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View Full Version : Vote on Contreras trade.


WSox8404
07-31-2004, 05:33 PM
Do you like the trade or not?

WSox8404
07-31-2004, 05:34 PM
Do you like the trade or not.

ChiWhiteSox1337
07-31-2004, 05:34 PM
heck yeah. i was gettng excited when it was rumored to be both loaiza AND SCHOENEWEIS. the white sox get a guy signed for 2 more seasons after this with amazing stuff for loaiza who wanted freddy garcia-like money. :rolleyes:

HomerCoach
07-31-2004, 05:34 PM
Do you like the trade or not? Dude, is this supposed to be a poll?:redneck

WSox8404
07-31-2004, 05:36 PM
Dude, is this supposed to be a poll?:redneck
I screwed it up, but there is another thread now that is made the right way. :smile: . Mods, you can delete this one.

fquaye149
07-31-2004, 05:39 PM
i voted yes, i probably would vote yes regardless of cash, but assuming the reports of yankees picking up 1/2 is true, i think it's a great deal.

Erik The Red
07-31-2004, 05:39 PM
Hell yeah. Loaiza has proven that last year was a fluke. I doubt the Sox would have been interested in re-signing him anyway, and instead of letting him go for nobody, we get someone with more raw talent, and the Yanks are picking up part of his contract as well. This is a great trade.

HomerCoach
07-31-2004, 05:42 PM
Do you like the trade or not? Much better:D:

JoseCanseco6969
07-31-2004, 05:43 PM
any moron loaiza lover who voter no, i want to hear a good reason why we're better off with him

SomebodyToldMe
07-31-2004, 05:46 PM
i voted yes because este's gone...if only we could have gotten rid of scotty too.

hell, i would have GIVEN them him.

"just take him for the hell of it."

and i'm still mad that we don't have nomar.

::folds arms::

CWSGuy406
07-31-2004, 05:51 PM
Even the people who don't like KW should like this trade - well, maybe not, but Loaiza has only had one good season stat-wise, last year, so he was basically reverting to form. As for Contreras, he had a very good season last year, and that's the only thing to go back on - but he also has better stuff, and hopefully the Latin/Ozzie influence will make him better here.

Nard
07-31-2004, 05:55 PM
Why the Schoe hate?

Scotty is back on track with this last start.

OurBitchinMinny
07-31-2004, 06:03 PM
Our rotation is pretty solid

1. Garcia
2. Buerhle
3. Garland
4. Schoeny
5. Contreas

Contreas could move up that list

OEO Magglio
07-31-2004, 06:06 PM
Our rotation is pretty solid

1. Garcia
2. Buerhle
3. Garland
4. Schoeny
5. Contreas

Contreas could move up that listContreras is better then shoe and garland. Not to mention that freddy, buehrle, contreras, and garland r signed past this year and that makes one hell of a good rotation for years to come. Also why is there a choice for this being a bad trade? I just don't see it, great trade, kenny does his thing again.:bandance: :bandance:

JRIG
07-31-2004, 06:10 PM
I want to wait until we hear exactly how much cash is involved before I vote.

Hey, look at that. I'm not a "moron Loaiza lover" and I still have a little bit of doubt about this trade!

jeremyb1
07-31-2004, 06:13 PM
Oops. Double post.

OEO Magglio
07-31-2004, 06:14 PM
I too would like to see the cash.

Also, again I'd like more options in these polls. Assuming the rumors are true and NY picks up half the salary I'd give this move a 4 or a 4.5 out of 10 with 5 being average.Why doesn't that surprise me.

jeremyb1
07-31-2004, 06:14 PM
I want to wait until we hear exactly how much cash is involved before I vote.

Hey, look at that. I'm not a "moron Loaiza lover" and I still have a little bit of doubt about this trade!

I too would like to see the cash.

Also, again I'd like more options in these polls. Assuming the rumors are true and NY picks up half the salary I'd give this move a 4 or a 4.5 out of 10 with 5 being average. Not a bad move but I wonder if the 8 million coudn't have been better spent over the next two seasons. I'll conceed Contreras has potential to pitch much better than he has but he is 32, it's debatable how well he'll pitch for us.

JRIG
07-31-2004, 06:16 PM
Why doesn't that surprise me.
Is it any more surprising that you love the move by KW without even knowing the exact parameters of the deal?

Paulwny
07-31-2004, 06:19 PM
Right now I like this trade, but I'm wondering if anything was offered to Contreras to waive his no trade clause.

