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Gimm
08-04-2004, 09:31 PM
How is it that so many people were deluding themselves into thinking SS is a starting pitcher who could help this team beat the Twins? How come nobody noticed that his ERA is 6.50+ since the beginning of June? Or that his both his stuff and control are lacking since he came back from the DL?

I called him a whiny talentless bitch yesterday and said tonight was the biggest outing of his life - Sox just had to extend the streak to 3 games and give themselves a fightin' chance in this race. But even I didn't expect him to singlehandledly lose this game in the 1st inning. I mean...the horror. :o:

Bring up Diaz, do a waiver deal, something. Then again, this organization (among other brilliant things) kept on starting Danny Wright almost a full year after most fans realized his arm was ****ed up, so I fully expect Schoeneweiss to make his next scheduled start and help bury this team even deeper. :rolleyes:

CubsfansareDRUNK
08-04-2004, 09:35 PM
How is it that so many people were deluding themselves into thinking SS is a starting pitcher who could help this team beat the Twins? How come nobody noticed that his ERA is 6.50+ since the beginning of June? Or that his both his stuff and control are lacking since he came back from the DL?

I called him a whiny talentless bitch yesterday and said tonight was the biggest outing of his life - Sox just had to extend the streak to 3 games and give themselves a fightin' chance in this race. But even I didn't expect him to singlehandledly lose this game in the 1st inning. I mean...the horror. :o:

Bring up Diaz, do a waiver deal, something. Then again, this organization (among other brilliant things) kept on starting Danny Wright almost a full year after most fans realized his arm was ****ed up, so I fully expect Schoeneweiss to make his next scheduled start and help bury this team even deeper. :rolleyes:

Couldnt Agree More. I really hate schoenwiess. How can you give up 7 IN THE FIRST INNING! JESUS! I really hate that guy. Bring in Diaz!!:dtroll:

Iguana775
08-04-2004, 09:37 PM
I have a feeling that Diaz will be given another shot. I believe he is really kicking ass in AAA right now.....last I checked, anyways.

Whitesox029
08-04-2004, 09:39 PM
Schoe's Foes!

Schoe's Foes!

Schoe's Foes!

:angry:

Huisj
08-04-2004, 09:50 PM
looks like he got back to spring training mode

Gimm
08-04-2004, 09:52 PM
I have a feeling that Diaz will be given another shot. I believe he is really kicking ass in AAA right now.....last I checked, anyways.
Diaz has a better fastball, better slider, better change-up, and in the last 2 outings, he's also had better control than Schoeneweiss.

Kenny can never admit his mistake, which ends up hurting the team in more ways than one. Jerry is a greedy, disingenuous **** who would rather not spend if it can be avoided, which ends up killing this team. How they let 2003 and 2004 slip away I'll never understand.

AnkleSox
08-04-2004, 10:00 PM
I'd like to make a Schoe's Foes banner and bring it to the next game i go to at the cell. Of course, the Sox have to be within 3 games of the twins or 1 game of the wild card if i waste anymore money on tickets this year.

MetalliSox
08-04-2004, 10:06 PM
The only two people who think Shoenweis should be starting is himself and Ozzie, and possibly Scott's mother.

AddisonStSox
08-04-2004, 10:07 PM
If this schmuck complains once...JUST ONCE...about moving back to the bullpen where he belongs, I'm gonna go ballistic.

Gimm
08-04-2004, 10:17 PM
The only two people who think Shoenweis should be starting is himself and Ozzie, and possibly Scott's mother.Oh man, I wish. He had so many supporters a couple of months back, it's not even funny.

My Schoeneweiss problem goes way beyond Schoeneweiss himself. It's everything, from Sox trying to save on an expensive-but-proven FA starter and instead giving up Kip Wells for a "bargain" Ritchie in 2002.....to the Jim Parque Comeback Special......to Wright/Porzio/Cotts/White/Koch in 2003.....to Koch/Schoeneweiss/Borchard/Alomar/Jackson/Cotts/Perez/Gload in 2004.....

....all the while paying lip service to their "great commitment to winning". Yep, that 50 Mill payroll in '03 and a 65 one in '04 were sure great. :rolleyes:


Just damn.

Frater Perdurabo
08-04-2004, 10:20 PM
Trading for Garcia gave the Sox a #2 starter, moving Garland to #3, Loaiza to #4 and Shoeneweiss to #5. Great deal, especially after signing Garcia to a new contract.

