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View Full Version : 'Flaw' In Contreras Motion


CWSGuy406
07-31-2004, 11:41 PM
For those of you who heard Kenny speak of the trade, I'm interested in something. He spoke of a flaw in Contreras' motion, in which he's tipping his pitches.

First off - excuse me for sounding stupid here - but what exactly does he mean by 'tipping' pitches? I know it basically means the hitters are seeing it very well, too well, but can someone explain that a bit more for me?

Secondly - for those of you who have seen him pitch numerous times, what exactly is he doing that's 'tipping' his pitches, if that makes any sense?

Any help is appreciated. Thanks, and let's get a win.

OEO Magglio
07-31-2004, 11:43 PM
For those of you who heard Kenny speak of the trade, I'm interested in something. He spoke of a flaw in Contreras' motion, in which he's tipping his pitches.

First off - excuse me for sounding stupid here - but what exactly does he mean by 'tipping' pitches? I know it basically means the hitters are seeing it very well, too well, but can someone explain that a bit more for me?

Secondly - for those of you who have seen him pitch numerous times, what exactly is he doing that's 'tipping' his pitches, if that makes any sense?

Any help is appreciated. Thanks, and let's get a win.I can't help you with the 2nd one but for your first question I think it basically means that Contreras is changing his arm angles or something to that extent as to where the hitter no what pitch is coming by the way his delivery is coming through.

cbrownson13
07-31-2004, 11:45 PM
From what I know, tipping pitches is a flaw in your motion that tips the batter on what is coming. (fastball, curveball, etc.) I could be wrong, but that's what I think it is.

I'm not exactly sure how he's doing it. It seems that everyone knows about it. Harold Reynolds made it sound like it's no big deal that Kenny knows that and that everyone can tell that.

doublem23
07-31-2004, 11:50 PM
It could be anything. On ESPN Radio this afternoon, around 4 o'clock, Williams was on and said that the Sox have been high on Contreras for a long time, have already identified the problem, and are preparing to work with him. If they can get around this, it will be a huge deal.

OEO Magglio
07-31-2004, 11:52 PM
It could be anything. On ESPN Radio this afternoon, around 4 o'clock, Williams was on and said that the Sox have been high on Contreras for a long time, have already identified the problem, and are preparing to work with him. If they can get around this, it will be a huge deal.Can you imagine if they fix this flaw and Contreras starts pitching up to his stuff, yikes, the sox rotation would be pretty scary for a couple years, lets hope it happens.:bandance:

jeremyb1
07-31-2004, 11:55 PM
Well that's great scouting if that's the case. We'll have to see how well he fares in the early going. To me it seems a little risky to try to turn around a pitcher's season based on one adjustment especially when he's relatively unproven at the Major League level but it's pretty safe to say Contreras can pitch better than he has thus far this season. I guess time will tell.

batmanZoSo
07-31-2004, 11:59 PM
From what I know, tipping pitches is a flaw in your motion that tips the batter on what is coming. (fastball, curveball, etc.) I could be wrong, but that's what I think it is.

I'm not exactly sure how he's doing it. It seems that everyone knows about it. Harold Reynolds made it sound like it's no big deal that Kenny knows that and that everyone can tell that.
Of course, that's the nature of tipping pitches. It's just like throwing balls. Everyone can see it, but you can't necessarily correct it. You have to work on it.

Coop'll get us out of this.

Win1ForMe
08-01-2004, 12:07 AM
I hope they can get whatever it is corrected. His starting numbers from last year are pretty "sick."

StockdaleForVeep
08-01-2004, 01:43 AM
For those of you who heard Kenny speak of the trade, I'm interested in something. He spoke of a flaw in Contreras' motion, in which he's tipping his pitches.

First off - excuse me for sounding stupid here - but what exactly does he mean by 'tipping' pitches? I know it basically means the hitters are seeing it very well, too well, but can someone explain that a bit more for me?

Secondly - for those of you who have seen him pitch numerous times, what exactly is he doing that's 'tipping' his pitches, if that makes any sense?

Any help is appreciated. Thanks, and let's get a win.
Its all the mechanics of delivery. Normally pitchers who have very abnormal mechanics(nomo, el douque, dontrelle willis,kevin brown, etc) have strange releases which means the hitters have less time to read where the ball is coming from and have less time to react. This is why you have the infamous concept of lefty vs righty pitching\hitting and vice versa because they have a longer time to view the pitch come

I have not watched Contreras enough to see what his problems could be. It can be fixed easily but with pitchers, small changes may screw up their entire delivery and mess with their heads. All depends on the pitching coach and how he handles it, some coaches excell and fix problems and some coaches do nothing\make changes that make things worse.