Daver
07-31-2004, 06:20 PM
Right now I like this trade, but I'm wondering if anything was offered to Contreras to waive his no trade clause.
George probably offered him the chance to finish the season shining shoes in the bullpen if he refused to waive his no trade clause.

mjmcend
07-31-2004, 06:23 PM
George probably offered him the chance to finish the season shining shoes in the bullpen if he refused to waive his no trade clause.Maybe I am just dumb, but why in the hell did he even have a no-trade clause to begin with? He is not a 10-5 guy. And was he that highly touted coming out of Cuba that he would get that kind of respect without eveer pitching in the majors?

Jerome
07-31-2004, 06:26 PM
If a Latin Clubhouse didn't help Loaiza, how will it help Contreras. Is he more Latin?

OEO Magglio
07-31-2004, 06:28 PM
If a Latin Clubhouse didn't help Loaiza, how will it help Contreras. Is he more Latin?Contreras doesn't speak english, Loaiza does, this could definitely help out Jose.

jeremyb1
07-31-2004, 06:28 PM
Why doesn't that surprise me.

I don't know. You seem to be insistent upon finding alterior motives in anyone that disagrees with you or KW. People can call me a KW hater all they want but I can point to numerous trades that I approve of and approved of at the time. Can you name a Sox trade in the past several seasons you dissaproved of when it was made?

Furthermore if I just hated all moves for the sake of hating KW, why would I take pains to describe the move as a shade below average instead of just calling it the worst trade ever?

But yeah, whatever. I automatically hate KW and all his deals. I'm blind to the fact that we're series contenders now and in the future.

OEO Magglio
07-31-2004, 06:30 PM
I don't know. You seem to be insistent upon finding alterior motives in anyone that disagrees with you or KW. People can call me a KW hater all they want but I can point to numerous trades that I approve of and approved of at the time. Can you name a Sox trade in the past several seasons you dissaproved of when it was made?

Furthermore if I just hated all moves for the sake of hating KW, why would I take pains to describe the move as a shade below average instead of just calling it the worst trade ever?

But yeah, whatever. I automatically hate KW and all his deals. I'm blind to the fact that we're series contenders now and in the future.Honestly, I wasn't even trying to start an argument with you or anything. I just knew that you weren't going to be all for the trade, that's all.

JoseCanseco6969
07-31-2004, 06:30 PM
I want to wait until we hear exactly how much cash is involved before I vote.

Hey, look at that. I'm not a "moron Loaiza lover" and I still have a little bit of doubt about this trade!
ok maybe that was a little harsh on my part, but these idiots on ESPN think the Yankees made a huge steal for an awesome ALLSTAR pitcher. Its just driving me nuts at how much love esteban is getting! also, its hilarious that i have seen 3 or 4 espn guys mispronounce Esteban Loaiza's name but make it clear we are getting the erratic contreras. Proves that they have no knowledge of the WHITE sox, as we all know.

Paulwny
07-31-2004, 06:32 PM
George probably offered him the chance to finish the season shining shoes in the bullpen if he refused to waive his no trade clause.
I hope that's what it is.
I hope he wasn't offered a contract extension. He's listed as 33 yrs old, but his birth records are in Havana. Some have speculated that El Duque shaved 5 yrs off his age when his agent began negotiations.

anewman35
07-31-2004, 06:35 PM
hate this trade


the f--ing twins just won the division

again

fire kenny
Um, they pretty much already had. What was Esteban going to do about it?

JoseCanseco6969
07-31-2004, 06:37 PM
hate this trade


the f--ing twins just won the division

again

fire kenny
oh yeah i forgot how Loaiza has only 1 win in last five, and hasnt giving up less than 4 runs since mid june. Face it, hes a one-hit wonder....with no relation to MLB hitting. But loaiza won 21 games last year, hes gonna win 21 every year, yeah! But yeah if we kept loaiza, central, here we come!

SomebodyToldMe
07-31-2004, 06:39 PM
If a Latin Clubhouse didn't help Loaiza, how will it help Contreras. Is he more Latin?
umm...este's mexican and contreras is cuban.

that's all i know.

we need more ricans on this team...jose is an embarrassment.

::folds arms::

jeremyb1
07-31-2004, 06:42 PM
Honestly, I wasn't even trying to start an argument with you or anything. I just knew that you weren't going to be all for the trade, that's all.

Cool. Hopefully I've made it clear that I prefer not to commit a lot of money to veterans who aren't the cream of the crop when they're may be cheaper players available elsewhere.

You're not the first one to imply that I'm a "KW hater" so I'd just like anyone who's made that argument to look in the mirror and ask themselves how often they fall on both sides of deals we make. I understand what it is to be optimistic. I try very, very hard sometimes. I've just reached my breaking point this season.

poorme
07-31-2004, 07:28 PM
good deal. helps our playoff chances...



next year!

owensmouth
07-31-2004, 07:34 PM
Contreras is signed for two more years at rediculous amount in millions. Now we're stuck with him. The Yankees are sending some money for this year, but it's out of the Sox pocket for the next two years. Contraras is the Yankees version of Loaiza. Basically, Steinbottom found a sucker to pay out millions to somebody who doesn't perform. Loaiza? They're done with him in 2 months

JRIG
07-31-2004, 07:44 PM
White Sox website says the Yanks are only picking up about $3 million of the money owed Contreras. So, if my only choices are "yes" and "no" in this poll...I vote no.