Trading Loaiza for Contreras gave the Sox a #3/#4 through 2006. Another good deal, especially considering Loaiza was a free agent and was reverting to his career journeyman form.

4/5ths of the rotation is set through 2006. Kudos to Kenny for getting this done. But the Sox STILL lack a #5 starter. Schoeneweiss should not start another game, and he should not complain if he is sent to the bullpen.

At this point Diaz may be the best/only option.

Gimm
08-04-2004, 10:23 PM
If this schmuck complains once...JUST ONCE...about moving back to the bullpen where he belongs, I'm gonna go ballistic.
And the worst part is that as a reliever, he is just plain better, stuff- and control-wise.

Cotts and Politte already blew at least 2 games apiece because they couldn't get a LH out - and lefties were SS's specialty last year. So, his refusal to pitch in the pen hurt the Sox in two ways. :mad:

gobears1987
08-04-2004, 10:30 PM
what pisses me off more than anything is this was HIS fault. He did not turn the easy Double play in the 1st and cost the game right there. **** him. go Diaz. Schoe, good luck in Charlotte ya *****.

Gimm
08-04-2004, 10:35 PM
Trading for Garcia gave the Sox a #2 starter, moving Garland to #3, Loaiza to #4 and Shoeneweiss to #5. Great deal, especially after signing Garcia to a new contract.
.
It was not a great deal - Sox (JR and KW) shot themselves in the foot so many times in 2002, 2003 and 2004 off-season with their moves and non-moves.....that getting Garcia was absolutely necessary just to keep the 2004 season alive. Otherwise, you would have had Garland-Loaiza-Schoeneweiss-Rauch as 2-3-4-5, which is death considering our offense is highly mediocre without Thomas, Maggs.

Contreras deal - now that's a gamble with a huge upside. Buerhle is nobody's ace, but if Contreras becomes one, then he, Freddy and Mark make a pretty damn good 1-2-3 that could beat anybody in postseason.

But how do you get TO postseason is where the problem lies. With our inconsistent offense, and a 6-game handicap in the standings, having just ONE hole in the rotation is unaccteptable. Judy is fine as a #4, but Schoeneweiss has been a big problem for a couple of months now, and there is no indication he will ever return to his April-May crispness. None.

Gimm
08-04-2004, 10:39 PM
what pisses me off more than anything is this was HIS fault. He did not turn the easy Double play in the 1st and cost the game right there. **** him.
Do you honestly think Sox were winning this game after seeing SS's pathetic pitches to the first 2 Royal batters in the first? He would have found a way to lose in the 2nd and 3rd, either way.

What he needed is to follow Contreras's footsteps and keep the Royals at bay until Sox found a way to tag the pathetic Anderson for a few runs.....Instead, he put the team into a deeep hole right away and that was all she wrote.

fuzzy_patters
08-04-2004, 10:45 PM
I cannot believe some people questioned us ripping on Blowenweiss in Spring Training. The guy had never been successful as a starter in his previous Major League experience, and he sucked all spring. However, we were just supposed to hope that the new pitches Cooper taught him would make him a better pitcher. Well, we are still waiting.

pczarapa
08-04-2004, 10:52 PM
If he would have only let up 1 run over 9 innings they still would have lost

CanadianSoxFan
08-04-2004, 10:53 PM
Gimm, you're judgement on the Garcia trade is clouded. It was a good trade no matter how the team was playing (in first at the time of the trade). And if you look at every teams ace, Buehrle and Garcia are both better than over half of all other team's ace's. In essence, we have two aces that are above average as far as ace's go. It was a good move, and if Contreras works out we'll have a very strong starting staff for two more years at least. Pitching is developing into a team strength all of a sudden. The 5th spot is a major concern however.

fuzzy_patters
08-04-2004, 10:55 PM
If he would have only let up 1 run over 9 innings they still would have lost
I was waiting for someone to use that excuse. I guess that excuses him from giving up 9 runs in 1 1/3. Get a clue. He gave one of the worst pitchers in baseball a reason to get comfortable by giving him a big lead. Do you honestly think Anderson would not have blown it if SS had kept the game close? That punk was 1-9 for a reason, and SS let him relax.

