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View Full Version : Jose V. has to go...100 strikeouts and counting


soxfan45
08-04-2004, 08:34 AM
Jose has officially hit the 100 SO count last evening.
I don't know about you but I see a downward spiral
that is blooming in terms of his attitude.

That dropped ball that he had last night on the perfect
throw epitomizes Jose. Lack of concentration and an
ability to get the little things done.

We really need to find someone who can at least field
because his power numbers certainly don't make up for
the fact that he strikes out so much and makes so
many mental errors.

joeynach
08-04-2004, 08:44 AM
Jose has officially hit the 100 SO count last evening.
I don't know about you but I see a downward spiral
that is blooming in terms of his attitude.

That dropped ball that he had last night on the perfect
throw epitomizes Jose. Lack of concentration and an
ability to get the little things done.

We really need to find someone who can at least field
because his power numbers certainly don't make up for
the fact that he strikes out so much and makes so
many mental errors.
I think it may have something to do with his contract situation. He is a FA and wanted an extension from us and we refused. I think he is trying too hard to try and perform into a new contract becuase he wants to stay. Needless to say we are basically done with Jose enough K's, little mistakes, errors, popups....whatever. And i think its getting to him a little bit.

JRIG
08-04-2004, 08:46 AM
Jose has officially hit the 100 SO count last evening.
I don't know about you but I see a downward spiral
that is blooming in terms of his attitude.

That dropped ball that he had last night on the perfect
throw epitomizes Jose. Lack of concentration and an
ability to get the little things done.

We really need to find someone who can at least field
because his power numbers certainly don't make up for
the fact that he strikes out so much and makes so
many mental errors.
:hitless
"Hey, I'll be available yet again! I don't strike out, don't hit home runs, heck...I don't hit! But I also don't make errors. And I work for ice cream!"

mcfish
08-04-2004, 08:57 AM
Don't forget Jose Valentin's .228 batting average.

We should call him Jose #2 from now on.

WinningUgly!
08-04-2004, 09:09 AM
Jose has officially hit the 100 SO count last evening.
I don't know about you but I see a downward spiral
that is blooming in terms of his attitude.

That dropped ball that he had last night on the perfect
throw epitomizes Jose. Lack of concentration and an
ability to get the little things done.

We really need to find someone who can at least field
because his power numbers certainly don't make up for
the fact that he strikes out so much and makes so
many mental errors.
When the Sox are down a run, late in a game, there's nobody I'd rather see at the plate.

ma_deuce
08-04-2004, 09:16 AM
When the Sox are down a run, late in a game, there's nobody I'd rather see at the plate.
:maggs :walnuts :hurt :rowand

I can think of four players I would rather see in that situation than Jose. However, if you are implying that Jose should be a pinch hitter, I may bite. After all, one strikeout in a game is better than four.

Deuce

elrod
08-04-2004, 09:17 AM
Jose' numbers have never been impressive with the Sox, except HRs for a SS. Yet he is one of the big clutch hitters in the lineup. In fact his OPS is higher after the 7th inning (making him Minnesota Twinlike in clutch ability). Hopefully his HR late last night will get him refocused.

WinningUgly!
08-04-2004, 09:23 AM
:maggs :walnuts :hurt :rowand

I can think of four players I would rather see in that situation than Jose. However, if you are implying that Jose should be a pinch hitter, I may bite. After all, one strikeout in a game is better than four.

Deuce
If we still had all four of these guys in the lineup, nobody would be bitching about Valentin's K's & E's. Who am I kidding? If this team went 161-1, there would be people here calling for somebody's parts on a platter.

Dadawg_77
08-04-2004, 10:00 AM
A strikeout is no worse then any other out, and I would argue it is a better way to get out then a ground ball with while a runner can forced. Thus I don't care if a guy makes his out by striking out or poping out. While there are the situations where you rather have a guy put the ball in play, I would rather have a hitter like Adam Dunn (130Ks) then Paul Lo Duca (27Ks). So if you want talk about what matters look at Jose's ability to get on base, OBP .295. But no reason to waste time and broadband on something that doesn't really matter.

Dolanski
08-04-2004, 10:13 AM
Let's see, Jose is 34, a defensive liability, a strikeout machine, and going to cost around say 5 mill per season and will of course ask for 3 years or more, in the words of the Hawk, HE GONE!

