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View Full Version : Why do people think Hendry gave up nothing for Nomar?


OEO Magglio
08-02-2004, 03:20 AM
Ok this has really been bugging me, when I keep hearing that Hendry gave up nothing to get Nomar. Hendry gave up four players, Justin Jones who ba has rated as the cubs 2nd best prospect when the year started, brendan harris who was rated the 8th best spect in their system, francis beltran who is supposed to be their closer of the future and alex gonzalez well he's nothing special but an added player in the deal. So how is this nothing for an overrated player who over the last 3 years is batting .267 outside of fenway. Granted I do think this was a good trade for the cubs, however they did give up a lot. Now Kenny Williams gives up 3 guys two of which are good prospects(if you consider Olivo a prospect) and another who is a descent prospect for an ace pitcher and yet there is the notion that kenny overpaid while Hendry gave up absolutely nothing. I've heard the same people here and on sports radio talk about how Kenny overpaid and Hendry is a genius and gave up nothing.



Ok, vent over, sorry everyone had to get that off my chest.

StockdaleForVeep
08-02-2004, 03:38 AM
Ok this has really been bugging me, when I keep hearing that Hendry gave up nothing to get Nomar. Hendry gave up four players, Justin Jones who ba has rated as the cubs 2nd best prospect when the year started, brendan harris who was rated the 8th best spect in their system, francis beltran who is supposed to be their closer of the future and alex gonzalez well he's nothing special but an added player in the deal. So how is this nothing for an overrated player who over the last 3 years is batting .267 outside of fenway. Granted I do think this was a good trade for the cubs, however they did give up a lot. Now Kenny Williams gives up 3 guys two of which are good prospects(if you consider Olivo a prospect) and another who is a descent prospect for an ace pitcher and yet there is the notion that kenny overpaid while Hendry gave up absolutely nothing. I've heard the same people here and on sports radio talk about how Kenny overpaid and Hendry is a genius and gave up nothing.



Ok, vent over, sorry everyone had to get that off my chest.
I believe justin jones was a left handed pitcher, unless mlb is reportin this wrong, but then again, the whole transaction is confusing to me. I have no clue how minnesota weasled in to get a piece of the action.

Also, this is even a bigger blow to the scrubs should they NOT resign nomar, so then in actuality they will be net -1 i believe and only keeping 1 minor league player but i dont know the stats on matt murton, whom they also got with nomar.

What will be even a biggest joke for this trade is the cubs missin post season. Then nomar can finally become a yankee.

OEO Magglio
08-02-2004, 03:55 AM
I believe justin jones was a left handed pitcher, unless mlb is reportin this wrong, but then again, the whole transaction is confusing to me. I have no clue how minnesota weasled in to get a piece of the action.

Also, this is even a bigger blow to the scrubs should they NOT resign nomar, so then in actuality they will be net -1 i believe and only keeping 1 minor league player but i dont know the stats on matt murton, whom they also got with nomar.

What will be even a biggest joke for this trade is the cubs missin post season. Then nomar can finally become a yankee.Jones is a left handed pitcher, he was 19 when the year started I believe and is now 20, he's supposed to be pretty good. I think the trade was a good one for the flubs because I'm big on going for it this year, all I'm saying is the cubs did give up a descent package, it wasn't nothing as seem people claim.

StockdaleForVeep
08-02-2004, 04:10 AM
Jones is a left handed pitcher, he was 19 when the year started I believe and is now 20, he's supposed to be pretty good. I think the trade was a good one for the flubs because I'm big on going for it this year, all I'm saying is the cubs did give up a descent package, it wasn't nothing as seem people claim.
Yeah but you said his BA unless you didnt mean batting avg or that he had a good BA for a pitcher.

OEO Magglio
08-02-2004, 04:25 AM
Yeah but you said his BA unless you didnt mean batting avg or that he had a good BA for a pitcher.BA= Baseball America, I should have clarified that.:smile:

StockdaleForVeep
08-02-2004, 04:34 AM
BA= Baseball America, I should have clarified that.:smile:

Eh i was wrong twice, i realized then u didnt mean bat avg but i thought u ment baseball analysts

Either way i stick by my thesis statement in baseball life. A prospect means nothing till theyre proven. Hell im a prospect to a degree, you dont see the yanks forkin a penny to let me try and field and that goes from AAA to indy\washout leagues.

jeremyb1
08-02-2004, 04:34 AM
I don't know. Harris and Beltran are really just B grade prospects in my opinion. They're like Rauch, not like Reed or Olivo. I hadn't even heard of Jones or realized he was in the deal until I read this thread but he doesn't look all that spectacular. Who rated him number two in the Cubs system? It seems really odd as a player in the low minors, that lasted til the second round, and hasn't really accomplished much in pro ball.

