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gosox41
08-05-2004, 08:30 AM
A. Did the 2004 Sox just quit on the season after Magglio and Frank were injured

or

B. Do they truly lack the depth and talent to be anywhere near a contending team without these two guys.

I'm going with option A. It would have been difficult to contend for any team to lose their 2 best hitters but this team has fallen way too far way too fast. KW has done a lousy job building any depth on this team, but I think if this team didn't have that 'loser mentality' they wouldn't have had let things get this bad this fast.


Bob

owensmouth
08-05-2004, 08:32 AM
Does this team of June and July remind you of last years April, May and June?

gosox41
08-05-2004, 08:35 AM
Does this team of June and July remind you of last years April, May and June?

Very much so. Too much swinging for the long ball and inability to execute basic plays like hitting sacrafice flies and bunting.



Bob

Jjav829
08-05-2004, 08:36 AM
A. Did the 2004 Sox just quit on the season after Magglio and Frank were injured

or

B. Do they truly lack the depth and talent to be anywhere near a contending team without these two guys.

I'm going with option A. It would have been difficult to contend for any team to lose their 2 best hitters but this team has fallen way too far way too fast. KW has done a lousy job building any depth on this team, but I think if this team didn't have that 'loser mentality' they wouldn't have had let things get this bad this fast.


Bob
What do you consider depth? Find a team that has a .300/30/100 guy just sitting around on the bench waiting for an injury to occur. There are none. You can build teams with a good bench, but there just isn't a way to store away a 30/100 guy in case of an injury. If the guys on the bench were that good, they'd either be playing or be traded for help at another position.

joeynach
08-05-2004, 08:37 AM
A. Did the 2004 Sox just quit on the season after Magglio and Frank were injured

or

B. Do they truly lack the depth and talent to be anywhere near a contending team without these two guys.

I'm going with option A. It would have been difficult to contend for any team to lose their 2 best hitters but this team has fallen way too far way too fast. KW has done a lousy job building any depth on this team, but I think if this team didn't have that 'loser mentality' they wouldn't have had let things get this bad this fast.


Bob
I would go with B. I think this offseason was one of the worst for the sox and now its starting to show. We weren't able to sign anyone and lost our players that had been filling our holes. KW was handicapped by our baby budget and i think he knew he couldn't really add depth. I got this eeire "i hope" feeling coming from KW in the offseason as if he knows this team has problems but he hopes something clicks and they play over there heads. It was a miracle we were 7 or 8 over .500 at the break with all that has gone one. Its now apparent to us an management what this team really needs. Solids players, not gambles, speed, quality arms, and depth.

soxtalker
08-05-2004, 08:44 AM
A. Did the 2004 Sox just quit on the season after Magglio and Frank were injured

or

B. Do they truly lack the depth and talent to be anywhere near a contending team without these two guys.

I'm going with option A. It would have been difficult to contend for any team to lose their 2 best hitters but this team has fallen way too far way too fast. KW has done a lousy job building any depth on this team, but I think if this team didn't have that 'loser mentality' they wouldn't have had let things get this bad this fast.


Bob
I'll vote for option B. The Sox struggled to stay ahead of the Twins earlier. Many of the problems then were attributable to the pitching. However, the hitting has really dropped off since Frank and Maggs have been injured. Frank was getting on base about once every two at-bats. In addition to getting on base more often than others, he and Maggs both protected others in the batting order. If you are an opposing pitcher, it is much easier to attack the current line up.

gosox41
08-05-2004, 08:44 AM
I would go with B. I think this offseason was one of the worst for the sox and now its starting to show. We weren't able to sign anyone and lost our players that had been filling our holes. KW was handicapped by our baby budget and i think he knew he couldn't really add depth. I got this eeire "i hope" feeling coming from KW in the offseason as if he knows this team has problems but he hopes something clicks and they play over there heads. It was a miracle we were 7 or 8 over .500 at the break with all that has gone one. Its now apparent to us an management what this team really needs. Solids players, not gambles, speed, quality arms, and depth.
But isn't it KW who put the Sox in this siutation with bad contracts. I mean who:

1. Signed PK for over $ 8 mill per year
2. Traded for Koch and then immediately signed him to an extension paying him Keith Foulke money
3. Voluntarily picked up Valentin's option
4. Signed Schonewies to a $2 mil contract after admittedly chasing him for 2 years
5. Traded for a head case in Jose Contreras. The jury is still out on him but the Sox are paying $14 mill. over 2+ years for a head case.


