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Fenway
08-05-2004, 11:17 AM
I find it interesting that in 1920 the Red Sox tried to trade Babe Ruth to the White Sox for Joe Jackson, but Comiskey said no.

http://redsoxnation.net/forum/index.php?act=Attach&type=post&id=221

Baby Fisk
08-05-2004, 11:19 AM
Thanks Fenway. This really puts our current opportunities in perspective. We'd better get on the damn phone and make a move for Robbie Alomar! :cool:

Iguana775
08-05-2004, 11:21 AM
Thanks Fenway. This really puts our current opportunities in perspective. We'd better get on the damn phone and make a move for Robbie Alomar! :cool:
god forbid someone actually post something that people would find interesting...

Deadguy
08-05-2004, 11:28 AM
FWIW, Frazee was a native of Peoria, and sold Ruth in order to fund the production of a few plays.

Interesting that even back then, they were referring to Ruth as "The greatest hitter who ever lived". If they thought his 1919 season was spectacular, which it was, I can only imagine what him hitting 50+ homers the next season must have seemed like to the rest of the baseball world. Before the season, Ruth predicted that he would hit 50 homers that year.

KingXerxes
08-05-2004, 11:30 AM
I find it interesting that in 1920 the Red Sox tried to trade Babe Ruth to the White Sox for Joe Jackson, but Comiskey said no.

http://redsoxnation.net/forum/index.php?act=Attach&type=post&id=221I have to be honest with you, I think Frazee is full of crap in that article. It sounds to me like he was pulling out all stops in order to justify an outright sale of Ruth. Conventional wisdom these days says he sold Ruth only to get his hands on cash to fund the Broadway play No No Nanette.

Funny though, after reading it you realize how little has changed over the years.

Fenway
08-05-2004, 11:45 AM
I have to be honest with you, I think Frazee is full of crap in that article. It sounds to me like he was pulling out all stops in order to justify an outright sale of Ruth. Conventional wisdom these days says he sold Ruth only to get his hands on cash to fund the Broadway play No No Nanette.
No No Nanette is an urban legend according to Red Sox historians as the play wasn't produced until 1924

RSN: In RSC you estimate that the $250,000 Tom Yawkey paid for Joe Cronin would be equal to $37,500,000 in 1999 dollars. Given this, just how wealthy was Tom Yawkey? And using the same formula, did Harry Frazee really have any choice not to accept Ruppertís offer to buy Ruth?

(IMG:http://sportsmed.starwave.com/media/mlb/2002/0717/photo/i_frazee_hi.jpg (http://sportsmed.starwave.com/media/mlb/2002/0717/photo/i_frazee_hi.jpg))
Harry Frazee, center, with two stars from the 1918 Red Sox, Stuffy McInnis (left) and Jack Barry.

GS: Just to be clear, thatís when compared as a percentage of the national GNP, rather than cost of living, but still an accepted way to measure wealth. Itís a good question, but since Frazee wasnít broke, he didnít absolutely need to sell for financial reasons, but the sale served purposes beyond the financial as well, particularly in regard to his long complicated political war with the powers that be in the American League. The whole sale, as outlined in RSC, is far more complicated. You have to understand that Frazee was already a millionaire, already a success.
http://redsoxnation.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=3243

Here is a link to all the articles concerning the Ruth sale, and yes not much has changed

http://redsoxnation.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=8601

Johnny Mostil
08-05-2004, 12:34 PM
I find it interesting that in 1920 the Red Sox tried to trade Babe Ruth to the White Sox for Joe Jackson, but Comiskey said no.

http://redsoxnation.net/forum/index.php?act=Attach&type=post&id=221What am I missing? I didn't see anything about Jackson in the linked article.

Deadguy
08-05-2004, 12:38 PM
What am I missing? I didn't see anything about Jackson in the linked article.
Bottom of the third paragraph, under "Frazee Discusses Sale".

Erik The Red
08-05-2004, 01:40 PM
I find it interesting that in 1920 the Red Sox tried to trade Babe Ruth to the White Sox for Joe Jackson, but Comiskey said no.

http://redsoxnation.net/forum/index.php?act=Attach&type=post&id=221 Maybe the Carmines should have asked for Eddie Cicotte and Buck Weaver, too. That would have sealed the deal.

Johnny Mostil
08-05-2004, 01:41 PM
Bottom of the third paragraph, under "Frazee Discusses Sale".
D'OH! Thanks.

fquaye149
08-05-2004, 02:03 PM
haha, first we turn down ruth, then later we turn down bonds for belle...

all we need now is the revelation that we didn't want hammerin' hank and we have the trifecta of bad non-moves :)

Fenway
08-05-2004, 02:05 PM
Maybe the Carmines should have asked for Eddie Cicotte and Buck Weaver, too. That would have sealed the deal.
If Frazee was telling the truth and this deal had been made it certainly would have changed baseball in a number of ways.

Erik The Red
08-05-2004, 02:08 PM
I really, REALLY doubt this deal would have happened in 1920. In fact, I can pretty much guarantee it.

Foulke29
08-05-2004, 02:15 PM
haha, first we turn down ruth, then later we turn down bonds for belle...

You do realize that if we had signed Bonds, he would have ended up going to Baltimore and discovered that he had a rare hip disease...

It's true Frazee says so.

