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View Full Version : Happy Anniversary Nellie Fox


Fisk72
08-03-2004, 09:24 AM
On this date (August 3rd) in 1997, our very own Nelson Fox was inducted posthumously into Cooperstown. This was the most recent member enshrined wearing a White Sox cap. (I know there are many of us wishing Pudge went in wearing a WHITE Sox cap a few years back...) HAPPY ANNIVERSARY, NELLIE! This one's for you...:gulp:

ondafarm
08-03-2004, 11:59 AM
Here's to the greatest second sacker to wear a White Sox uniform !!!:gulp:

Frater Perdurabo
08-03-2004, 12:01 PM
Here's to the greatest second sacker to wear a White Sox uniform !!!:gulp:

How dare you speak ill of Steve Sax and Wayne Tolleson! :redneck

DC Sox Fan
08-03-2004, 12:03 PM
How dare you speak ill of Steve Sax and Wayne Tolleson


LOL! DON'T FORGET JULIO CRUZ AND DONNIE HILL!!!!

ondafarm
08-03-2004, 12:08 PM
LOL! DON'T FORGET JULIO CRUZ AND DONNIE HILL!!!!
At least I'm not getting flak from the Eddie Collins fan club !!! :bandance:

idseer
08-03-2004, 12:17 PM
On this date (August 3rd) in 1997, our very own Nelson Fox was inducted posthumously into Cooperstown. This was the most recent member enshrined wearing a White Sox cap. (I know there are many of us wishing Pudge went in wearing a WHITE Sox cap a few years back...) HAPPY ANNIVERSARY, NELLIE! This one's for you...:gulp:
believe it or not i get angry when i think about fox's induction.
he SHOULD have been voted in the regular way instead of going thru the back door.

stupid voters. :mad:

Lip Man 1
08-03-2004, 12:23 PM
The heart and soul of the Sox for 12 years. It just shows you what 'heart' and 'guts' can accomplish. Lip

Fisk72
08-03-2004, 12:26 PM
believe it or not i get angry when i think about fox's induction.
he SHOULD have been voted in the regular way instead of going thru the back door.

stupid voters. :mad:
I've heard now and then that Aparicio didn't vote Fox in when he had the chance before. Any truth to this story? What was the deal? After being such the dynamic duo up the middle for those years, you'd think they'd support each other 'til the end!

MarkEdward
08-03-2004, 01:56 PM
At least I'm not getting flak from the Eddie Collins fan club !!! :bandance:As Eddie Collins' sponsor on baseball-reference.com, I feel I should support arguably the greatest second baseman to play the game.

Simply put, Fox was the better fielder and Collins the better hitter. Using Win Shares (the only historical defensive metric I trust, I won't bother with BP's defensive stats for now), Fox had about 103 fielding WS in 14 seasons with the Sox, Collins had 63 in 12 seasons. Fox obviously leads, but Collins was no slouch in the field; both his fielding percentage and range factor were above average for the league. Bill James gives Collins an 'A+' grade among early second baseman (1876-1930; incidentally, Fox received an 'A' among post-War second baseman). Finally, Collins played 40 games at SS over his career (though none with the Sox). Obviously, Collins' contemporaries believed he was a good enough defensive 2B.

Offensively, it's no contest. Collins had 250 offensive Win Shares with the Sox (behind Thomas and Appling), Fox had 181 (behind Minoso). Collins was one of the best hitters of his time, consistently in the top five in batting average, OBP, and even SLG. He was consistently in the top ten in walks, and is seventh all-time in stolen bases (his SB% is 81, though some of the data is incomplete). For the small ball fans, he's the all time leader in sacrifice hits (512, the second-place player has 392). This isn't even mentioning a career OPS+ of 141. Even OPS+ underrates Collins because OPS tends to overvalue SLG. To show what a great hitter Collins was, his career OBP was .424. An average player during Collins' time had an OBP of .342. Finally, going by Win Shares, Collins' 1915 and 1920 seasons rank as two of the ten best years in Sox history.

Nellie's offensive resume obviously isn't as packed (though not many players can boast about the numbers Collins put up), though he wasn't a bad hitter. His career OPS+ was 94, but like Collins, most of Fox's offensive value came from his OBP. Fox had a career OBP of .348, the league average was .339. Whereas Collins did have some pop, Fox had none (career SLG of .363). Fox's offensive value came in his ability to get hits (especially triples), getting hit by pitches (nineteenth all-time in HBP), and staying healthy. As mentioned, Collins was a decent-very good baserunner; Fox- not so much. 48% career stolen base percentage.

This is without going into the intangibles. Collins was a very smart player who had a decent managerial career (.521 career WP in three seasons). Plus, he gets extra points in my book for being one of the honest players during the 1919 World Series. On almost any other team, Fox would rank as the top second baseman. Collins, I believe, wins the debate in regards to the Sox. Incidentally, James ranks Collins as the second-best 2B of all-time (just behind Joe Morgan); Fox is ranked at number 15 (behind Billy Herman, ahead of Joe Gordan).

One more thing: isn't it odd that the Sox acquired both these players from the Philadelphia Athletics (the Sox purchased Collins after one of Connie Mack's firesales, Fox came over in a trade for Joe Tipton)?

idseer
08-03-2004, 07:50 PM
I've heard now and then that Aparicio didn't vote Fox in when he had the chance before. Any truth to this story?
i trust you mean when fox did get in. obviously aparicio had no vote the first time around.
i have never heard this before and a doubt it very much. it was my understanding they were pretty close. i'd be interested to know if anyone here knows different.

owensmouth
08-03-2004, 07:57 PM
As Eddie Collins' sponsor on baseball-reference.com, I feel I should support arguably the greatest second baseman to play the game.