Besides, didn't KW get a young guy from Colorado whose natural position is SS, who won't cost that much, and showed signs earlier this year of being a very good player? Wake up and smell the coffee, Juan Uribe is the SS next season. He still needs to mature but he has lots of potential. And more importantly to the management, he's cheap.

Jose is one of my favorites and a team leader, and I will miss having him on this team, but he won't be back. Its a shame in some ways, but the right move for the ballclub.

JoseCanseco6969
08-04-2004, 10:14 AM
When the Sox are down a run, late in a game, there's nobody I'd rather see at the plate.
What about Clutch-Crede?? How many games has he won in the 9th???

Cubbiesuck13
08-04-2004, 10:37 AM
A strikeout is no worse then any other out, and I would argue it is a better way to get out then a ground ball with while a runner can forced. Thus I don't care if a guy makes his out by striking out or poping out. While there are the situations where you rather have a guy put the ball in play, I would rather have a hitter like Adam Dunn (130Ks) then Paul Lo Duca (27Ks). So if you want talk about what matters look at Jose's ability to get on base, OBP .295. But no reason to waste time and broadband on something that doesn't really matter.
I understand your point about the double play v. K but if you put the ball in play against most teams, chances are good that they will make a mistake sooner or later. Give me a low K guy anytime.

WSox8404
08-04-2004, 11:07 AM
When the Sox are down a run, late in a game, there's nobody I'd rather see at the plate.
No thanks. I rather see anyone up there besides him.

soxfan45
08-04-2004, 11:08 AM
Dadawg: Don't get your thought-process. The unfortunate thing
about Jose's strikeouts is that he is not a situational hitter.
Too often he strikes out with a man on 3rd or can't get a guy
over from 2nd because he is swinging for the fences. I'll take
a guy who puts a ball in play and live with the double plays
over a guy who doesn't have a good mental approach when
he comes to the plate and swings like a maniac when we have
guys on base and just need to move someone over.

We need people to get on base. How can one possibly do that
swinging the way he does. At least by putting the ball in play
one increases odds of getting on by even an error.

LASOXFAN
08-04-2004, 11:16 AM
Send Borchard down, call up Bobby Smith, bench Valentin and use him to pinch hit agianst RHP. Valentin blows.

Cubbiesuck13
08-04-2004, 11:24 AM
Jose has batted with runners on 148 times as opposed to Uribe's 120. Naturally Jose has knocked in more because of that and his ability to hit the long ball but Uribe has the better average at .275. Jose is batting .257 with runners on so there is not TOO much difference in batting average but Jose has K'd 42 times instead of Uribe's 20. I can't find a stat that says how many times they have advanced the runner tho...

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/teams/batting?team=chw

Dadawg_77
08-04-2004, 11:40 AM
Dadawg: Don't get your thought-process. The unfortunate thing
about Jose's strikeouts is that he is not a situational hitter.
Too often he strikes out with a man on 3rd or can't get a guy
over from 2nd because he is swinging for the fences. I'll take
a guy who puts a ball in play and live with the double plays
over a guy who doesn't have a good mental approach when
he comes to the plate and swings like a maniac when we have
guys on base and just need to move someone over.

We need people to get on base. How can one possibly do that
swinging the way he does. At least by putting the ball in play
one increases odds of getting on by even an error.
Thought process is this, I don't care how a guy gets out, an out is an out. I care about if a player gets on base and how many bases does he get when he does get on base. Adam Dunn leads the Majors in K with 130 right now, but his OBP is over 400 and his slg is in the 500s. Thus I love a hitter like Dunn because he gets on base and has a high slugging. K's mean nothing to me at the major league level. I rather have guys take pitches they would have a tough time handling hoping then will be called a ball then put weak pop up or grounders into play. This will lead to increased strike outs, but better offensive team.

Cubbiesuck13
08-04-2004, 11:49 AM
Thought process is this, I don't care how a guy gets out, an out is an out. I care about if a player gets on base and how many bases does he get when he does get on base. Adam Dunn leads the Majors in K with 130 right now, but his OBP is over 400 and his slg is in the 500s. Thus I love a hitter like Dunn because he gets on base and has a high slugging. K's mean nothing to me at the major league level. I rather have guys take pitches they would have a tough time handling hoping then will be called a ball then put weak pop up or grounders into play. This will lead to increased strike outs, but better offensive team.
Not true, just look at ShaME SoSo or any other 'free swinging' power hitters. Most do not take pitches that are close; they chase balls out of the zone. The more chances a team has to screw up a grounder or a lazy pop-up the more they will. It is much harder to get on by hoping the catcher will drop it so you can get to first than it is to try and beat out a weak grounder.

sendimjoey
08-04-2004, 11:56 AM
The more chances a team has to screw up a grounder or a lazy pop-up the more they will.Counting on major league fielders to make errors as an offensive strategy doesn't seem like a smart strategy to me.