:dtroll:

Deadguy
08-05-2004, 02:18 PM
haha, first we turn down ruth, then later we turn down bonds for belle...

all we need now is the revelation that we didn't want hammerin' hank and we have the trifecta of bad non-moves :)
Don't forget Navarro over Clemens. That move singlehandley set us back a few years.

Fenway
08-05-2004, 02:41 PM
I really, REALLY doubt this deal would have happened in 1920. In fact, I can pretty much guarantee it.
Look at the timeframe.

This would be 3 months after the 1919 World Series and by then Comiskey knew trouble was ahead. Fan uproar in both cities would be muted as on paper it was almost a wash.

sendimjoey
08-05-2004, 02:45 PM
Don't forget Navarro over Clemens. That move singlehandley set us back a few years.
Shoot, the Sox would have been WAY better off if they had just re-signed Kevin Tapani than Navarro -- more an indictment of Navarro than praise for Tapani, but still.

Erik The Red
08-05-2004, 02:45 PM
Look at the timeframe.

This would be 3 months after the 1919 World Series and by then Comiskey knew trouble was ahead. Fan uproar in both cities would be muted as on paper it was almost a wash. I just doubt very seriously that the Red Sox would have tried to acquire someone who was about to go on trial for throwing the World Series, that's all.

Fenway
08-05-2004, 02:56 PM
It hadn't become public knowledge yet.


In September 1920, a Cook County, Illinois, grand jury convened to look into allegations that the Chicago Cubs had thrown games against the Philadelphia Phillies. The investigation soon extended to the 1919 World Series and baseball gambling in general. The White Sox were enjoying a good season when the grand jury began calling players, owners, managers, writers, and gamblers to testify about what had happened the previous year. At the urging of Comiskey, who was trying to cover up his own knowledge of the conspiracy, Jackson and Cicotte were the first to admit everything they knew about the fix.




I just doubt very seriously that the Red Sox would have tried to acquire someone who was about to go on trial for throwing the World Series, that's all.

FightingBillini
08-05-2004, 03:03 PM
:moron
"This just goes to show once again the ineptitude of the minor league team playing on the south side of Chicago. Even from the beginning, they were cheap and didnt do what it took to win. Joe Jackson was nothing, I would trade him for Babe Ruth in a heartbeat. Jackson didnt even play after 1920, it would have been a steal!"

MisterB
08-05-2004, 03:06 PM
Two points:

1) Frazee was spinning the deal in that article. He had two serious offers for Ruth, one was the Yanks $125,000 straight up and Comiskey's offer of Joe Jackson and (i think) $75,000. Frazee needed the cash and took the Yanks' offer.
2) The Ruth sale was NOT to finance 'No No Nanette'. Frazee had plenty of backers for his Broadway productions and didn't mix them with his Red Sox dealings. He needed the cash to fight a series of lawsuits against AL President Ban Johnson. Johnson had no love of Frazee, Comiskey or Yanks owner Ruppert, and kept trying (unsuccessfully) to squeeze them out.

Fenway
08-05-2004, 04:08 PM
more important the Yankees also gave Frazee a "loan" of $350,000. Col Ruppert then held the note on Fenway Park and the loan was not repaid until Tom Yawkey found out about it and paid the Yankees back.

Because of this the Yankees almost moved to Boston.

http://espn.go.com/mlb/s/2002/0718/1407265.html

Two points:

1) Frazee was spinning the deal in that article. He had two serious offers for Ruth, one was the Yanks $125,000 straight up and Comiskey's offer of Joe Jackson and (i think) $75,000. Frazee needed the cash and took the Yanks' offer.
2) The Ruth sale was NOT to finance 'No No Nanette'. Frazee had plenty of backers for his Broadway productions and didn't mix them with his Red Sox dealings. He needed the cash to fight a series of lawsuits against AL President Ban Johnson. Johnson had no love of Frazee, Comiskey or Yanks owner Ruppert, and kept trying (unsuccessfully) to squeeze them out.

soxwon
08-05-2004, 04:37 PM
:threadsucks
WHO CARES THAT WAS 50 years ago.

FightingBillini
08-05-2004, 04:52 PM
:threadsucks
WHO CARES THAT WAS 50 years ago.
50 years, 84 years. Close enough.

RKMeibalane
08-05-2004, 05:17 PM
50 years, 84 years. Close enough.
It's nice to know that WSI users understand math.

batmanZoSo
08-05-2004, 05:22 PM
We had a crack at the 83 World Series. We had a crack at the 93 World Series. We had a crack at the 94 World Series. We had a crack at a lot of things and failed each time. This is just another reason why we haven't won a World Series since 1917.

Foulke29
08-06-2004, 10:15 AM
It's nice to know that WSI users understand math.
Most Sox fans don't understand math - otherwise, they'd realize that this team which needs to play .800 ball the rest of the season just to catch Minn - IF they play .500 ball) is farther away from winning the division then when Uncie Jerry put up the White Flag trade.

Foulke29
08-06-2004, 10:16 AM
We had a crack at the 83 World Series. We had a crack at the 93 World Series. We had a crack at the 94 World Series. We had a crack at a lot of things and failed each time. This is just another reason why we haven't won a World Series since 1917.
Crack just might help out badly I feel about this Sox season!:whiner: