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Viva Magglio
07-30-2004, 10:28 PM
If we fail to make the playoffs, or even if we make it but exit early, should Ken Williams be fired?

Win1ForMe
07-30-2004, 10:29 PM
No Way!!

EDIT:

Kenny's only fault was not diversifying the lineup before the season. Truth be told, I thought getting rid of Manuel would make our corpseball spells a thing of the past. After this year changes should finally be made.

Jurr
07-30-2004, 10:31 PM
Not his fault the heart of his order got hurt. Period.

ChiWhiteSox1337
07-30-2004, 10:31 PM
no. i want to see how some of his draft picks turn out. a lot of the team right now is still just the team inherited from schu with a few tweaks. this team could've had a magical season this year if maggs and frank thomas were healthy.

OEO Magglio
07-30-2004, 10:32 PM
NO. Kenny is one of the few who's actually done his job well the last couple of years.

Lip Man 1
07-30-2004, 10:40 PM
With respect to Viva I don't think your conclusions are on the money.

Kenny Willaims and Jerry Reinsdorf have known each other for almost twenty years. They have a close genuine friendship. Reinsdorf personally flew to Williams' parents home and convinced them to let their son sign with the Sox. He told Williams' father 'I'll take care of your son...'

Considering how Reinsdorf values loyalty (remember Jerry Krause) there is no way that he'd consider firing Williams. Now Williams might resign someday but I would think that'll only be for health reasons or if the Sox ever get new ownership. In short Williams has the job as long as HE wants to.

On his loyalty: ".He goes up to Rod (Thorn’s) office, Jerry came back downstairs and he was ashen-faced. The man was white. I looked at him and said ‘what’s wrong with you?’ He said, ‘you know in all my years at Balcor I only fired one person. That’s only the second person I’ve fired in my life. I don’t like firing people.’ And I thought, ‘Gee, that’s a great sign. Here’s an owner who doesn’t want to fire anybody." –Jerry Krause to Roland Lazenby. From the book And Now, Your Chicago Bulls! Pg. 144.

"When I retired, Jerry said, ‘I’ll take care of you. I owe you.’ But he paid me back when he brought me to Birmingham."–Michael Jordan to Melissa Isaacson. From the book Transition Game. Pg. 11.

"I just wanted to give him a bonus that’s all. I never thought he (Michael Jordan) was coming back." – Jerry Reinsdorf to Roland Lazenby. From the book Blood On The Horns. Pg. 68.

"Reinsdorf believed (Phil) Jackson was being disloyal by even thinking about leaving the team and loyalty is a trait most respected by Reinsdorf."– Sam Smith. From the book Second Coming. Pg. 344.

Lip

gosox41
07-30-2004, 11:39 PM
no. i want to see how some of his draft picks turn out. a lot of the team right now is still just the team inherited from schu with a few tweaks. this team could've had a magical season this year if maggs and frank thomas were healthy.
There has been only a few tweaks because KW hasn't shaken anything up. Most players are here because KW wants them here and signed them at some point to a contract when he could have traded/ let them go.

In fact the only person that's still here that KW tried to force out is Frank Thomas. But when healthy his bat has really killed the team.

KW has made some good trades in getting Uribe and Harris, but those guys are utility players at best. He has failed to find any good long term solutions to the holes on this team. Outside of Marte and Garcia, what long term move has paid off for him. Notice how I highlighted long term. And I'm not talking about moves made up to shore up a run at the playoffs. Those are different before all of you jump on me please feel free to read everything.

I'm talking about moves like filling our CF hole or filling the hole at catcher, something KW did before he traded him. Or how about finding a 5th starter that doesn't have a 9.00 ERA for the season. Ort how about a viable 4th starter. Now that Garcia is here, Loaiza/Schoenweis get to be the 4-5 starters. Yet we're paying htem a combined $6.5 mill for crappy production. Where's the farm system? When is a KW drafted and developed prospect going to make a positive impact on the White Sox?


While it sucks that Frank and Magglio are hurt and it definitely isn't KW's fault yet it does hurt the Sox chances to win, where's the depth.

