to pass along this info for those interested. Very impressed by more than just the results.
When and where does he pitch next? I might be able to make the game.

SoxxoS
08-09-2004, 10:15 AM
Amen. Comparisons to Brown are silly.

Judy ain't got Brown's fastball. She ain't got Brown's sinker. She ain't got Brown's breaking ball. She ain't got Brown's bulldog mentality.
Absolutely. Not only does Brown have plus stuff on all of his pitches (maybe not anymore) but he has that mentality of a winner.

It did take Brown about 6-7 seasons to become a really, really good pitcher, however.

poorme
08-09-2004, 11:50 AM
Brown had some arm troubles early in his career I think..

habibharu
08-09-2004, 12:59 PM
Stewart is not a major league pitcher. well he is a major league pitcher, just not a starter. he could probably be a lefty long man out of the pen

Randar68
08-09-2004, 01:07 PM
See anyone else Randar?
I saw Harrell, Marshall, and Bello pitch for Bristol, McCarthy, Tracey, Reynoso pitch for W-S, and Lumsden in relief, and I should be able to see Diaz, Grilli in Charlotte tonight and tomorrow night. I hope to catch the Wednesday night Kanny game which should be either Whisler or Haigwood.

I was able to interview Casey Rogowski, Brian Miller and Josh Fields the other day. Miller said his fastball was 88-91 IIRC (don't have it in front of me), definitely not what I was expecting him to say.

REALLY impressed so far:
McCarthy
Tracey
Lopez
Bristol C Francisco Hernandez (VERY quick release)
Brandon Allen
Sweeney
Fields' defense
Rogowski playing well in LF

Rex Hudler
08-09-2004, 01:15 PM
Diaz is pitching for Chicago tonight, not Charlotte.

See what you miss when you are on the road??

Randar68
08-09-2004, 01:20 PM
When and where does he pitch next? I might be able to make the game.
They're on a 5-man rotation, so he should be pitching on Tuesday or Wednesday at Wilmington

Randar68
08-09-2004, 01:22 PM
Diaz is pitching for Chicago tonight, not Charlotte.

See what you miss when you are on the road??
LOL. The only thing I've been able to keep abreast of is the fact that the Sox have been tanking it.

Rex Hudler
08-09-2004, 01:22 PM
LOL. The only thing I've been able to keep abreast of is the fact that the Sox have been tanking it.
That really about says it all anyway......

Cerberus-WG
08-09-2004, 02:04 PM
I saw Harrell, Marshall, and Bello pitch for Bristol, McCarthy, Tracey, Reynoso pitch for W-S, and Lumsden in relief, and I should be able to see Diaz, Grilli in Charlotte tonight and tomorrow night. I hope to catch the Wednesday night Kanny game which should be either Whisler or Haigwood.

I was able to interview Casey Rogowski, Brian Miller and Josh Fields the other day. Miller said his fastball was 88-91 IIRC (don't have it in front of me), definitely not what I was expecting him to say.

REALLY impressed so far:
McCarthy
Tracey
Lopez
Bristol C Francisco Hernandez (VERY quick release)
Brandon Allen
Sweeney
Fields' defense
Rogowski playing well in LF
Good stuff, Randar. I know that I was supposed to interview Rogowski and Fields when I was down there, but due to time restraints I couldn't fit them in. I'm not surprised at all at Miller's velo, as I said earlier I was sitting right behind two radar guns in Miller's start and was topping out at 90. His delivery was very, very violent too.

As for Sweeney, has he stopped lunging at the ball? When I saw him for two games he was really lunging his entire body towards the ball.

Note: Tracey only needs 9 more HBP to set the Carolina League record w/ 30. Go Sean go! B-Mac joked around with him on that one.

maurice
08-09-2004, 02:59 PM
Bristol C Francisco Hernandez (VERY quick release)
That's good to hear. He's a switch hitter, posting .284/.339/.404 in just over 100 ABs this season.

jeremyb1
08-09-2004, 03:36 PM
As I've said before, neither is Garland. I'll bet Stewart could post a .500 record with an ERA of 4.50, and at a fraction of Garland's salary.

Based on what? You don't think Garland could post a 3.97 ERA in AAA? He posted an ERA of two there four years ago.