THese moves (and others) will inhibit flexibility in a lot of budgets.


Bob

JRIG
08-05-2004, 08:49 AM
It's Option B.

Harris, Uribe, Crede, Gload, Perez, Burke, Alomar, Borchard. If you think we should still be competing with these guys getting major playing time, you're wrong. This team has no depth at all at the major or minor league level.

gosox41
08-05-2004, 08:52 AM
It's Option B.

Harris, Uribe, Crede, Gload, Perez, Burke, Alomar, Borchard. If you think we should still be competing with these guys getting major playing time, you're wrong. This team has no depth at all at the major or minor league level.

Funny how all the names you mentioned above, except for Crede, were brought in by the great Kenny Williams.

After reading the boards here, I thought he was a good GM.

There were a lot of people who want him back next season in a recent poll. Why??


Bob

Kilroy
08-05-2004, 09:01 AM
A. Did the 2004 Sox just quit on the season after Magglio and Frank were injured

or

B. Do they truly lack the depth and talent to be anywhere near a contending team without these two guys.
I'm going with B. Frank and Maggs are both much more important than we give them credit for. Both are superstar caliber. The offense is built around them. Add in CLee and Konerko who can range anywhere from above average to all-star, and then the rest are just role players.

The best analogy I can come up with for losing Frank and Maggs would be for a person to lose both of their thumbs. You still have hands, but they just don't work that well anymore.

SoxFan76
08-05-2004, 09:01 AM
[QUOTE=gosox41 KW has done a lousy job building any depth on this team, but I think if this team didn't have that 'loser mentality' they wouldn't have had let things get this bad this fast.


Bob[/QUOTE]
Hmm, I would have to strongly disagree with you there. Timo, Gload, Alomar, Uribe sounds like a good bench to me. Unfortunately, things happen. You can't expect a couple all stars to just hop off the bench when a big name player goes down.

infohawk
08-05-2004, 09:29 AM
A. Did the 2004 Sox just quit on the season after Magglio and Frank were injured

or

B. Do they truly lack the depth and talent to be anywhere near a contending team without these two guys.

I'm going with option A. It would have been difficult to contend for any team to lose their 2 best hitters but this team has fallen way too far way too fast. KW has done a lousy job building any depth on this team, but I think if this team didn't have that 'loser mentality' they wouldn't have had let things get this bad this fast.


Bob
I'd have to go with option B because of the type of baseball the Sox have been built to play. The team is built on slugging, which in my opinion is what makes them so streaky. Case in point, a 12-4 victory one day and an 11-0 loss the next. This is a more extreme example, but nevertheless demonstrates the problems inherent with a team built around power hitters. The problem of consistency is magnified when a slugging team loses two of it's premier sluggers for an extended period. It's asking an awful lot of this team to expect them to just "pivot" and begin manufacturing runs. They don't have the personnel to be successful playing smallball. I could be mistaken, but I fully expect KW to shed some payroll by not re-signing Maggs and Valentin and use the money to acquire one more quality starter and some contact hitters. I also wouldn't be surprised if one of Lee or Konerko is traded for a player or players the Sox really need. The Sox will probably keep Crede for his defense, but may package him in a trade if the right deal comes along. I'm not ready to completely give up on Crede offensively, but I am beginning to have significant reservations.

On the bright side, I think the Sox are assembling a pretty good rotation. One more trade or free agent signing could give them a dominant rotation with considerable depth. Next year may be the first year in some time that the Sox won't have a fifth starter issue. Also, the Sox should have some money to spend for next year and should have a busy offseason.

gosox41
08-05-2004, 09:33 AM
[QUOTE=gosox41 KW has done a lousy job building any depth on this team, but I think if this team didn't have that 'loser mentality' they wouldn't have had let things get this bad this fast.


