PDA

View Full Version : My view on KW


balboner
08-05-2004, 08:01 PM
I'm sure this is likely to get the annoying "This Thread Sucks" post, but I really think that KW should be fired after this season, assuming the Sox don't make the playoffs. The main reason that he should be fired is that he has not produced a playoff team since he took over after the 2000 season. Yes, the team has choked on more than one occasion, but he has continued to stick to the same pattern of having streaky, homer hitting players. The Twins have proven that they can beat this type of team, but KW hasn't learned his lesson. Not only that, but think about all the prospects that KW has traded the last few years. With all these solid to good prospects being traded, one would think that the Sox would have a better talent level than they do right now. If someone told me last year that we would have traded Reed, Olivo, Rauch, Francisco, Rupe, and Webster, I would have thought that the Sox would have been a loaded team. KW has also made some foolish decisions when it comes to judging players. SS should have never been viewed as a starting pitcher. Borchard being valued over Reed looks to be a dumb decision. And sticking with Koch for as long as they did was also stupid. Fire away, but think about this when the Sox are sitting at home come playoff time again.

MONEYBALL21
08-05-2004, 08:21 PM
I totally agree he has gotta go. He's made some good moves(Marte, Shingo, and Colon) but his bad moves have out weighed his good moves. That means its time for a new GM.(hopefully a Billy Beane assistant)

Cerberus-WG
08-05-2004, 08:24 PM
I totally agree he has gotta go. He's made some good moves(Marte, Shingo, and Colon) but his bad moves have out weighed his good moves. That means its time for a new GM.(hopefully a Billy Beane assistant)
I want you to prove to me that you know at least something about metrics before you go spouting off how Billy Beane is the next coming. And you shouldn't call them a "Billy Beane" assistant, it goes to Bill James, end of story.

MONEYBALL21
08-05-2004, 08:34 PM
I want you to prove to me that you know at least something about metrics before you go spouting off how Billy Beane is the next coming. And you shouldn't call them a "Billy Beane" assistant, it goes to Bill James, end of story.
Billy Beane-ball is only on the field... Its about finding undervalued talent and getting the best players for the least ammount of $$$. Being that "moneyball players" are slow fat and average fielders at best, the best way to play with those type of players is to play "sabermetricly". Why would you want to be a team that bunts and steals with players like Hatteberg, Durazo and Chavez? You dont. Sabermetric baseball is what works best with the team the A's have put together and small ball works for teams like the Twinkies. With the limited payroll the sox have I think they would benefit from it.

Flight #24
08-05-2004, 08:49 PM
I'm sure this is likely to get the annoying "This Thread Sucks" post, but I really think that KW should be fired after this season, assuming the Sox don't make the playoffs. The main reason that he should be fired is that he has not produced a playoff team since he took over after the 2000 season. Yes, the team has choked on more than one occasion, but he has continued to stick to the same pattern of having streaky, homer hitting players. The Twins have proven that they can beat this type of team, but KW hasn't learned his lesson. Not only that, but think about all the prospects that KW has traded the last few years. With all these solid to good prospects being traded, one would think that the Sox would have a better talent level than they do right now. If someone told me last year that we would have traded Reed, Olivo, Rauch, Francisco, Rupe, and Webster, I would have thought that the Sox would have been a loaded team. KW has also made some foolish decisions when it comes to judging players. SS should have never been viewed as a starting pitcher. Borchard being valued over Reed looks to be a dumb decision. And sticking with Koch for as long as they did was also stupid. Fire away, but think about this when the Sox are sitting at home come playoff time again.
You're 100% right. It's all KW's fault. He traded those guys and didn't get a "loaded" team that could pitch well AND be one of the top scoring in all of baseball......oh wait - they were, until Frank & Maggs got hurt. But Garcia-Buehrle-ELo-Garland & ARow-Thomas-Maggs-Lee-Konerko, that's not a "loaded" team.

So......it's KW's fault because they didn't have enough depth and backup all-stars.......oh wait - no team short of a $90-100+mil payroll has both those kinds of stars and that kind of quality depth.

So.....It's KW's fault for "valuing Borchard and trading Reed"......oh wait - Seattle didn't want Borchard, they wanted Reed.

So...,It's KW's fault for "trading away all those prospects"........oh wait - none of them have done anything, and outside of Reed & Olivo, none really project to for at least 3 years.