Chisoxfn
08-09-2004, 04:43 PM
As I've said before, neither is Garland. I'll bet Stewart could post a .500 record with an ERA of 4.50, and at a fraction of Garland's salary. Thats crazy, you act as if Stewart has tremendous command of all his pitches. If he did he'd already be at the major league level. I'm not saying Stewart won't make it back to the majors, he probably will, as a back of the rotation guy for a mediocre club (maybe being able to show himself enough to start for a while) or as a back of the pen type guy.

However, Garland is 1000 times the ML pitcher Stewart is. Garland gets deep into games, on the most part, and has fantastic stuff. Just cause he looks relaxed doesn't mean he isn't taking the games serious. Fact is, some guys just don't have a real mad look on their face or what not.

How the heck you can say Stewart is better then Garland...I have no idea.

Chisoxfn
08-09-2004, 04:47 PM
Awesome Stuff Randar. Hopefully you got the email or two I sent over the weekend. Really looking forward to hearing what you saw.

Also, the other pitcher Cerb and I saw in Kanny was Whisler. He was working on a splitter during his bullpen session with Lisk and went on to pitch a pretty solid game.

We saw Whisler and Miller. Pitching wise, on the most part, we missed all the good prospects, but were able to get a good glance at all the hitting prospects.

Daver
08-09-2004, 06:12 PM
I've felt for a long time that Garland's stuff was overrated. I laugh now thinking of when Farmer would compare him to Kevin Brown in his first couple years. He's sort of a 'tweener in that he doesn't possess enough velocity or good enough control to be a top-of-the rotation starter, imo.
I don't remember ever saying that Jon Garland had overpowering stuff. If he could develop the confidence to use the ability he has he could be a succesful middle of the rotation pitcher. Pitching well within the strike zone is mostly mental, not physical, as for velocity, tell your story to Greg Maddux and Tom Glavine, neither one of them throw with the velocity Garland has.

Randar68
08-09-2004, 09:57 PM
Awesome Stuff Randar. Hopefully you got the email or two I sent over the weekend. Really looking forward to hearing what you saw.

Also, the other pitcher Cerb and I saw in Kanny was Whisler. He was working on a splitter during his bullpen session with Lisk and went on to pitch a pretty solid game.

We saw Whisler and Miller. Pitching wise, on the most part, we missed all the good prospects, but were able to get a good glance at all the hitting prospects.
Yep, got the e-mails. thanks again, updates to come, lot's of material for top-50 lists and scouting reports.

Randar68
08-09-2004, 10:08 PM
Good stuff, Randar. I know that I was supposed to interview Rogowski and Fields when I was down there, but due to time restraints I couldn't fit them in. I'm not surprised at all at Miller's velo, as I said earlier I was sitting right behind two radar guns in Miller's start and was topping out at 90. His delivery was very, very violent too.

As for Sweeney, has he stopped lunging at the ball? When I saw him for two games he was really lunging his entire body towards the ball.

Note: Tracey only needs 9 more HBP to set the Carolina League record w/ 30. Go Sean go! B-Mac joked around with him on that one.
I didn't get to see Miller pitch, but max-effort was something I had heard before. He seems like a real shy guy, either that or he just wasn't very comfortable talking to me. Rogo and Fields were great about everything, and they're both pretty damn funny. Rogo was better than I expected in LF, seemed comfortable, and I talked to him a little about that.

I saw Sweeney against a couple of LH's and it seems like he lunges out over the plate and tries to smack the ball to LF against lefties. He wasn't really jumping at the ball too badly when he was facing a RH'er, and hit balls hard up the middle several times. Ton of plate coverage.

Chisoxfn
08-10-2004, 12:23 AM
I don't remember ever saying that Jon Garland had overpowering stuff. If he could develop the confidence to use the ability he has he could be a succesful middle of the rotation pitcher. Pitching well within the strike zone is mostly mental, not physical, as for velocity, tell your story to Greg Maddux and Tom Glavine, neither one of them throw with the velocity Garland has. I agree with Dave on this. Plus, as a kind of sidenote...every since I can remember, this has been his stance on Garland.

Oh ya, if it means anything, I now know why you like Kirk Champion...I don't really think he cares too much about the gun readings. By that I don't think he writes a guy off because he can't throw really hard.