CallMeNuts
08-04-2004, 11:01 PM
With Monday 8/2 as an off day, they could have skipped SS and stated Garland tonight, but instead everybody gets an extra days rest. Every time we get an off day, we should skip our 5th starter. Otherwise, we are taking a start away from one of the top 4.

Flight #24
08-04-2004, 11:01 PM
It was not a great deal - Sox (JR and KW) shot themselves in the foot so many times in 2002, 2003 and 2004 off-season with their moves and non-moves.....that getting Garcia was absolutely necessary just to keep the 2004 season alive. Otherwise, you would have had Garland-Loaiza-Schoeneweiss-Rauch as 2-3-4-5, which is death considering our offense is highly mediocre without Thomas, Maggs.


The problem Gimm is that you're operating with hindsight. At the time the Garcia trade was made, Maggs was out for like 4-6 weeks, and Thomas was healthy. The trade was NOT made to "salvage" the season, it was made assuming that we'd have a healthy O and that adding a Garcia was a necessary component to take us to a WS.

Dick Allen
08-04-2004, 11:17 PM
Not only does SS give up 9 runs, but gives them up to the worst lineup in baseball. Waive his ugly a$$.

gosox41
08-04-2004, 11:20 PM
How is it that so many people were deluding themselves into thinking SS is a starting pitcher who could help this team beat the Twins? How come nobody noticed that his ERA is 6.50+ since the beginning of June? Or that his both his stuff and control are lacking since he came back from the DL?

I called him a whiny talentless bitch yesterday and said tonight was the biggest outing of his life - Sox just had to extend the streak to 3 games and give themselves a fightin' chance in this race. But even I didn't expect him to singlehandledly lose this game in the 1st inning. I mean...the horror. :o:

Bring up Diaz, do a waiver deal, something. Then again, this organization (among other brilliant things) kept on starting Danny Wright almost a full year after most fans realized his arm was ****ed up, so I fully expect Schoeneweiss to make his next scheduled start and help bury this team even deeper. :rolleyes:
I've been a 'Schoe Foe' all year. When he started off hot everyone was saying he was the next Loaiza and that KW is a great GM for all these finds. Well he is the next Loaiza, after tonight both have ERA's over 5.00.

Seriously, Loaiza was the exception to the rule. Last year was a fluke. I said so then and I say so now. For every mefiocre veteran pitcher that goes on to win 20 games over the age of 30 there are probably 50 who have ERA's in the high 4's or worse.

Why dono't people see that? KW lucked into Loiaza. You throw enough of the smelly stuff against the wall and eventually something will stick.


Bob

Gimm
08-04-2004, 11:22 PM
If he would have only let up 1 run over 9 innings they still would have lostThat's not how it works. IF SS goes 9 and gives up 1, Sox in all likelyhood win
5-1 since Anderson is a terrible pitcher himself.

However, even terrible pitchers can pitch very well with a 9-0 lead.

Gimm
08-04-2004, 11:33 PM
The problem Gimm is that you're operating with hindsight. At the time the Garcia trade was made, Maggs was out for like 4-6 weeks, and Thomas was healthy. The trade was NOT made to "salvage" the season, it was made assuming that we'd have a healthy O and that adding a Garcia was a necessary component to take us to a WS.What you have to realize is that even after adding Maggs and Hurt, you have to subtract Uribe, Schoeneweiss, Loaiza, Valentin, Harris - ie the overachievers who were carrying the team in the first 2 months+.

That is what great GM/talent evaluators are getting paid huge money to do - to see the future, as you put it. To anticipate, to build depth, etc.

Either way, Garcia was the move that HAD to be made if Sox had any playoff hopes. After Maggs/Frank went down and O got downgraded from "very good" to "mediocre", that's where having an automatic loss in the #5 slot, which SS has been for many weeks now, became downright unacceptable.

We need another starter now AND a couple of bats.

Gimm
08-04-2004, 11:35 PM
Not only does SS give up 9 runs, but gives them up to the worst lineup in baseball. Waive his ugly a$$.
Can't do that, Dick. Cotts/Politte are useless against LH, we need SS in the pen to take some effin' pressure of Marte.

DumpJerry
08-05-2004, 12:14 AM
Fellas, I'm 42 years old, southpaw, never played organized ball, throw a Shingo-speed fastball of 54 mph and, here's the kicker......I CAN DO A BETTER JOB THAN SS!!!!!!!:?:

JR, I will play for the minimum salary if you replace SS with me......can't be worse than what is going on........

