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A. Cavatica
08-01-2004, 03:09 PM
Based on OPS, Neal Cotts (3.000) should be our DH.

Our top nine (healthy) ranked by OPS are Konerko, Rowand, Lee, Valentin, Everett, Uribe, Burke, Gload (.695), and Crede (.693). Harris is next at .655, which is more of an indictment of his power (.306 slugging, which is completely unacceptable even for a leadoff man) than his on-base percentage (.349). I would save Willie for pinch-hitting in situations where we absolutely need a baserunner.

Valentin's OPS is still .802, which is still pretty good for a shortstop. So even though I'm still seething about Wednesday and the .228 batting average, we still need to get him into the lineup.

Some people want Lee batting higher in the order, because he's got a decent on-base percentage. In fact, Everett's the guy we should move up, because his OBP is second in this group and he has a much lower slugging percentage than Lee or Rowand.

I think our best lineup could be something like this:

1) Everett rf (.365 OBP, .422 SLG)
2) Rowand cf (.365 OBP, .549 SLG)
3) Lee lf (.364 OBP, .518 SLG)
4) Konerko 1b (.367 OBP, .557 SLG)
5) Valentin ss (.297 OBP, .502 SLG)
6) Burke c (.356 OBP, .421 SLG)
7) Uribe 2b (.318 OBP, .457 SLG)
8) Gload dh (.326 OBP, .368 SLG)
9) Crede 3b (.286 OBP, .407 SLG)

It has lefty-righty balance and puts a lot of people on base in front of Konerko and Valentin. Yes, the last four guys are weak, but that's all we have to work with until Frank gets back.

StepsInSC
08-01-2004, 03:15 PM
1) You can't be serious about batting Everett first. Even Mr. Moneyball himself would struggle with that idea. Moving him up in the order is fine, but leading off?? With his current health he struggles to get from first to third on a double!

2) Gload has been great as a PHer, would he have the same success playing everyday?

Looking at that makes me wonder how we even won today's game...good God that lineup is so pathetic (I don't mean your lineup, I mean any lineup that this team can field).

Region Sox
08-01-2004, 03:34 PM
I think our best lineup could be something like this:

1) Everett rf (.365 OBP, .422 SLG)

You are forgetting he physically has no knees. I wouldn't want him out there for risk of injury. He is a step slower than he was in 2003. I think he could still be Paulie in a foot race but not by a whole lot. DH him if he is healthy. Keep-G - Load out in RF although he has been an adventure on many plays this year.

A. Cavatica
08-01-2004, 03:47 PM
1) You can't be serious about batting Everett first. Even Mr. Moneyball himself would struggle with that idea. Moving him up in the order is fine, but leading off?? With his current health he struggles to get from first to third on a double!

2) Gload has been great as a PHer, would he have the same success playing everyday?
1) Just throwing the idea out there. I know it's unconventional, but it is a serious suggestion. He's always been able to draw a walk,and we could use his intensity at the top of the order. (I think Everett's numbers will improve marginally over the rest of the season, and I think Rowand's will drop. We could flip-flop Rowand and Everett, but Rowand has the higher slugging percentage right now.)

2) I'd rather find out about Gload than the other options (Perez and Harris).

jordan23ventura
08-01-2004, 04:10 PM
Yeah, the lineup sucks right now. But there really isn't much that can be done about it, either. I would rather see some of the younger guys out there permanently for the rest of the season until someone else steps up and forces them out. I for one don't feel we should give up on Harris and Davis yet. Same goes for Borchard. There's really no reason to have Sandy, Timo, Gload, and Burke out there so much because they don't have as high of ceilings as the above players do. We already know what we will get from Sandy, Timo, Gload and Burke. That said, why not put Borchard, Harris, and Davis out there regularly to see what they can do for the remainder of the season? Hopefully it would make decision time over the offseason less difficult.

I say try this:
2B Harris
CF Rowand
LF Lee
1B Konerko
DH Everett/Valentin
RF Borchard
SS Uribe/Valentin
3B Crede
C Davis

JB98
08-01-2004, 04:48 PM
Yeah, the lineup sucks right now. But there really isn't much that can be done about it, either. I would rather see some of the younger guys out there permanently for the rest of the season until someone else steps up and forces them out. I for one don't feel we should give up on Harris and Davis yet. Same goes for Borchard. There's really no reason to have Sandy, Timo, Gload, and Burke out there so much because they don't have as high of ceilings as the above players do. We already know what we will get from Sandy, Timo, Gload and Burke. That said, why not put Borchard, Harris, and Davis out there regularly to see what they can do for the remainder of the season? Hopefully it would make decision time over the offseason less difficult.

I say try this:
2B Harris
CF Rowand
LF Lee
1B Konerko
DH Everett/Valentin
RF Borchard
SS Uribe/Valentin
3B Crede
C Davis
Whoever plays second base should be batting ninth. There is no way we can take Aaron out of the leadoff spot. He is doing a tremendous job. I'd stay with Rowand first and whoever is playing RF second. I like the idea of putting Everett behind Konerko. We need better protection for Paulie, who is our most dangerous hitter in the middle of the order. I don't think Konerko is seeing much to drive with the men who are hitting behind him struggling right now.

jordan23ventura
08-01-2004, 05:53 PM
Whoever plays second base should be batting ninth. There is no way we can take Aaron out of the leadoff spot. He is doing a tremendous job. I'd stay with Rowand first and whoever is playing RF second. I like the idea of putting Everett behind Konerko. We need better protection for Paulie, who is our most dangerous hitter in the middle of the order. I don't think Konerko is seeing much to drive with the men who are hitting behind him struggling right now.
The only reason I suggested having Willie regualrly lead off is because that is what he is supposed to be: a leadoff hitter. Might as well see if he can start to get it together this year instead of next, when I think Ozzie will make sure major changes are made to this entire team. The only thing I see remaining pretty much set is the rotation. There will be a lot of changes over the next offseason to the bullpen and starting lineup.

JB98
08-01-2004, 06:22 PM
The only reason I suggested having Willie regualrly lead off is because that is what he is supposed to be: a leadoff hitter. Might as well see if he can start to get it together this year instead of next, when I think Ozzie will make sure major changes are made to this entire team. The only thing I see remaining pretty much set is the rotation. There will be a lot of changes over the next offseason to the bullpen and starting lineup.
I understand your point, but I've already seen enough of Harris to feel that he is not the answer, short-term or long-term, to our leadoff problem.

S.S. Lumber Yard
08-01-2004, 07:34 PM
Rowand is just fine where he is at. I am glad he seems to have come around. I thought the same of Juan Uribe though, so I am cautious.
:atrain

Jerome
08-01-2004, 07:40 PM
DEAR LORD!

Valentin and Crede have to learn how to take some walks. If your OBP is lower than .300, you should not be on a major league team.

StrTrkker
08-01-2004, 07:42 PM
Yeah, the lineup sucks right now. But there really isn't much that can be done about it, either. I would rather see some of the younger guys out there permanently for the rest of the season until someone else steps up and forces them out. I for one don't feel we should give up on Harris and Davis yet. Same goes for Borchard. There's really no reason to have Sandy, Timo, Gload, and Burke out there so much because they don't have as high of ceilings as the above players do. We already know what we will get from Sandy, Timo, Gload and Burke. That said, why not put Borchard, Harris, and Davis out there regularly to see what they can do for the remainder of the season? Hopefully it would make decision time over the offseason less difficult.

I say try this:
2B Harris
CF Rowand
LF Lee
1B Konerko
DH Everett/Valentin
RF Borchard
SS Uribe/Valentin
3B Crede
C Davis
Heres my stab on the lineup...

CF Rowand
LF Lee
DH Everett
1B Konerko
SS Valentin
3B Crede
2B Uribe
C Davis
RF Borchard

TimoPerez
08-01-2004, 09:14 PM
I think it should be...