Have you seen the numbers on Harris, Uribe, Crede, Davis, Alomar, Burke, Perez, Gload, Jackson, and Cotts. With the exception of Crede, these are all KW guys. And none are playing well. If the Sox had any sort of death KW probably would have sat Crede a long time ago, but they don't.

It's good to see Garcia and Marte doing really well. Politte has been a good pick up and has helped the team.

But the guys mentioned above aren't going to be anything special. Again not faulting KW for trading an Aaron Miles for a Juan Uribe...good move. But where are the long term solutions to some of our holes? He can't honestly think that half, let alone all those guys listed above are going to be statistically average ML players at their position when compared to everyday players on other teams. If he does then we need a new GM.



Bob

pearso66
07-30-2004, 11:42 PM
Not many teams have depth that can fill in for their top 2 players. We did ok when 1 of htem was out, but when the offense is dependant on those 2 players, its hard to do well when they are both out. Even if JR was thinking of firing KW, there is no way you can blame not making the postseason this year on him. I am fully using Maggs and Thomas as an excuse. And I hate to make excuses.

voodoochile
07-30-2004, 11:45 PM
I realize there are other factors at stake, but I don't see how you can blame KW for both Maggs and Frank going down for 2 months in the heart of the pennant race. This team was well constructed and they would still be winning, IMO if not for the loss of their two biggest bats.

Tough call, but I think JR will give KW at least 2 more years...

gosox41
07-30-2004, 11:49 PM
I realize there are other factors at stake, but I don't see how you can blame KW for both Maggs and Frank going down for 2 months in the heart of the pennant race. This team was well constructed and they would still be winning, IMO if not for the loss of their two biggest bats.

Tough call, but I think JR will give KW at least 2 more years...
Maybe by then a player drafted and developed by the Sox while KW was GM will be making a positive impact for this team.

I am definitely frustraded. This team hasn't hit the whole month of July. I think there average is like .238 or something. As great as Frank and Magglio are, even if they were healthy they wouldn't have that much of an effect on the other guys not hitting. All those 'grinders' that KW got that were playing so well at the beginning of the season were playing over their heads then. The last 2-3 months you've seen the real Uribe and the real Harris and the real Gload. April was the fluke not May-July.


Bob

RKMeibalane
07-30-2004, 11:50 PM
I realize there are other factors at stake, but I don't see how you can blame KW for both Maggs and Frank going down for 2 months in the heart of the pennant race. This team was well constructed and they would still be winning, IMO if not for the loss of their two biggest bats.

Tough call, but I think JR will give KW at least 2 more years...
Agreed. The people who expected this team to not miss a beat without Frank and Maggs aren't being realistic. We're talking about a future HOF'er and an All Star caliber player. Teams don't lose players like that and keep rolling along. But then again, what the hell do I know?

Randar68
07-30-2004, 11:51 PM
Maybe by then a player drafted and developed by the Sox while KW was GM will be making a positive impact for this team.
He's had to trade all those MLB-ready players over the past couple years to add guys in the second half because he hasn't been given the budget to do it in the offseason. You can't contend on the cheap without mortgaging your system.

pearso66
07-30-2004, 11:55 PM
Maybe by then a player drafted and developed by the Sox while KW was GM will be making a positive impact for this team.

I am definitely frustraded. This team hasn't hit the whole month of July. I think there average is like .238 or something. As great as Frank and Magglio are, even if they were healthy they wouldn't have that much of an effect on the other guys not hitting. All those 'grinders' that KW got that were playing so well at the beginning of the season were playing over their heads then. The last 2-3 months you've seen the real Uribe and the real Harris and the real Gload. April was the fluke not May-July.


Bob
I think a healthy Frank and or Maggs would have helped this team a lot. Usually when those 2 are hot, the rest of the team starts getting hot. I think the problem is that the team knows frank and maggs are injured, of cousre they do right?, and they are all trying to replace that production by hitting every ball out. I think they are overcompensating.

voodoochile
07-31-2004, 12:00 AM
He's had to trade all those MLB-ready players over the past couple years to add guys in the second half because he hasn't been given the budget to do it in the offseason. You can't contend on the cheap without mortgaging your system.
Or he could have kept waiting for next year... :rolleyes:

Like it or not, this is the Sox window. Frank at the tail end of his career, but still a massive force when healthy, Maggs, Carlos and PK all in their prime, Buehrle coming into his prime. There was ample reason to believe this team could win with the right additions. Some of those have paid off, some of those haven't, but regardless of this year, the Sox stand a good chance of being a contender next year again.

Maggs Price will come down.
Frank will definitely take his option.
Buehrle, Garland and Garcia are all signed.
ELo probably will be affordable.
Everett will make a good cheap bat off the bench or a solid replacement for Maggs if Maggs does leave.

I'm not saying wait until next year, I hope the Sox can hold it together and get at least one of Frank or Maggs back and make a late season run at the playoffs and beyond. But, if it doesn't happen, I cannot really blame KW.

No team loses that much talent for that long and goes on wining without a hitch.

JRIG
07-31-2004, 08:44 AM
Judging by the results of the poll, it appears once again, competing in one of the worst divisions in baseball for the fourth consecutive year with the highest payroll in that division KW will be given a free pass if his team, that he constructed, fails to make the playofs.

Despite that fact he hasn't addressed the centerfield situation, the second base situation since Durham left, the catcher situation (tried to, but then traded Olivo), has strip-mined the farm system for temporary plugs, leaving the team with no organizational depth to replace Frank and Mags, apparently believes Joe Borchard is a better prospect than Jeremy Reed, continues to speak "out of school" (Frank's injury, Rauch, etc.), and has had no minor league players drafted and developed under his regime even sniff being productive players at the major league level.

Other than that, yeah, let's give him as many years as he needs to take this team to the playoffs once.

gosox41
07-31-2004, 08:51 AM
He's had to trade all those MLB-ready players over the past couple years to add guys in the second half because he hasn't been given the budget to do it in the offseason. You can't contend on the cheap without mortgaging your system.
But a lot of those guys aren't even going to make the majors. I know the reliever in Texas did, but he's a reliever so it's no great loss there. And Royce Ring, the 2002 first round pick, isn't inthe majors yet.

IMHO, the 2 guys that were the most ML ready that we lost are Rauch and Reed. I never said Rauch was going to be a superstar but I think he could be a 12-15 game winner. But last year many were saying that we gave up little to get Alomar and and Everett. Outside of those 2 guys and maybe Morse I don't see anyone else who would have any sort of impact on this team that we gave up.


Bob

gosox41
07-31-2004, 08:55 AM
I think a healthy Frank and or Maggs would have helped this team a lot. Usually when those 2 are hot, the rest of the team starts getting hot. I think the problem is that the team knows frank and maggs are injured, of cousre they do right?, and they are all trying to replace that production by hitting every ball out. I think they are overcompensating.
They definitely would have helped. But my point was that KW has done so little for this team to build up its depth. Sure he makes good trades like getting rid of career minor leaguer Miles for a younger, better defensive player in Uribe. But guys like Uribe and Harris are utlity players and nothing else. He hasn't addressed any of the long term holes on this team. Heck the guy even screwed up evaluating CF. He brought guys like Lofton in when he had Aaron Rowand here and never gave him a fair shot. If you (or KW) think Rowand is playing over his head, now would be an excellent time to 'sell high' and trade him.


Bob

chisoxt
07-31-2004, 09:01 AM
no. i want to see how some of his draft picks turn out. a lot of the team right now is still just the team inherited from schu with a few tweaks. this team could've had a magical season this year if maggs and frank thomas were healthy.
Kenny has used prospects in deals to get the types of middle shelf players that frankly, should have been obtained during the off-season via free agency. That is poor general managing. Now, apologists will say that the prospects we gave up in return were not going to be be star major league players anyway. That is an indictment on two levels; If these prospects do turn out to be legit, then shame on Kenny for motgaging the future. On the other hand, if these players turn out to be nothing, then what in the hell is going on with the player development in this organization, as these players were regard as being some of the better ones in our system? Kenny has been the GM since 2001 and has presided over three drafts. We should be seeing some better results by now. And don't give me this BS that the Sox record over the last few years has precluded them from the higher draft picks. Oakland and Minnesota both have had better records during that stretch and they contiune to produce terrific young players.

gosox41
07-31-2004, 09:01 AM
Judging by the results of the poll, it appears once again, competing in one of the worst divisions in baseball for the fourth consecutive year with the highest payroll in that division KW will be given a free pass if his team, that he constructed, fails to make the playofs.

Despite that fact he hasn't addressed the centerfield situation, the second base situation since Durham left, the catcher situation (tried to, but then traded Olivo), has strip-mined the farm system for temporary plugs, leaving the team with no organizational depth to replace Frank and Mags, apparently believes Joe Borchard is a better prospect than Jeremy Reed, continues to speak "out of school" (Frank's injury, Rauch, etc.), and has had no minor league players drafted and developed under his regime even sniff being productive players at the major league level.

Other than that, yeah, let's give him as many years as he needs to take this team to the playoffs once.

Thanks for saying pretty much everything I was thinking. I don't necessarily agree with you about trading the farm system to get a guy like Garcia. The way I see it, the Sox farm system wasn't all that good to begin with which is why it looks so bad right now. Losing Rauch, Reed, and maybe Morse hurt the most. The rest if the minor leaguers we gave up I had no problem trading.

And to make things worse, Cleveland and Detroit are on the upswing. I thought at the beginning of hte year Cleveland would be the surprise team in the AL Central. They actually have GM's who now how to draft and develop talent. Years on having high draft picks will pay off for them. Heck, even KC is going to be a tougher team next year. Not that they're going to contend, but they should win more games then this year.

Magglio is pretty much gone after this year unless he wants to take a 1 year cheap, incentive laden contract to prove he's healthy. I wouldn't sign a long term deal with a guy who may have a degernative knee condition unless you can sign him for a low base salary plus incentives. Hopefully Frank won't get sick of the BS that he sees here and skip town or else we're really hosed.


Bob

gosox41
07-31-2004, 09:05 AM
Kenny has used prospects in deals to get the types of middle shelf players that frankly, should have been obtained during the off-season via free agency. That is poor general managing. Now, apologists will say that the prospects we gave up in return were not going to be be star major league players anyway. That is an indictment on two levels; If these prospects do turn out to be legit, then shame on Kenny for motgaging the future. On the other hand, if these players turn out to be nothing, then what in the hell is going on with the player development in this organization, as these players were regard as being some of the better ones in our system? Kenny has been the GM since 2001 and has presided over three drafts. We should be seeing some better results by now. And don't give me this BS that the Sox record over the last few years has precluded them from the higher draft picks. Oakland and Minnesota both have had better records during that stretch and they contiune to produce terrific young players.
Actually KW persided over the 2000 draft according to people at this website. So 2004 was his fifth draft. Yet there aren't any impact players from 2000-2002, outside orf Borchard, that are still with the team. Usually a player that is going to have major league potential will show something in their first 3 minor league seasons, but definitely their 4th and 5th. I don't expect the 2003-2004 drafts to pay off for a couple of years.

I think the farm system is just weak. A lot of potential and no return from a lot of these guys.


Bob

voodoochile
07-31-2004, 09:35 AM
Judging by the results of the poll, it appears once again, competing in one of the worst divisions in baseball for the fourth consecutive year with the highest payroll in that division KW will be given a free pass if his team, that he constructed, fails to make the playofs.

Despite that fact he hasn't addressed the centerfield situation, the second base situation since Durham left, the catcher situation (tried to, but then traded Olivo), has strip-mined the farm system for temporary plugs, leaving the team with no organizational depth to replace Frank and Mags, apparently believes Joe Borchard is a better prospect than Jeremy Reed, continues to speak "out of school" (Frank's injury, Rauch, etc.), and has had no minor league players drafted and developed under his regime even sniff being productive players at the major league level.

Other than that, yeah, let's give him as many years as he needs to take this team to the playoffs once.
Do you feel that with Frank and Maggs this team was constructed to make the playoffs this year? How many teams have the "organizational depth" to replace their two best hitters?

OEO Magglio
07-31-2004, 09:39 AM
Do you feel that with Frank and Maggs this team was constructed to make the playoffs this year? How many teams have the "organizational depth" to replace their two best hitters?Nobody, absolutely nobody. With maggs and Frank this team was playing like one of the best teams in the league even before kenny went out and acquired freddy. It's unrealisic to expect kenny to be able to have the depth and the money to replace frank and maggs. This team is so far from being dead, they can get on one little hot streak, get right back within striking distance of first, get one of maggs and frank back and then they got a great chance to get into the playoffs but if not it's all kenny's fault for not aniticipating the injuries of his two best players.:rolleyes:

JRIG
07-31-2004, 09:42 AM
Do you feel that with Frank and Maggs this team was constructed to make the playoffs this year? How many teams have the "organizational depth" to replace their two best hitters?
No, I don't. If you check my pre-season prediction here, I had us pegged at 79 wins.

I idn't know at the time Frank and Mags would go down, but of course also didn't know we'd pick up Garcia.

OG4LIFE
07-31-2004, 09:42 AM
Do you feel that with Frank and Maggs this team was constructed to make the playoffs this year? How many teams have the "organizational depth" to replace their two best hitters?
the twins replaced shannon stewart and doug mienkiewicz with lew ford and justin morneau

OEO Magglio
07-31-2004, 09:43 AM
the twins replaced shannon stewart and doug mienkiewicz with lew ford and justin morneauOh god, please don't compare Shannon Stewart and Doug Mientakfhadlfdafdanflds with Frank and Maggs.

JRIG
07-31-2004, 09:45 AM
Do you feel that with Frank and Maggs this team was constructed to make the playoffs this year? How many teams have the "organizational depth" to replace their two best hitters?
The Angels replaced Troy Glaus and Garrett Anderson.

voodoochile
07-31-2004, 09:48 AM
No, I don't. If you check my pre-season prediction here, I had us pegged at 79 wins.

I idn't know at the time Frank and Mags would go down, but of course also didn't know we'd pick up Garcia.
Yeah, I too predicted low 80's wins and a second place finish. I am not talking about that prediction. I am talking about after they acquired Garcia and when they still had Frank and Maggs. Heck, even after Frank went down and they brought in Everett.

Yes, it was a brief window, but during that window, did you feel the Sox were a playoff caliber team? I did. Heck, I thought they had a chance to get past the first round or two...

voodoochile
07-31-2004, 09:49 AM
The Angels replaced Troy Glaus and Garrett Anderson.
With who?

Also, are those the two best hitters on the team? Come on. The Sox lost their #3 and #4 hitters and a combined 2.000 of OPS if they were healthy all year.

JRIG
07-31-2004, 10:01 AM
With who?

Also, are those the two best hitters on the team? Come on. The Sox lost their #3 and #4 hitters and a combined 2.000 of OPS if they were healthy all year.
Well, Vlad is obviously #1, but those guys are a clear 2/3, right?

Angels used Chone Figgins at third, but could have brought up Dallad McPherson. They also have Robb Quinlan and Casey Kotchman and a darn good bench-typ guy in Jeff DaVanon.

Win1ForMe
07-31-2004, 10:02 AM
Heck the guy even screwed up evaluating CF. He brought guys like Lofton in when he had Aaron Rowand here and never gave him a fair shot.
That's the stupidest thing I have read to date, Kenny Williams "screwed up evaluating CF?" Aaron Rowand is a loser. He has a .734 OPS against right handers. That's pathetic. And this may be a shock, but right-handers are the predominant pitchers in baseball. He shouldn't be a regular on this team, but with injuries to Frank and Maggs, he's been forced into that situation.

voodoochile
07-31-2004, 10:05 AM
Well, Vlad is obviously #1, but those guys are a clear 2/3, right?

Angels used Chone Figgins at third, but could have brought up Dallad McPherson. They also have Robb Quinlan and Casey Kotchman and a darn good bench-typ guy in Jeff DaVanon.
Okay, so which of the guys KW has traded over the past few years would have helped the Sox in this situation?

You want more depth? Tell JR to up the payroll.

I still contend that in Early July this team looked like a pennant contender. Then things got messy...

Viva Magglio
07-31-2004, 10:19 AM
For the record, I voted to keep KW. I just threw out the question to gauge your opinions. Just because I post a poll does not mean I support the affirmative.

JRIG
07-31-2004, 10:36 AM
Okay, so which of the guys KW has traded over the past few years would have helped the Sox in this situation?

You want more depth? Tell JR to up the payroll.

I still contend that in Early July this team looked like a pennant contender. Then things got messy...
AL Central Champ contender? Most certainly. But I still think there was a decent gap talent-wise between this team and the Yankees or Red Sox. That said, once in the playoffs, anything can happen.

In terms of guys helping now -- Although I know 99% of the posters here disagree, D'Angelo Jimenez would have been a nice lead off man a second baseman to have right now. Jeremy Reed was our best OBP man in the organization, and at least may have/would have taken some of the "on-base" sting out of losing Frank and Mags. And if we hadn't given up most of our depth, we may have been in a better situation to add a big bat via trade. That's just speculation though.

OEO Magglio
07-31-2004, 10:38 AM
AL Central Champ contender? Most certainly. But I still think there was a decent gap talent-wise between this team and the Yankees or Red Sox. That said, once in the playoffs, anything can happen.

In terms of guys helping now -- Although I know 99% of the posters here disagree, D'Angelo Jimenez would have been a nice lead off man a second baseman to have right now. Jeremy Reed was our best OBP man in the organization, and at least may have/would have taken some of the "on-base" sting out of losing Frank and Mags. And if we hadn't given up most of our depth, we may have been in a better situation to add a big bat via trade. That's just speculation though.D'angelo Jiminez is one of the worst players in baseball to have on a team that is trying to win a pennant, I could care less what his obp is.

voodoochile
07-31-2004, 10:39 AM
AL Central Champ contender? Most certainly. But I still think there was a decent gap talent-wise between this team and the Yankees or Red Sox. That said, once in the playoffs, anything can happen.

In terms of guys helping now -- Although I know 99% of the posters here disagree, D'Angelo Jimenez would have been a nice lead off man a second baseman to have right now. Jeremy Reed was our best OBP man in the organization, and at least may have/would have taken some of the "on-base" sting out of losing Frank and Mags. And if we hadn't given up most of our depth, we may have been in a better situation to add a big bat via trade. That's just speculation though.
You are projecting that Reed would have come up and actually made a significant contribution. That is nothing but speculation. Certainly Garcia was a good pickup and having him signed for the next 3 years gives the Sox a solid 1-2 until the end of 2006.

Jimenez hasn't exactly been lighting it up for the Reds this season. You should check his stats. Uribe - even though slumping recently - is as good a player.

JRIG
07-31-2004, 10:57 AM
You are projecting that Reed would have come up and actually made a significant contribution. That is nothing but speculation. Certainly Garcia was a good pickup and having him signed for the next 3 years gives the Sox a solid 1-2 until the end of 2006.

Jimenez hasn't exactly been lighting it up for the Reds this season. You should check his stats. Uribe - even though slumping recently - is as good a player.
Uribe has more power obiously, but I'd rather have Jimenez' OBP. For what the team needs, Jimenez is a much better fit.

And of course my Reed projection is speculation. But I think he was by far our best chance to come up and contribute immediately.

voodoochile
07-31-2004, 11:00 AM
Uribe has more power obiously, but I'd rather have Jimenez' OBP. For what the team needs, Jimenez is a much better fit.

And of course my Reed projection is speculation. But I think he was by far our best chance to come up and contribute immediately.
Possibly, but you cannot argue that Garcia IS contributing immediately, no question mark about it.