OEO Magglio
08-02-2004, 04:48 AM
I don't know. Harris and Beltran are really just B grade prospects in my opinion. They're like Rauch, not like Reed or Olivo. I hadn't even heard of Jones or realized he was in the deal until I read this thread but he doesn't look all that spectacular. Who rated him number two in the Cubs system? It seems really odd as a player in the low minors, that lasted til the second round, and hasn't really accomplished much in pro ball.I think Harris is a little better then rauch but that's jmo and Beltran is kind of hard to rate because he is a closer prospect. Jeremy, baseball america had him rate their 2nd best prospect before the year started. Stock I completely agree with you, I'm just trying to make a point that the cubs did in fact give up descent prospects but it's still a very good trade for them.

hsnterprize
08-02-2004, 07:10 AM
Ok this has really been bugging me, when I keep hearing that Hendry gave up nothing to get Nomar. Hendry gave up four players, Justin Jones who ba has rated as the cubs 2nd best prospect when the year started, brendan harris who was rated the 8th best spect in their system, francis beltran who is supposed to be their closer of the future and alex gonzalez well he's nothing special but an added player in the deal. So how is this nothing for an overrated player who over the last 3 years is batting .267 outside of fenway. Granted I do think this was a good trade for the cubs, however they did give up a lot. Now Kenny Williams gives up 3 guys two of which are good prospects(if you consider Olivo a prospect) and another who is a descent prospect for an ace pitcher and yet there is the notion that kenny overpaid while Hendry gave up absolutely nothing. I've heard the same people here and on sports radio talk about how Kenny overpaid and Hendry is a genius and gave up nothing.



Ok, vent over, sorry everyone had to get that off my chest.Here's my answer...there'd been a lot of rumors that Matt Clement would go to Boston for Nomar, and for Cubs fans, giving up a pitcher that's supposed to help out this team over the top would've been more of a sign they were "throwing in the towel". Even though Baseball America and other publications say the prospects the Cubs let go were going to be big in the future, I don't think there's any lamenting over Francis Beltran and Alex Gonzalez going away. Remember...just like it is on the south side...in order to get something, you have to give up something.

Hangar18
08-02-2004, 08:08 AM
The Cubs once again, got away with Murder. They gave up B level players,
THEY DIDNT give up any Highly Regarded Players. If Clement was part of this
deal, it wouldve been an even swap, but Because the BoSox were so desperate to "get rid" of Nomar (and of course, the cubs are no strangers to picking thru the MLB trash, hat in hand, hands outstretched) the Cubs were
once again lucky to give up nothing, and actually get the Best minor leaguer of
all that were traded (Merton). How all of this happened is still pretty unbelievable, but it does show that the Game has changed ...and NOT for the better. KENNY WILLIAMS SHOULDVE MADE THIS TRADE.

Hangar18
08-02-2004, 08:26 AM
What Would George Do? King George, Knowing he needed some Offensive
Spark to offset the HUGE LOSS of Magglio Ordonez, wouldve gotten Nomar.
King George wouldve traded them Jose Valentin (like alexgonzalez, a FA end of yr) King George knowing the "other" team has been stealing thunder from him for the past 20 years, would NEVER have let "other" team get this player.

SOX needed a Top of Order Guy, and a guy with a Thunder in his bat, and
The SOX wouldve killed 2 birds with one stone ........ not to mention a GOLDGLOVER up the middle, something we see our current SS has cost us a few games this year. ahhhhh, but alas, we did nothing. Great.
I hate this team

fquaye149
08-02-2004, 12:12 PM
What Would George Do? King George, Knowing he needed some Offensive
Spark to offset the HUGE LOSS of Magglio Ordonez, wouldve gotten Nomar.
King George wouldve traded them Jose Valentin (like alexgonzalez, a FA end of yr) King George knowing the "other" team has been stealing thunder from him for the past 20 years, would NEVER have let "other" team get this player.