KW has made mistakes in past years (Ritchie, Koch), he's also made some good moves (Marte, Shingo, ELo, Olivo, etc.). This year he made pretty much all good moves - Shoney & MJ being the possible exceptions. Not his fault that his loaded team lost their best 2 players who also happen to be 2 of the best in the game.

inta
08-05-2004, 08:52 PM
KW can take a hike for all i care now.

he got lucky with shingo and loaiza last year, but annihilating our farm system while keeping this core of losers is just assinine.

fire him... after unloading everyone else.

balboner
08-05-2004, 08:58 PM
You're 100% right. It's all KW's fault. He traded those guys and didn't get a "loaded" team that could pitch well AND be one of the top scoring in all of baseball......oh wait - they were, until Frank & Maggs got hurt. But Garcia-Buehrle-ELo-Garland & ARow-Thomas-Maggs-Lee-Konerko, that's not a "loaded" team.

So......it's KW's fault because they didn't have enough depth and backup all-stars.......oh wait - no team short of a $90-100+mil payroll has both those kinds of stars and that kind of quality depth.

So.....It's KW's fault for "valuing Borchard and trading Reed"......oh wait - Seattle didn't want Borchard, they wanted Reed.

So...,It's KW's fault for "trading away all those prospects"........oh wait - none of them have done anything, and outside of Reed & Olivo, none really project to for at least 3 years.

KW has made mistakes in past years (Ritchie, Koch), he's also made some good moves (Marte, Shingo, ELo, Olivo, etc.). This year he made pretty much all good moves - Shoney & MJ being the possible exceptions. Not his fault that his loaded team lost their best 2 players who also happen to be 2 of the best in the game.

I'm pretty sure that KW said that the Mariners wanted Borchard, but he was more willing to give up Reed. Also, if you consider this team one of the best pitching teams in baseball, I don't want to know what you would say about the A's or Cubs. This entire year, we've had, at the most, 3 starting pitchers on an effective run. And lets not talk about some of the crap we have in the bullpen. One of the prospects we gave up, Francisco, was called one of the top 3 power relievers in baseball today by Gammons.

Flight #24
08-05-2004, 09:18 PM
I'm pretty sure that KW said that the Mariners wanted Borchard, but he was more willing to give up Reed. Also, if you consider this team one of the best pitching teams in baseball, I don't want to know what you would say about the A's or Cubs. This entire year, we've had, at the most, 3 starting pitchers on an effective run. And lets not talk about some of the crap we have in the bullpen. One of the prospects we gave up, Francisco, was called one of the top 3 power relievers in baseball today by Gammons.
Actually no. It was Crede the Mariners wanted along with Olivo. When he tried to get them to take a prospect instead of someone off the big league roster, they only wanted Reed.

I'd say a rotation of Garcia-Buehrle-Garland-Loaiza backed by the offense we should have had would be a powerhouse, yes. The A's have better pitching, but we'd have a much better offense. Cubs have better pitching, but again - until they got Nomar we'd have a much better offense. And you eliminating the top 2 pitching staffs in all of baseball doesn't mean the Sox didn't have a very good rotation.

Yeah, Francisco and his 1.34 WHIP and 3.66ERA are pretty impressive. But he gets a lot of Ks, right. Like another reliever who had a year with a 1.28WHIP / 3.28ERA / 1K/IP - Billy Koch. Oh, but the great Peter Gammons thinks he's awesome, that clinches it.

balboner
08-05-2004, 09:33 PM
The fact that Francisco's rookie numbers are comparable to Koch's best season is a compliment to him. At one time, Koch was actually considered a good pitcher. I can't argue with you that our team should have been good, but that is true for the last few years. KW hasn't learned from the last few seasons, and continues to field the same type of team each year against a Twins team that seems to be getting better over time.

Flight #24
08-05-2004, 09:36 PM
The fact that Francisco's rookie numbers are comparable to Koch's best season is a compliment to him. At one time, Koch was actually considered a good pitcher. I can't argue with you that our team should have been good, but that is true for the last few years. KW hasn't learned from the last few seasons, and continues to field the same type of team each year against a Twins team that seems to be getting better over time.
The problems with this years team are nothing like those of last years or previous years. This team had much better pitching, improved defense, and should have had a much more solid bench (had the bench players not been pressed into service as regulars). That's a testament to KW. Injuries are not his fault.

balboner
08-05-2004, 09:45 PM
In my opinion, the biggest problem that this team has had the last few years is that there are too many hitters swinging for the fences, and when you face good teams, it becomes a lot harder to score runs on a consistant basis. How many times have the Twins beat us cause they get an infield single, stolen base, sac bunt, and sac fly? Meanwhile, Jose, Carlos, PK, Frank, and Maggs are great some games, but struggle mightily it seems down the stretch each year.

CarlosMay'sThumb
08-05-2004, 09:56 PM
The problems with this years team are nothing like those of last years or previous years. This team had much better pitching, improved defense, and should have had a much more solid bench (had the bench players not been pressed into service as regulars). That's a testament to KW. Injuries are not his fault.
This team had much better pitching? Buerhle, Loaiza, Garland, Schoenweiss and nobody is a lousy pitching staff. It's not OK, it's bad. Loaiza had one good year - he was iffy at number 2. Garland is a 4 and nobody would even have Schoenweiss on their starting pitching staff anywhere. How many years in a row have the Sox not had a #5 starter? The fact is the Sox had no 3 and no 5 starters. This is entirely KW's fault - and he should be gone because of it.