Simply put, Fox was the better fielder and Collins the better hitter. Using Win Shares (the only historical defensive metric I trust, I won't bother with BP's defensive stats for now), Fox had about 103 fielding WS in 14 seasons with the Sox, Collins had 63 in 12 seasons. Fox obviously leads, but Collins was no slouch in the field; both his fielding percentage and range factor were above average for the league. Bill James gives Collins an 'A+' grade among early second baseman (1876-1930; incidentally, Fox received an 'A' among post-War second baseman). Finally, Collins played 40 games at SS over his career (though none with the Sox). Obviously, Collins' contemporaries believed he was a good enough defensive 2B.

Offensively, it's no contest. Collins had 250 offensive Win Shares with the Sox (behind Thomas and Appling), Fox had 181 (behind Minoso). Collins was one of the best hitters of his time, consistently in the top five in batting average, OBP, and even SLG. He was consistently in the top ten in walks, and is seventh all-time in stolen bases (his SB% is 81, though some of the data is incomplete). For the small ball fans, he's the all time leader in sacrifice hits (512, the second-place player has 392). This isn't even mentioning a career OPS+ of 141. Even OPS+ underrates Collins because OPS tends to overvalue SLG. To show what a great hitter Collins was, his career OBP was .424. An average player during Collins' time had an OBP of .342. Finally, going by Win Shares, Collins' 1915 and 1920 seasons rank as two of the ten best years in Sox history.

Nellie's offensive resume obviously isn't as packed (though not many players can boast about the numbers Collins put up), though he wasn't a bad hitter. His career OPS+ was 94, but like Collins, most of Fox's offensive value came from his OBP. Fox had a career OBP of .348, the league average was .339. Whereas Collins did have some pop, Fox had none (career SLG of .363). Fox's offensive value came in his ability to get hits (especially triples), getting hit by pitches (nineteenth all-time in HBP), and staying healthy. As mentioned, Collins was a decent-very good baserunner; Fox- not so much. 48% career stolen base percentage.

This is without going into the intangibles. Collins was a very smart player who had a decent managerial career (.521 career WP in three seasons). Plus, he gets extra points in my book for being one of the honest players during the 1919 World Series. On almost any other team, Fox would rank as the top second baseman. Collins, I believe, wins the debate in regards to the Sox. Incidentally, James ranks Collins as the second-best 2B of all-time (just behind Joe Morgan); Fox is ranked at number 15 (behind Billy Herman, ahead of Joe Gordan).

One more thing: isn't it odd that the Sox acquired both these players from the Philadelphia Athletics (the Sox purchased Collins after one of Connie Mack's firesales, Fox came over in a trade for Joe Tipton)?
One thing that you failed to mention about Nellie: He was damn near impossible to strike out.

Lip Man 1
08-03-2004, 10:22 PM
Supposedly it was Al Lopez who voted against Nellie. I find that hard to believe but if anyone has any proof I'd love to see it posted.


Lip

flo-B-flo
08-03-2004, 10:59 PM
My dad told me he was one of the greatest Sox EVER.

Cubbiesuck13
08-04-2004, 12:41 AM
Supposedly it was Al Lopez who voted against Nellie. I find that hard to believe but if anyone has any proof I'd love to see it posted.


Lip
Lip, you posted this and I was about to ask about it. I heard the same thing but have not been able to find anything about it. Not only did I hear the Lopez voted against him but he basically campaigned against him, so I hear.Anyone.......

Nellie_Fox
08-04-2004, 01:09 AM
From http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Nellie_Fox

The first White Sox player elected MVP of the American League.
Only 216 career strikeouts in over 9,200 at-bats: the 3rd best percentage in MLB (http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Major_League_Baseball) history.
Set the record for consecutive games played at second base, with 798.
12-time All-Star (http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Major_League_Baseball_All-Star_Game).
3-time Gold Glove (http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Gold_Glove) winner.
Turned more double plays than anyone except Bill Mazeroski (http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Bill_Mazeroski).
Between 1959 and 1960 the Aparicio-Fox duo won twice Gold Gloves, starting a select list of eight shortstop-second baseman combinations have won the honor in the same season while playing together.
See also


List of shortstop-second baseman duos have won Gold Glove Awards in the same season (http://www.wordiq.com/definition/List_of_shortstop-second_baseman_duos_have_won_Gold_Glove_Awards_in_ the_same_season)
Quotations

"Fox is what you'd call a manager's ballplayer. He does his job expertly and he does it every day. He's the type of player you can count on. He's an old pro. A great many times, he is hurting pretty badly from the dumpings he's taken on the field, but he's always ready to play." - Hall of Fame Manager Al Lopez

TornLabrum
08-04-2004, 12:18 PM
A couple of things:

Regarding Aparicio, until a couple of years ago, the veterans committee consisted of an elite group of HOFers, of which Aparicio was not a member. He did not block Fox.

As far as the Lopez story, I've heard the rumors, too, but I've never seen them confirmed by anyone who would know. To the contrary, I think I've seen reports that Lopez has denied them.

Cubbiesuck13
08-04-2004, 12:35 PM
Torn, Do you know of any Lopez reports that are on the net? I would be interested to see what why he thinks those rumours started in the first place.