JRIG
07-31-2004, 11:09 AM
Possibly, but you cannot argue that Garcia IS contributing immediately, no question mark about it.
No doubt. But my understanding of that trade is that Seattle would have accepted Crede or Borchard instead of Reed. Either would have been a much better choice to send away.

ondafarm
07-31-2004, 11:20 AM
Actually, I'd prefer to fire Reinsdorf. I wish he had taken the team to St Petersburg as the Sailors. There is no way the AL would have let Chicago stayas an NL only city.

Randar68
07-31-2004, 11:21 AM
Uribe has more power obiously, but I'd rather have Jimenez' OBP. For what the team needs, Jimenez is a much better fit.
WHAT? This team needs another lazy-ass,bone-headed baserunner who falls asleep in the field in clutch situations?

His attitude and terrible timing in his mistakes, predominantly mental-ones, aren't worth .200 points of OBP to a team trying to make the playoffs. *****.

Randar68
07-31-2004, 11:21 AM
No doubt. But my understanding of that trade is that Seattle would have accepted Crede or Borchard instead of Reed. Either would have been a much better choice to send away.
Wrong, wrong wrong. It was Crede or Olivo.

Lip Man 1
07-31-2004, 11:25 AM
Voodoo says: "You want more depth. Tel JR to up the payroll."

Ding, Ding, Ding, Ding!

We have a winner.

You can't have 90 million dollars worth of talent and depth on a 60-65 million dollar payroll.

You get what you pay for.

(That's not a rip at Uncle Jerry by the way, just the facts of economics)

Talent costs money...depth costs money. Sometimes I don't understand why fans can't see this. The Sox went into this season with a number of question marks for a contender. (To many in my book which is why I had them second). Some of those question marks played well in the beginning but they are now playing the way their track records indicated that they would. Couple that with the two injuries and you see the results.

It'll be an interesting off season. The Sox have a number of key free agents, yet their income / revenue should be better with projected attendance this year at 2.2 million.

We'll see how that translates into payroll and maneuverability this off season.

Lip

ma-gaga
07-31-2004, 11:47 AM
Do you feel that with Frank and Maggs this team was constructed to make the playoffs this year? How many teams have the "organizational depth" to replace their two best hitters?Nobody can replace 2.000 OPS worth of production from two players.
How many teams HAVE a 1-2 punch like that?

San Fran, because Bonds is godlike. St.Louis because Edmonds/Rolen/Pujols have 3.000 OPS+ between them. Boston because of Manny/Ortiz. Colorado because they have Coors field.

That's it. There's only 11 players with an ops over 1.000. Besides, Maggs' OPS this year was 'only' 0.836. A significant dropoff. So, really you can replace Maggs production numbers, Frank Thomas is tough to replace.

Some teams have the depth to absorb the loss of their best two players. But very few 'contending' teams do. Minnesota does, St.Louis does, NYY does. Who is the second best hitter on Oakland? They absorbed Chavez breaking a leg this year. Texas has a ton of good hitting kids, they could probably lose Blalock and Soriano and keep mashing. Who else, Boston? Could they lose Manny/Ortiz and compete? Probably. Philly has 4-5 good bats, they could probably lose 2 and compete, Marlins would be devastated if Lowell/Cabrera got hurt. LA, I'm not sure about. Beltre is awesome, and who else do they have??? Milton Bradley? Please.

I guess, in answer to your question, yes, several teams could lose their two best players for 2 months and continue to perform. But no team is nearly as top heavy as the W.Sox (besides San Fran and the Marlins). It's partially payroll related, it's partially part of "the plan".

ma-gaga
07-31-2004, 12:03 PM
Wrong, wrong wrong. It was Crede or Olivo.Just did a quick check

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/text/2001967810_marinews29.html





Early Sunday in Chicago, White Sox GM Kenny Williams admitted Garcia was his No. 1 target, but he said the chances of getting him were iffy.