Remember when the Sox had all that flexibility with the 2005 roster? Those days are long gone. By my count we've got more than $50 million of next year's payroll now tied up. And still no answer at catcher, 2nd base, or center field. And a big hole at SS if Valentin walks. And a big hole at 3rd if Crede continues to suck. And no middle infield prospects in the minors.

PaleHoseGeorge
07-31-2004, 07:51 PM
White Sox website says the Yanks are only picking up about $3 million of the money owed Contreras. So, if my only choices are "yes" and "no" in this poll...I vote no.

Remember when the Sox had all that flexibility with the 2005 roster? Those days are long gone. By my count we've got more than $50 million of next year's payroll now tied up. And still no answer at catcher, 2nd base, or center field. And a big hole at SS if Valentin walks. And a big hole at 3rd if Crede continues to suck. And no middle infield prospects in the minors.
That aside, how did you like the play Mr. Lincoln?

:)

JRIG
07-31-2004, 07:57 PM
That aside, how did you like the play Mr. Lincoln?

:)
I know, I know, always the pessimist. :D:

How about this: I'm confident Frank will exercise his option and be back DH-ing next year! ...Unless KW tries to run him out of town like he wants to.

Damn! I can't help myself! :tongue:

mcfish
07-31-2004, 08:09 PM
Without knowing the money involved, which could make a huge difference if we're stuck with a rediculous contract, I like the trade - but I don't think it fills any of our present needs. Loaiza was gone after this year anyway, so we get Contreras instead of 2 draft picks. We're still going to have to watch a slugging team that can't hit for the rest of the year. That being said, I don't really know what KW could have done to get this team to hit anyway.

S.S. Lumber Yard
07-31-2004, 08:36 PM
I love the trade.

We all know Esteban was a one hit wonder.

This trade makes perfect sense when one engages in looking at the big picture.

2006...sweet.

And they gave us cash?

:)

SoxEd
07-31-2004, 08:42 PM
I interrupt this thread for a geeky complaint about spelling:

Is the word "ridiculous" spelled differently in the States than it is in England?

People keep putting the letter 'e' in it...

OK, as you were.:D:


Now to my 2 cents worth on the trade:

I hope that the Sox' organization knows something that we don't - from what I can see (which is admittedly very little), Loaiza and Contreras both have problems remaining dominant for whole games, and consequently both have unspectacular ERA's.

Jose could be good for us, or he could be less consistent than Esteban.
He hasn't spent much time in the Majors, so who knows what will happen?
I'm unsure what prompted both GM's to make such a trade (but then, I've only been watching baseball for about 18 months, so I'm hardly an expert). Can a change of scene really be relied upon to benefit both pitchers' performances?

The proof of this trade will be in how the two pitchers perform over the rest of this season I guess, and in how much payroll the Sox are shelling out/saving by making the move.

I know too little to put a definitive response to the poll, I'm just crossing my fingers.

Hopefully, the move will do Contreras good (getting away from the New York media has to help, surely), and he can get some confidence going and put up consistently good numbers for us.

jeremyb1
07-31-2004, 08:44 PM
I love the trade.

We all know Esteban was a one hit wonder.

A one hit wonder owed 1 million is better than a pitcher with an ERA in the fives owed 14 million.

I'm sorry. I guess everyone is going to have to rip on me again but with only three million picked up I think this is a very poor deal. We must really think the world of Contreras because 6 million on the open market last season came very close to grabbing you Ponson (8 million) or Escobar (7 million) two of the top pitchers. I just don't think it's a good use of our limited budget. Everyone can complain to no end about how JR won't spend but 60 and maybe 70 million for a payroll next season is middle of the pack at the absolute worst. That's more than enough to put a great team on the field if you spend it wisely. I don't feel like KW is spending the team's money wisely.

johnny bench
07-31-2004, 09:14 PM
I want to wait until we hear exactly how much cash is involved before I vote.

Hey, look at that. I'm not a "moron Loaiza lover" and I still have a little bit of doubt about this trade!
Who knows or really cares what that the WS salary budget is $50MM or $70MM or $100MM when the Yankees will have a $200MM payroll?

The reasons to like this or any trade include:
1. we got better talent than we gave up. In my opinion this trade is a wash.
2. we improved the quality of the clubhouse.
3. we keep talent away from a competitor.

The only possible upside for this trade is the clubhouse angle. Not that I think E Lo was a bad guy in the cklubhouse. but, there is nothing wrong with pushing someone, especially a team leader, off the truck every now and then. To encourage the others...

cbrownson13
07-31-2004, 09:15 PM
I voted yes, however this deal gets kind of sketchy when you consider Contreras's age. He's 33 and has been mediocre at best in his first couple of year in the MLB. To say his best years are ahead of him is stretching it a little bit.

He has pitched better since being reunited with his family and getting out of New York may help. He's been better post All-Star break in his career. Almost two runs better.

I would have liked to have seen more money thrown our way. Hopefully Coop can develop his stuff a little more and teach him how to pitch at this level and give him some confidence.

SoxFan76
07-31-2004, 11:58 PM
A one hit wonder owed 1 million is better than a pitcher with an ERA in the fives owed 14 million.

I'm sorry. I guess everyone is going to have to rip on me again but with only three million picked up I think this is a very poor deal. We must really think the world of Contreras because 6 million on the open market last season came very close to grabbing you Ponson (8 million) or Escobar (7 million) two of the top pitchers. I just don't think it's a good use of our limited budget. Everyone can complain to no end about how JR won't spend but 60 and maybe 70 million for a payroll next season is middle of the pack at the absolute worst. That's more than enough to put a great team on the field if you spend it wisely. I don't feel like KW is spending the team's money wisely.
Jeremy, it's a gamble. You have to take chances. You can't just play it safe all the time. Money aside, we all know Contreras has better "stuff" than Loaiza. We all know Contreras has the ability to be 10 times the pitcher Loaiza ever is/was. But the chances of Contreras finding "it" is a lot higher than a guy like Garland. Our rotation can stack up with ANYBODY in the league right now. After all, the problem during this losing streak really isnt pitching. It's been the hitting.

Something that hasn't been discussed, Contreras is a big name. Maybe he can attract more fans. Quit worrying about money. The attendance has boomed this year, and even though it might trail off because of the losing streak, Contreras can bring some fans back. Jerry will spend money.

Sorry if some sentences don't make sense. I've been :gulp: tonight. Don't tell anybody, I'm not exactly of age. :D:

Aidan
08-01-2004, 12:00 AM
Contreras is signed for two more years at rediculous amount in millions. Now we're stuck with him. The Yankees are sending some money for this year, but it's out of the Sox pocket for the next two years. Contraras is the Yankees version of Loaiza. Basically, Steinbottom found a sucker to pay out millions to somebody who doesn't perform. Loaiza? They're done with him in 2 monthsWe will end up paying Contreras $12 million for 2 years. Loaiza wanted Freddy Garcia money ($9 million a season).

Aidan
08-01-2004, 12:02 AM
A one hit wonder owed 1 million is better than a pitcher with an ERA in the fives owed 14 million.

I'm sorry. I guess everyone is going to have to rip on me again but with only three million picked up I think this is a very poor deal. We must really think the world of Contreras because 6 million on the open market last season came very close to grabbing you Ponson (8 million) or Escobar (7 million) two of the top pitchers. I just don't think it's a good use of our limited budget. Everyone can complain to no end about how JR won't spend but 60 and maybe 70 million for a payroll next season is middle of the pack at the absolute worst. That's more than enough to put a great team on the field if you spend it wisely. I don't feel like KW is spending the team's money wisely.That fact is that you rip on any move that Kenny Williams makes. Why don't you just move to Oakland so you can be closer to the man you worship?

voodoochile
08-01-2004, 12:05 AM
We will end up paying Contreras $12 million for 2 years. Loaiza wanted Freddy Garcia money ($9 million a season).
Exactly. I don't think the Sox lose THAT much this year with Contreras instead of Loaiza and this gurantees them at least a 1,2,4,5 rotation to open next year. One middle of the rotation starter and they are set, or if Contreras lives up to billing and/or Garland finally puts it all together (should that be deep pink or teal?) they might only be looking for a 5.

If the offense finds some life, it won't matter which one we have this year either.

BigEdWalsh
08-01-2004, 12:10 AM
I like this trade, but I'm a little angered that it's all KW did. It almost seems to me that Sox management has conceded this season to the Twins and even the wild card to whomever. Not nearly enough was done to improve the Sox chances. Right now I'm happy about this trade but generally overall a little pi**ed off.:o:

Aidan
08-01-2004, 12:13 AM
I like this trade, but I'm a little angered that it's all KW did. It almost seems to me that Sox management has conceded this season to the Twins and even the wild card to whomever. Not nearly enough was done to improve the Sox chances. Right now I'm happy about this trade but generally overall a little pi**ed off.:o:You can't blame KW. He had a deal for Carlos Delgado but it fell through when Delgado wouldn't waive his no-trade clause.

voodoochile
08-01-2004, 12:21 AM
I like this trade, but I'm a little angered that it's all KW did. It almost seems to me that Sox management has conceded this season to the Twins and even the wild card to whomever. Not nearly enough was done to improve the Sox chances. Right now I'm happy about this trade but generally overall a little pi**ed off.:o:
:reinsy
"Hey, KW put $3M in my pocket this afternoon. I think he had a great day..."

