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View Full Version : Losing Frank and Maggs not an excuse to lose


chisox06
08-02-2004, 11:52 PM
August is here, clean slate lets put the past behind us. There's still plenty of baseball left, but if the sox fall flat on there ass once again, the number one reason we'll be hearing the whole offseason is it's because Frank and Maggs went down. Thats BS, sorry but thats no excuse. I sure hope the sox dont look at this season as a lost cause, but instead look at it as an opportunity to flourish during a bad situation. It's called stepping up, and thats what the sox gotta do, right now.

The young guys it's your turn to have the spotlight for a while, if you want it. Rowand, Crede, Borchard, Willie, Uribe, Timo your the keys to this team. We all know Paulie and Lee are going to continue to produce, they've proven they can do it.

The wildcard for the rest of the season is Ozzie. Under JM I dont think the sox could come out on top over a blow like this, but I think Ozzie has the ability to light a fire under these guys.

In August the sox have 20 games against teams under .500. And have 8 games with teams above.

The Twins have 9 games against sub .500 teams and have 19 with teams above it.

So the time to gain ground is now. 5 games is not that much, especially considering how the schedule favors the sox. Sure losing Frank and Maggs hurts, but that shouldn't be an excuse to lose rather motivation to continue winning. However, losing 7 games in a row doesn't do much for my confidence.

doublem23
08-03-2004, 12:07 AM
Sorry, I got to bust out the Falling Poo tag for this one.

:whoflungpoo

No team in Major League Baseball could survive a production like this. Out of curiosity, in the months that Maggs and Frank were together healthy, how many runs did they combine to produce? They are the heart and soul of our line-up, when healthy, one of the best in the business. But with the two of them gone, this team is significantly weaker. Sorry, I don't buy it.

StepsInSC
08-03-2004, 12:18 AM
August is here, clean slate lets put the past behind us. There's still plenty of baseball left, but if the sox fall flat on there ass once again, the number one reason we'll be hearing the whole offseason is it's because Frank and Maggs went down. Thats BS, sorry but thats no excuse.

That's not BS, its the truth. What kind of bass ackwards logic says otherwise? You can't rely on a bunch of unproven talents to step up their game. Losing your best two hitters has the potential to be a knockout blow to any team, maybe except the Yanks or the Cards with their current division leads.

Especially so when you have a BUNCH of sub-mediocre hitters like we do, when Maggs and Thomas are the lineup they don't look so bad as a team.

JB98
08-03-2004, 01:31 AM
That's not BS, its the truth. What kind of bass ackwards logic says otherwise? You can't rely on a bunch of unproven talents to step up their game. Losing your best two hitters has the potential to be a knockout blow to any team, maybe except the Yanks or the Cards with their current division leads.

Especially so when you have a BUNCH of sub-mediocre hitters like we do, when Maggs and Thomas are the lineup they don't look so bad as a team.
Losing Frank and Maggs is the reason our offense is struggling. It's not an excuse; it's a reason. There is a distinct difference between the two terms.

However, injuries do not excuse a 7-game losing streak. We lost four one-run games because of an error-prone shortstop and relief pitchers who cannot throw strikes. The loss of two tremendous hitters doesn't mean the 25 guys on the active roster should be able to get away with pathetic performances like that.

Bisco Stu
08-03-2004, 02:14 AM
"Excuses are the bricks and nails that build a house of failure."

While I agree with the above sentiment, if losing Maggs and Frank isn't an excuse, there's no such thing as an excuse.

They are 2 of the 10 top White Sox players EVER, with Frank arguably #1.

MisterB
08-03-2004, 04:00 AM
No team in Major League Baseball could survive a production like this. Out of curiosity, in the months that Maggs and Frank were together healthy, how many runs did they combine to produce? They are the heart and soul of our line-up, when healthy, one of the best in the business. But with the two of them gone, this team is significantly weaker. Sorry, I don't buy it.Well, there's weak and there's WEAK. In May when both Frank and Maggs were healthy, the Sox had one of the best offenses in baseball (3rd overall). In July with both out, they Sox had one of baseball's worst offenses (27th). I doubt there are many contending teams that, even if you removed the best 2 hitters from the lineup, would have an offensive dropoff that steep. The fact is, not only are the big 2 gone, but most of the rest of the lineup is SEVERELY underperforming. Again, compare May and July numbers to each player's typical overall production:

Lee - May: average (less power and more hits) / July: above average (power surge)
Konerko - average (less power, more walks) / average
Valentin - average / far below average
Crede - below average / below average (just HIT the damn ball already!)
Harris - far above average / below average
Uribe - far above average / far below average
Perez - average / below average
Rowand - slightly above average / far above average

Not only are we missing our best two offensive contributors, but half of the remaining lineup is hitting for crap now. If this kind of dropoff should be expected with Frank and Maggs' absence, then KW should have white flagged it, because we'd be 10 games out by the time they got back. Just when we really need guys to step it up, half the lineup is completely crapping out instead. THAT is inexcusable.

SSN721
08-03-2004, 06:57 AM
I also agree that this is not an excuse but it is a big reason. we do have players severely underperforming, that is true, but it is a huge hole to fill with the void left by both maggs and thomas' absence. I really hope the young players can step up and maybe a new month and a win to build off of cleans the slate. I hope. I dont want to give up yet.

hsnterprize
08-03-2004, 07:56 AM
Like other people have said, losing Frank and Maggs is a reason, but not an excuse as to why this team isn't playing like it should. Now, let's remember this was a bad week, and every team...EVEN THE CUBS...have bad weeks. Considering our team doesn't have its 2 biggest bats, there is still no reason why our leadoff hitter can't lay down a bund to save his life, our shortstop is a "home run or strikeout" hitter, triple-A players who can't step up in major league clutch situations, and relief pitchers who can't throw strikes when they need them the most. If Frank Thomas and Magglio Ordonex played all 9 positions on the field, then I can understand the sudden swoon. But c'mon...get real...every player on that squad needs to take a long look in the mirror, and ask himself if he really wants to win or not.

This team is one long winning streak away from getting the headlines back. They had momentum last week at this time, and we all know what happened. The Cubs were "all but dead" last week while we were rejoicing with glee. Now, the momentum has shifted...especially with Nomar being a Cub.

Let's keep this all in perspective. It's not time to throw in the towel, although it is time to show some concern. It's not over yet...as much as people might not want to read/hear that. The Sox have the talent to at least make it to the post season. And once that happens, and at least one of the big boppers coming back to the lineup, the Sox should be fine. However, everyone in the lineup could be a 30-100-.300 hitter, and that won't make up for a questionable bullpen or players who can't play fundamental baseball.

Irishsox1
08-03-2004, 10:32 AM
If losing Frank and Maggs doesn't allow for excuses, then how whould you feel about the Cub's chances if they lost Sosa and Alou? Or if the Yankees lost Jeter and A-Rod? Injuries are bad luck and the Sox steped into a huge pile of it this year.

gosox41
08-03-2004, 10:51 AM
If losing Frank and Maggs doesn't allow for excuses, then how whould you feel about the Cub's chances if they lost Sosa and Alou? Or if the Yankees lost Jeter and A-Rod? Injuries are bad luck and the Sox steped into a huge pile of it this year.

If we're going to start making excuses as to why we aren't going to win, then why didn't we pull a White Flag trade to begin with. This team already has the 'feel sorry for themselves, losers mentality.'

If they think they're going to lose, then I can tell you that they're 100% right. Season is over. If they honestly think they can catch Minnesota then they need to stop the 'woe is me' attitude and using Frank and Magglio as excuses. It is what it is. It sucks. But doesn't it suck worse then if the team feels sorry for itself and gives up? Because after reading Ozzie's comments in the paper the last week that is exactly what's happened. So these players will collec their paychecks and feel sorry for themselves the rest of the way.

Besides if KW is truly the great GM many think he is, then team shouldn't fall of the cliff like they have recently. No doubt they'll win more with both in the lineup (or even just one) but does it mean that they can lose 7 out of every 8 games without them there.

I'll be curious ot see how this team's attitude shapes up the rest of the way. Funny how players and fans rip management when they threw in the towel and gave it up, but when these same players go through the motions of playing baseball when it's more like Manuel's 'Corpseball' and no one seems to find fault with that because, afterall, they did lose their 2 best players.


Bob

Sox Mobile
08-03-2004, 11:45 AM
Anyone who thinks we would have lost all 4 of the recent 1 run losses if Frank and Magglio were in the lineup is out of their frigging minds.

Our injuries are not excuses for losing, they are the reasons.