Daver
08-10-2004, 09:55 PM
I agree with Dave on this. Plus, as a kind of sidenote...every since I can remember, this has been his stance on Garland.

Oh ya, if it means anything, I now know why you like Kirk Champion...I don't really think he cares too much about the gun readings. By that I don't think he writes a guy off because he can't throw really hard.
I like Kirk because he values pitching, and all it entails. There is a hell of a lot more to pitching than what the gun tells you, something Kirk fully understands, I give him credit for the strides made by Ryan Meaux and Arnie Munoz. Turning Munoz into a starter was no small accomplishment in and of itself.

Gimm
08-10-2004, 10:40 PM
Turning Munoz into a starter was no small accomplishment in and of itself.
In his Montreal start, he had a BP fastball, floating change-up and a ridiculously overrated (Barry Zito?!) curveball. He was tipping his pitches at times as well.

I know it's in vogue to blame everything and everyone but the pitcher for horrible outings these days, but if that was the real Munoz, then he doesn't not have what it takes to be a ML pitcher, back-end of the rotation or not.

Here is where you explain to me why Munoz will be a very good ML pitcher. I am certainly listening.

Daver
08-10-2004, 10:50 PM
In his Montreal start, he had a BP fastball, floating change-up and a ridiculously overrated (Barry Zito?!) curveball. He was tipping his pitches at times as well.

I know it's in vogue to blame everything and everyone but the pitcher for horrible outings these days, but if that was the real Munoz, then he doesn't not have what it takes to be a ML pitcher, back-end of the rotation or not.

Here is where you explain to me why Munoz will be a very good ML pitcher. I am certainly listening.
If you are going to base your assesment of his ability on a spot start that he got shelled in, I have no desire to discuss pitching with you.It would be a waste of my time.

If you want to discuss what he has done in the minors, and the strides he has made while under a tremendous workload for what he is accustomed to, it might be worth my effort. Might. I have my doubts about what you follow in minor league ball, if any, and I will leave it at that.

Gimm
08-11-2004, 12:30 AM
If you are going to base your assesment of his ability on a spot start that he got shelled in, .
Why shouldn't I? I could care less about excuses, just stating the obvious here. It's one thing to get "shelled" - see Grienke tonight - and quite another to literally not have ONE redeeming quality about you. Velocity, movement, control, deception....nada. If he's going to be a successful ML starter, he is going to have to improve on EVERY area and fast.


If you want to discuss what he has done in the minors, and the strides he has made while under a tremendous workload for what he is accustomed to, it might be worth my effort.

Go ahead, dissect the entity known as Artie "Baby Zito" Munoz. I am all ears.

Rex Hudler
08-11-2004, 01:20 AM
Why shouldn't I? I could care less about excuses, just stating the obvious here. It's one thing to get "shelled" - see Grienke tonight - and quite another to literally not have ONE redeeming quality about you. Velocity, movement, control, deception....nada. If he's going to be a successful ML starter, he is going to have to improve on EVERY area and fast.


Go ahead, dissect the entity known as Artie "Baby Zito" Munoz. I am all ears.Allow me to jump in here.......... First of all, the Munoz you saw against the Expos was not the Arnie Munoz I have seen pitch many times. If he threw like he did that night back in Birmingham, he'd have given up 10 runs there too! He just sucked that night. It had nothing to do with his stuff being good enough for AA but not for the Majors. He just sucked and would have gotten his tits lit on any professional field that night.

That said....... I still think Arnie's ultimate destination will be in the bullpen. That does not mean he is not a very good pitcher. His fastball is not dominant and location is vital to his success. His curveball, is good, but from I saw this year, he seemed to be throwing it a bit harder and with less of a break. I know he was throwing two different breaking pitches, but I never saw the big, sharp breaking curveball that I saw two years ago.

Confidence will be the key for Arnie. Daver referred to it in another thread when referring to Garland and he was dead on. When a pitcher deep down knows he can get hitters out, he is much more successful. When his confidence wanes a bit, he has a tendency to aim the ball more, not get full extension, lose velocity and therefore, get hir much harder. The mental part of what it takes to be a successful pitcher is difficult to understand. The grind of a long season and how it affects a pitcher both mentally and physically is difficult to understand. It is not as easy as looking at one or two outings and deciding the pitcher's future.

