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idseer
09-30-2001, 12:16 AM
dead horse? well not really. just an observation.

whenever i backed clayton it was for his defense. i've never made the claim that he can hit with jose.
but damn, aren't these numbers interesting?

AB R H RBI BB SO SB SF OBP AVG

royce 412 59 109 58 32 65 9 7 .317 .265

jose 425 72 110 65 48 113 9 2 .337 .259


jose has more power but rbi's aren't that far apart. jose walks more but also strikes out close to twice as much. obp isn't horribly far apart.

oldcomiskey
09-30-2001, 11:34 AM
aint this intersting too--clayton totaly stunk up the first half while Manos was a man without a position and plus Valentin hashad a sore hammy all season---you Clayton backers never cease to amaze me--Royce comes in and takes ABs away from Milk--who earned a spot on this roster last season--plus he made Valentin a man without a postion which forced the defense to be worse--all for a light hitting ss with NO RANGE

LongDistanceFan
09-30-2001, 11:52 AM
Originally posted by oldcomiskey
aint this intersting too--clayton totaly stunk up the first half that is the point i been trying to make. Jose was consistent the WHOLE season, whereas clayton just reek and caused problems. Jose never complain nor was he a distraction, he was just a soldier and accepted what was given.

idseer
09-30-2001, 02:00 PM
Originally posted by oldcomiskey
aint this intersting too--clayton totaly stunk up the first half while Manos was a man without a position and plus Valentin hashad a sore hammy all season---you Clayton backers never cease to amaze me--Royce comes in and takes ABs away from Milk--who earned a spot on this roster last season--plus he made Valentin a man without a postion which forced the defense to be worse--all for a light hitting ss with NO RANGE

after giving much thought to how he stunk up the first half ... did you ever give him his due for being a big part of the sox ability to finally surge past .500 and claiming 2nd place? i don't think you can make a claim that jose helped at all during the 2nd half, can you?
and milk didn't 'earn' a part on this team. it doesn't work that way. also he didn't 'make' jose a man without a position. jose doesn't HAVE a position.

idseer
09-30-2001, 02:03 PM
Originally posted by LongDistanceFan
that is the point i been trying to make. Jose was consistent the WHOLE season, whereas clayton just reek and caused problems. Jose never complain nor was he a distraction, he was just a soldier and accepted what was given.

it's funny no one sees the obvious here. what is the difference between a guy who hits 20 homeruns in the first half, none in the second .... and a guy who hits 10 in the first half and 10 in the second? give up? it's NONE!
you all try to make it sound as if his more recent contribution means nothing!
give me a break!

PaleHoseGeorge
09-30-2001, 04:37 PM
Originally posted by idseer
and milk didn't 'earn' a part on this team. it doesn't work that way. also he didn't 'make' jose a man without a position. jose doesn't HAVE a position.


This I don't understand. How did Perry not "earn" a part on this team? As near as I can tell, Manuel shelved him after a 2000 season where he hit .308, a .483 slugging percentage, and a .356 OBP. He managed 21 more total bases than Clayton in spite of 29 fewer at-bats.

Herbert Perry should not have been sitting on the bench this season. The only reason he did was because of Clayton's $4 million salary.

Please stop pretending you don't think Clayton shouldn't be playing; you're not fooling anyone. It's obvious this "horse" is far from dead in your mind. Everyone else has shipped it to the glue factory--including KW and Manuel.

czalgosz
09-30-2001, 05:05 PM
this is indeed a dead horse... The sox will make an effort to move Clayton during the offseason, and his second half will make it so that there will be buyers. He'll be much more valuable if traded for a real prospect or a catcher.

LongDistanceFan
09-30-2001, 05:06 PM
Originally posted by idseer


it's funny no one sees the obvious here. what is the difference between a guy who hits 20 homeruns in the first half, none in the second .... and a guy who hits 10 in the first half and 10 in the second? give up? it's NONE!
you all try to make it sound as if his more recent contribution means nothing!
give me a break! don't put words on my mouth. I have given him, royce his due, for his turn around. I just kept asking why couldn't have done this the whole season look at all my post about this guy......... you are good in taking half truth and making it the whole excuse. now tell me why couldn't he have done this the whole season?

So by your half and half, we should've never played him or paid him for the first half and play and pay him for only the second right?

LongDistanceFan
09-30-2001, 05:14 PM
Originally posted by czalgosz
this is indeed a dead horse... The sox will make an effort to move Clayton during the offseason, and his second half will make it so that there will be buyers. He'll be much more valuable if traded for a real prospect or a catcher. how bout the fact that b/c of his perceived rep, no-one wanted him at the trading deadline. If he was soooo valuable, why would KW try to move him or as rumors has it, will get rid of him in this offseason.

PaleHoseGeorge
09-30-2001, 05:21 PM
Originally posted by LongDistanceFan
how bout the fact that b/c of his perceived rep, no-one wanted him at the trading deadline. If he was soooo valuable, why would KW try to move him or as rumors has it, will get rid of him in this offseason.


Nobody wants to blow $4 million on Clayton. We were in a similar situation trying to move Navarro. It was a miracle the Brewers took him without a salary subsidy from the Sox.

idseer
09-30-2001, 05:23 PM
Originally posted by LongDistanceFan
don't put words on my mouth. I have given him, royce his due, for his turn around. I just kept asking why couldn't have done this the whole season look at all my post about this guy......... you are good in taking half truth and making it the whole excuse. now tell me why couldn't he have done this the whole season?

So by your half and half, we should've never played him or paid him for the first half and play and pay him for only the second right?

i can't tell you why he was so bad the first half and i don't make excuses for it. i'm just saying let's give the guy credit for his amazing comeback!

idseer
09-30-2001, 05:24 PM
Originally posted by LongDistanceFan
how bout the fact that b/c of his perceived rep, no-one wanted him at the trading deadline. If he was soooo valuable, why would KW try to move him or as rumors has it, will get rid of him in this offseason.

well, KW rumors don't mean much. let's see what actually happens.

LongDistanceFan
09-30-2001, 05:29 PM
Originally posted by idseer


i can't tell you why he was so bad the first half and i don't make excuses for it. i'm just saying let's give the guy credit for his amazing comeback! i have and think a majority has as well. we or i am just pissed that he couldn't have done this the whole season. in addition, why was he acting like a jerk.

LongDistanceFan
09-30-2001, 05:30 PM
Originally posted by idseer


well, KW rumors don't mean much. let's see what actually happens. ok..... lets remember this, when clayton is gone. ok

idseer
09-30-2001, 05:31 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge



This I don't understand. How did Perry not "earn" a part on this team? As near as I can tell, Manuel shelved him after a 2000 season where he hit .308, a .483 slugging percentage, and a .356 OBP. He managed 21 more total bases than Clayton in spite of 29 fewer at-bats.

Herbert Perry should not have been sitting on the bench this season. The only reason he did was because of Clayton's $4 million salary.

Please stop pretending you don't think Clayton shouldn't be playing; you're not fooling anyone. It's obvious this "horse" is far from dead in your mind. Everyone else has shipped it to the glue factory--including KW and Manuel.

what i meant was, baseball isn't like school where you earn credits. what you did last year doesn't guarantee you a spot this year. personally i agree with you. i felt he should have been playing. you tell ME why he didn't!

i'm not pretending anything about clayton. i feel he should be playing. i don't think he's a great ss, but i do feel he's better there than jose is. again, you tell ME why he's playing. on one hand manuel keeps saying he wants to win, and he's putting his best out there to play (the reason for crede spending so much time on the bench). on the other you expect me to believe he's only playing royce to 'up his trade value'? which is it?

LongDistanceFan
09-30-2001, 05:37 PM
Originally posted by idseer

on the other you expect me to believe he's only playing royce to 'up his trade value'? which is it? i think its both, you play the hot hand and in this case hope that someone may think taking a chance on him may be worth it.

oldcomiskey
09-30-2001, 05:42 PM
Originally posted by idseer


after giving much thought to how he stunk up the first half ... did you ever give him his due for being a big part of the sox ability to finally surge past .500 and claiming 2nd place? i don't think you can make a claim that jose helped at all during the 2nd half, can you?
and milk didn't 'earn' a part on this team. it doesn't work that way. also he didn't 'make' jose a man without a position. jose doesn't HAVE a position.
Is that right now---Valentin HAD a position until Clayton and how in the hell do you figure that Milk didnt earn his job last year--hell, last years playoff on one leg shouldve given him the job going away.. I do not like Clayton or anything he stands for--He has turned this franchise into a laughingstock again and Im pissed about it.. He should not only be gone--he should be tarred and feathered.. I cant think of one more reason to hate him--but Im sure Ill come up with something--His Me first attitude does not set well with me... Meanwhile Manos learned 2 new positions--as far as Im concerned Clayton is one of the mian reasons we didnt win the division in 2001. And besides Mmmmanos has been hurt most of the year but you never hear him complain--Give Me Manos anyday

idseer
09-30-2001, 06:18 PM
Originally posted by oldcomiskey

Is that right now---Valentin HAD a position until Clayton and how in the hell do you figure that Milk didnt earn his job last year--hell, last years playoff on one leg shouldve given him the job going away.. I do not like Clayton or anything he stands for--He has turned this franchise into a laughingstock again and Im pissed about it.. He should not only be gone--he should be tarred and feathered.. I cant think of one more reason to hate him--but Im sure Ill come up with something--His Me first attitude does not set well with me... Meanwhile Manos learned 2 new positions--as far as Im concerned Clayton is one of the mian reasons we didnt win the division in 2001. And besides Mmmmanos has been hurt most of the year but you never hear him complain--Give Me Manos anyday

don't blame clayton cause the sox made the decision to remove jose. and clayton has turned the sox into a laughingstock? good grief man! and clayton is no more a 'me first' guy than the next. you're just pissed cause your hero isn't at short.
and what is 'mmmanos has been hurt but you never hear him complain' all about? what's he got to complain about? the fact is he's having an above avg. year for him. more hr's, well above his lifetime bat. avg. so what are you so upset about?
fact is, i don't hear anyone on the team complain. do you?

FarWestChicago
09-30-2001, 06:24 PM
and clayton is no more a 'me first' guy than the next http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3549

PaleHoseGeorge
09-30-2001, 06:32 PM
Originally posted by idseer
what i meant was, baseball isn't like school where you earn credits. what you did last year doesn't guarantee you a spot this year. personally i agree with you. i felt he should have been playing. you tell ME why he didn't!

I already answered this question directly to you. Perry didn't play because he doesn't have a $4 million salary but Clayton does.


i'm not pretending anything about clayton. i feel he should be playing. i don't think he's a great ss, but i do feel he's better there than jose is.

Good for you to be honest with the rest of us. Why you would label this thread "Dead Horse" would suggest otherwise.


again, you tell ME why he's playing. on one hand manuel keeps saying he wants to win, and he's putting his best out there to play (the reason for crede spending so much time on the bench). on the other you expect me to believe he's only playing royce to 'up his trade value'? which is it?


Amongst all the terrible offense on the Sox the critical first eight weeks of the season, only two guys had batting averages beneath .100. One of them was making the major league minimum, got shipped to AAA last spring, and hasn't been heard from since. The other is making $4 million and by all accounts is being shopped.

Here's hoping we can fool somebody to take Clayton's full salary like we got Milwaukee to take Navarro's. It will be a tragedy if the Sox are paying part of Clayton's salary to his new team, but that is probably where this is heading.

LongDistanceFan
09-30-2001, 06:41 PM
Originally posted by idseer


and clayton is no more a 'me first' guy than the next. you're just pissed cause your hero isn't at short.
but who is in charge, the player or the coaches, when your boss tells you to do something, you do it, no insubordination. When a coach was telling clayton to do something he was acting like a little kid......... would you allow this to happen with your kids and he is an adult?

come - on i was for clayton in the beginning and fought these guys last yr about clayton, but i have change my opinion b/c of 1. his first half stats, and 2. b/c of his antics.

idseer
09-30-2001, 07:10 PM
Originally posted by FarWestChicago
http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3549

to be honest FWC, i saw you post this before, but i've never seen any confirmation, never read about it, never heard anyone else talk about it, so you'll excuse me if i'm skeptical of some guy posting this on a bb.

idseer
09-30-2001, 07:19 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge


I already answered this question directly to you. Perry didn't play because he doesn't have a $4 million salary but Clayton does.

this is most likely true. i would not have kept clayton in the lineup myself. but the fact that he WAS kept there brings us to where we are ... and he's playing well.

Good for you to be honest with the rest of us. Why you would label this thread "Dead Horse" would suggest otherwise.[/QUOTE]

i'm always honest with y'all. i labeled it that because it's about royce. but i did explain up front that this wasn't actually about royce's fielding. (and i thought that was the dead horse)

Amongst all the terrible offense on the Sox the critical first eight weeks of the season, only two guys had batting averages beneath .100. One of them was making the major league minimum, got shipped to AAA last spring, and hasn't been heard from since. The other is making $4 million and by all accounts is being shopped.[/QUOTE]

i've read that too, but i've also read suggestions magglio was available. i just don't put too much stock in these rumors. i don't think kw knows WHAT he's going to do yet.

Here's hoping we can fool somebody to take Clayton's full salary like we got Milwaukee to take Navarro's. It will be a tragedy if the Sox are paying part of Clayton's salary to his new team, but that is probably where this is heading. [/QUOTE]

i hope you're right ... if for no other reason than we won't have royce to kick around anymore! but! i also hope what we get at short next year is an improvement. (but don't be too shocked if he's our opening day ss)

idseer
09-30-2001, 07:22 PM
Originally posted by LongDistanceFan
but who is in charge, the player or the coaches, when your boss tells you to do something, you do it, no insubordination. When a coach was telling clayton to do something he was acting like a little kid......... would you allow this to happen with your kids and he is an adult?

come - on i was for clayton in the beginning and fought these guys last yr about clayton, but i have change my opinion b/c of 1. his first half stats, and 2. b/c of his antics.

most players act like little kids. after all thats what they mostly are. pampered since early highschool. some grow up sooner than others, some ... never!

i hated the 1st half stats too, but, you have to admit ... those stats were an abberation, not his norm. the fact he's brought them all the way back actually is perhaps that much more admirable.

CLR01
09-30-2001, 07:28 PM
Originally posted by idseer

i hated the 1st half stats too, but, you have to admit ... those stats were an abberation, not his norm. the fact he's brought them all the way back actually is perhaps that much more admirable.


True but his second half stats are also an abberation(Not season stats during the second half). he is not a 300+ hitter.

Daver
09-30-2001, 07:36 PM
I think I can solve this argument quite easily.


Hey Royce wanna go hunting?

LongDistanceFan
09-30-2001, 07:50 PM
Originally posted by CLR01



True but his second half stats are also an abberation(Not season stats during the second half). he is not a 300+ hitter. very good rebuttal....... damn i wish i had thought of that.

LongDistanceFan
09-30-2001, 07:51 PM
Originally posted by daver
I think I can solve this argument quite easily.


Hey Royce wanna go hunting? LMAO

LongDistanceFan
09-30-2001, 07:56 PM
Originally posted by idseer



i hated the 1st half stats too, but, you have to admit ... those stats were an abberation, not his norm. the fact he's brought them all the way back actually is perhaps that much more admirable. so when he starts next yr, with half can we expect?

idseer
09-30-2001, 08:10 PM
Originally posted by LongDistanceFan
so when he starts next yr, with half can we expect?

see? i already have you thinking he's coming back! lol

truthfully clr is absolutely correct. it's been a strange year for him. i can only assume he'll be more cosistant next year and assume his more normal career stats. who knows?

PaleHoseGeorge
09-30-2001, 08:15 PM
Originally posted by idseer
this is most likely true. i would not have kept clayton in the lineup myself. but the fact that he WAS kept there brings us to where we are ... and he's playing well.

I'm not an owner so I guess I can't honestly say I blame Reinsdorf or his hired minions for not wanting $4 million of my money sitting on the bench. However, as a fan, I believe the action is inexcusable--perhaps even reprehensible, given this franchise hasn't won in 84 years. I would like to experience winning a Sox championship in my lifetime. Waiting for Royce Clayton to play better is no way to achieve that goal.


i've read that too, but i've also read suggestions magglio was available. i just don't put too much stock in these rumors. i don't think kw knows WHAT he's going to do yet.

Those rumors were out there BEFORE the Sox signed Magglio to a contract extension. That's SOP for our Sox. The rumors regarding Clayton are totally different. If he's still here next March it's because the Sox couldn't get anyone to eat enough of his salary. That's how we got stuck with Navarro two extra years.


i hope you're right ... if for no other reason than we won't have royce to kick around anymore!

No kicks he didn't deserve.

but! i also hope what we get at short next year is an improvement. (but don't be too shocked if he's our opening day ss)

A shortstop capable of hitting higher than #8 ought to be easy to accomplish. But I won't be shocked if Royce is still here come spring. We held on to Navarro's $5million salary for two extra years; Why not Royce's $4 million for one.

In other words, the Sox will screw this up by keeping Clayton. They've done it before and they'll do it again.

RichieRichAllen
09-30-2001, 08:19 PM
Does it really have to be Valentin OR Clayton next year?

Isn't there somebody out there that might be expendable/available next year (for the right price)?

Actually, I give Clayton credit for his defense this year (I'm not sure about the range stuff...granted he's no Appling or Aparicio). But, at least he gives us credible defense up the middle. The first half, second half stuff doesn't bother me so much. If he were consistently a .265 hitter all year, would that make him a better player. Maybe....maybe not. He sure seems to have been a spark both offensively (the second half) and arguably defensively all year. He had a hand(s) in an awful lot of wins during the second half.