Perez RF
Rowand CF
Lee LF
Konerko 1B
Everett DH
Valentin SS
Crede 3B
Uribe/Harris 2B
Burke/Davis/Alomar C

For the second basemen and catcher, I guess you would play the hot hand. In rightfield, you can platoon Timo with Borchard if you want.

Edit: If Borchard plays against lefties, then he should be switched in the order with Uribe or Harris, whoever is playing second base. I think this lineup against lefties and the above lineup against righties would result in the maximum amount of runs.

OurBitchinMinny
08-01-2004, 10:12 PM
I know I will get jumped all over and ripped for this suggestion, but lets hit crede #2 for a while. Just to see if it instills more confidence in him. And valentin needs to hit lower.

TimoPerez
08-01-2004, 11:59 PM
I know I will get jumped all over and ripped for this suggestion, but lets hit crede #2 for a while. Just to see if it instills more confidence in him. And valentin needs to hit lower.Giving him confidence is a good idea, but not if it would hinder the team's chances of scoring runs. The top two guys have to get on base, and Crede has not done such a great job of that this year.

OEO Magglio
08-02-2004, 12:02 AM
Based on OPS, Neal Cotts (3.000) should be our DH.

Our top nine (healthy) ranked by OPS are Konerko, Rowand, Lee, Valentin, Everett, Uribe, Burke, Gload (.695), and Crede (.693). Harris is next at .655, which is more of an indictment of his power (.306 slugging, which is completely unacceptable even for a leadoff man) than his on-base percentage (.349). I would save Willie for pinch-hitting in situations where we absolutely need a baserunner.

Valentin's OPS is still .802, which is still pretty good for a shortstop. So even though I'm still seething about Wednesday and the .228 batting average, we still need to get him into the lineup.

Some people want Lee batting higher in the order, because he's got a decent on-base percentage. In fact, Everett's the guy we should move up, because his OBP is second in this group and he has a much lower slugging percentage than Lee or Rowand.

I think our best lineup could be something like this:

1) Everett rf (.365 OBP, .422 SLG)
2) Rowand cf (.365 OBP, .549 SLG)
3) Lee lf (.364 OBP, .518 SLG)
4) Konerko 1b (.367 OBP, .557 SLG)
5) Valentin ss (.297 OBP, .502 SLG)
6) Burke c (.356 OBP, .421 SLG)
7) Uribe 2b (.318 OBP, .457 SLG)
8) Gload dh (.326 OBP, .368 SLG)
9) Crede 3b (.286 OBP, .407 SLG)

It has lefty-righty balance and puts a lot of people on base in front of Konerko and Valentin. Yes, the last four guys are weak, but that's all we have to work with until Frank gets back.This is why Hawk always say stats are overrated. That lineup just isn't good, imo. Forget the stats sometime, do you really want Jamie Burke batting 6th, do you really want Carl leading off, c'mon now.

fuzzy_patters
08-02-2004, 12:31 AM
This would be the ideal lineup, IMHO:
1) Aaron Rowand CF -Has been hitting well lately, and his numbers are much better when he hits high in the lineup. Plus he has good speed and will not clog the basepaths.

2) Carl Everett DH -I like Carl in the 2 hole becaue Rowand gets a decent amount of doubles, and he is solid at stealing bases. Carl is very good at moving runners over, so he would be a nice guy to set the middle part up with some RBI opportunities.

3) Carlos Lee LF -Between Carlos and Paulie, Carlos is faster so he should bat before Paulie. That way Paulie does not clog the basepaths up for Carlos.

4) Paul Konerko 1B -There is no doubt that he and Carlos are our 2 best total hitters right now, so he should bat clean-up for the reason I stated above.

5) Jose Valentin SS -He tends to go into prolonged slumps if he faces too many left-handers. Batting him between two powerful righties should make it harder for opposing managers to throw lefties at him.

6) Joe Crede 3B -He gives you a powerful right-handed bat to protect Valentin. He and Jose have sucked this year, but we really do not have much power without Maggs and Frank. At least letting Konerko, Valentin, and Crede back-to-back-to-back makes it difficult for opposing managers to match-up pitching match-ups.