This is why I get so pisssed about the Sox 5th starter merry-go-round, but I'll not go off on that tangent now.

Holy crap, I think Daver and I are on the same page on this one. :o:

Gimm
08-11-2004, 01:38 AM
Allow me to jump in here.......... First of all, the Munoz you saw against the Expos was not the Arnie Munoz I have seen pitch many times. If he threw like he did that night back in Birmingham, he'd have given up 10 runs there too! He just sucked that night. It had nothing to do with his stuff being good enough for AA but not for the Majors. He just sucked and would have gotten his tits lit on any professional field that night.

That said....... I still think Arnie's ultimate destination will be in the bullpen. That does not mean he is not a very good pitcher. His fastball is not dominant and location is vital to his success. His curveball, is good, but from I saw this year, he seemed to be throwing it a bit harder and with less of a break. I know he was throwing two different breaking pitches, but I never saw the big, sharp breaking curveball that I saw two years ago.

Confidence will be the key for Arnie. Daver referred to it in another thread when referring to Garland and he was dead on. When a pitcher deep down knows he can get hitters out, he is much more successful. When his confidence wanes a bit, he has a tendency to aim the ball more, not get full extension, lose velocity and therefore, get hir much harder. The mental part of what it takes to be a successful pitcher is difficult to understand. The grind of a long season and how it affects a pitcher both mentally and physically is difficult to understand. It is not as easy as looking at one or two outings and deciding the pitcher's future.


Quality post there, Hudler. Input appreciated and well-taken.

The Tom
08-11-2004, 11:54 AM
What was your impression of Lumsden? Is there anything redeeming about him that you liked. Also what's your take on Sweeney's progression and development? Finally, how did Fields look on D and at the plate and what are your thoughts on a position change for him? (I know I've previously asked you about him changing to SS. That is pretty much based on seeing him play QB. I'm a bigger football guy then baseball, and he had a great arm and quick feet.)

jeremyb1
08-11-2004, 01:42 PM
I saw Sweeney against a couple of LH's and it seems like he lunges out over the plate and tries to smack the ball to LF against lefties. He wasn't really jumping at the ball too badly when he was facing a RH'er, and hit balls hard up the middle several times. Ton of plate coverage.

How well did Sweeney seem to work the count Randar? His walks have been up lately but they're still not very high.

jeremyb1
08-11-2004, 01:46 PM
Why shouldn't I? I could care less about excuses, just stating the obvious here. It's one thing to get "shelled" - see Grienke tonight - and quite another to literally not have ONE redeeming quality about you. Velocity, movement, control, deception....nada. If he's going to be a successful ML starter, he is going to have to improve on EVERY area and fast.

Go ahead, dissect the entity known as Artie "Baby Zito" Munoz. I am all ears.

I agree with Daver. You don't really deserve a response. You won't find a scout that will insist on evaluating a pitcher on one start, as the pitcher could've had an uncharacteristically bad day (which pitcher does appear to have redeeming qualities when getting hammered?) or an uncharacteristically good day. And you are not a scout, you're a fan watching the game. So not only is it ridiculous to insist on evaluating Munoz on one start, you're not particularly qualified to evaluate him either.

CWSGuy406
08-11-2004, 03:56 PM
You guys are really hard on Garland. I know it's frustrating seeing him go five excellent innings and then explode in the sixth, but, for fun, let's take the other number three starters in the AL - and compare them to Jon.


Oakland - Zito - 7-8, 4.84 ERA, 1.55 WHIP, 141.1 IP.

Anahiem - Washburn - 10-5, 4.83 ERA, 1.35 WHIP, 113.2 IP.

Texas - (I really don't know who to use from Texas, they've used 16 or so different starting pitchers this year, I really don't know which one is the number 3...)

Chicago - Garland - 8-8, 4.70 ERA, 1.31 WHIP, 153.1 IP.

Minnesota - Silva - 10-7, 4.21 ERA, 1.45 WHIP, 147.1 IP.

Cleveland - Westbrook - 10-5, 3.61 ERA, 1.27 WHIP, 147 IP.

New York - Mussina - 9-6, 5.20 ERA, 1.43 WHIP, 107.1 IP.

Boston - Lowe - 9-10, 5.50 ERA, 1.69 WHIP, 124.1 IP.