BigEdWalsh
08-01-2004, 12:23 AM
You can't blame KW. He had a deal for Carlos Delgado but it fell through when Delgado wouldn't waive his no-trade clause.
Oh, I'm not saying it's his fault. I actually like most everything he's done the last couple of years. I just feel that more needed to be done and it wasn't. I'm sure he proabably wanted to do more. I can still be angry that more wasn't done, can't I?
:unsure:

JB98
08-01-2004, 12:34 AM
You can't blame KW. He had a deal for Carlos Delgado but it fell through when Delgado wouldn't waive his no-trade clause.

Delgado said probably a week ago he wouldn't waive the no-trade clause. Obviously, he meant what he said. KW was wasting his time pursuing that trade.

Can't argue with the Contreras move, though. It's a gamble, but it's a gamble worth taking. I hope the Yankees are happy with the Latin version of James Baldwin. See ya, E-Lo.

jeremyb1
08-01-2004, 01:04 AM
Jeremy, it's a gamble. You have to take chances. You can't just play it safe all the time. Money aside, we all know Contreras has better "stuff" than Loaiza. We all know Contreras has the ability to be 10 times the pitcher Loaiza ever is/was. But the chances of Contreras finding "it" is a lot higher than a guy like Garland. Our rotation can stack up with ANYBODY in the league right now. After all, the problem during this losing streak really isnt pitching. It's been the hitting.

Well we definitely agree that it's a gamble. There are good gambles and bad gambles though. Signing Loaiza to a minor league contract paying 500,000 if he makes the club is a good gamble since you're not risking much money or even a roster spot. Paying Contreras 6 million over the next two seasons is a much riskier gamble because 6 million can come close to landing you an All-Star calliber player in free agency. Might Contreras become an All-Star for our club? It's certainly not impossible, he's got great stuff by all accounts. However, we're talking about a guy that's been one of the worst starters in baseball this season. I completely disagree with the notion that he has the ability to be 10 times the pitcher Loaiza ever was. Past the obvious point that it's harder to be 10 times better than a mid 2 ERA and 22 wins, Loaiza was viewed similarly to Contreras when we signed him last season, as a guy with good stuff that hadn't panned out. The only difference was that he'd been given a few more chances.

jeremyb1
08-01-2004, 01:06 AM
We will end up paying Contreras $12 million for 2 years. Loaiza wanted Freddy Garcia money ($9 million a season).

Haha. I found that to be hilarious because that was in the Trib. I mean that sounds almost like some type of propaganda/smear campaign in my opinion. Who pays a pitcher with one great season, coming off a season with an ERA near 5 $8 million dollars?! He might ask for it but I don't see what that has to do with anything. We're not obligated to sign him just because he wants it. He can walk and then we have 6 million (!!!) to spend on a free agent. IIRC, that'd be the most this club has spent on a player in free agency since Albert Belle was signed.

jeremyb1
08-01-2004, 01:10 AM
That fact is that you rip on any move that Kenny Williams makes. Why don't you just move to Oakland so you can be closer to the man you worship?

Alright, I have a question for the Mods here. As we're in Sox Clubhouse, the posts are supposed to be about the White Sox, no? I've seen threads that are even tangential such as posters' frustration over Sox losses moved to the Roadhouse. Could we possibly move threads about my (or other posters') personal feelings on Ken Williams or Billy Beane to a different forum? I just don't see what they have to do with this trade or White Sox baseball. I find it petty and immature and I'm beyond tired of dealing with it at this point. Thanks.

Win1ForMe
08-01-2004, 01:26 AM
Hopefully, the move will do Contreras good (getting away from the New York media has to help, surely)
Ha. He won't last a second here, what with the inquistive eye of Joe Cowley and the tireless persistence of Bob Foltman (striving to provide insight for his readers, no doubt) constantly hanging around the locker room.

Rudy Law
08-01-2004, 01:45 AM
I want to wait until we hear exactly how much cash is involved before I vote.

Hey, look at that. I'm not a "moron Loaiza lover" and I still have a little bit of doubt about this trade!

They are picking up the rest of this season and then are paying about half of his salary for the next 2 years.....This a great deal...