If Valentin walked 10 more times a month and got 10 more hits a month, I wouldn't care if an even higher percentage of the outs he made were strike outs (with Ks replacing ground outs or fly outs). The point would be that he's making fewer outs. I agree with Dadawg_77 -- how many outs a hitter makes it much more important than how he makes them.

Edit: fixed Dadawg_77's handle.

JB98
08-04-2004, 12:09 PM
I think Jose is tired. Many of you have forgotten that about two months ago, Valentin was playing flawless defense and coming up with clutch hits in the late innings. Lately, he's been making silly mistakes due to lack of concentration, and his bat has been slow. Everything about him right now tells me he's fatigued and needs a couple days off. The problem is, Ozzie can't necessarily rest Valentin against lefties because then he has no other option but to play Harris, who also does not hit lefties well. We need another right-handed bat to play alongside Uribe in the middle infield when we face a lefty. Hell, call up Dransfeldt if there's no better option. I find it absolutely absurd that we have three RFs and three catchers on this team, but only three middle infielders. I'm sick of looking at LTP. I think they should ship his ass back to Charlotte and get somebody up here who can get Valentin the break that he so obviously needs.

Lip Man 1
08-04-2004, 12:10 PM
Just something to consider for next season. Given the lack of Sox infielders up the middle and given the fact that the Sox probably aren't going to be willing to spend the big money needed to get one of the available free agent shortstops, Jose' may be back next season.

Unless the Sox can trade for a shortstop what are the realistic options? You start Uribe at short, that means Harris starts at second (unless the Sox get a second baseman). Starting Harris at second is akin to giving up three or four outs per game.

This guy can't hit with any regularity and is a bench warmer at best.

Lip

Cubbiesuck13
08-04-2004, 12:10 PM
Counting on major league fielders to make errors as an offensive strategy doesn't seem like a smart strategy to me.

If Valentin walked 10 more times a month and got 10 more hits a month, I wouldn't care if an even higher percentage of the outs he made were strike outs (with Ks replacing ground outs or fly outs). The point would be that he's making fewer outs. I agree with Dadawg_77 -- how many outs a hitter makes it much more important than how he makes them.

Edit: fixed Dadawg_77's handle.
I am not suggesting a player should attempt to get on base by reaching on errors but it is a higher percentage play to put the ball in play as well as moving players along. Somehow we have forgotten the pro v. con of hitting the ball. con-double play, pro-moving along the runner. I will take my chances with moving the runner over. What has been suggested here is called 'corpsball' or station to station as opposed to smallball. I figured the waiting on the homer and not worrying about K's would have gotten a little tired but apparently we still have some throwbacks to the JM era.

South Side
08-04-2004, 12:13 PM
If we still had all four of these guys in the lineup, nobody would be bitching about Valentin's K's & E's. Who am I kidding? If this team went 161-1, there would be people here calling for somebody's parts on a platter.
Well, yeah, I'd be pretty pissed at whoever dropped the ball and prevented us from being undefeated. :tongue:

Cubbiesuck13
08-04-2004, 12:13 PM
Just something to consider for next season. Given the lack of Sox infielders up the middle and given the fact that the Sox probably aren't going to be willing to spend the big money needed to get one of the available free agent shortstops, Jose' may be back next season.

Unless the Sox can trade for a shortstop what are the realistic options? You start Uribe at short, that means Harris starts at second (unless the Sox get a second baseman). Starting Harris at second is akin to giving up three or four outs per game.

This guy can't hit with any regularity and is a bench warmer at best.

Lip

Over the course of a normal season, do you think that Harris would not warm up to regular playing time? That would not be conceeding 3-4 outs (which is debatable anyway) and with the defense being stronger I think we would have better team.

Gimm
08-04-2004, 12:20 PM
Jose' may be back next season.

LipOh, he'll be here in '05 as well as '06 before retiring.

His unbelievably awful July (you must remember that he had 920 OPS through first 3 months despite having to learn to hit lefties from the left side for the first time in his career) literally cut his off-season value in half. Sox would be stupid not to bring him back at 2 Mill a year.

