PDA

View Full Version : Jayson Stark: NY are Trade Losers


Mickster
08-02-2004, 11:20 AM
Interesting read on the Contreras-Elo trade can be found HERE (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?columnist=stark_jayson&id=1850117).

Said one scout:

But he's also "not throwing very well," warned one AL scout. "He's lost velocity since last year."

And another scout, asked to compare Loaiza's stuff to Contreras' stuff, said: "Not only does Contreras have better stuff. It's two grades better. Contreras has No. 1 stuff if he can ever figure out a way to be more consistent. If I'm the Yankees, I wouldn't feel real good at all about running Loaiza out there in October. He's a guy who has had one good year. And it just happened to be his contract year."

JDP
08-02-2004, 11:25 AM
Two grades better indeed, perhaps the nastiest forkballs in the league, complimented with a mid-90s fastball. Contreras, right now, is jumbled either in the head or mechanically (or both?), but if he starts pitching instead of throwing, he just might be the most dominating pitcher the Sox have ever had.


Hows that for opening up a can of worms and heated debates? =}

gosox41
08-02-2004, 11:27 AM
Two grades better indeed, perhaps the nastiest forkballs in the league, complimented with a mid-90s fastball. Contreras, right now, is jumbled either in the head or mechanically (or both?), but if he starts pitching instead of throwing, he just might be the most dominating pitcher the Sox have ever had.


Hows that for opening up a can of worms and heated debates? =}
I don't know about being the most domianting pitcher the SOx ever had, but he can be a #1 if he learns to step it up in big games.


Bob

Tekijawa
08-02-2004, 11:29 AM
Two grades better indeed, perhaps the nastiest forkballs in the league, complimented with a mid-90s fastball. Contreras, right now, is jumbled either in the head or mechanically (or both?), but if he starts pitching instead of throwing, he just might be the most dominating pitcher the Sox have ever had.


Hows that for opening up a can of worms and heated debates? =}
I'll raise the bar and say the greatest pitcher in the history of EARTH!:o:

JDP
08-02-2004, 11:33 AM
I don't know about being the most domianting pitcher the SOx ever had, but he can be a #1 if he learns to step it up in big games.


Bob
Then opening it further ... who have the Sox franchise had that has been the most dominating thus far?

jackbrohamer
08-02-2004, 11:36 AM
The Sox are 100+ years old and have had a bunch of dominating pitchers. And one of the most dominating ever in Ed Walsh who went 40-15, 1.42 ERA in 1908. If Contreras does that with the Sox, hats off...............

JDP
08-02-2004, 11:40 AM
The Sox are 100+ years old and have had a bunch of dominating pitchers. And one of the most dominating ever in Ed Walsh who went 40-15, 1.42 ERA in 1908. If Contreras does that with the Sox, hats off...............
Trouble is, many SP and their mothers pitched that many games in the deadball area and put up similar stats.

WSox8404
08-02-2004, 11:42 AM
Well I hope he can at least be our number three behind Garcia and Mark. If so, then this trade will be a success.

JDP
08-02-2004, 11:43 AM
Here's a good tidbit/trivia:

Who, in the Sox history, has the best K/9 ratio?

illiniwhitesox
08-02-2004, 11:55 AM
I'll raise the bar and say the greatest pitcher in the history of EARTH!:o:
:?: Oh No! We're starting to sound like Cubs fans when they hype the great white hype - Kerry Woods

gosox41
08-02-2004, 11:57 AM
Then opening it further ... who have the Sox franchise had that has been the most dominating thus far?
IN terms of one season, one of my all time favorites: LaMarr Hoyt. He seemed untouchable in 1983 (though I do have a selective memory)


I'm too young to see the guys of the '60's but the Sox were always a team built on pitching up until the late '90's.



Bob

fquaye149
08-02-2004, 12:02 PM
the best pitcher ever to pitch for us was PROBABLY tom seaver.

Billy Pierce is probably the best modern era Sox pitcher though.

thecell
08-02-2004, 12:02 PM
Here's a good tidbit/trivia:

Who, in the Sox history, has the best K/9 ratio?Good ole Jason Bere. 7.5/9

(I had to cheat) :)

jabrch
08-02-2004, 12:10 PM
Given that Loaiza had a lousy start of the year, this was a no-lose situation for us. Who knows what Contreras will be? There is lots of reason to believe he has updside - out of NY, with a strong latino presence in the team/management/rotation, family close to him, etc. Right now, if he can be a #3/#4 type guy, that's great. Who knows what we can make out of him for the future.

gosox41
08-02-2004, 01:33 PM
the best pitcher ever to pitch for us was PROBABLY tom seaver.

Billy Pierce is probably the best modern era Sox pitcher though.
How about the best pitcher to pitch with us that was dominating while wearing a Sox uniform? Seaver is my all time favorite pitcher, but he didn't dominate in a Sox uniform.


Bob

KingXerxes
08-02-2004, 01:40 PM
How about the best pitcher to pitch with us that was dominating while wearing a Sox uniform? Seaver is my all time favorite pitcher, but he didn't dominate in a Sox uniform.


BobRich Gossage as a reliever in 1975 - and we still managed to trade him.