Rudy Law
08-01-2004, 01:49 AM
If a Latin Clubhouse didn't help Loaiza, how will it help Contreras. Is he more Latin?
No but he is a way better pitcher, with way better stuff.....He just needs to learn how to use his pitches. He has got some nasty pitches, not to mention he can bring at almost 100mph. I know you would rather have Loaiza and his 89mph fastball, and his cutter everyone has figured out. Not to mention all those pitches that he leaves out over the plate.

Rudy Law
08-01-2004, 01:51 AM
oh yeah i forgot how Loaiza has only 1 win in last five, and hasnt giving up less than 4 runs since mid june. Face it, hes a one-hit wonder....with no relation to MLB hitting. But loaiza won 21 games last year, hes gonna win 21 every year, yeah! But yeah if we kept loaiza, central, here we come!
Not to mention his 154 hits in 118 innings.....Thats getting it done baby..WHOOOOOOO!

CWSGuy406
08-01-2004, 02:22 AM
Jeremy, I, for one, can totally see/understand where your coming from. We are going to be paying a guy six million a year for the next two years, who frankly, we don't know what we're going to get from him.

This is a high risk, high reward type of trade - and it could make our rotation one of the best in MLB, or it could really strangle us for two years.

Contreras, IMHO - this is just me - has the 'stuff' to be an ace. Some may argue that he's not that good, but watching him pitch a couple times on MLB Extra Innings, that's just what I think.

First things first, though - Kenny and Coop need to get Contreras to - how should I say it - not tip his pitches, if that makes any sense. Or throw all of his pitches in the same motion. If they can get that figured out, we have a really good pitcher on our hands.

Just wondering, Jeremy - do you like Contreras as the pitcher - taking money out of the equation? Other than allowing a lot of walks, his strikeout numbers are extremely high, and IIRC, he usually pitches more innings than hits given up, but that could be wrong.

The downsides of this are obvious, Contreras could not-listen to what Coop/Ozzie tell him to do, be a jerk, and barely be a good number 5.

This trade is huge for Kenny, IMHO. Let's hope it works out, and let's hope that Kenny just got us a very solid starter for the stretch run and beyond.

jeremyb1
08-01-2004, 02:46 AM
Just wondering, Jeremy - do you like Contreras as the pitcher - taking money out of the equation? Other than allowing a lot of walks, his strikeout numbers are extremely high, and IIRC, he usually pitches more innings than hits given up, but that could be wrong.

Hmm. Well first and foremost, this is a player that arguably two of the smarter teams in baseball got into a bidding war over last season, so that's obviously a plus. On the scouting front, pretty much everything you'll hear is positive. People claim he's got great stuff and that secured him a huge deal last offseason. Obviously he's a great pitcher for a guy with a 5.5 ERA (whatever that means).

As far as his numbers go, his walks are really high. BP's Joe Sheehan has theorized that he'll always struggle against teams with good plate discipline since he lacks good command. So far his stats would seem to bare that out as he's struggled quite a bit against the BoSox (one of the more disciplined teams around), Oakland, and the Dodgers (a total of three Moneyball clubs with a plate discipline emphasis) this season. He walked 13 in 19 IP vs. Oakland and Boston (although suprisingly none vs. LA). That is a really small sample size but just looking at his raw numbers he clearly walks too many guys.

His K's are certainly impressive and that's a good sign which contributes to his low hit total. Perhaps the biggest issue in my opinion is the long ball. Last season he allowed 4 home runs in 71 IP. This season he's allowed an unfathomable 22 home runs in 93 IP! That'd put him on pace to allow over 40 home runs in a 200 inning season! Clearly if he can cut down on the long ball and walks a bit he'd be a far better pitcher.

More than anything I view him as a huge question mark since he's only thrown about 160 innings and his performance in Cuba is hard to give any context to. You can look at that as a good thing since he could break out. From my standpoint with the amount of money we're paying him I look at it as a huge risk. If as you said, money was not an issue I'd say he's got a lot of upside so it's a good risk. I just feel like it's really hard to say with any kind of certainty what type of pitcher he's going to be for the rest of his career. It's a high risk high reward move if he's getting paid 3 or 4 million. With a 6 million dollar salary I'd say the risk is just much greater.

red faber
08-01-2004, 04:08 AM
trade one inconsistent pitcher for another inconsistent pitcher????????

yep,sounds like the white sox.

som much for the playoff aspirations!!!!:whiner:

flo-B-flo
08-01-2004, 04:10 AM
To me Loaiza is like the 2001 Bears. A fluke. Maybe he will succeed with the yankers. Who knows? I'm betting there will be long homers off of him in the playoffs.:rolleyes:

milrtyme28
08-01-2004, 05:10 AM
well, at least jose is signed for the next few seasons. I gues this could be a good thing or a bad thing. It is tough to tell what this trade really means at this point. I kind of seems like a wash to me. Im not sure that either team really was improved by this move, at least in the near term

ssviland
08-01-2004, 09:25 AM
As happy as I was for Loaiza to win 21 last year, I suspected it was a fluke. Anyone remember Steve Stone, John Denny or Pete Vukovich? I hoped he would be gone in the off-season, but then how many fans would be complaining about KW? A couple of weeks ago I told a co-worker that maybe we should unload Loaiza on the Yankees since Torre seems to like him enough to put him on the AS team.