I don't buy the "tired" angle. The league simply stopped throwing him fastball strikes; overwhelming majority of his outs in July came on off-speed pitches, often out of the zone. His idiotic refusal to make adjustments is finally catching up to him.

I find it hilarious that when Jose was a 900+ OPS hitter in the 1st half, he was striking out TWICE as often as he was during his horrifric July slump. Hey, maybe strike-outs AREN'T evil, afterall. :rolleyes: :redneck

sendimjoey
08-04-2004, 12:35 PM
What has been suggested here is called 'corpsball' or station to station as opposed to smallball. I figured the waiting on the homer and not worrying about K's would have gotten a little tired but apparently we still have some throwbacks to the JM era.
Call it corpsball if you want, but it is what this team is best at. The problem lately for the Sox has been a lack of baserunners. Sending the runner hasn't been working too well lately, if you haven't noticed.

With the two best hitters out of the lineup and a slump for several of the lesser players in the lineup, no amount of smallball is going to overcome that. Ozzie said the other day that there isn't much a manager can do if there are no baserunners.

Cubbiesuck13
08-04-2004, 12:43 PM
Call it corpsball if you want, but it is what this team is best at. The problem lately for the Sox has been a lack of baserunners. Sending the runner hasn't been working too well lately, if you haven't noticed.

With the two best hitters out of the lineup and a slump for several of the lesser players in the lineup, no amount of smallball is going to overcome that. Ozzie said the other day that there isn't much a manager can do if there are no baserunners.

I believe that is the point of the argument, no? What has a better upside? A player who relies on the homer despite k's and not advancing a runner or able to put a bunt down over a player with roughly the same average that has less power but is able to put the ball in play, thus increasing chances of moving the runner. So in a way you are right, lately the sox have not been doing executing with runners on but mostly you are wrong because you think that it is better to continue that trend rather than play the players that have a better chance of getting the job done.

Simply, smallball v. corpsball

soxfan45
08-04-2004, 01:06 PM
The trouble with your arguement saying that a flyout is
the same as a strikeout is at the core of the white sox
problems. We've been faced with this absurd thought
process of our hitters for the last 4 years.
Not to mention the fact that this thought process has
been partially responsible for the
the predicament that we are current in.

If we could hit flyouts and execute sacrifices (ie. outs) like
the Twins do when runners are on base, maybe we could
advance runners and put them in position to score or actually
score on sacrifices.

Ever think that if one learned to put the bat on the ball
that they would be better prepared to make contact
when we really needed him to make contact.

(last evening...bases loaded...nobody out Rowand Ks,
Perez Ks, and then Gload Ks)

Dont' tell me that a strikeout is as good as a fly ball!!!!

bobj4400
08-04-2004, 01:15 PM
Just something to consider for next season. Given the lack of Sox infielders up the middle and given the fact that the Sox probably aren't going to be willing to spend the big money needed to get one of the available free agent shortstops, Jose' may be back next season.

Unless the Sox can trade for a shortstop what are the realistic options? You start Uribe at short, that means Harris starts at second (unless the Sox get a second baseman). Starting Harris at second is akin to giving up three or four outs per game.

This guy can't hit with any regularity and is a bench warmer at best.

Lip
If Willie were allowed to play 2nd everyday, I think we would find that he is a serviceable player at that position. His OBP is acceptable and he has exceptional speed (although he needs to learn to steal bases.) In fact, his midseason slump coincided with his being shuffled between center and 2nd. Let the man play everyday at 2nd. Valentin should be allowed to leave at the end of the year. I am so sick of him striking out with runners on. He is by far the biggest drag on this team so far in the second half.

Gimm
08-04-2004, 01:25 PM
Dont' tell me that a strikeout is as good as a fly ball!!!!I won't - it's no worse than a fly-out when you adjust for DP's and a significant decrease in Slugging %, as well as for the fact that most strikeouts force a pitcher to throw 4-5 pitches, showcasing his 'out' pitch for the next batter.

As long as you're still productive in 3rd/1-out and 2nd/no outs situations, I could care less how much you K overall. Well not exactly - ideally I would like a player hit for power, run-produce, avoid gidp AND not strike out, but those guys are very expensive.