SOX needed a Top of Order Guy, and a guy with a Thunder in his bat, and
The SOX wouldve killed 2 birds with one stone ........ not to mention a GOLDGLOVER up the middle, something we see our current SS has cost us a few games this year. ahhhhh, but alas, we did nothing. Great.
I hate this team

now wait a minute. i'm not the hugest jose fan. in fact i'm hardly a jose fan at all. but why does everyone think that it would have been a great thing to trade away APPARENTLY one of the leaders of this team for a poor fielder whose road splits aren't much better than jose's numbers?

I mean, obviously, PR wise it would be a great move, but would the extra 2,000 a game make up for giving away something for ABOUT the same, maybe less?

ChiWhiteSox1337
08-02-2004, 12:30 PM
The Cubs once again, got away with Murder. They gave up B level players,
THEY DIDNT give up any Highly Regarded Players. If Clement was part of this
deal, it wouldve been an even swap, but Because the BoSox were so desperate to "get rid" of Nomar (and of course, the cubs are no strangers to picking thru the MLB trash, hat in hand, hands outstretched) the Cubs were
once again lucky to give up nothing, and actually get the Best minor leaguer of
all that were traded (Merton). How all of this happened is still pretty unbelievable, but it does show that the Game has changed ...and NOT for the better. KENNY WILLIAMS SHOULDVE MADE THIS TRADE. you're right, the cubs always seem to hype up their prospects like million dollar bobby hill. i didn't hear about any of them other than francis beltran since he was on the cubs major league roster earlier in the season. i don't really know much about minor leaguers, but i know that the cubs are always hyping up guys like pie and guzman and neither of them were involved in this trade

Lip Man 1
08-02-2004, 12:59 PM
OEO:

Because as Baseball America stated less then ten per cent of ALL minor league players ever spend ONE DAY in the big leagues. Less then one per cent of those ever make an impact in the bigs.

When you can trade two 'can't miss kids' who according to the odds are probably not going to do a thing for a quality shortstop (even if it is only for two months) that giving away 'nothing,' in my book.

That's the way major market teams operate.

Hangar:

A Cardinals player was quoted in the St. Louis Post Dispatch as wondering the same things you wonder about with the Cubs. He asked how the Cubs could get Nomar for 'nothing' and mentioned that 'it's like someone is always watching over the Cubs...' I thought you'd enjoy that. The story is in the odds and Ends column in the Sun Times (Quick Hits...)

Lip

Gimm
08-02-2004, 01:06 PM
The SOX wouldve killed 2 birds with one stone ........ not to mention a GOLDGLOVER up the middle
Huh?

The last couple of years, Garciaparra has been worse defensively than Valentin - similar fielding % but much less range.

He misplayed 2 "singles" in his Cub debut yesterday. :bandance:

KingXerxes
08-02-2004, 01:15 PM
OEO:

Because as Baseball America stated less then ten per cent of ALL minor league players ever spend ONE DAY in the big leagues. Less then one per cent of those ever make an impact in the bigs.

When you can trade two 'can't miss kids' who according to the odds are probably not going to do a thing for a quality shortstop (even if it is only for two months) that giving away 'nothing,' in my book.

That's the way major market teams operate.

Lip
Amen Lip.

When I think back to all the "can't miss kids" we hung onto over the years - man it's depressing.

BlackAndWhite
08-02-2004, 02:42 PM
I believe justin jones was a left handed pitcher, unless mlb is reportin this wrong, but then again, the whole transaction is confusing to me. I have no clue how minnesota weasled in to get a piece of the action.
Two words: Terry Ryan. He has pulled off some crazy below-the-radar trades. Minnesota could have ditched Mienktmcxws for a bag of balls and it would have been a good thing, salary-wise. Ryan goes out and sneaks him into a trade to get a highly touted pitching prospect. Remember, Santana was a Rule V acquisition. Their scouting seems to be a couple notches above most. Like I said in an earlier post, I wouldn't be surprised to see this Jones kid in a Twinks uni before too long.

doublem23
08-02-2004, 04:52 PM
Nomar a Gold Glover? Man, you guys read the Trib too much. :roflmao:

OEO Magglio
08-02-2004, 05:34 PM
OEO:

Because as Baseball America stated less then ten per cent of ALL minor league players ever spend ONE DAY in the big leagues. Less then one per cent of those ever make an impact in the bigs.