The alternative could be is to bring up Diaz and hypnotize him into thinking he is pitching against the Flubs each day.....................

sld7c
08-05-2004, 12:35 AM
Schoeneweiss has to go. Sure Diaz might mess up, he's been uneven in the majors, but while Diaz is a question mark it's now clear that Schoeneweiss will blunder when he absolutely has to do well. Whatever Diaz might do there's at least a shot that he'll do better than Schoeneweiss, and we need a better pitcher to have any chance at the play offs. Take a little bit of a risk, the only thing we have to lose is finishing the season 10 games back rather than something like six The only argument against bringing up Diaz is that they might do some harm to his future as a pitcher if they bring him up again too soon, but if they're thinking of this year at all they'll pack Schoeneweiss off to the bullpen.
b/t/w the argument they'd have lost anyway is just plain stupid. Being that far up or that far down has a huge psychological impact. Being that far behind the Sox almost certainly didn't play at their best and it has to be a huge comfort for any pitcher to have that much of a cushion.

JB98
08-05-2004, 12:56 AM
Ozzie said in the postmortem that Schoe has one more start to prove himself, next Monday vs. the Tribe.

Unfortunately, I already have tix for that game, so I guess I have to go.

losingugly2004
08-05-2004, 12:56 AM
Unfortunately, Scott Schoeneweiss wasn't the only culprit in tonight's lop-sided loss. Once again, our anemic bats (with the exception of Mr. Rowand's) were a contributing factor to this pathetic outcome. SS should keep his thoughts to himself regarding his suitability as a starter. His abilities come up far short of what he thinks of himself. Although his last two starts weren't as terrible as this one, he has shown a pattern of hanging breaking balls and lousy pitch placement that allows the opponents to tee-off on him. If the White Sox are foolish enough to start him again, I would hope that Ozzie would yank his ineffective rubber-armed monkey a$$ off the damn field. The only thing more inflated than his opinion of his pitching abilities is his ERA. Let's hope that Garland can keep it to four runs or under tomorrow and the Sox bats will return from the dead.


STOP THE BLEEDING, YET AGAIN!!!! :whiner:

Gimm
08-05-2004, 01:01 AM
Ozzie said in the postmortem that Schoe has one more start to prove himself, next Monday vs. the Tribe.

Schoeneweiss doesn't have the talent to be a good ML starter, nor does he appear to be 100% health-wise.

What could possibly change between now and Monday!


I tell you, I am beginning to despise this organization something fierce - so much incompetence at every level, it's sickening. *vomits*

kcsportscaster
08-05-2004, 01:06 AM
After this pathetic showing tonight, Schoeneweis has CERTAINLY got to go, DAMN IT!!!!:angry: What in the freakin' hell has he done to even deserve to start tonight????:angry: How about a waiver trade? Who would be available for K-W's taking who could clear waivers???? If a waiver trade somehow can't be made, then bring Diaz back up from Charlotte and bump Schoeneweis to the bullpen. Hopefully, the good Jon Garland will show up tomorrow night and shut down the Royals.

IF SCHOENEWEIS EVER PITCHES IN ANOTHER GAME FOR DA SOX, I WILL HAVE ABSOLUTELY NO CHOICE BUT TO DO THIS ALL NIGHT :gulp: AND THROW UP ALL OVER MYSELF!!!!

JB98
08-05-2004, 01:10 AM
After this pathetic showing tonight, Schoeneweis has CERTAINLY got to go, DAMN IT!!!!:angry: What in the freakin' hell has he done to even deserve to start tonight????:angry: How about a waiver trade? Who would be available for K-W's taking who could clear waivers???? If a waiver trade somehow can't be made, then bring Diaz back up from Charlotte and bump Schoeneweis to the bullpen. Hopefully, the good Jon Garland will show up tomorrow night and shut down the Royals.

IF SCHOENEWEIS EVER PITCHES IN ANOTHER GAME FOR DA SOX, I WILL HAVE ABSOLUTELY NO CHOICE BUT TO DO THIS ALL NIGHT :gulp: AND THROW UP ALL OVER MYSELF!!!!

I'll be sure to stay clear of you Monday night then.

kcsportscaster
08-05-2004, 01:17 AM
I'll be sure to stay clear of you Monday night then.
LOL!!!! You won't even have to worry about being anywhere near me because you'll have to drive over to Gary, IN to the north end of I-65 and drive all the way to near the south end in Mobile, AL to get anywhere near where I live anyway.

Gimm
08-05-2004, 01:25 AM
How about a waiver trade? Who would be available for K-W's taking who could clear waivers???? . You know, as always, it ALL depends on JR. He said, "the money is not a problem". Let's pretend it wasn't yet another lie for arguement's sake, shall we? :smile:


Example:

Al Leiter makes 10 Mill this year, which means were Sox to get him with 6 weeks left in the season (hopefully Mets realize they're out of it by then), they'd be on the hook for only about 2.5 Mill of it. Given that Lieter is a 2.12 ERA pitcher this year, I'd call him a bargain.

Right now, with his pennant/postseason experience, I would say he would be our ace. Garcia and Buerhle would be 2-3. With Contreras and Judy as 4-5. That rotation blows the Twins away and can do scary damage in the postseason. And it moves Schoeneweis to the pen where he would actually contribute as a big-time lefty specialist.

Would he pass waivers? Who would block him that has a worse record than us and wants to take on his contract? Hopefully, not the Phillies.

Rex Hudler
08-05-2004, 01:53 AM
You know, as always, it ALL depends on JR. He said, "the money is not a problem". Let's pretend it wasn't yet another lie for arguement's sake, shall we? :smile:


Example:

Al Leiter makes 10 Mill this year, which means were Sox to get him with 6 weeks left in the season (hopefully Mets realize they're out of it by then), they'd be on the hook for only about 2.5 Mill of it. Given that Lieter is a 2.12 ERA pitcher this year, I'd call him a bargain.

Right now, with his pennant/postseason experience, I would say he would be our ace. Garcia and Buerhle would be 2-3. With Contreras and Judy as 4-5. That rotation blows the Twins away and can do scary damage in the postseason. And it moves Schoeneweis to the pen where he would actually contribute as a big-time lefty specialist.

Would he pass waivers? Who would block him that has a worse record than us and wants to take on his contract? Hopefully, not the Phillies.
First of all, what makes you think Leiter will be available? Second, it doesn't matter if another team has a worse record than the Sox, if he gets claimed by anyone, he would likely be pulled back off of waivers.

And FWIW, the waiver process would give all NL teams a shot before any AL teams, regardless of record. The claiming process gives priority to teams in the same league as player on waivers, from worst record to first, and then to teams in the opposite league, again from worst record to first.

Aidan
08-05-2004, 02:20 AM
At least Schoe realizes he is his own foe...

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/recap?gameId=240804107
Scott Schoeneweis (6-9) lasted just 1 1/3 innings, his shortest outing this season, giving up a season-high nine runs and nine hits. His ERA rose from 4.89 to 5.56.

"He has one more start to show himself, against Cleveland," Guillen said. "Then we'll make a decision on whether he stays in the rotation."

Schoeneweis didn't disagree.

"A game like that doesn't help my cause," he said.

"Hopefully, I can turn it around. I'm doing everything I can, but things aren't working out. I don't have anybody to blame except myself."If Schoe tanks it again versus the Indians, I think we will see him go to the bullpen with Felix Diaz taking his spot in the rotation. Hopefully, this will give them a reason to send down Cotts or cut Mike Jackson loose.

ChiSoxBobette
08-05-2004, 07:23 AM
How is it that so many people were deluding themselves into thinking SS is a starting pitcher who could help this team beat the Twins? How come nobody noticed that his ERA is 6.50+ since the beginning of June? Or that his both his stuff and control are lacking since he came back from the DL?

I called him a whiny talentless bitch yesterday and said tonight was the biggest outing of his life - Sox just had to extend the streak to 3 games and give themselves a fightin' chance in this race. But even I didn't expect him to singlehandledly lose this game in the 1st inning. I mean...the horror. :o:

Bring up Diaz, do a waiver deal, something. Then again, this organization (among other brilliant things) kept on starting Danny Wright almost a full year after most fans realized his arm was ****ed up, so I fully expect Schoeneweiss to make his next scheduled start and help bury this team even deeper. :rolleyes:
If we have any chance at all Ozzie can't keep bringing this guy out every 5th day to loose. I thought everyone said that we solved this 5th day starter problem but I guess we have'nt. BRING UP DIAZ, LET HIM PITCH THE REST OF THE SEASON!

illiniwhitesox
08-05-2004, 07:56 AM
I cringe everytime he pitches. However, I would not look upon him with acrimony if it were not for his spiel, when he was on the DL and after Diaz pitched a beautiful game, about how he would not go back to the bullpen.

