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View Full Version : Shouldnt we have waived the white flag?


habibharu
08-02-2004, 12:50 PM
looking back at the trade deadline, i believe that KW should of swallowed his pride and waived the white flag. he should of packaged PK, (since his value right now is high as it is gonna be), with loaiza along with scho. and gotten back from the yanks cotreras, navarro(stud C in the minors, who should be ready for the majors next yr) and Cano(pretty good 2b prospect in the yanks system). I have no doubt that the yanks would have done this trade. we all know that they dont give a **** about prospects and with them trying to sign olerud, there is no doubt that they need a 1b. this trade gives a young, stud C, and a promising 2b who is very close to the majors

CHI_SOX_4_LIFE
08-02-2004, 12:54 PM
looking back at the trade deadline, i believe that KW should of swallowed his pride and waived the white flag. he should of packaged PK, (since his value right now is high as it is gonna be), with loaiza along with scho. and gotten back from the yanks cotreras, navarro(stud C in the minors, who should be ready for the majors next yr) and Cano(pretty good 2b prospect in the yanks system). I have no doubt that the yanks would have done this trade. we all know that they dont give a **** about prospects and with them trying to sign olerud, there is no doubt that they need a 1b. this trade gives a young, stud C, and a promising 2b who is very close to the majors

I dont know about that one, and I know many Chi Sox fans would absolutely despise KW for that kind of trade.

Mickster
08-02-2004, 12:56 PM
looking back at the trade deadline, i believe that KW should of swallowed his pride and waived the white flag. he should of packaged PK, (since his value right now is high as it is gonna be), with loaiza along with scho. and gotten back from the yanks cotreras, navarro(stud C in the minors, who should be ready for the majors next yr) and Cano(pretty good 2b prospect in the yanks system). I have no doubt that the yanks would have done this trade. we all know that they dont give a **** about prospects and with them trying to sign olerud, there is no doubt that they need a 1b. this trade gives a young, stud C, and a promising 2b who is very close to the majors
According to many reports, Navarro is not a 'stud' like some have hoped. If Navarro and Cano were so good, don't you think that AZ wouldn't have pulled off this trade for RJ? I bet NY would have even paid all of Contreras' contract......

habibharu
08-02-2004, 12:59 PM
According to many reports, Navarro is not a 'stud' like some have hoped. If Navarro and Cano were so good, don't you think that AZ wouldn't have pulled off this trade for RJ? I bet NY would have even paid all of Contreras' contract...... yeah well PK is not RJ!

wdelaney72
08-02-2004, 01:00 PM
looking back at the trade deadline, i believe that KW should of swallowed his pride and waived the white flag. he should of packaged PK, (since his value right now is high as it is gonna be), with loaiza along with scho. and gotten back from the yanks cotreras, navarro(stud C in the minors, who should be ready for the majors next yr) and Cano(pretty good 2b prospect in the yanks system). I have no doubt that the yanks would have done this trade. we all know that they dont give a **** about prospects and with them trying to sign olerud, there is no doubt that they need a 1b. this trade gives a young, stud C, and a promising 2b who is very close to the majors
Prospects are suspects. If these Yankees prospects are so great, how come RJ isn't in pinstripes?

The Sox learned from a previous mistake that their fans don't respond well to a white flag trade. I'd be surprised to see the Sox do such a dramatic fire sale again. Plus, KW just doesn't seem to have that in him.

However, I'm not against trading Paulie in the off-season. He's done a nice job this year, but I'd rather have a left-handed stick at 1B with Frank sharing duties at 1B more regularly (again, I'm talking about next year).

JDP
08-02-2004, 01:02 PM
According to many reports, Navarro is not a 'stud' like some have hoped. If Navarro and Cano were so good, don't you think that AZ wouldn't have pulled off this trade for RJ? I bet NY would have even paid all of Contreras' contract......
Navarro is a "stud," especially when we developed him here in BC. His numbers were never astronomical, but I had a lot of 1-on-1 time with Dioner, and he definetely has the tools. His jump to AA is not a smooth of a transition as we had hoped for, so he's sort of falling under the LTP scope of prospects -- he's got the gift and tools, but "where the hell are they on a consistent basis" type of prospect.