When you can trade two 'can't miss kids' who according to the odds are probably not going to do a thing for a quality shortstop (even if it is only for two months) that giving away 'nothing,' in my book (http://www.adsrve.com/linkredirect.php?h=471,28012355,whitesoxinteractiv e.com,1).

That's the way major market teams operate.

Hangar:

A Cardinals (http://www.adsrve.com/linkredirect.php?h=502,28012355,whitesoxinteractiv e.com,1) player was quoted in the St. Louis Post Dispatch as wondering the same things you wonder about with the Cubs. He asked how the Cubs could get Nomar for 'nothing' and mentioned that 'it's like someone is always watching over the Cubs...' I thought you'd enjoy that. The story is in the odds and Ends column in the Sun Times (Quick Hits...)

LipLip I completely agree with you on prospects but that's not my point. Basically I'm saying when Kenny traded away Reed, Olivo, and Morse there will people saying how much Kenny overpaid just to get Freddy Garcia yet when the cubs give up solid prospects also it was a steal for them and they gave up nothing add to that the sox got an ace pitcher and the flubs got an overrated shortstop. I don't know why some people say kenny overpaid in the freddy deal while Hendry gave up nothing for nomar.:?:

jeremyb1
08-02-2004, 06:32 PM
I think Harris is a little better then rauch but that's jmo and Beltran is kind of hard to rate because he is a closer prospect. Jeremy, baseball america had him rate their 2nd best prospect before the year started. Stock I completely agree with you, I'm just trying to make a point that the cubs did in fact give up descent prospects but it's still a very good trade for them.

Yeah. I don't have a ton of respect for how BA rates prospects but this ranking seems beyond ridiculous. Here's what Joe Sheehan had to say about Jones

First of all, let's get something clear: Doug Mientkiewicz was free with purchase. The Twins swapped him for a left-hander with an ERA of 3.78 in his second year in the Midwest League, a high-school draftee who hasn’t been able to stay healthy in either of his two professional seasons. Justin Jones is a prospect in the sense that anyone under the age of 23 with a professional contract is a prospect, but he's not as valuable to the Twins as the money they don't have to pay Mientkiewicz, or the at-bats they don't have to give him that will now go to Justin Morneau.

(Jones was the Cubs' #2 prospect according to Baseball America. Obviously, we disagree on his merits. John Sickels, in his Prospect Handbook, writes: "The Cubs drafted Justin Jones in the second round in ’02, out of high school in Virginia. A tall, thin, projectable lefty, he already throws 90-91 MPH and his velocity will increase as he gets stronger. He also has an outstanding curveball, plus a deceptive delivery. He needs to improve his command, but his K/IP and H/IP marks were quite impressive at Lansing. Caveat: he was shut down early with a tired arm, and his workload will have to be monitored very closely. I want to see better control and consistent health from him, but he’s one of the better southpaw prospects in the minors. Grade B.")

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=3294

doublem23
08-02-2004, 07:08 PM
Man, for a franchise mired in a nearly 90-year championship drought, there's a lot of prospect-lovin' fans around here.

duke of dorwood
08-02-2004, 08:39 PM
The regularity that the Cubs pull this stuff off makes me wonder if they actually plant rumors to make themselves look good when a deal is finally made. If KW gave up 4 players, he'd be lynched here and in the papers. The smoke generated by Clement not going takes away from the 4 players. All these GM's cant be repeatedly raped by Hendry-I am very suspicious of the whole process.

OEO Magglio
08-02-2004, 08:43 PM
The regularity that the Cubs pull this stuff off makes me wonder if they actually plant rumors to make themselves look good when a deal is finally made. If KW gave up 4 players, he'd be lynched here and in the papers. The smoke generated by Clement not going takes away from the 4 players. All these GM's cant be repeatedly raped by Hendry-I am very suspicious of the whole process.Thank You. That's exactly what I'm trying to say. I turn on the radio after the Garcia trade and people are tearing him to shreads because they said he gave up to much, then I listen to the same people talk about how Hendry stole Nomar from the Red Sox and he gave up absolutely nothing. It just doesn't make sense to me. Plus the fact Garcia is a much better player then Nomar.