Everybody knew Koch sucked but KW made the awful trade and was forced to stick with it this year. Uribe for Miles was a bad trade that I would take back in a heartbeat. Trading 5 players for Everett over 2 years is idiotic. Now we get Alomar again. Moving Harris now, either to the bench or the outfield, after the season is over is idiotic too.

Please JR, fire KW tomorrow.

pczarapa
08-05-2004, 10:07 PM
You're 100% right. It's all KW's fault. He traded those guys and didn't get a "loaded" team that could pitch well AND be one of the top scoring in all of baseball......oh wait - they were, until Frank & Maggs got hurt. But Garcia-Buehrle-ELo-Garland & ARow-Thomas-Maggs-Lee-Konerko, that's not a "loaded" team.

So......it's KW's fault because they didn't have enough depth and backup all-stars.......oh wait - no team short of a $90-100+mil payroll has both those kinds of stars and that kind of quality depth.

So.....It's KW's fault for "valuing Borchard and trading Reed"......oh wait - Seattle didn't want Borchard, they wanted Reed.

So...,It's KW's fault for "trading away all those prospects"........oh wait - none of them have done anything, and outside of Reed & Olivo, none really project to for at least 3 years.

KW has made mistakes in past years (Ritchie, Koch), he's also made some good moves (Marte, Shingo, ELo, Olivo, etc.). This year he made pretty much all good moves - Shoney & MJ being the possible exceptions. Not his fault that his loaded team lost their best 2 players who also happen to be 2 of the best in the game.
Well said, if Maggs and Frank were still playing people would be casting golden statues of KW. I understand people being frustrated but hell, this team lost their top 2 hitters, no team can withstand that. At least KW went out and got Alomar, I really think he'll at least do what a leadoff man should and allow Rowand to get some more RBI opportunities batting a little lower in the order. I'm not folding up the tent yet.

jordan23ventura
08-05-2004, 10:21 PM
This team had much better pitching? Buerhle, Loaiza, Garland, Schoenweiss and nobody is a lousy pitching staff. It's not OK, it's bad. Loaiza had one good year - he was iffy at number 2. Garland is a 4 and nobody would even have Schoenweiss on their starting pitching staff anywhere. How many years in a row have the Sox not had a #5 starter? The fact is the Sox had no 3 and no 5 starters. This is entirely KW's fault - and he should be gone because of it.

Everybody knew Koch sucked but KW made the awful trade and was forced to stick with it this year. Uribe for Miles was a bad trade that I would take back in a heartbeat. Trading 5 players for Everett over 2 years is idiotic. Now we get Alomar again. Moving Harris now, either to the bench or the outfield, after the season is over is idiotic too.

Please JR, fire KW tomorrow.
He's comparing the pitching staff to recent years. Buehrle/Garcia/Contreras/Garland/? is better right now than what we would have if we kept Colon and Loazia. I am much more confident in the rotation as it stands now than before. Last year's bullpen was leaps and bounds better when you factor in the dropping of Rick "The Fat Thing" White and the additions of Sullivan and Schoenweis.

bafiarocks03
08-05-2004, 10:24 PM
i cannot agree more with you guys...i think he need to go too!!:bandance:

OEO Magglio
08-05-2004, 10:31 PM
he got lucky with shingo and loaiza last year

:rolleyes:

You asked for it balboner
:threadsucks

fquaye149
08-05-2004, 10:32 PM
i'm sick of this. a lot of armchair Gm's who cast off KW's good moves as "luck" and say each one that didn't work out are STUPID. maybe the bad moves were stupid. . .and there were some that are unquestionably stupid. But to hear one person said shingo was LUCK? The only luck there is that he wanted to come to our squad.

ChiSox14305635
08-05-2004, 10:39 PM
The way some of you go on about this "Fire KW" crap makes you sound like a bunch of bitter old women. If he doesn't make any moves, you whine how he doesn't have his eye on the postseason. When he actually has to move some prospects, you whine how he's gutting the farm system. I'd like to see some of you try to acquire a Freddy Garcia by using the likes of Ross Gload, Aaron McNeal, & Tetsu Yofu as bait. Seattle's GM would've laughed in your face. When Carl Everett is putting up good numbers with the Rangers, do you think John Hart is just gonna say "Sure, we'll trade him........for Tony Graffanino, Ruddy Yan & a few Single-A guys". KW is in a Catch-22 with some of you. He's damned if he does, and damned if he doesn't.