Frank, heal thyself!

DVsoxfan
08-03-2004, 12:13 PM
Orignally posted by: StepsInSC
No team in Major League Baseball could survive a production like this. Out of curiosity, in the months that Maggs and Frank were together healthy, how many runs did they combine to produce? They are the heart and soul of our line-up, when healthy, one of the best in the business. But with the two of them gone, this team is significantly weaker. Sorry, I don't buy it.
The Twins don't have any big time power hitters like Frank or Maggs. They play as a team, everyone chips in. I wish we could do the same. It would be nice to know that we can win without relying so heavily on the long ball.

Deadguy
08-03-2004, 01:41 PM
August is here, clean slate lets put the past behind us. There's still plenty of baseball left, but if the sox fall flat on there ass once again, the number one reason we'll be hearing the whole offseason is it's because Frank and Maggs went down. Thats BS, sorry but thats no excuse. I sure hope the sox dont look at this season as a lost cause, but instead look at it as an opportunity to flourish during a bad situation. It's called stepping up, and thats what the sox gotta do, right now.
I tend to agree. I remember Hawk had a saying back in the mid 1990s: "If Frank didn't do it, it just didn't get done." I remember in 1996, when Thomas went on the DL, the Sox were just 6-12 without him, and ended up blowing a 4.5 game lead on Baltimore in the WC race.

Times have changed, though. Thomas is entering his late 30s, past his prime, and it should no longer be expected of him as being the guy to carry the team. We are 5 years removed from the "Kids Can Play" campaign, and guys like Lee and Konerko should be capable of picking up the slack, and become veteran leaders on this team. They are no longer 22 or 23 years old. They are in their late 20s, and have more than enough experience to carry the responsibility leading this team in a divisional race. These players should have been groomed over the past 5 years to handle these type of responsibilities, not just look for other guys to carry the load or babysit them if they fall into a funk.

While losing Magglio and Thomas is tough, we have added other veteran presences such as Freddy Garcia and Carl Everett to help carry the burden, and hopefully Hernandez can step it up, and perform better than Loaiza did. We also have the veteran presences of Alomar and Valentin.

Mickster
08-03-2004, 01:42 PM
and hopefully Hernandez can step it up, and perform better than Loaiza did.
Contreras???? :?:

RKMeibalane
08-03-2004, 03:24 PM
I tend to agree. I remember Hawk had a saying back in the mid 1990s: "If Frank didn't do it, it just didn't get done."
I can't help getting the feeling that this is still true. Think about it. How many times have we seen Frank serve as the only source of offense in a particular game? How many times have we seen Frank be the only hitter to do any damage against an opposing pitcher. I can think of several examples from the past two seasons alone:

April 25, 2003: Twins starter Joe Mays nearly no-hit the Sox on this night. Frank provided the only offense with a solo home run in the seventh inning.

May 11, 2003: Once again, the Sox were nearly no-hit by an opposing pitcher. And once again, it was Thomas who provided the only sign of life from an otherwise dead offense, hitting a solo home run in the sixth inning against Jamie Moyer.

June 5, 2003: Thomas drove in two of the three Sox runs on this night, including the game-winner with an RBI double in the tenth inning. Thomas had earlier hit his 11th homer of the season in the sixth.

August 18, 2003: Thomas drove home all four Chicago runs on this evening, blasting two home runs against Angels' starter Jarod Washburn. This included a walk-off homer in the bottom of the ninth inning, which sent the fans home happy.

September 11, 2003: As Sox saw their season begin to unravel, Frank Thomas was busy achieving another milestone, hitting his 40th home run of the season off of Brad Radtke.

September 20, 2003: The Sox were defeated by the Royals 9-1 during this Saturday-night disaster. Guess who provided the run?

April 24, 2004: The Sox were, once again, shut down by a no-name pitcher. This time, it was Cy Waechter of Tampa Bay. When he wasn't being thrown at, Thomas crushed a solo home run into the left field seats.

May 2, 2004: Rather than allow his team to be shut down by Miguel Batista, Thomas took matters into his own hands, drilling one into the left-center field bleachers. Somehow, the Sox actually managed to win this game.

May 15, 2004: The Sox lost a frustrating game to the Twins, with Thomas being the only player to show up. On the first pitch of the fourth inning, Thomas took the Twins starter downtown.