Valentin was much, much better when he was striking out at a very high rate in the 1st three months of the season than he was in July when most of his outs were flyballs and grounders. Similarly, Paul Konerko is incomparably better in 2004 than he was in 2003 when he was concentrating on putting the ball in play, something which resulted in too many GIDP and too many singles on mistakes that should have been driven for extra bases. Ditto Frank Thomas in the June 2003-June 2004 span where he had a near 1100 OPS and pretty much admitted to swinging for the fences, complete with a rising K total.

Stop living in the 60's and learn to love the strike-out, is what I am saying. :bandance:

Cubbiesuck13
08-04-2004, 01:25 PM
Remember Chris Singleton and how he couldn't get a jump to save his life. He was speedy but Harris is faster still. Can anyone on the sox get a jump?

South Side
08-04-2004, 01:28 PM
Remember Chris Singleton and how he couldn't get a jump to save his life. He was speedy but Harris is faster still. Can anyone on the sox get a jump?
Aaron Rowand

Cubbiesuck13
08-04-2004, 01:33 PM
Aaron Rowand
Can he really? I did not think he stole very often but I suppose he has to speed to. It is good to hear that he can get a good jump, it is just one more thing to like about this suprise (to me). He has hit in an 0-2 count 22 times and has 11 hits. That is pretty good, that means he thinks and changes his stance and approach to the plate. I really like Rowand for RF if not CF.

Gimm
08-04-2004, 01:38 PM
. I really like Rowand for RF if not CF.
You must not be watching a lot of Sox games then cuz Rowand's defense in CF has been incomparably better than in RF this year.

:smile:

Cubbiesuck13
08-04-2004, 01:44 PM
You must not be watching a lot of Sox games then cuz Rowand's defense in CF has been incomparably better than in RF this year.

:smile:
You are right, I watch as many as a can but if was to go to the one place around here that has the baseball package I would be a poor, drunken sailor (much more than I am now). I tend to hear what people here who acually watch most of the games and that is what I have been told. However, I do think he is a good fielder but would be a better RF simply because it is an easier position to play. Once again I am wrong.

Dadawg_77
08-04-2004, 01:48 PM
I believe that is the point of the argument, no? What has a better upside? A player who relies on the homer despite k's and not advancing a runner or able to put a bunt down over a player with roughly the same average that has less power but is able to put the ball in play, thus increasing chances of moving the runner. So in a way you are right, lately the sox have not been doing executing with runners on but mostly you are wrong because you think that it is better to continue that trend rather than play the players that have a better chance of getting the job done.

Simply, smallball v. corpsballNo. Working the count, getting on base isn't corpsball. Corpsball is swinging at the first pitch and getting out. When the Sox are successful at the plate, they work counts, when they struggle they get too aggressive up there and swing at bad pitches. Other then injured Frank Thomas the highest OPB on the Sox is .367 from Konerko. You don't score too many runs without getting on base.

The teams OBP in July was .285 (worst in baseball) and we scored 107 times in 27 games, 26th in the majors. Durring this time the Sox struck out 167, 15th in the League. In June the Sox struck out 189 times in 25 games for the fifth highest total in the Majors but the Sox OBP was .360, second highest in the majors, and we scored 157 runs third highest in the majors. You will see this pattern; of more OPB equals more runs while more strikeout doesn't equal anything, over and over. Thus we can conclude strike outs have little effect on the amount of runs a team scores. Actually if you did regression on the numbers, it will come out more strike outs equals more runs, but all know there is no causation there and it only tells us there is no relationship between not scoring runs and striking out.

Gimm
08-04-2004, 01:49 PM
I won't - it's no worse than a fly-out when you adjust for DP's and a significant decrease in Slugging %, as well as for the fact that most strikeouts force a pitcher to throw 4-5 pitches, showcasing his 'out' pitch for the next batter.

As long as you're still productive in 3rd/1-out and 2nd/no outs situations, I could care less how much you K overall. Well not exactly - ideally I would like a player hit for power, run-produce, avoid gidp AND not strike out, but those guys are very expensive.

Valentin was much, much better when he was striking out at a very high rate in the 1st three months of the season than he was in July when most of his outs were flyballs and grounders. Similarly, Paul Konerko is incomparably better in 2004 than he was in 2003 when he was concentrating on putting the ball in play, something which resulted in too many GIDP and too many singles on mistakes that should have been driven for extra bases. Ditto Frank Thomas in the June 2003-June 2004 span where he had a near 1100 OPS and pretty much admitted to swinging for the fences, complete with a rising K total.