Wealz
08-01-2004, 10:23 AM
Well that's great scouting if that's the case. We'll have to see how well he fares in the early going. To me it seems a little risky to try to turn around a pitcher's season based on one adjustment especially when he's relatively unproven at the Major League level but it's pretty safe to say Contreras can pitch better than he has thus far this season. I guess time will tell.
I'm skeptical. This was mentioned on Baseball Tonight and Harold Reynolds responded with a sarcastic "duh". Leads me to believe that Contreras tipping his pitches has been common knowledge more or less. Identifying a problem and correcting it are two entirely different things.

bluestar
08-01-2004, 10:46 AM
I'm sure many here will remember the '93 playoffs between the Sox and the Blue Jays when the Blue Jays saw something in Black Jack's delivery that tipped them to his pitches. Does anyone know for sure what McDowell was doing? I remember when the Jays finally revealed this fact after the series was over (and after they pretty much shelled McDowell in the two games they faced him), there was a lot of controversy about it, but I never heard anyone explain what McDowell was doing that tipped them off.

Nellie_Fox
08-02-2004, 01:01 AM
Tipping pitches can be simple or difficult to remedy. Sometimes, it's as simple as hesitating in your windup while you adjust your grip for a certain pitch. That should be easy to fix. Or, it could be a change in the arm angle. That is much more difficult to change.

jeremyb1
08-02-2004, 01:05 AM
I'm skeptical. This was mentioned on Baseball Tonight and Harold Reynolds responded with a sarcastic "duh". Leads me to believe that Contreras tipping his pitches has been common knowledge more or less. Identifying a problem and correcting it are two entirely different things.

Yeah. I'm with you in thinking there's definite reason for skepticism here.

OEO Magglio
08-02-2004, 01:12 AM
Yeah. I'm with you in thinking there's definite reason for skepticism here.I can definitely see why people would be skeptical, however wealz you shouldn't be skeptical because of something harold reynolds said.

MisterB
08-02-2004, 02:51 AM
I don't know if everybody's figured out how he's tipping his pitches, but I'd say the Red Sox definitely have. Overall Contreras has a 16.44 era vs. Boston and a 3.45 era against everyone else. Wow.:o:

soxtalker
08-02-2004, 08:38 AM
The SCORE just had the national baseball reporter from the NY paper Newsday on discussing the trade. While he mentioned the tipping of pitches, it seemed to be part of a larger problem of the difficulty Contreras has when playing in important games. He said that Contreras was a great pitcher that will break your heart. He'll pitch great against lesser opponents, but has trouble in big games. For them, it was the Red Sox (and this even occurred when he'd been pitching better after his family had joined him). For us, he predicted that Contreras would have trouble against the Twins. So, it wasn't so much a mechanics problem, but, rather, one of mental toughness.

gosox41
08-02-2004, 09:03 AM
The SCORE just had the national baseball reporter from the NY paper Newsday on discussing the trade. While he mentioned the tipping of pitches, it seemed to be part of a larger problem of the difficulty Contreras has when playing in important games. He said that Contreras was a great pitcher that will break your heart. He'll pitch great against lesser opponents, but has trouble in big games. For them, it was the Red Sox (and this even occurred when he'd been pitching better after his family had joined him). For us, he predicted that Contreras would have trouble against the Twins. So, it wasn't so much a mechanics problem, but, rather, one of mental toughness.
Just what the Sox need, another weak minded player we can count on to give it up in a big game.



Bob

Jerko
08-02-2004, 09:05 AM
I didn't read this whole thread, but do we REALLY think that our coaches are gonna find something wrong with Contreras that the Yankee coaches couldn't find?

Dolanski
08-02-2004, 09:21 AM
I didn't read this whole thread, but do we REALLY think that our coaches are gonna find something wrong with Contreras that the Yankee coaches couldn't find?
Give the Sox coaching and scouting their due. Loiza was a nobody when he came here, learned to throw a cutter and became an effective pitcher. Marte was a give away from the Pirates and no one was willing to give Shingo a chance except us.