StepsInSC
08-03-2004, 04:07 PM
The Twins don't have any big time power hitters like Frank or Maggs. They play as a team, everyone chips in. I wish we could do the same. It would be nice to know that we can win without relying so heavily on the long ball.
I was just thinking that the Twins are probably one of the few major contenders who don't have 2 big name hitters on their team. They are a "team" though, not just a collection of players.

I think the biggest problem from a fans perspective is this: remember before the season started, how we were pretty sure that all of the unprovens on this team would suck? Well, they got off to a good start and remaining true to our fickle nature we dubbed everyone a success, but now that they're playing like they've played their entire careers, all of a sudden they're "underperforming".

Uribe, Harris, Valentin, Crede, Davis, etc.. they've all been sucking recently, but I don't think they've been underperforming as none of them have ever been great hitters. Its even more unfortunate that they all come back down to earth once we lose Maggs and Thomas.

chisox06
08-03-2004, 04:56 PM
If we're going to start making excuses as to why we aren't going to win, then why didn't we pull a White Flag trade to begin with. This team already has the 'feel sorry for themselves, losers mentality.'

If they think they're going to lose, then I can tell you that they're 100% right. Season is over. If they honestly think they can catch Minnesota then they need to stop the 'woe is me' attitude and using Frank and Magglio as excuses. It is what it is. It sucks. But doesn't it suck worse then if the team feels sorry for itself and gives up? Because after reading Ozzie's comments in the paper the last week that is exactly what's happened. So these players will collec their paychecks and feel sorry for themselves the rest of the way.

Besides if KW is truly the great GM many think he is, then team shouldn't fall of the cliff like they have recently. No doubt they'll win more with both in the lineup (or even just one) but does it mean that they can lose 7 out of every 8 games without them there.

I'll be curious ot see how this team's attitude shapes up the rest of the way. Funny how players and fans rip management when they threw in the towel and gave it up, but when these same players go through the motions of playing baseball when it's more like Manuel's 'Corpseball' and no one seems to find fault with that because, afterall, they did lose their 2 best players.


BobI think you pretty much hit my point right on the head Bob. Bottom line is that Frank and Maggs are the two best hitters on this team, and their gone, you have 2 choices, tell yourself theres no way we can win now or suck it up and play through it. One thing is if you mentally defeat yourself (and this is relevant in any situaiton) then your going to fail. My point is the season is not over, and I still believe we have a team capable of going to the postseason despite these huge setbacks, but its up to Oz and the players to strap it down for the next month and beyond. Im not sure whether or not the sox will catch the twins, but I'll guarantee you if this team takes on the mentality that theres no hope without Thomas and Ordonez, then there really isn't. No excuses, GET IR DONE!

MisterB
08-03-2004, 05:09 PM
II think the biggest problem from a fans perspective is this: remember before the season started, how we were pretty sure that all of the unprovens on this team would suck? Well, they got off to a good start and remaining true to our fickle nature we dubbed everyone a success, but now that they're playing like they've played their entire careers, all of a sudden they're "underperforming".

Uribe, Harris, Valentin, Crede, Davis, etc.. they've all been sucking recently, but I don't think they've been underperforming as none of them have ever been great hitters. Its even more unfortunate that they all come back down to earth once we lose Maggs and Thomas.
In my assessment, guys like Harris, Uribe, Perez and Crede are underperforming even their poor stats from before this season. In fact all 4 plus Valentin hit sub-.200/.235/.300 in July (except for Harris' .333 obp).

oheeoh...magglio
08-03-2004, 05:26 PM
I don't buy this argument. Any team that loses it's 2 best hitters is going to be SEVERELY affected offensively, simple as that.

Do you think the Marlins would have won the wild card last year if Pudge Rodriguez and Miguel Cabrera had been on the shelf the last 2 months of the 2003 season?

gosox41
08-03-2004, 11:14 PM
I don't buy this argument. Any team that loses it's 2 best hitters is going to be SEVERELY affected offensively, simple as that.

Do you think the Marlins would have won the wild card last year if Pudge Rodriguez and Miguel Cabrera had been on the shelf the last 2 months of the 2003 season?
But it's not a reason for the rest of the team to give up. If you read some of Ozzie's quotes last week, it sounds to me like they did just that.



Bob

Kilroy
08-04-2004, 01:31 AM
But it's not a reason for the rest of the team to give up. If you read some of Ozzie's quotes last week, it sounds to me like they did just that.