BobHmm, I would have to strongly disagree with you there. Timo, Gload, Alomar, Uribe sounds like a good bench to me. Unfortunately, things happen. You can't expect a couple all stars to just hop off the bench when a big name player goes down.[/QUOTE]
They are all good bench players. When is KW going to fill some of the other holes on this team. How about some decent everyday players at 2B, SS, 3B, and next season most likely RF.

The problem is that when Ordonez got hurt the first time the Sox answer was to call up a third catcher and platoon TImo and GLoad in RF (with Rowand) Instead of giving Borchard (or Reed) at the time a shot the Sox stuck a below average hitter in their line up while calling up another below average hitter in Burke. I know what Perez and Gload can (or should I say can't do) I would have liked to at least seen Reed/Brochard at the time.

Also, add Harris to your list of bench players. So the Sox have been platooning Harris and Uribe all year on some level. I'd love to have a good everyday second baseman.

KW made good moves getting these role players, but to expect them to succeed on an everyday basis is ridiculous. And they have proven me right. They're overmatched. This is where having any sort of farm system would come in handy.

I certainly don't expect stars to replace Ordonez and Thomas, but I was hoping for more then guys with a .650 OPS.


Bob

MRKARNO
08-05-2004, 09:37 AM
But isn't it KW who put the Sox in this siutation with bad contracts. I mean who:

1. Signed PK for over $ 8 mill per year
2. Traded for Koch and then immediately signed him to an extension paying him Keith Foulke money
3. Voluntarily picked up Valentin's option
4. Signed Schonewies to a $2 mil contract after admittedly chasing him for 2 years
5. Traded for a head case in Jose Contreras. The jury is still out on him but the Sox are paying $14 mill. over 2+ years for a head case.


THese moves (and others) will inhibit flexibility in a lot of budgets.


Bob
1. Obviously PK wasn't worth anything last year, but you dont think he earned his contract this year? Every team has bad contracts and I don't classify PK's as one of the worse ones.
2. Bad move, I totally agree
3. We didnt have any other options and for the first three months of the year Valentin was a valuable part of our team who provided good defense, a mediocre average and a very high slugging percentage. Now that he has one terrible month, everyone wants his head. If we didnt do that he'dve probably signed somewhere else and Juan Uribe would be our everyday SS
4. Bad move which I criticized from the start
5. No one ever said headcases cant have success. Look across town to Carlos Zambrano who has like a 3 ERA. Contreras actually might go places while Loaiza is just a piece of crap. Now we have 4/5 of the starting rotation in tact and we wont have to start the year with the Danny Wrights of the World and the Scott Schoenweis's of the world both in the back of our rotation

CubsSuckMySox182
08-05-2004, 09:40 AM
A. Did the 2004 Sox just quit on the season after Magglio and Frank were injured

or

B. Do they truly lack the depth and talent to be anywhere near a contending team without these two guys.

I'm going with option A. It would have been difficult to contend for any team to lose their 2 best hitters but this team has fallen way too far way too fast. KW has done a lousy job building any depth on this team, but I think if this team didn't have that 'loser mentality' they wouldn't have had let things get this bad this fast.


Bob
Hmm, well I don't know that I'd choose either. Both of those seem to be complete extremes with no medium between them. Sure the Sox lost some of their "zest" after losing our best hitters, but I do think they should have been able to get it done anyway. We have a great team, but I am just seeing alot of slacking off. I was extremely hopeful toward the beginning of this season, but I don't know what to think anymore. With the team and manager we have, we should be at least 10 games in first. This is the time the Sox need to step it up, and if they can't/won't...it looks like it'll be just another disappointing year.

owensmouth
08-05-2004, 09:42 AM
I believe the actual cost for Contraras is about 4 million per year. The Yankees are paying a one million a year signing bonus for the next couple of years.

infohawk
08-05-2004, 09:47 AM
It's Option B.