And hey, if Contreras can pitch down the stretch like he did last season, look out. His stuff, when its on, is electric. On pure stuff, he is head and shoulders above Loiza...of course, everyone said Jeff Weaver had great stuff too...

soxtalker
08-02-2004, 09:24 AM
Just what the Sox need, another weak minded player we can count on to give it up in a big game.
Bob
Well, I don't know how easy it is to correct this problem. The Sox have had mixed results with Garland, though Garland is much younger. It isn't terribly surprising that there was a problem, and this makes much more sense than simply a mechanistic one.

sendimjoey
08-02-2004, 10:03 AM
Just what the Sox need, another weak minded player we can count on to give it up in a big game.



Bob
I don't want this to sound like a big rip on Loiaza, because I really appreciate the wonderful season he had for us last year (and I'm still looking forward to getting my Esty bobblehead :D: ), but he lost two big starts against the Twins in September last year and he didn't exactly light it up against the Twins on Wednesday.

I also think that the Sox are a very Latino-friendly team, and that could help Contreras, who speaks little English.

CanadianSoxFan
08-02-2004, 10:22 AM
I read an article on Contreras, around the time is family came to America, and it talked about how dominate he was when he was in Cuba. Basically the premise was that Contreras was so dominate because he was happy and loving baseball. Maybe the combination of his family, Ozzie, and a large number of Latin players can help Contreras dominate for the White Sox. I sure hope so.

SoxxoS
08-02-2004, 10:48 AM
I read an article on Contreras, around the time is family came to America, and it talked about how dominate he was when he was in Cuba. Basically the premise was that Contreras was so dominate because he was happy and loving baseball. Maybe the combination of his family, Ozzie, and a large number of Latin players can help Contreras dominate for the White Sox. I sure hope so.
That's the hope. Let's not forget the fact that he has been pretty damn solid (3.50 ERA) against all teams sans Boston. I am skeptical of this stat, however, as I was the one who posted the "Billy Koch has a 1.13 ERA against all teams other than Toronto and Oakland."

That stat was just proved how awesome he was.

We know how good his stuff is. Plus, Loiaza is a disaster without that extra pop on his fastball to set up his cutter. AFAIC, the only game he has pitched similarly to 03 was at Tampa like 2 weeks into the season.

Flight #24
08-02-2004, 10:54 AM
I look at it this way - for 2004, ELo was consistently giving up 4 runs/game, which for a team struggling to score as we are now - was a loss most of the time. Contreras will go 2 awesome games (<2ER), then get absolutely bombed. So 1/2 - 2/3 of the time, he'll put the Sox in much better position to win. So it's an upgrade for this year.

I also have some faith in the coaching staff's ability to tweak him a bit and reduce the inconsistency. How well they can do taht will be the difference between us having a 3-4mil pitcher who we're paying 6mil to or us having an 8-10mil pitcher we're paying 6mil to.

SoxxoS
08-02-2004, 11:12 AM
Big difference pitching in New York compared to Chicago..especially under his circumstances.

Nard
08-02-2004, 11:36 AM
He's bombed it a few times even since his family returned but just look at the last seven games.

CONTRERAS SINCE HIS FAMILY RETURNED FROM CUBA:
vs NYM- 6.0 IP, 0 ER.
at NYM- 5.0 IP, 7 ER.
vs T.B.- 6.2 IP, 1 ER.
at DET- 8.0 IP, 1 ER.
at T.B.- 7.0 IP, 1 ER.
at BOS- 5.1 IP, 8 ER.
vs BAL- 6.2 IP, 7 ER.

So in 7 games, that's FOUR QUALITY STARTS, with a record of 4-2.


LOAIZA IN THE SAME TIME PERIOD:
vs CLE- 5.1 IP, 6 ER.
vs CHC- 6.0 IP, 4 ER.
at CHC- 6.0 IP, 4 ER.
vs ANA- 5.1 IP, 8 ER.
at OAK- 7.0 IP, 4 ER.
vs DET- 6.0 IP, 4 ER
vs MIN- 7.0 IP, 4 ER.

So in 7 games, that's ZERO, ZERO QUALITY STARTS, with a record of 2-3.


It's better off to just avoid the "articles." Every jackass with an opinion is saying the Sox were losers and the Yankees won a consistent starter. Esty has been consistent... consistently bad this season. Joe Torre really is a genius for making him an All-Star that way.

But hopefully they'll all be eating crow as soon as Wednesday.

I have nothing against Esty, but for the media's sake, I hope he gets absolutely shelled.