Seattle reportedly had asked for Olivo and third baseman Joe Crede, but the White Sox offered Crede and Reed. Reed was Topps Minor League Player of the Year in 2003 after batting .373.

Seattle asked for Olivo, Reed and Morse. The White Sox wanted 72 hours to sign Garcia a week ago. The Mariners refused and the deal went into limbo for days.

When the teams started to talk again, the Mariners made it clear they wouldn't agree to an advance signing. The White Sox backed off again, then asked for 24 hours. The Mariners said no again. Suddenly, in the middle of Sunday's game at Safeco Field, the White Sox called and agreed, which got Bavasi hustling




It looks like all the Mariners would accept was either Olivo/Crede or Olivo/Reed. It looks like the W.Sox offered Crede/Reed. So everyone is right! Yay! I come bringing unity to the board!

habibharu
07-31-2004, 12:20 PM
Wow, unbelievable! I cant beleive the support this guys gets! This team, except for a few stretches here and there, has played like crap since the second half of 2000! The manager has already taken the fall for that, and now it is the GM's turn! FIRE KENNY!

OEO Magglio
07-31-2004, 12:29 PM
Wow, unbelievable! I cant beleive the support this guys gets! This team, except for a few stretches here and there, has played like crap since the second half of 2000! The manager has already taken the fall for that, and now it is the GM's turn! FIRE KENNY!What the hell do you want the guy to do? From now on if kenny has to predict the future with his two best players getting injured, convince JR to increase the payroll by a lot so he can pick up two other superstars. You make no sense, kenny has done a great job since he's got here, every year he's put the most talented team in the division on the field, get over your hatred for kenny and realize he's done a very good job.

habibharu
07-31-2004, 12:32 PM
What the hell do you want the guy to do? From now on if kenny has to predict the future with his two best players getting injured, convince JR to increase the payroll by a lot so he can pick up two other superstars. You make no sense, kenny has done a great job since he's got here, every year he's put the most talented team in the division on the field, get over your hatred for kenny and realize he's done a very good job. no he hasnt done a very good job! he didnt adress the bullpen properly, he didnt address 3b properly, and he didnt address 2b and SS properly! I realize that Frank and Maggs are hurt, and that of course is not his fault, but come on, dont you beleive that we could of been playing just as bad with those two in? It has happened the past 4 yrs!

OEO Magglio
07-31-2004, 12:35 PM
no he hasnt done a very good job! he didnt adress the bullpen properly, he didnt address 3b properly, and he didnt address 2b and SS properly! I realize that Frank and Maggs are hurt, and that of course is not his fault, but come on, dont you beleive that we could of been playing just as bad with those two in? It has happened the past 4 yrs!Why would it happen this year? Maybe it was the managers fault the last couple years, with maggs and frank in the lineup the sox were playing as good as anyteam in baseball and this was before they acquired freddy. If this team ever gets fully healed and we get to see frank and maggs together in september you'll realize how good this team really is.

habibharu
07-31-2004, 12:37 PM
Why would it happen this year? Maybe it was the managers fault the last couple years, with maggs and frank in the lineup the sox were playing as good as anyteam in baseball and this was before they acquired freddy. If this team ever gets fully healed and we get to see frank and maggs together in september you'll realize how good this team really is. Come on, you know better than that! The only difference between this yr. and last yr. is that this year they fell apart after the break and last year the started out like crap and got hot late, but like always fell apart in the end!

OEO Magglio
07-31-2004, 12:42 PM
Come on, you know better than that! The only difference between this yr. and last yr. is that this year they fell apart after the break and last year the started out like crap and got hot late, but like always fell apart in the end!No, I know that when this team had their two best players there wasn't a team in this league they couldn't compete with and that was before they got Freddy.

habibharu
07-31-2004, 12:46 PM
No, I know that when this team had their two best players there wasn't a team in this league they couldn't compete with and that was before they got Freddy. What about last year? you cant possible put all of the blame on JM? in the HUGE twins series, where were Frank and Maggs? And last year the also had CY Young Loaiza and Colon and still couldnt win! what makes you think that they would have won this year?