7) Timo Perez RF -Timo is the next best available hitter, and he continues the theme from above. He is pretty decent against righties so opposing managers will have problems late in games.

8) Catcher DuJour C -This slot could be flip-flopped with Joe Crede if Crede does not start hitting. Burke has hit well, and Davis is not a career .080 hitter just as Uribe is a .250 hitter, so Davis should go on a tear now to get back to his career average.

9) Willie Harris 2B -Willie has been getting on at a fair clip, and I like his speed in the 9 hole. It gives you some speed on the bases when you flip the line-up over for Rowand and Everett.
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Anyway you slice it, you cannot make a very good lineup with these players. Some of these guys are going to have to get hot if we are going to win without Frank Thomas and Magglio Ordonez.

JB98
08-02-2004, 12:32 AM
Giving him confidence is a good idea, but not if it would hinder the team's chances of scoring runs. The top two guys have to get on base, and Crede has not done such a great job of that this year.
But he is a good fastball hitter, and the #2 spots is traditionally a place where you see a lot of fastballs. Might be worth a shot. I don't think we can afford to move CLee up to #2. That means Valentin has to hit fifth, and that's too high.

TimoPerez
08-02-2004, 12:52 AM
But he is a good fastball hitter, and the #2 spots is traditionally a place where you see a lot of fastballs. Might be worth a shot. I don't think we can afford to move CLee up to #2. That means Valentin has to hit fifth, and that's too high.You only see a lot of fastballs in the number two spot if the person in the number one slot is fast and on base. Plus, right now is not the time for experimenting. The team needs as many runs as possible, and hitting Crede in the two hole probably is not the smartest thing to do. I still think that Timo leading off and Rowand second is the best idea. Timo gets on, Rowand sees fastball, Rowand hits fastball, Sox score runs. YAY!!!!!:D:

A. Cavatica
08-02-2004, 01:00 AM
This is why Hawk always say stats are overrated. That lineup just isn't good, imo. Forget the stats sometime, do you really want Jamie Burke batting 6th, do you really want Carl leading off, c'mon now.
No, of course not. I've been beating the drum for a leadoff hitter all season, and that's why I was so disappointed to see Reed traded. Unfortunately, with the current personnel, there is no good lineup.

Look, Harris should be in the #9 hole if he plays at all. Perez (.300 OBP) is a reserve. Borchard doesn't even deserve to be on the team. You pretty much have to play the nine guys I cited, and obviously you have to fill the leadoff spot with one of the four good OBPs (Konerko, Everett, Rowand, Lee). Of those four, Everett has the least power, so Everett-Rowand or Rowand-Everett is what you end up with.

Now, if Harris picks it up, or if Burke continues to get on base at a .356 clip, or if Gload somehow catches fire, then you can try Leadoff-Rowand-Lee-Konerko-Everett-Valentin, or swap Lee & Everett to break up the RH and LH batters. That's a much better lineup, but (1) I think we're seeing the real Willie Harris; (2) I think Burke is playing over his head; and (3) Gload doesn't draw many walks and isn't likely to bat .330.

Where's Jason Kendall when you need him?

A. Cavatica
08-02-2004, 01:13 AM
7) Timo Perez RF -Timo is the next best available hitter, and he continues the theme from above. He is pretty decent against righties so opposing managers will have problems late in games.

8) Catcher DuJour C -This slot could be flip-flopped with Joe Crede if Crede does not start hitting. Burke has hit well, and Davis is not a career .080 hitter just as Uribe is a .250 hitter, so Davis should go on a tear now to get back to his career average.
Your lineup makes sense too, but I'll quibble with the #7 and #8 spots. Uribe's a much better hitter than Timo; in fact, he has enough pop to bat sixth and push Crede down in the order. Gload is also a better hitter than Timo. As for the catchers, Burke's been way better than the other two, but it's a small sample size. I would try Burke higher in the order while he's hot, but you're probably right about our catchers belonging in the #8 spot.

OEO Magglio
08-02-2004, 01:17 AM
Unfortunately, with the current personnel, there is no good lineup.

Unfortunately, that is completely true.