Harris, Uribe, Crede, Gload, Perez, Burke, Alomar, Borchard. If you think we should still be competing with these guys getting major playing time, you're wrong. This team has no depth at all at the major or minor league level.
If you mean "bench" when you say "depth" I actually think the Sox have the makings of an effective bench. Remember, the idea of a bench is for a team to have players that can relieve starters on occasion for short durations (minor injuries and rest) and to enter games in certain situations (late inning pitching match-ups or defensive substitutions). I think that Burke, Gload, Perez and Uribe are pretty solid in that respect. The problem is that they have all been given extended playing time because of the injuries to Frank and Magglio.

If when you say "depth" you mean plugging in a player from the bench or minor league system without experiencing any loss of production from what the starter was providing, I would have to agree with you. A team like the Twins is successful because they have tremendous depth throughout their baseball operation. Their depth makes up for their lack of superstars. You have to remember, though, that most teams don't have this kind of depth. The Twins were bad enough for long enough that they were able to draft high year after year. They also have been somewhat successful in scouting players for the draft.

Orta 4-6-3
08-05-2004, 10:02 AM
:angry: The Sox are very one-dimensional, right handed home run hitting team. Their two best such players are gone. And even before they got hurt, it seems that it was feast or famine --- either double digit runs or struggling to get two. And without Frank and Maggs, it is much more of the latter. What Kenny needs to get is a leadoff man and guys who can do situational hitting.

While the rotation has been improved (Blowenweiss' meltdown notwithstanding), the bullpen, despite the departure of Koch, has become frightening.

And now it looks like the Indians are going to pass us again, if not this year certainly next. Maybe the Tigers, too.

The present and future don't look good. And the past isn't much to brag about, either. And people wonder why Sox fans are bitter.

WinTwins
08-05-2004, 10:03 AM
It's B, but a little bit A also. After the injuries, the Sox had very little margin for error. After the first loss to the Twins (and Hunter's slamming of Burke) the entire team--and Ozzie--seemed to lose their fight. I say also B, because look at last year's Sox, and imagine that team losing their two top starters (Colon, Loaiza) top reliever (Gordon) and two top hitters (Thomas, Ordonez) and ask yourself how the team can possibly compete with the replacements offred? There just isn't the depth at major league or AAA. This offseason will be HUGE for KW and the team if they are to move forward for the long-term.

samram
08-05-2004, 10:17 AM
The Twins were bad enough for long enough that they were able to draft high year after year. They also have been somewhat successful in scouting players for the draft.
They had high draft picks, but the only first rounders making contributions to their team now are Torii Hunter, Mauer, and Cuddyer. They also drafted some very good players they no longer have in the first round like Todd Walker, Varitek, and Mark Redman. The point is they haven't just acquired this depth because of high draft picks because after the top 10 or 15, it's pretty much a crapshoot. The problem for the Sox has been injuries to almost every high round pitcher they have drafted, and it seems that the position players they draft are all of a similar power-hitting mold, and they aren't being properly developed in the minors.

Man, I hate having to say good stuff about the Twins.:mad:

gosox41
08-05-2004, 10:33 AM
I believe the actual cost for Contraras is about 4 million per year. The Yankees are paying a one million a year signing bonus for the next couple of years.
Contreras is owed a total of $17 mill. through 2006. The Yankees are picking up $1 mill in 2005 and $2 mill in '06. THe SOx will pay COntreras the remainig of this years salary (about $2 mill) and $6 mill each of the next 2 years.


Bob

gosox41
08-05-2004, 10:35 AM
If you mean "bench" when you say "depth" I actually think the Sox have the makings of an effective bench. Remember, the idea of a bench is for a team to have players that can relieve starters on occasion for short durations (minor injuries and rest) and to enter games in certain situations (late inning pitching match-ups or defensive substitutions). I think that Burke, Gload, Perez and Uribe are pretty solid in that respect. The problem is that they have all been given extended playing time because of the injuries to Frank and Magglio.

If when you say "depth" you mean plugging in a player from the bench or minor league system without experiencing any loss of production from what the starter was providing, I would have to agree with you. A team like the Twins is successful because they have tremendous depth throughout their baseball operation. Their depth makes up for their lack of superstars. You have to remember, though, that most teams don't have this kind of depth. The Twins were bad enough for long enough that they were able to draft high year after year. They also have been somewhat successful in scouting players for the draft.
But the Twins have had lower draft picks the last coupel of years then the Sox as we finish behind them.