Add in the fact that Garland is actually our fourth starter, and - at the very least, Jon has logged very good innings for the Sox this year, and has taken pressure off the bullpen. And - if you take out the start vs. Philly, where he was basically asked to stay out there and 'take one for the team', his numbers are in line with what he did last year, and improving.

He's 24. A year younger than Buehrle. Give him time. He'll blossom, and right now, there's a lot of other teams that wish that Jon could be their number 3, I can guarantee you that...

Gimm
08-11-2004, 03:58 PM
I agree with Daver. You don't really deserve a response. .
Don't respond then.

Gimm
08-11-2004, 05:05 PM
..Cleveland - Westbrook - 10-5, 3.61 ERA, 1.27 WHIP, 147 IP.Westbrook is their co-ace with Sabathia, not a #3.

Their # 3 is Cliff Lee - 4.77 ERA, 1.50 WHIP.


Of course, Garland is gonna have to become a 3.50 ERA pitcher from now until the end of the season if Sox are to make up the 5-game defict in the standings. Expectations have shot WAY up after Maggs/Frank went down and the offense can no longer score 6 runs a game. No more excuses for Judy.

Daver
08-11-2004, 06:07 PM
Holy crap, I think Daver and I are on the same page on this one. :o:
Stranger things have happened Rex.


:)

RedPinStripes
08-11-2004, 09:45 PM
Quality post there, Hudler. Input appreciated and well-taken.That's a good way to admit that........... "You got SERVED!"

Gimm
08-11-2004, 10:06 PM
That's a good way to admit that........... "You got SERVED!"Who asked you, Maury? :)

RedPinStripes
08-12-2004, 03:26 PM
Who asked you, Maury? :)
Woah, another one knows me from the live days. :redneck

Rex Hudler
08-12-2004, 04:10 PM
McCarthy is now on his way to Birmingham. :D:

The Tom
08-12-2004, 04:27 PM
McCarthy is now on his way to Birmingham. :D:Is that confirmed or wishful (although very good) thinking?

Daver
08-12-2004, 04:32 PM
Is that confirmed or wishful (although very good) thinking?
Rex wouldn't post it if it was not confirmed.

The Tom
08-12-2004, 04:37 PM
Rex wouldn't post it if it was not confirmed.My bad, I didn't intend to accuse, i just wondered. I do see, though, that BMAC has been removed from W-S roster. What is wrong B Anderson.

MRKARNO
08-12-2004, 04:57 PM
McCarthy is now on his way to Birmingham. :D: :party::bandance::party::bandance::party:

Very good news!! I can't wait to see what he does there

Rex Hudler
08-12-2004, 08:38 PM
My bad, I didn't intend to accuse, i just wondered. I do see, though, that BMAC has been removed from W-S roster. What is wrong B Anderson.
No offense taken. That is a legit question. It is confirmed. Not sure what corresponding move Winston-Salem will make. Anderson has been a little under the weather. He's fine. They are also trying to rest a few guys, to stay fresh for the playoffs.

Chisoxfn
08-12-2004, 08:39 PM
Why shouldn't I? I could care less about excuses, just stating the obvious here. It's one thing to get "shelled" - see Grienke tonight - and quite another to literally not have ONE redeeming quality about you. Velocity, movement, control, deception....nada. If he's going to be a successful ML starter, he is going to have to improve on EVERY area and fast.


Go ahead, dissect the entity known as Artie "Baby Zito" Munoz. I am all ears. Watch the futures game. He may not of been great in it, but he flashed off one of his really nice curves as well as a really nice slider.

Chisoxfn
08-12-2004, 08:45 PM
No offense taken. That is a legit question. It is confirmed. Not sure what corresponding move Winston-Salem will make. Anderson has been a little under the weather. He's fine. They are also trying to rest a few guys, to stay fresh for the playoffs. I'm guessing this means no more starts for Bull. I'm wondering who jumps into the rotation in WS as well.

I liked your line of thinking in regards to Ulacia or someone getting promoted to Charlotte.

Rex Hudler
08-13-2004, 12:17 AM
I'm guessing this means no more starts for Bull. I'm wondering who jumps into the rotation in WS as well.

I liked your line of thinking in regards to Ulacia or someone getting promoted to Charlotte.
Turns out it was McNichol that was promoted. Was that already mentioned?