It's the attitude that I think bothers everybody most. And I agree. LaRussa didn't like him, Curtis made the "cancer" comments about him.....and we saw some of the ****e he spewed early on this year. I do thank God he had the second half he did, plus put up the good defensive numbers. There might be some big market teams that could both pay him and figure he could fill a gap with them. I really think we should package him (even if we have to eat a portion of his salary) to fill some of our other needs.

As for Valentin.....love the guy.....but where to put him? We have got to improve the defense next year and placing Jose anywhere but DH is a liability. His loss in the clubhouse and on the field would be a blow. Could he be the full time DH (I know, I know.....Frank will be back....but if the Sox start slow and Frank starts fast.....)? Only if he improved his offensive numbers, which he might if he knew what his job actually would be day-to-day. You hate to get rid of team leaders, unless of course, you can swap 'em for other team leaders.

So, maybe neither Valentin or Clayton fill the bill for our SS needs for '02. Anybody know of anyone who might be available?

LongDistanceFan
09-30-2001, 08:29 PM
Originally posted by idseer


see? i already have you thinking he's coming back! lol
i don't think he is coming back, i just wanted to continue this debate........... realistically he as good as gone and good riddance.

LongDistanceFan
09-30-2001, 08:36 PM
Originally posted by RichieRichAllen
who is in a dire need for a SS, beside us? I think the believe is that Jose is valuable off and on the field to afford his errors in the field.

in addition, maybe he can add the spark to ray durham play and again that can be a positive.

Dadawg_77
09-30-2001, 08:37 PM
This thread should of been titled "Horse with a broken leg" because what do you do with horse with a broken leg, you make them a dead horse.

Look Clayton is wanted by anyone, I think A rod was worth $25 year just because it gets rid of Clayton. The Braves could of had Clayton but decided to get Ray Sanchez, Ray F'n Sanchez over Royce. That should show how much major league baseball thinks of this bum. Royce has caused problems in every clubhouse he has been in durring his career. He has never lived up to his promise, the next "Ozzie Smith", his career has been a huge let down. You I maybe one fan, but I'm writting a letter to the Sox stating I won't re-up my tickets if he is still on the team.

LongDistanceFan
09-30-2001, 08:42 PM
Originally posted by RichieRichAllen


So, maybe neither Valentin or Clayton fill the bill for our SS needs for '02. Anybody know of anyone who might be available? i am a little confuse with this part, are you asking is there a ss available? the answer is yes and at what cost. NY mets rey ordenez(sp) which i have always like and who cares about his lack of hitting....... he brings more to the table.

Rey sanchez ufa............ and the one i like is tor young ss. they have 2 up now and another one climbing in the minors........ but will tor trade with us............ i don't think so.

oldcomiskey
09-30-2001, 09:48 PM
well now that sort of clinches it dont it---you may say you aint seen Royce do any of this but I have read things about him--albeit in the press whom I do not trust.... But we were a better team as far as doing the little things with Jose than with Royce..like turning the DP--no amount of the sugar that you coat Clayton with will change my mind--I liked him about as much as I did Greg Norton----but didnt hate him enough to put him in Navarro or Belle range yet

RichieRichAllen
10-01-2001, 01:59 AM
Originally posted by LongDistanceFan
i am a little confuse with this part, are you asking is there a ss available? the answer is yes and at what cost. NY mets rey ordenez(sp) which i have always like and who cares about his lack of hitting....... he brings more to the table.

Rey sanchez ufa............ and the one i like is tor young ss. they have 2 up now and another one climbing in the minors........ but will tor trade with us............ i don't think so.

Hey, are you Brazilian, LDF? I noticed the "ufa" and I know it's Brazilian Portuguese slang for "Wow!"

Anyway.......Sorry to confuse. I'm looking for teams like you mentioned that have young up 'n comers who wouldn't mind making their everyday shortstop available next year. Any free agents out there worth exploring? (Sorry, Jerry.....I'll need to refer to your list).

FarWestChicago
10-01-2001, 02:06 AM
Originally posted by RichieRichAllen


Hey, are you Brazilian, LDF? I noticed the "ufa" and I know it's Brazilian Portuguese slang for "Wow!"
I think he meant Unrestricted Free Agent. LDF likes abbreviations.

LongDistanceFan
10-01-2001, 02:28 AM
Originally posted by FarWestChicago
I think he meant Unrestricted Free Agent. LDF likes abbreviations. ufa or fa isn't it a common acronym for it, or so i thought it was.......... i like to take shortcuts in writing, B/C i am such a lousy typist.

update, tor has all 3 of there ss playing now, one at ss,2b and 3b. with filipe lopez the most intriguing of them. I just went to the tor webpage at espn.

i wonder if tor will trade w/ us............ ummm