Dioner is not expected to be at the major league level under at least 2006. He's got himself almost 2 years and 2 levels of play to get it straight.

EDIT: When's the last time an "elite" C prospect came about anyway?

Rocky Soprano
08-02-2004, 01:04 PM
:threadblows:

If you already gave up for the year then you dont have any Sox Pride.

habibharu
08-02-2004, 01:05 PM
EDIT: When's the last time an "elite" C prospect came about anyway? victor martinez!

JDP
08-02-2004, 01:06 PM
If you already gave up for the year then you dont have any Sox Pride.


It is each individual's perrogative to believe what they believe in regards to this year being a wash. However, if that is how some people feel, it is still not a knock on whether they have "pride" for the Sox or not.

habibharu
08-02-2004, 01:08 PM
:threadblows:

If you already gave up for the year then you dont have any Sox Pride. sox pride to me means wanting the sox to do the best they can. and trading for prospects is the best way to go. you can believe anything you want, but deep inside you know that without frank and maggs this team is not even CLOSE to being a WS team!

akingamongstmen
08-02-2004, 01:14 PM
Prospects are suspects. If these Yankees prospects are so great, how come RJ isn't in pinstripes?

The Sox learned from a previous mistake that their fans don't respond well to a white flag trade. I'd be surprised to see the Sox do such a dramatic fire sale again. Plus, KW just doesn't seem to have that in him.

However, I'm not against trading Paulie in the off-season. He's done a nice job this year, but I'd rather have a left-handed stick at 1B with Frank sharing duties at 1B more regularly (again, I'm talking about next year).
After the injuries he's sustained in the last few years, I doubt we'll see Frank play 1B again...ever. Plus, he just isn't interested in it to begin with.

Dadawg_77
08-02-2004, 01:17 PM
Honestly, the Sox should have gotten in the Nomar trade. Konerko is better then Mienhesucksicz and could have pulled a prospects from Cubs and Boston. Unlike 1998, the Sox then taken the money saved next year and spend it on a couple FAs which will boost this team next year such as a J.D Drew, Beltran, Pavano, Radke, Perez. I think this would make the Sox a better team next year then keeping Konerko on the team and the Sox leverage with trading Konerko is higher at the deadline then in the offseason.

Flight #24
08-02-2004, 01:31 PM
Honestly, the Sox should have gotten in the Nomar trade. Konerko is better then Mienhesucksicz and could have pulled a prospects from Cubs and Boston. Unlike 1998, the Sox then taken the money saved next year and spend it on a couple FAs which will boost this team next year such as a J.D Drew, Beltran, Pavano, Radke, Perez. I think this would make the Sox a better team next year then keeping Konerko on the team and the Sox leverage with trading Konerko is higher at the deadline then in the offseason.
I don't think the Sox can afford to give up on this year. They've still got a good shot to pull even with the Twins before that final series, and since supposedly it's likely we'll have Frank back by then, who's to say we dont' make the playoffs.

So you'd be sacrificing a playoff bid for financial flexibility and next year, which would go over like a rock with the resurgent Sox fan base. And IMO that's a key to this whole thing is rebuilding that base so that you can behave more like a major market team.

habibharu
08-02-2004, 01:37 PM
Honestly, the Sox should have gotten in the Nomar trade. Konerko is better then Mienhesucksicz and could have pulled a prospects from Cubs and Boston. Unlike 1998, the Sox then taken the money saved next year and spend it on a couple FAs which will boost this team next year such as a J.D Drew, Beltran, Pavano, Radke, Perez. I think this would make the Sox a better team next year then keeping Konerko on the team and the Sox leverage with trading Konerko is higher at the deadline then in the offseason. i was thinkin that too. but there would be no point unless we could get brownlie from the scrubs since we are not gonna resign nomar

Dadawg_77
08-02-2004, 01:47 PM
I don't think the Sox can afford to give up on this year. They've still got a good shot to pull even with the Twins before that final series, and since supposedly it's likely we'll have Frank back by then, who's to say we dont' make the playoffs.