Flight #24
08-02-2004, 11:40 AM
He's bombed it a few times even since his family returned but just look at the last seven games.

CONTRERAS SINCE HIS FAMILY RETURNED FROM CUBA:
vs NYM- 6.0 IP, 0 ER.
at NYM- 5.0 IP, 7 ER.
vs T.B.- 6.2 IP, 1 ER.
at DET- 8.0 IP, 1 ER.
at T.B.- 7.0 IP, 1 ER.
at BOS- 5.1 IP, 8 ER.
vs BAL- 6.2 IP, 7 ER.

So in 7 games, that's FOUR QUALITY STARTS, with a record of 4-2.

more than that - in 7 games, that's 4 dominant starts. Even with this offense, that's likely 4 wins in 7 games, which was a lot more than we were getting with ELo.

Wealz
08-02-2004, 12:23 PM
That's the hope. Let's not forget the fact that he has been pretty damn solid (3.50 ERA) against all teams sans Boston. I am skeptical of this stat, however, as I was the one who posted the "Billy Koch has a 1.13 ERA against all teams other than Toronto and Oakland."
Koch's problem was he lost anywhere from 7-10 MPH somewhere between Oakland and Chicago. Contreras' "stuff" appears intact.

CHI_SOX_4_LIFE
08-02-2004, 12:24 PM
I didn't read this whole thread, but do we REALLY think that our coaches are gonna find something wrong with Contreras that the Yankee coaches couldn't find?

The one thing the yankees have trouble with is pitching, and look at some of the great pitchers they have. I think their pitching coach doesnt get the job done. Then look at what the Sox did with Esteban last year, turned him into a 21-9 Cy Young runner up. This year his arm is just too worn out. And look at Shony, I know he is not that good, but he has improved since aneheim. I think our coaching staff will fix Contreras' problem. He has much better stuff than Esteban, all he needs is his consistensy fixed and he will be absolutely dominant. The only team he did horrible against was boston and thats because the yankees vs red sox games are some of, if not, the most intense games in baseball. White sox vs Twins games, although intense, do not compare to yankees vs red sox games. Imagine Buerhle, Garcia, Contreras, and Garland (when he grows up a lil). Thats a pretty damn good rotation. I see good things to come.

Jerko
08-02-2004, 12:28 PM
The one thing the yankees have trouble with is pitching, and look at some of the great pitchers they have. I think their pitching coach doesnt get the job done. Then look at what the Sox did with Esteban last year, turned him into a 21-9 Cy Young runner up. This year his arm is just too worn out. And look at Shony, I know he is not that good, but he has improved since aneheim. I think our coaching staff will fix Contreras' problem. He has much better stuff than Esteban, all he needs is his consistensy fixed and he will be absolutely dominant. The only team he did horrible against was boston and thats because the yankees vs red sox games are some of, if not, the most intense games in baseball. White sox vs Twins games, although intense, do not compare to yankees vs red sox games. Imagine Buerhle, Garcia, Contreras, and Garland (when he grows up a lil). Thats a pretty damn good rotation. I see good things to come.
I hope you're right, but I've seen some pitchers come to the Sox and get worse and conversely, leave the Sox and get better. I guess it just depends on the individual.

Tekijawa
08-02-2004, 12:35 PM
I don't kno wif it was black jack, but I remember one pitcher that tipped his pitches by the way he fanned his glove while reaching for the ball.

As for pitching in only to the "lesser" teams... Isn't that who we've had our problems with the past couple years? The Tigers and Devil Rays?

owensmouth
08-02-2004, 12:36 PM
Can I purchase the lumber and spike concession around here?

I suspect that inna week there's gonna be a lot of folks wanting to crucify this guy.

JRIG
08-02-2004, 02:55 PM
Saw this and thought I'd pass it along:


Well, not counting the playoffs, he [Contreras] now has almost a full season's worth of innings under his belt and the results are interesting. In 15.1 innings against Boston, he has a 16.43 ERA, 2.74 WHIP, 16 strikeouts, 14 walks and six homers. In 48.1 innings against Tampa Bay and Detroit, he has a 1.49 ERA, 0.89 WHIP, 38 strikeouts, 14 walks and one homer. And in 103 innings against everybody else, he has a 4.37 ERA, 1.28 WHIP, 100 strikeouts, 44 walks and 19 homers.


http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/rivals-in-exile19/

Just a brief mention of the trade. Mostly about Nomar.