This comment came as the WS were making a big push and everyone on this site and in the bullpen came out against SS for it. It served as a major killjoy and all of a sudden players were forced to respond to these comments. Ozzie went ballistic and had some harsh words for SS!

SS was a .500 pitcher, when he made that statement, and he was tanking fast. We later learned that many on the team viewed him as a constant whiner and complainer. As soon as he rejoined the rotation, he tanked even further.

More than anything else, I can't stand the fact that he shot his mouth off and had nothing to back it up. If you want to stay in the rotation earn it and quit the bitching!

I just don't think he understands yet that he is fortunate he is a lefty and that his stuff is not as good as he thinks it is.

DumpJerry
08-05-2004, 08:12 AM
Why don't we call Tom Ridge and tell him that SS is a member of Al Qaeda? He certainly has been a terrorist (to us, not the rest of the league). He will be scooped up and sent to Gitmo as an "enemy combatant." Then we won't have to worry about his upcoming start which is certainly going to be a total train wreck (everytime he needs to prove himself, he really chokes)......:D:

Scary thought, what if he pitches well agains the Tribe? Does that mean we have to suffer through another start? Does he need to mess up two times in a row before management does what is necesary?:mad:
We have to take matters into our own hands, JR won't do the right thing.

JRIG
08-05-2004, 08:52 AM
I was going to start a "Where Are All the People Who Thought Schoenewiess is a Good Pitcher?" thread, but I guess this is close enough.

1917
08-05-2004, 11:48 AM
Really lets bring up Diaz, put Showey were he belongs, if Diaz is going to be a fixture in the the rotation, lets give him 8 staight starts to work out the kinks. Also, depending on Shingos contract, I think Cotts can be a great closer with more work.

MetalliSox
08-05-2004, 11:50 AM
Shoey doesn't belong in the bullpen, he belongs in his lazy boy chair drinking Pabst Blue Ribbon.

OEO Magglio
08-05-2004, 11:50 AM
Really lets bring up Diaz, put Showey were he belongs, if Diaz is going to be a fixture in the the rotation, lets give him 8 staight starts to work out the kinks. Also, depending on Shingos contract, I think Cotts can be a great closer with more work.It'll happen soon enough. I disagree about Cotts I think Neal is going to be a very good starter.

Gimm
08-05-2004, 12:03 PM
First of all, what makes you think Leiter will be available? Second, it doesn't matter if another team has a worse record than the Sox, if he gets claimed by anyone, he would likely be pulled back off of waivers.

And FWIW, the waiver process would give all NL teams a shot before any AL teams, regardless of record. The claiming process gives priority to teams in the same league as player on waivers, from worst record to first, and then to teams in the opposite league, again from worst record to first.
Leiter was just one example. As we get closer to the waiver deadline, there will be all sorts of options opening up, and with only 6 weeks left in the season, all sorts of players could be affordable.

The question is, as always, will JR be willing to spend a few extra Mill (payroll is roughly 68 Mill right now) to help propel this team into the playoffs?

Schoeneweis? Yeah, he sucks but I welcome him to my pen any day.

1917
08-05-2004, 12:03 PM
It'll happen soon enough. I disagree about Cotts I think Neal is going to be a very good starter.
He does got a degree from Duke...maybe he belongs in the court room or a CEO...but not as a SP on a MLB team!

OurBitchinMinny
08-05-2004, 12:06 PM
Cotts might be a starter. He definitely does not have closer stuff or a closer mentality

Gimm
08-05-2004, 12:07 PM
Scary thought, what if he pitches well agains the Tribe? Does that mean we have to suffer through another start?
LOL, I had the same exact "dilemma" with Parque and Glover in 2002, Wright in 2003 and Rauch and Schoeneweis in latter part of 2004.

I mean, you KNOW they are terrible and yet you can't really root against them. :mad: :redneck