So you'd be sacrificing a playoff bid for financial flexibility and next year, which would go over like a rock with the resurgent Sox fan base. And IMO that's a key to this whole thing is rebuilding that base so that you can behave more like a major market team.
I don't like our shot, the Twins just upgraded at first and Stewart just game back. Sox still have a chance, but I think Twins will play .500 ball the rest of the way out, thus the Sox need to go at least 36-24. That is a stretch great playing this team hasn't done since 2000.

Flight #24
08-02-2004, 02:01 PM
I don't like our shot, the Twins just upgraded at first and Stewart just game back. Sox still have a chance, but I think Twins will play .500 ball the rest of the way out, thus the Sox need to go at least 36-24. That is a stretch great playing this team hasn't done since 2000.
With many team's, you'd be right. but the history of this team makes it nearly impossible to pull a trade like that when there's a reasonable chance that you can make the playoffs. 3.5 out of the WC, 5 out of the division isn't "game over", so whiule it may be a bit of a longshot, the PR hit the team would take would be humungous, and woudl likely destroy any and all good vibes and attendance benefits that we built up this year.

soxtalker
08-02-2004, 02:04 PM
I think that our chances are pretty slim with Frank and Maggs out. However, KW can't do a white-flag trade yet. The majority of fans and media would be furious. Besides, if the Sox do fall further back in the next few weeks, he can probably pull off a waiver deal or two. I suspect that anything he does will not just be aimed at restocking the farm, but also changing the overall approach of the team.

skobabe8
08-02-2004, 02:11 PM
I don't like our shot, the Twins just upgraded at first and Stewart just game back. Sox still have a chance, but I think Twins will play .500 ball the rest of the way out, thus the Sox need to go at least 36-24. That is a stretch great playing this team hasn't done since 2000.

You're nuts...Look at the schedules. Both teams could go .500 the rest of the way. Its the 6 remaining head to head games that will win or lose the division.

habibharu
08-02-2004, 03:06 PM
the only way that we are ever gonna win is by retooling our farm system and hoping that some of our highly touted prospects pan out. until that happens, we are probably gonna be "in it" every year, since our division is weak as hell, but will never win anything with the team the way it currently is! if you follow the minors at all you probably know that the twins have one of the best if not the best systems in baseball. and the tribe is probably in the top five as well. if we dont build up our farm system, we will never be able to compete with guys like santana, morneau, cuddyer, kubel

Dadawg_77
08-02-2004, 03:28 PM
You're nuts...Look at the schedules. Both teams could go .500 the rest of the way. Its the 6 remaining head to head games that will win or lose the division.
While that is tempting to look at the Sox need to make up some ground before they play the Twins. With pitcher like Santana and Radke you can't go into series with the Twins needing a sweep and expect to be successful.

Flight #24
08-02-2004, 03:31 PM
the only way that we are ever gonna win is by retooling our farm system and hoping that some of our highly touted prospects pan out. until that happens, we are probably gonna be "in it" every year, since our division is weak as hell, but will never win anything with the team the way it currently is! if you follow the minors at all you probably know that the twins have one of the best if not the best systems in baseball. and the tribe is probably in the top five as well. if we dont build up our farm system, we will never be able to compete with guys like santana, morneau, cuddyer, kubel
Cuddyer's been a part-timer for 2 years now and hasn't exactly set the world on fire yet (.251BA / .750OPS). And he's not exactly a great fielder. Kubel's going to have a hard time finding a spot to play with Ford, Hunter, Stewart. And anyway, it's going to be hard for them to beat the performance they're getting so far from the starting OF.

The point being that the Twins may have some excellent prospects, but it's highly unlikely that they are all major contributors next year. And if not, they'll take a hit as some guys leave. Maybe in 2 years they'll be better, but that will depend on these guys becoming what they're touted to be - which often doesn't happen.

Meanwhile, if the Sox can have some success, we'll be able to add better than them via FA. Plus, our pitching will be better for next year and likely 1-2 years after.