This is a good deal more because we dumped Loaiza than that we added Contreras. Loaiza has been giving up 2 hits an inning since May! It's amazing that his ERA is not higher.

Another thing. When e replaced Alex Fernandez with Jaime Nevaro, their numbers had been nearly identical. But they were not the same pitcher. When healthy, Alex was as good or better with the Marlins. Nevaro was terrible, having overachieved with the Cubs. This trade could be the other way around. Contreras has better stuff and Loaiza overachieved last year.

We're sliding down the hill this season. Out of it? Maybe, maybe not. The Twins are not a very good team, we have just been terrible. We don't have to be that good to pass the Twins. But we are not getting by the first round. At least with this deal the top 4 in the rotation is set for next season and all we need to worry about is dealing with C, 2B, RF, and the bullpen.

Now, if we can only replace Mike Jackson with someone better than Pollitte!

jeremyb1
08-01-2004, 02:16 PM
well, at least jose is signed for the next few seasons

I don't mean to single you out but I keep hearing that statement. Even KW seems to imply the same. It seems like some of the most faulty logic ever to assume that it is good to have a player under contract because they'll continue to be on the team. It is good to have a player under contract only if their production is worth as much or more than you're paying them. Otherwise it's a huge burden that causes you to lose games.

I don't understand why people reason this way because I know the idea of a bad contract is understood. People were happy when we dumped Koch because we'd have more money to spend at the deadline. Why are they happy when we commit 6 million to Contreras over the next two seasons when we could spend that money on resigning Maggs or some other avenue?

voodoochile
08-01-2004, 02:22 PM
I don't mean to single you out but I keep hearing that statement. Even KW seems to imply the same. It seems like some of the most faulty logic ever to assume that it is good to have a player under contract because they'll continue to be on the team. It is good to have a player under contract only if their production is worth as much or more than you're paying them. Otherwise it's a huge burden that causes you to lose games.

I don't understand why people reason this way because I know the idea of a bad contract is understood. People were happy when we dumped Koch because we'd have more money to spend at the deadline. Why are they happy when we commit 6 million to Contreras over the next two seasons when we could spend that money on resigning Maggs or some other avenue?
Because of his potential and because of the price for starting pitching.

Why are you confused by this?

batmanZoSo
08-01-2004, 05:38 PM
A one hit wonder owed 1 million is better than a pitcher with an ERA in the fives owed 14 million.

I'm sorry. I guess everyone is going to have to rip on me again but with only three million picked up I think this is a very poor deal. We must really think the world of Contreras because 6 million on the open market last season came very close to grabbing you Ponson (8 million) or Escobar (7 million) two of the top pitchers. I just don't think it's a good use of our limited budget. Everyone can complain to no end about how JR won't spend but 60 and maybe 70 million for a payroll next season is middle of the pack at the absolute worst. That's more than enough to put a great team on the field if you spend it wisely. I don't feel like KW is spending the team's money wisely.
Well Ponson absolutely sucks and I don't know what Escobar's doing but I'm pretty sure last year was a career year.

jeremyb1
08-01-2004, 06:24 PM
Because of his potential and because of the price for starting pitching.

Why are you confused by this?

Yeah. I'm confused by how someone could post about the deal and not even mention the amount of money. We can all agree that some amount would be too much, correct? So it would seem critical to at least mention why 10 million is too much but 6 million isn't unless the reason is just that the White Sox made the deal so we'll give KW the benefit of the doubt.

jeremyb1
08-01-2004, 06:25 PM
Well Ponson absolutely sucks and I don't know what Escobar's doing but I'm pretty sure last year was a career year.

Well that's all well and good right now but that wasn't the sentiment on this board during the offseason. Escobar's been about as good as the past two seasons.

voodoochile
08-01-2004, 07:15 PM
Yeah. I'm confused by how someone could post about the deal and not even mention the amount of money. We can all agree that some amount would be too much, correct? So it would seem critical to at least mention why 10 million is too much but 6 million isn't unless the reason is just that the White Sox made the deal so we'll give KW the benefit of the doubt.
Because 10M is top two money and 6M is middle 2 money.

Since Contreras has the potential to be a top 2 and will definitely not be lower than 4 in the Sox rotation, it makes sense.