JB98
08-02-2004, 01:41 PM
IN terms of one season, one of my all time favorites: LaMarr Hoyt. He seemed untouchable in 1983 (though I do have a selective memory)
That's the name I come up with too, although I was a Little Leaguer at the time. For one season, there was nobody better. When we were playing well in the early 90s, I thought Fernandez was the pitcher most capable of dominating. McDowell didn't have the type of stuff that Alex did. Black Jack always won because he was one of the tougher competitors you'll ever see. If only someone could inject that competitive spirit into Jon Garland, we'd have ourselves quite a pitcher.

gosox41
08-02-2004, 01:44 PM
That's the name I come up with too, although I was a Little Leaguer at the time. For one season, there was nobody better. When we were playing well in the early 90s, I thought Fernandez was the pitcher most capable of dominating. McDowell didn't have the type of stuff that Alex did. Black Jack always won because he was one of the tougher competitors you'll ever see. If only someone could inject that competitive spirit into Jon Garland, we'd have ourselves quite a pitcher.

I know of a person I think can inject some intensity into JG:

:pudge




Bob

wdelaney72
08-02-2004, 01:46 PM
Well I hope he can at least be our number three behind Garcia and Mark. If so, then this trade will be a success.
Given his career to date, Contreras as a #3 is VERY optimistic.

JDP
08-02-2004, 01:47 PM
Good ole Jason Bere. 7.5/9

(I had to cheat) :)
How sad and how true.

pudge
08-02-2004, 01:51 PM
Trouble is, many SP and their mothers pitched that many games in the deadball area and put up similar stats.
Yeah but Ed Walsh helped us beat the Cubs in '06 - until someone else does that in a World Series, Big Ed is tops in my book. :cool:

JDP
08-02-2004, 01:55 PM
LaMarr Hoyt in '83
36 starts: 24-10, 3.66 ERA, 260 2/3 IP, 236 Hs, 27 HRs, 31/148 BBs/Ks

Is that constitutional of "dominating" ?

Flight #24
08-02-2004, 01:57 PM
Given his career to date, Contreras as a #3 is VERY optimistic.
Well, after his 2003 season, you'd have pegged hiim as a solid #2 with upside. So far this year, he's been a bad #3 or 4. But his games are so variable, and his bad outing so bad that I actually think he's pitched better than his #s. In 50-70% of games, he has high quality outings, and the remainder gets shelled. So despite the high ERA, he's a >.500 pitcher with upside, which is a solid # 4 starter.

Now at 6mil/yr, he'd better improve some to be at least a solid #3.

JDP
08-02-2004, 01:57 PM
Given his career to date, Contreras as a #3 is VERY optimistic.
Yes, career-to-date, very optimistic. Question arisen was the "if" he gets himself into gear and pitches (not throws) to his amount of talent.....

JDP
08-02-2004, 01:58 PM
Well, after his 2003 season, you'd have pegged hiim as a solid #2 with upside. So far this year, he's been a bad #3 or 4. But his games are so variable, and his bad outing so bad that I actually think he's pitched better than his #s. In 50-70% of games, he has high quality outings, and the remainder gets shelled. So despite the high ERA, he's a >.500 pitcher with upside, which is a solid # 4 starter.

Now at 6mil/yr, he'd better improve some to be at least a solid #3.

I guess we'll see when the Contreras-Era begins tomorrow night in KC. =}

SoxxoS
08-02-2004, 02:02 PM
Yes, career-to-date, very optimistic. Question arisen was the "if" he gets himself into gear and pitches (not throws) to his amount of talent.....
As long as we don't play Boston, I would take a 3.50 ERA as our #3 starter.

jackbrohamer
08-02-2004, 02:05 PM
Trouble is, many SP and their mothers pitched that many games in the deadball area and put up similar stats.
Actually, just one, Jack Chesbro for the 1904 NY Highlanders.

Dadawg_77
08-02-2004, 02:30 PM
How sad and how true.
He would have been great if his arm didn't blow out.

DumpJerry
08-02-2004, 02:58 PM
LaMarr Hoyt in '83
36 starts: 24-10, 3.66 ERA, 260 2/3 IP, 236 Hs, 27 HRs, 31/148 BBs/Ks

Remember, 5 of those 31 BB's were intentional. Hoyt had the ball under some sort of remote control that year, totally untouchable!

I think we came out ahead on the trade. Of course, if it were not for WSI, there would be no news about the trade because the Flubs got some shortstop with a negative attitude and injuries...........

We came out ahead because Contreras can't be worse than Elo. Elo was not taking us to the level we need to get to the playoffs. Also, the contract situation plays in our favor.

While the Flubs are the team for the freaks, cell-phone yuppies and drunks, we are becoming the team for ethnic groups: Japanese (Shingo) Cuban (Contreras) and Hispanic in general (60% of the roster). It's all in the marketing.......:smile:

petekat
08-02-2004, 05:28 PM
recall a little more than 2 yrs ago- he was the most sought after pitcher in baseball, the object of a bidding war between the Yanks and BoSox. Funny how quickly the Yanks soured on him. And Este was a spring training invitee that nobody would touch.

Best case scenario- Este has a so-so, or subpar stretch run, the Yanks tire of him, and he resigns with the Sox. Este is leaving on good terms and has stated that we would consider reupping with the Sox.