Stop living in the 60's and learn to love the strike-out, is what I am saying. :bandance:Btw, I forgot to mention that the reason why Sox have been falling apart in the last 10 days has nothing to do with strike-outs...and everything to do with Crede, Borchard, Alomar, Uribe, Timo, Gload, Valentin and Everett being automatic outs - whether it be of strike-out, flyball, groundball, bunt force, tag or caught stealing variety.

And before we orgasm all over the Twins' approach at the plate....It helps to remember that just as of 10 days ago, Sox were simply a BETTER hitting team - strike-outs and all. Not many remember this, but it's our starting pitching woes that kept the team grounded in June and July when we could have built a 5-7 game lead with ease....NOT the so-called lack of fundamentals.

WinTwins
08-04-2004, 01:53 PM
Valentin isn't that bad--he's got flaws just like most other shortstops. There's only a few teams that wouldn't like to upgrade their middle infield. Having said that, he's not worth anything close to $5M per year. A replacement level player would be a better bet, then sink the savings into another position. I'd hand the job the Uribe right now, and save Valentin's bat for some critical late-inning situations.

Dadawg_77
08-04-2004, 01:56 PM
Valentin isn't that bad--he's got flaws just like most other shortstops. There's only a few teams that wouldn't like to upgrade their middle infield. Having said that, he's not worth anything close to $5M per year. A replacement level player would be a better bet, then sink the savings into another position. I'd hand the job the Uribe right now, and save Valentin's bat for some critical late-inning situations.
You guys when a Twin's fan is pushing for Uribe to start, you know Juan isn't good enough.

WinTwins
08-04-2004, 02:05 PM
You guys when a Twin's fan is pushing for Uribe to start, you know Juan isn't good enough.

LOL. I just think that Uribe might represent the best of a bad situation. Unless the Sox enter the Nomar sweepstakes this winter (risky) I think it's wiser to spend some dough on proven pitching or hitting and take your lumps at a position where plenty of other teams also do. Believe me, Twins fans feel pretty similar about Guzman as you all do about Valentin, so we're in the same boat. In fact, Nick Punto and Jason Bartlett (1 MLB game) are our best backup plans, so Uribe looks OK when compared to them.

sendimjoey
08-04-2004, 02:38 PM
I believe that is the point of the argument, no? What has a better upside? A player who relies on the homer despite k's and not advancing a runner or able to put a bunt down over a player with roughly the same average that has less power but is able to put the ball in play, thus increasing chances of moving the runner. So in a way you are right, lately the sox have not been doing executing with runners on but mostly you are wrong because you think that it is better to continue that trend rather than play the players that have a better chance of getting the job done.

Simply, smallball v. corpsball
Dadawg_77 already wrote an excellent answer to this. I just wanted to say that my point was that the problems the Sox have been having in scoring runs isn't because they haven't been executing and moving runners along, it's that they haven't had very many runners to move along or strand or score.

Let's hope last night's game is a sign that we won't have to revisit this argument for a while.

wdelaney72
08-04-2004, 02:55 PM
I've seen pictures for "This Thread Sucks" and "This Thread Blows". Do we have one for "This Thread rules".

Jose sucks and I want him gone last season!

Dadawg_77
08-04-2004, 02:56 PM
I've seen pictures for "This Thread Sucks" and "This Thread Blows". Do we have one for "This Thread rules".

Jose sucks and I want him gone last season!:threadrules:

wdelaney72
08-04-2004, 02:57 PM
Thanks DADAWG!

:threadrules:

poorme
08-04-2004, 03:12 PM
valentin is rob deer at SS. i guess you could do worse, but he's going to be 35 next year. .225 is pretty rare nowadays.

dickallen15
08-04-2004, 05:28 PM
A strikeout is no worse then any other out, and I would argue it is a better way to get out then a ground ball with while a runner can forced. Thus I don't care if a guy makes his out by striking out or poping out. While there are the situations where you rather have a guy put the ball in play, I would rather have a hitter like Adam Dunn (130Ks) then Paul Lo Duca (27Ks). So if you want talk about what matters look at Jose's ability to get on base, OBP .295. But no reason to waste time and broadband on something that doesn't really matter.Runners don't move into scoring position on strikeouts. Runners on 3rd remain there. Putting the ball in play also makes the defense make a play. His OBP is weak as well. A strikeout isn't as bad as a DP, but it is or at least can be worse than the other ways to make an out. You have a much better chance of reaching base on an error than on a dropped 3rd strike. Jose's sac. bunting has also been horrible this season, and has lead to a few of those strikeouts.