Bob

gosox41
08-05-2004, 10:36 AM
They had high draft picks, but the only first rounders making contributions to their team now are Torii Hunter, Mauer, and Cuddyer. They also drafted some very good players they no longer have in the first round like Todd Walker, Varitek, and Mark Redman. The point is they haven't just acquired this depth because of high draft picks because after the top 10 or 15, it's pretty much a crapshoot. The problem for the Sox has been injuries to almost every high round pitcher they have drafted, and it seems that the position players they draft are all of a similar power-hitting mold, and they aren't being properly developed in the minors.

Man, I hate having to say good stuff about the Twins.:mad:
Doesn't that say something about how the Sox are developing minor league pitching? What are they doing differently? There's occasional bad luck, but eventually after so many fluke injuries, a bell should be going off.



Bob

samram
08-05-2004, 10:42 AM
Doesn't that say something about how the Sox are developing minor league pitching? What are they doing differently? There's occasional bad luck, but eventually after so many fluke injuries, a bell should be going off.



Bob
Yes it does. Of course the Sox haven't been the only team hurt by pitching injuries, but something seems to be wrong with the Sox entire minor league program. I'm not necessarily anti-KW, but given he was the minor league director before being GM, he has to be accountable at that level, and there should be some new management personnel overseeing the minor league operation.

infohawk
08-05-2004, 01:20 PM
But the Twins have had lower draft picks the last coupel of years then the Sox as we finish behind them.


Bob
That's true, but it typically takes several years for drafted players to become major-league ready. Guys like Prior and Mauer are exceptions. With regard to drafting pitchers, I would be interested to know the ratio of high school pitchers versus college pitchers drafted by the Sox over the past several years. I found the argument presented in Moneyball about preferring college pitchers to high school pitchers convincing. It just makes sense to let the college programs develop the pitchers and deal with any injuries that typically afflict college-age pitchers.

Fungo
08-05-2004, 02:05 PM
That's true, but it typically takes several years for drafted players to become major-league ready. Guys like Prior and Mauer are exceptions. With regard to drafting pitchers, I would be interested to know the ratio of high school pitchers versus college pitchers drafted by the Sox over the past several years. I found the argument presented in Moneyball about preferring college pitchers to high school pitchers convincing. It just makes sense to let the college programs develop the pitchers and deal with any injuries that typically afflict college-age pitchers.
From a recent article by Baseball America...
...Fifty righthanders were drafted and signed out of colleges in the first round between the years of 1990-1997, compared to 35 from the prep ranks. Forty-one (82 percent) of the college pitchers reached the majors, while 25 (71 percent) of the high schoolers made it to the top.

Filter out the fringe players, and high school righthanders have a slightly better chance of having a significant career. That's not a misprint. Eleven (31 percent) of the high schoolers became average or better major leaguers, as opposed to 15 (30 percent) of the collegians.

Colleges did yield more above-average righthanders, with five (10 percent): Billy Koch (OK, the club official might have been feeling a bit charitable), Brad Lidge, Matt Morris, Mike Mussina and Aaron Sele. Just two high schoolers (6 percent) became stars, though Kerry Wood and Roy Halladay may accomplish more than anyone in the college group with the possible exception of Mussina.

Teams do win with stars, but how big is the difference? If a club decided to take a college righty in the first round every year, it would come up with an additional blue-chip pitcher once every 25 years than if it went with a prep righthander each time.

Also contrary to popular belief, the high schoolers aren't more likely to break down than the older and more physically mature collegians. I compiled medical data and found that 18 (51 percent) of the prep righties needed an elbow or shoulder operation within five years of being drafted. The college righthanders went under the knife with arm problems nearly as often, with 23 (46 percent) requiring surgery.

OurBitchinMinny
08-05-2004, 02:26 PM
I dont think they quit, but they just arent as talented as the twins w/o maggs who is one of the best all around hitters and plays a solid RF and frank, who not the same player, still gets on base and can hit the long ball.