Bob
Ozzie can barely speak english. Sometimes what he says may not be what he meant. And everything looks and sounds ****ty in the middle of a 7-game skid...

AP&D'sDad
08-04-2004, 08:48 AM
Hello All - been a "lurker" for a long time and did just register......

A couple of points from an very good indsider in the White Sox organization...

This information is valid for I was told of the following...before it happened...

(1) Ozzie would be the manager
(2) Seattle wanted Miguel all along
(3) Crazy Carl is coming and ELO is out of here

Here is what I heard recently

(1) Frank should be back in 3 weeks
(2) If the Sox go on a tear and can get within a couple of games of both the
Central Lead and Wildcard.....Kendall is coming...via a waiver/trade.:D:
(3) The general opinion on the Maggs situation is not very favorable and some
questions have been raised as to his dedication, attitude and the ability to
play through pain.

Thanks.

Cubbiesuck13
08-04-2004, 09:47 AM
Hello All - been a "lurker" for a long time and did just register......

A couple of points from an very good indsider in the White Sox organization...

This information is valid for I was told of the following...before it happened...

(1) Ozzie would be the manager
(2) Seattle wanted Miguel all along
(3) Crazy Carl is coming and ELO is out of here

Here is what I heard recently

(1) Frank should be back in 3 weeks
(2) If the Sox go on a tear and can get within a couple of games of both the
Central Lead and Wildcard.....Kendall is coming...via a waiver/trade.:D:
(3) The general opinion on the Maggs situation is not very favorable and some
questions have been raised as to his dedication, attitude and the ability to
play through pain.

Thanks.
who are you and how do you know these tales that you speak of?

ChiSoxBobette
08-04-2004, 09:50 AM
August is here, clean slate lets put the past behind us. There's still plenty of baseball left, but if the sox fall flat on there ass once again, the number one reason we'll be hearing the whole offseason is it's because Frank and Maggs went down. Thats BS, sorry but thats no excuse. I sure hope the sox dont look at this season as a lost cause, but instead look at it as an opportunity to flourish during a bad situation. It's called stepping up, and thats what the sox gotta do, right now.

The young guys it's your turn to have the spotlight for a while, if you want it. Rowand, Crede, Borchard, Willie, Uribe, Timo your the keys to this team. We all know Paulie and Lee are going to continue to produce, they've proven they can do it.

The wildcard for the rest of the season is Ozzie. Under JM I dont think the sox could come out on top over a blow like this, but I think Ozzie has the ability to light a fire under these guys.

In August the sox have 20 games against teams under .500. And have 8 games with teams above.

The Twins have 9 games against sub .500 teams and have 19 with teams above it.

So the time to gain ground is now. 5 games is not that much, especially considering how the schedule favors the sox. Sure losing Frank and Maggs hurts, but that shouldn't be an excuse to lose rather motivation to continue winning. However, losing 7 games in a row doesn't do much for my confidence.
I don't know how you could think that loosing Maggs & Frank is'nt an excuse. Out of those ballplayers you mention as having to step up Uribe was only supposed to be a utility player for us at the beginning of the year and Teemo Perez was bench help, as far as Willie Harris I don't think you'll see him next year playing for the White Sox Ozzie has all but said that a couple of weeks ago when he said in an interview we needed a leadoff hitter and he was going to tell KW that , thats what Harris supposed to be this year. The other player we might not see next year is Crede yeah he's a great fielder but he has to at least hit .280/.290 with 25hrs & 80rbi's and with that swing I don't think its going to happen, and lastly Borchard I think we sent the wrong player to the M's in the trade for Freddy Garcia if the M's would have taken Borchard we should have done it he's never going to be better than a good minor league player.So that leaves us Aaron Rowand who I think has come into his own finally he's our CF and leadoff man. So out of the six players you mention as having to step up theres actually one , Joe Crede, who really is a disappointment because the other players are not or were they supposed to be anything but utility or bench help they were'nt expected to be starting players who would get us to the playoffs and we should'nt expect those players to do that as it is Uribe & Perez have done way more than we thought they could or should have done if this team was healthy. So hell yeah loosing Maggs & Frank killed us.You show me another baseball team that would'nt be where we are if they lost thier two most productive offensive threats , its pretty hard to survive when your #3 & #4 hitters are gone from your lineup.