OurBitchinMinny
08-02-2004, 08:44 PM
Ok this has really been bugging me, when I keep hearing that Hendry gave up nothing to get Nomar. Hendry gave up four players, Justin Jones who ba has rated as the cubs 2nd best prospect when the year started, brendan harris who was rated the 8th best spect in their system, francis beltran who is supposed to be their closer of the future and alex gonzalez well he's nothing special but an added player in the deal. So how is this nothing for an overrated player who over the last 3 years is batting .267 outside of fenway. Granted I do think this was a good trade for the cubs, however they did give up a lot. Now Kenny Williams gives up 3 guys two of which are good prospects(if you consider Olivo a prospect) and another who is a descent prospect for an ace pitcher and yet there is the notion that kenny overpaid while Hendry gave up absolutely nothing. I've heard the same people here and on sports radio talk about how Kenny overpaid and Hendry is a genius and gave up nothing.



Ok, vent over, sorry everyone had to get that off my chest.

I dont think they gave up nothing. They gave up some decent prospects but didnt give up any of their crown jewels(pie, guzman, brownlie) and none of those prospects went to the red sox. Not only did they not give up any crown jewels, but they got one of the red sox best prospects, OF matt murton who will be a solid major leaguer someday. I understand epstein wanted to get rid of nomar and that mienkietwicz and cabreara are not bad players, but I dont understand why murton was included in the deal

JB98
08-03-2004, 02:12 AM
Perhaps Hendry has some sort of mind control over the other GMs. In the past year, he has acquired Ramirez, Garciaparra, Lee, Simon and Lofton without giving up anyone significant. Let's also remember that he somehow got the Dodgers to take Hundley for Grudzielanek and Karros and got the best of the Oakland genius by swapping Miller for Barrett. The Cubs bullpen still stinks, so there's hope that all this will blow up in their face. It is definitely true though that Hendry consistently makes his peers look foolish.

Irishsox1
08-03-2004, 10:56 AM
My saying with trades and who got more for nothing is "Don't Believe the Hype!". The Tribune will always make it appear that the Cubs gave up nothing and got everything. However, trades take time to play themselves out. In March of 2002 the Cubs got Matt Clement and Antonio Alfonseca for Julian Tavarez and three minor leaguers. At the time everyone talked about how the Cubs got something for nothing. The problem was Alfonseca turned into a total bust for the Cubs and Clement has been decent, not awesome but very good. And for the minor leaguers, one of them was Dontrelle Willis. So, with Alfonseca sucking and Tavarez sucking, basically it was Dontrelle Willis for Matt Clement. Now who got the better of the trade? Last year Clement was 14 and 12 with a 4.11 era and Willis was the NL Rookie of the Year and went 14 and 6 with a 3.03 era.

brewerfan
08-03-2004, 01:38 PM
To be fair, Clement had a 3.60 ERA in 2002 and a 3.03 one this year, to Willis' 3.86 this year.

DrCrawdad
08-04-2004, 01:09 AM
To be fair, Clement had a 3.60 ERA in 2002 and a 3.03 one this year, to Willis' 3.86 this year.

Yeah, 3.86 that sucks!

For all the talk about how great Hendry is as GM remember that he's been given more financial freedom that any recent Cub GM. Plus Hendry's brought in his share of slugs - Alfonseca, Troy O'Leary, Lenny Harris, Jose Hernandez, Josh Paul, Shawn Estes, Mark Guthrie, Felix Sanchez, Dave Veres, Fred McGriff, Todd Hundley, Darren Lewis, Chad Hermansen, Donovan Osbourne, Jesus Sanchez.

StockdaleForVeep
08-04-2004, 04:47 AM
ofcourse we will people claim nomar is an offensive god now, how ironic, hes playing in colorado.

Cubbiesuck13
08-04-2004, 09:51 AM
As far as perception goes, I think he did not give up what people thought the Red Sox were going to demand. Remember the Nomar for Mags talk? Anything less than a Mags means he was a steal. I don't really agree with that but that is the way I am taking everyones gushing over this trade.