Cubbiesuck13
08-05-2004, 06:07 AM
Runners don't move into scoring position on strikeouts. Runners on 3rd remain there. Putting the ball in play also makes the defense make a play. His OBP is weak as well. A strikeout isn't as bad as a DP, but it is or at least can be worse than the other ways to make an out. You have a much better chance of reaching base on an error than on a dropped 3rd strike. Jose's sac. bunting has also been horrible this season, and has lead to a few of those strikeouts.

this is from the tribune this morning.
The Sox squandered their only scoring opportunity in the first inning. Rowand led off with a double into the right-field corner. He advanced to third on a flyout by Juan Uribe. But Carlos Lee struck out, and Anderson induced a groundout by Konerko.


Note the advance of the runner on a flyout and the lack of advancing on the K. If you flip flop Lee's out and Konerko's out then we get a run in the first and loose big anyhow but that is an example of what is the better out.

illiniwhitesox
08-05-2004, 07:01 AM
When the Sox are down a run, late in a game, there's nobody I'd rather see at the plate.
I'll take Frank, Mags, Paulie or even Crede any day over Jose in this situation.

Cubbiesuck13
08-05-2004, 08:19 AM
I'll take Frank, Mags, Paulie or even Crede any day over Jose in this situation.

Perez hits the best out of everyone with a decent number of chances with runners on and 2 outs. He is batting .438 with 23 at bats. Crede, suprisingly is awfull in this situation. In 48 at bats he is bating .158. I always thought that when he does get a hit it usually means something but I guess not with 2 outs.

Dadawg_77
08-05-2004, 09:04 AM
Runners don't move into scoring position on strikeouts. Runners on 3rd remain there. Putting the ball in play also makes the defense make a play. His OBP is weak as well. A strikeout isn't as bad as a DP, but it is or at least can be worse than the other ways to make an out. You have a much better chance of reaching base on an error than on a dropped 3rd strike. Jose's sac. bunting has also been horrible this season, and has lead to a few of those strikeouts.
Look I am talking in general here that a strike out is no worse then any other out besides a double play. Yes there a situtation where you rather have the guy put the ball in play, but overall a strike out is no worse then any other out. To say a player sucks because he strikes out at a major league level too much, isn't a proper way too look at the question. To say a player sucks because he makes too many outs is. I am talking in generalites here, while you guys keep bringing up specifics situations with out look at other situations, so we are talking about apples and oranges. All of Jose K's haven't come with a man on third, have they?

ma_deuce
08-05-2004, 09:28 AM
All of Jose K's haven't come with a man on third, have they?Nope. If they had, they would have been sac flys... unless its Konerko on third.

mcfish
08-05-2004, 10:59 AM
Nope. If they had, they would have been sac flys... unless its Konerko on third.:?: So if Jose's K's had happened with a man on third (except Paulie of course) they would have been sac flys? :dunno:

dickallen15
08-05-2004, 04:52 PM
Look I am talking in general here that a strike out is no worse then any other out besides a double play. Yes there a situtation where you rather have the guy put the ball in play, but overall a strike out is no worse then any other out. To say a player sucks because he strikes out at a major league level too much, isn't a proper way too look at the question. To say a player sucks because he makes too many outs is. I am talking in generalites here, while you guys keep bringing up specifics situations with out look at other situations, so we are talking about apples and oranges. All of Jose K's haven't come with a man on third, have they?Jose makes too many outs. His career average coming into this year isn't even .250. This year he is worse. He has always struck out a lot. This year his rate is even higher. In fact, its so high that if he hadn't missed time on the DL he would have a shot at the all time record. A lot of his K's have come with men on base, so he failed to advance them. I can think of 4 times off the top of my head that he failed to sacrifice and struck out. This guy is loved by people because of 1 stat, the homerun. The same people who love him because of this criticize Sammy Sosa because that's all he does. They are very similar, except Sosa homers more frequently, and Jose's a better baserunner, but he's on so little that it rarely matters. That and Sosa can play effectively vs. right and left handed pitching, Valentin cannot. My argument was general. K's are worse because you have no chance with a k. Put the ball in play and things can happen. Wild throws drops, runners advancing....

Cubbiesuck13
08-05-2004, 07:56 PM
so far in tonights (thursday) game we have reached on errors twice. interesting. even though so far they have not mattered in terms of runs, it is still interesting.