Remember this - if we can add a bit of OBP at the top of the order, and get Frank back I'd rate out O as better than theirs. And our starters will be better than theirs. Add in decent veteran middle relief and we'd (again) be a more talented team.

Flight #24
08-02-2004, 03:35 PM
While that is tempting to look at the Sox need to make up some ground before they play the Twins. With pitcher like Santana and Radke you can't go into series with the Twins needing a sweep and expect to be successful.
True, but if we can go 4-2 against them in H2H, we need to pick up 4 games to win outright. I can easily see picking up 2 games this week alone with us playing KC/CLE and they OAK/ANA.

It all depends on if our guys can execute better. I believe that now that they're "off the schneid" of the losing streak, they won't press as much and it'll be a lot easier to do. Plus, our pitching should give us great opportunities v. KC, and we've played well against CLE.

Dadawg_77
08-02-2004, 03:53 PM
It all depends on if our guys can execute better. I believe that now that they're "off the schneid" of the losing streak, they won't press as much and it'll be a lot easier to do. Plus, our pitching should give us great opportunities v. KC, and we've played well against CLE.
That is the key, can the White Sox players get it done. Since the ASG break, Sox have hit .250/.304/.426 while Twins have gone .270/.336/.440; Clev .296/.360/.499. I see Clev cooling down some but the Twins are doing about what they have been, so the Sox need to raise there game to match.


Before the break Sox hit .274/.346/.467. While players like Uribe have cooled down, how much of that difference is from Big Hurt being replace by Everett/Gload.

JB98
08-02-2004, 04:15 PM
True, but if we can go 4-2 against them in H2H, we need to pick up 4 games to win outright. I can easily see picking up 2 games this week alone with us playing KC/CLE and they OAK/ANA.

It all depends on if our guys can execute better. I believe that now that they're "off the schneid" of the losing streak, they won't press as much and it'll be a lot easier to do. Plus, our pitching should give us great opportunities v. KC, and we've played well against CLE.
Not to mention, Minnesota has had three five-game losing steaks this year. They could be in line for another. Santana is a stud, but Radke is a .500 pitcher. Their pitching staff is anything but overwhelming. Remember, this Minnesota team has lost three out of four to both Kansas City and Detroit within the last month. They are not invincible. We have to play this out all the way to the end and see what happens. There was one stretch in late June/early July where we gained six games in six days. You never know. I think a division championship for this White Sox team is unlikely, but there is still a perception left over from 1997 that we are quitters on the South Side. I don't want to reinforce that in anyway. I'm not expecting miracles, but I'm not a quitter either.

Furthermore, you do not trade the league's leading home run hitter for B-grade prospects. The only reason Navarro is highly-touted is because he is Yankee property. He is the best of a very poor minor-league system. Those of you who think our system is weak should see the Yankees.

jordan23ventura
08-02-2004, 05:09 PM
With many team's, you'd be right. but the history of this team makes it nearly impossible to pull a trade like that when there's a reasonable chance that you can make the playoffs. 3.5 out of the WC, 5 out of the division isn't "game over", so whiule it may be a bit of a longshot, the PR hit the team would take would be humungous, and woudl likely destroy any and all good vibes and attendance benefits that we built up this year.
I completely agree with everything you just said. Was about to post almost the exact same thing actually, but you beat me to it.

OEO Magglio
08-02-2004, 05:13 PM
:threadblows:

That about sums it up.

Whitesox029
08-02-2004, 06:54 PM
I dont know about that one, and I know many Chi Sox fans would absolutely despise KW for that kind of trade.Myself included. For those of you who don't know my view on rent-a-player deadline trades, I think it's one of the dumbest things to happen to baseball in a long time. Neither team benefits because one loses a key player for seasons to come and the other loses prospects, and then 50% of the time doesn't even sign the player they acquired.
analogy: Here, I'll give you my original painting by Vincent Van Gogh if you give me six paintings by no-name artists who have a 10% chance of becoming famous some day. Then, at the end of three months, you have to donate the Van Gogh to an auction and outbid 29 other people for it if you want it back.