Of course if he turns into Navarro, no amount of money will be worth it...

Flight #24
08-01-2004, 07:40 PM
A one hit wonder owed 1 million is better than a pitcher with an ERA in the fives owed 14 million.

I'm sorry. I guess everyone is going to have to rip on me again but with only three million picked up I think this is a very poor deal. We must really think the world of Contreras because 6 million on the open market last season came very close to grabbing you Ponson (8 million) or Escobar (7 million) two of the top pitchers. I just don't think it's a good use of our limited budget. Everyone can complain to no end about how JR won't spend but 60 and maybe 70 million for a payroll next season is middle of the pack at the absolute worst. That's more than enough to put a great team on the field if you spend it wisely. I don't feel like KW is spending the team's money wisely.
Recent market data shows Escobar getting 6.25mil, Ponson getting 7, and Colon getting 11. Based on those, I'd say KW's got Garcia at a pretty solid price at 8mil per. Contreras would have gone higher based on last year's #s, but lower based on this year's. My guess is he'll improve a bit with the Sox and end up maybe marginally expensive at 6mil, with potential to be a very good deal as Coop works on him in ST & the offseason.

jeremyb1
08-02-2004, 02:16 AM
Because 10M is top two money and 6M is middle 2 money.

Since Contreras has the potential to be a top 2 and will definitely not be lower than 4 in the Sox rotation, it makes sense.

Of course if he turns into Navarro, no amount of money will be worth it...

Well he's been Navarro this season so he doesn't have to turn into him, he has to realize his potential not to be Navarro. My point remains that even if 6 million is way different than 10 million if we can all agree there's a point at which Contreras becomes a bad value, posts arguing for or against the trade should explain why it's a good or bad value at what we're paying him. That's essential to evaluating the trade in my opinion regardless of one's stance.

jeremyb1
08-02-2004, 02:23 AM
Recent market data shows Escobar getting 6.25mil, Ponson getting 7, and Colon getting 11. Based on those, I'd say KW's got Garcia at a pretty solid price at 8mil per. Contreras would have gone higher based on last year's #s, but lower based on this year's. My guess is he'll improve a bit with the Sox and end up maybe marginally expensive at 6mil, with potential to be a very good deal as Coop works on him in ST & the offseason.

I'm pretty sure Garcia is 7 million in '05, 9 million in '06, and 11 million in '07 so 9 million. I wouldn't say Garcia's deal is overpaying in the sense that I think he would've earned the same amount of money or very close on the free agent market. I think there's a solid chance it'll end up being overpaying regarding whether or that money could be better spent on other players if only because 9 million dollars is a lot of money to commit to a starting pitcher. In today's climate that's more or less top flight pitcher money and I have concerns about Garcia's ability to limit the long ball away from Safeco and his '02 and '03 seasons.

I'd say that Contreras probably would've gone in the Escobar/Ponson range (many argued those clubs overpaid at the time) had he been signed this past offseason. His stats were really good last season but a lot of that time was coming out of the bullpen and there was a definite perception that he struggled with the Yanks regardless of it's accuracy. Assuming he finished out the season in NY with similar stats I'd guess he'd get about 2 or 3 million based on his potential this upcoming offseason where he a free agent.

I do have faith in Coop and faith in Contreras that he's not this poor a pitcher. It's just a matter of whether or not he can justify such a lofty salary and I have a lot of skepticism there.

OEO Magglio
08-02-2004, 02:28 AM
I'm pretty sure Garcia is 7 million in '05, 9 million in '06, and 11 million in '07 so 9 million. I wouldn't say Garcia's deal is overpaying in the sense that I think he would've earned the same amount of money or very close on the free agent market. I think there's a solid chance it'll end up being overpaying regarding whether or that money could be better spent on other players if only because 9 million dollars is a lot of money to commit to a starting pitcher. In today's climate that's more or less top flight pitcher money and I have concerns about Garcia's ability to limit the long ball away from Safeco and his '02 and '03 seasons.

I'd say that Contreras probably would've gone in the Escobar/Ponson range (many argued those clubs overpaid at the time) had he been signed this past offseason. His stats were really good last season but a lot of that time was coming out of the bullpen and there was a definite perception that he struggled with the Yanks regardless of it's accuracy. Assuming he finished out the season in NY with similar stats I'd guess he'd get about 2 or 3 million based on his potential this upcoming offseason where he a free agent.

I do have faith in Coop and faith in Contreras that he's not this poor a pitcher. It's just a matter of whether or not he can justify such a lofty salary and I have a lot of skepticism there.Garcia's contract, is 8 mill in 05, 9 mill in 06, and 10 mill in 07, I disagree with you about Garcia and Contreras but we've been over this, so no need to re start this argument, I'll just agree to disagree.:smile: