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The Tom
07-29-2004, 10:20 PM
This might be posted somewhere else, but Gio Gonzales made his debut at Kanapolis tonight. He went 3 innings, giving up 3 runs (2 earned). He pitched the a scoreless three innings, but failed to get an out in the fourth. He had definite control problems, but he is a 18 year old making his first start in A ball. Bad performance, but I think criticism would be premature. Also, Whisler homered for the first time tonight, and raised his average to .318. He is now hitting over .300 AND has an ERA in the mid-twos. Where are all the guys saying how terrible this guy was? Eating some crow perhaps?

Wealz
07-29-2004, 10:54 PM
This might be posted somewhere else, but Gio Gonzales made his debut at Kanapolis tonight. He went 3 innings, giving up 3 runs (2 earned). He pitched the a scoreless three innings, but failed to get an out in the fourth. He had definite control problems, but he is a 18 year old making his first start in A ball. Bad performance, but I think criticism would be premature. Also, Whisler homered for the first time tonight, and raised his average to .318. He is now hitting over .300 AND has an ERA in the mid-twos. Where are all the guys saying how terrible this guy was? Eating some crow perhaps?
Take credit for Whisler if you want (I wouldn't, it's real early), but it opens up the door to criticizing the Don Lucy (Suzuki anyone?) and the great Ray Liotta selections.

The Tom
07-29-2004, 11:12 PM
Take credit for Whisler if you want (I wouldn't, it's real early), but it opens up the door to criticizing the Don Lucy (Suzuki anyone?) and the great Ray Liotta selections.

I'm not taking credit for anything. I just seem to remember about three pages of whining about how bad Whisler was going to be. I thought it was a bit premature then and I think that Whisler's performance at the very least proves that he has the TALENT to warrant his selection.

Randar68
07-29-2004, 11:19 PM
I'm not taking credit for anything. I just seem to remember about three pages of whining about how bad Whisler was going to be. I thought it was a bit premature then and I think that Whisler's performance at the very least proves that he has the TALENT to warrant his selection.Yep, notice the back-pedal. Quite the silliness. Now he's turning to a catcher who only really played 1 year at Stanford and after a slow start has been hitting better the past 2 weeks in Great Falls, let alone that offense is generally a secondary concern of catchers when they have to learn a whole new staff and coaches... I'm not so sure about Liotta, but it's certainly premature for Wealz to be pissing himself about the next player on the list instead of being a man about eating crow on his Whisler comments after being excellent on the mound and having 2 doubles and a HR in a 36-hour span.

Wealz
07-29-2004, 11:45 PM
Yep, notice the back-pedal. Quite the silliness. Now he's turning to a catcher who only really played 1 year at Stanford and after a slow start has been hitting better the past 2 weeks in Great Falls, let alone that offense is generally a secondary concern of catchers when they have to learn a whole new staff and coaches... I'm not so sure about Liotta, but it's certainly premature for Wealz to be pissing himself about the next player on the list instead of being a man about eating crow on his Whisler comments after being excellent on the mound and having 2 doubles and a HR in a 36-hour span.
We could use a lefty in the pen, why not bring up the Great Wes Whisler? How is it premature to be skeptical about Lucy, but not premature to crow about Whisler?

Wealz
07-29-2004, 11:47 PM
I'm not taking credit for anything. I just seem to remember about three pages of whining about how bad Whisler was going to be. I thought it was a bit premature then and I think that Whisler's performance at the very least proves that he has the TALENT to warrant his selection.
Whisler is a project there were better prospects available with that pick.

ClaudelSleptHere
07-30-2004, 12:07 AM
And as far as bashing Ray Liotta, sure he's made a couple of bombs lately, but his performance in Goodfellas alone should earn him a little of our patience.

jeremyb1
07-30-2004, 12:22 AM
It's exciting to see Gio up at Kannapolis. He seems like one of our more exciting picks so far although the usual caveats about high school pitchers obviously apply. I'm also impressed with Whisler. I do have to agree with Wealz though on the point that it's really early to read all that much into these guys' performances.

The Tom
07-30-2004, 12:39 AM
We could use a lefty in the pen, why not bring up the Great Wes Whisler? How is it premature to be skeptical about Lucy, but not premature to crow about Whisler?

Is this guy mentally defficient? I seriously wonder about it sometimes. What is there to crow about Whisler. HE HAS A .318 BA AND A MID 2 ERA. NOTE TO WEALZ: THOSE ARE GOOD NUMBERS!!! The only crow that should be mentioned about Whisler is the crow Wealz should be eating. Apparentally he has comprehension problems as well, cuz I never once stated that this guy was gonna be a future star. I WAS pointing out that two of our new draft picks are putting up nice numbers, and that Wealz labeled one of them (Whisler) a flop after about what, the first two weeks of his season. Wealz, learn to admit when youre wrong, less people will hate you. And by the way somebody saying that Whisler is putting up good numbers is NOT the same thing as saying that Whisler is the next Prior. Sorry about that.

Fungo
07-30-2004, 09:06 AM
It's exciting to see Gio up at Kannapolis. He seems like one of our more exciting picks so far although the usual caveats about high school pitchers obviously apply. I'm also impressed with Whisler. I do have to agree with Wealz though on the point that it's really early to read all that much into these guys' performances.So it's too early to congratulate, but not too early too criticize? :dunno:

Wealz
07-30-2004, 11:06 AM
Is this guy mentally defficient? I seriously wonder about it sometimes. What is there to crow about Whisler. HE HAS A .318 BA AND A MID 2 ERA. NOTE TO WEALZ: THOSE ARE GOOD NUMBERS!!! The only crow that should be mentioned about Whisler is the crow Wealz should be eating. Apparentally he has comprehension problems as well, cuz I never once stated that this guy was gonna be a future star. I WAS pointing out that two of our new draft picks are putting up nice numbers, and that Wealz labeled one of them (Whisler) a flop after about what, the first two weeks of his season. Wealz, learn to admit when youre wrong, less people will hate you. And by the way somebody saying that Whisler is putting up good numbers is NOT the same thing as saying that Whisler is the next Prior. Sorry about that.
Whisler was a reach where they drafted him. A good month doesn't change that, but hey I'll eat crow ... whatever.

People can be excited about the Sox 2004 draft if they want. I look at it as a missed opportunity. They passed on terrific prospects (Ferris, Syzmanski, and Suzuki) for the likes of Lumsden, Gonzalez, Whisler and Lucy. I'd trade the four we got for the three we passed in a second.

As far as your "less people hating" me comment goes, that was just weird.

Randar68
07-30-2004, 12:22 PM
We could use a lefty in the pen, why not bring up the Great Wes Whisler? How is it premature to be skeptical about Lucy, but not premature to crow about Whisler?LOL! Your basis for complaint with Whisler was his lack of ability, after being "terrible" at UCLA. Yet, he comes in and has been fantastic at Class A right out of college, despite being terrible.

For a terrible college player to be so successful in low class A, he must be a top prospect considering all the hand-wringing people like Wealz and others had over my comments about a slight step up for top college players going to high-A ball.

So, when Whisler succeeds, you find it your duty to move on to Lucy and criticize a catcher who only played 1 year at Stanford? Seriously, you're an absolute joke. Don't make me go back and collect all your fascinating quotes about Whisler here before you start crapping on other just-drafted players. You've shown yourself to be absolutely clueless, so I guess I shouldn't expect that to suddenly change.

Wealz
07-30-2004, 12:35 PM
LOL! Your basis for complaint with Whisler was his lack of ability, after being "terrible" at UCLA. Yet, he comes in and has been fantastic at Class A right out of college, despite being terrible.

For a terrible college player to be so successful in low class A, he must be a top prospect considering all the hand-wringing people like Wealz and others had over my comments about a slight step up for top college players going to high-A ball.

So, when Whisler succeeds, you find it your duty to move on to Lucy and criticize a catcher who only played 1 year at Stanford? Seriously, you're an absolute joke. Don't make me go back and collect all your fascinating quotes about Whisler here before you start crapping on other just-drafted players. You've shown yourself to be absolutely clueless, so I guess I shouldn't expect that to suddenly change.
You're a Duane Shaffer apologist. Go ahead, collect my quotes about Whisler. Anything I've written about him can't top what you have ... for silliness. Prior-like mechanics ring a bell? :gulp:

Randar68
07-30-2004, 12:37 PM
Prior-like mechanics ring a bell? :gulp:
Again, nowhere did I say he had Prior's ability or his potential, but keep twisting that trying to imply I did. You're just burying your credibility further if that's all you have to hang your hat on.

Randar68
07-30-2004, 12:39 PM
You're a Duane Shaffer apologist.
You haven't had a single good thing to say about anyone but Doug Laumann, who got himself canned because he disobeyed his superiors. Are you his wife? Brother?

Seriously, get over it. By your definition:

apologist = anyone who doesn't think the farm system is destroyed because of Duane Shaffer's 2004 draft.

What a joke.

Wealz
07-30-2004, 12:46 PM
Again, nowhere did I say he had Prior's ability or his potential, but keep twisting that trying to imply I did. You're just burying your credibility further if that's all you have to hang your hat on.
My credibility? You're proclaiming the Whisler selection a good one based on one month. Applying that same standard to Lucy, Lumsden, and Liotta wouldn't they be failures?

Wealz
07-30-2004, 12:50 PM
You haven't had a single good thing to say about anyone but Doug Laumann, who got himself canned because he disobeyed his superiors. Are you his wife? Brother?
If you're okay with the Sox drafts since the Himes era . . .

Randar68
07-30-2004, 12:55 PM
My credibility? You're proclaiming the Whisler selection a good one based on one month. Applying that same standard to Lucy, Lumsden, and Liotta wouldn't they be failures?
No no no no no. I'm saying you're wrong for being so over-the-top in your early criticism of Whisler. His success just indicates that you were wrong, not that he's some kind of top prospect based on this first month. Again with the twisting of the words.

Wealz
07-30-2004, 01:00 PM
No no no no no. I'm saying you're wrong for being so over-the-top in your early criticism of Whisler. His success just indicates that you were wrong, not that he's some kind of top prospect based on this first month. Again with the twisting of the words.
One good month justifies a second round pick? That can't be.

Randar68
07-30-2004, 01:03 PM
If you're okay with the Sox drafts since the Himes era . . .It's hard to satisfy some people, despite never having top 10 picks in that era. In addition, JR restricted the budgets for years of these drafts, including over-riding his scouts on guys like Dallaero and Mark Johnson and a long list of others. These drafts you speak of included players like Mark Buehrle in the 39th round, Mike Sirotka, Aaron Rowand, Kip Wells, Mike Cameron, Crede, and a long list of players that were turned into contributing major league players.

Not bad for a terrible organization not having a top 10 draft pick in 15 years...

Himes did a great job, but if you're going to measure success against Hernandez/Ventura/Thomas/Fernandez/Bere/etc, you're going to have a hard time finding any GM's who are any good.

Randar68
07-30-2004, 01:04 PM
One good month justifies a second round pick? That can't be.
One bad week justifies crucifying the organization for not picking some arm-chair GM's favorite player? Now that is silly. Carry on, though, this is pretty funny.

Wealz
07-30-2004, 01:17 PM
It's hard to satisfy some people, despite never having top 10 picks in that era. In addition, JR restricted the budgets for years of these drafts, including over-riding his scouts on guys like Dallaero and Mark Johnson and a long list of others. These drafts you speak of included players like Mark Buehrle in the 39th round, Mike Sirotka, Aaron Rowand, Kip Wells, Mike Cameron, Crede, and a long list of players that were turned into contributing major league players.

Not bad for a terrible organization not having a top 10 draft pick in 15 years...

Himes did a great job, but if you're going to measure success against Hernandez/Ventura/Thomas/Fernandez/Bere/etc, you're going to have a hard time finding any GM's who are any good.
As I said, you're happy with them, I'm not. Oh, and how do you know his scouts were over-ridden in the cases of Dallaero and Johnson? Sounds like a CYA thing by those scouts.

Randar68
07-30-2004, 01:29 PM
As I said, you're happy with them, I'm not. Oh, and how do you know his scouts were over-ridden in the cases of Dallaero and Johnson? Sounds like a CYA thing by those scouts.
Ask Phil Rogers, he'll tell you the same thing. Then again, maybe I'm talking out of my ass, like about how Ron drafted his daughter earlier in the draft than Mark Buehrle was taken in a later draft... Damn that Shaffer...

Wealz
07-30-2004, 01:32 PM
Ask Phil Rogers, he'll tell you the same thing. Then again, maybe I'm talking out of my ass, like about how Ron drafted his daughter earlier in the draft than Mark Buehrle was taken in a later draft... Damn that Shaffer...
I just aked how you knew ... that's all.

jeremyb1
07-30-2004, 02:39 PM
So it's too early to congratulate, but not too early too criticize? :dunno:

It's too early for both. That's what I understood Wealz to argue in his post.

maurice
07-30-2004, 03:02 PM
Incidentally, Liotta started for Great Falls yesterday and threw 5 1/3 shutout innings with 5 Ks.

Lucy was 2-for-4 with a 2B, a run scored, and 2 RBI. He batted .400 over the past week.

Wealz
07-30-2004, 03:19 PM
It's too early for both. That's what I understood Wealz to argue in his post.
Right Jeremy. I have serious reservations about this draft and a month of good performances isn't going to change that. That said I never posted Lumsden, Lucy, or Liotta's stats in order to say "see!"

In my view, the Sox frittered away the golden opportunity those extra picks afforded them. Time will tell, but like I said I don't like what they did with them.

maurice
07-30-2004, 03:52 PM
In my view, the Sox frittered away the golden opportunity those extra picks afforded them. Time will tell, but like I said I don't like what they did with them.
We're well aware of that fact. It's fine to mention it in one or two threads, but it's extremely tiresome to read it 100 times. You're correct that time will tell. Beating the crap out of a dead horse will not speed the process along.

Wealz
07-30-2004, 04:00 PM
We're well aware of that fact. It's fine to mention it in one or two threads, but it's extremely tiresome to read it 100 times. You're correct that time will tell. Beating the crap out of a dead horse will not speed the process along.
You have a choice not to read it. To the point, the question was posed in a taunting manner I thought, as to where the Whisler detractors were. I'm right here.

The Tom
07-30-2004, 07:08 PM
You have a choice not to read it. To the point, the question was posed in a taunting manner I thought, as to where the Whisler detractors were. I'm right here.

Actually he doesnt really have a choice, because your posts are everywhere. NOBODY is saying that Whisler is the next Mark Prior. We ARE saying that criticising a pick because he wasnt the guy you most liked a week into his minor league career is a bit foolish (especially when he is putting up solid stats) and that the guy DELIVERS (and by delivers we dont mean has the same stuff or will have the same success, we mean that the thing he does while throwing the ball looks similar) are you really so narrow-minded that you can't see that you are in the wrong here. I meen seriously, I bitched about the Everett trade non-stop. Now, I'm willing to admit that it was a move that had to be made.

Randar68
07-30-2004, 11:29 PM
Actually he doesnt really have a choice, because your posts are everywhere. NOBODY is saying that Whisler is the next Mark Prior. We ARE saying that criticising a pick because he wasnt the guy you most liked a week into his minor league career is a bit foolish (especially when he is putting up solid stats) and that the guy DELIVERS (and by delivers we dont mean has the same stuff or will have the same success, we mean that the thing he does while throwing the ball looks similar) are you really so narrow-minded that you can't see that you are in the wrong here. I meen seriously, I bitched about the Everett trade non-stop. Now, I'm willing to admit that it was a move that had to be made.
Replace the words "a bit" with "extremely" and we're on the right track.

Chisoxfn
07-31-2004, 03:55 AM
You can't possibly judge a draft based on one month. You can complain about drafts 4 years ago or so, and go ahead and complain about this one, but the fact is the results won't be had for quite a long time.

Also, their are financial considerations to go with draft picks. The Sox had a lot of picks early and that meant they had to pony up some extra money. They also are well noted as saying that some guys they were really high on kept coming to them and they wouldn't pass them up.

And as far as Ray Liotta goes, the guy has legitimate stuff. In my mind he has a shot to be one of the sleepers in the draft (if you consider a guy picked where he is a sleeper).

Wealz
07-31-2004, 01:26 PM
Actually he doesnt really have a choice, because your posts are everywhere. NOBODY is saying that Whisler is the next Mark Prior. We ARE saying that criticising a pick because he wasnt the guy you most liked a week into his minor league career is a bit foolish (especially when he is putting up solid stats) and that the guy DELIVERS (and by delivers we dont mean has the same stuff or will have the same success, we mean that the thing he does while throwing the ball looks similar) are you really so narrow-minded that you can't see that you are in the wrong here. I meen seriously, I bitched about the Everett trade non-stop. Now, I'm willing to admit that it was a move that had to be made.
I guarantee you this, the next time Whisler, Lucy, Lumsden, or Liotta have a bad game or two I will not write a juvenile 'I told you so' post like you or Maurice. In fact, prior to this thread, I haven't written anything about the poor starts of any of this year's picks.

One more thing, from now on I would like to submit my topics in advance to you and Maurice for approval before I post.

Randar68
07-31-2004, 02:34 PM
One more thing, from now on I would like to submit my topics in advance to you and Maurice for approval before I post.
*****! Your topics? Plural? You've only had one topic!

Wealz
07-31-2004, 05:08 PM
*****! Your topics? Plural? You've only had one topic!
You're right.

maurice
08-02-2004, 04:06 PM
I guarantee you this, the next time Whisler, Lucy, Lumsden, or Liotta have a bad game or two I will not write a juvenile 'I told you so' post like you or Maurice.

Now you're hallucinating. The only thing I've posted about any of these players is an update on their recent performance. Tracking (not trashing) Sox prospects is the very point of the "Minor Observations" board.


You have a choice not to read it.You're right, Weasel. At your request, I've designated you:dtroll: #4 on my "ignore list." I don't like to place new posters on "ignore" right off the bat, because they occassionally mature into folks with a variety of intelligent things to say. Others, like you, do nothing but waste bandwith repeating the same, unsupportable claims 20 times per day, because they have no life and no original ideas.

Wealz
08-02-2004, 07:20 PM
Now you're hallucinating. The only thing I've posted about any of these players is an update on their recent performance. Tracking (not trashing) Sox prospects is the very point of the "Minor Observations" board.


You're right, Weasel. At your request, I've designated you:dtroll: #4 on my "ignore list." I don't like to place new posters on "ignore" right off the bat, because they occassionally mature into folks with a variety of intelligent things to say. Others, like you, do nothing but waste bandwith repeating the same, unsupportable claims 20 times per day, because they have no life and no original ideas.
Good for you Maurice.

The Tom
08-03-2004, 04:50 PM
I guarantee you this....I will not write a juvenile 'I told you so' post like you or Maurice.

One more thing, from now on I would like to submit my topics in advance to you and Maurice for approval before I post.
hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.
*****. Oh, sorry, but thanks for the laugh. Please point out how you justify a generic "Let's support our players not criticise them" post is juvenile. Don't get so butt-hurt when someone calls you out.:whiner:

By the way, I'm really excited about you submitting your topics to me for approval, I think it's gonna keep a lot of our influencable members away from questionable content.

Wealz
08-03-2004, 10:37 PM
hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.
*****. Oh, sorry, but thanks for the laugh. Please point out how you justify a generic "Let's support our players not criticise them" post is juvenile. Don't get so butt-hurt when someone calls you out.:whiner:

By the way, I'm really excited about you submitting your topics to me for approval, I think it's gonna keep a lot of our influencable members away from questionable content.
You're right. Dissenting opinion is not tollerated on this forum.

The Tom
08-04-2004, 11:33 AM
You're right. Dissenting opinion is not tollerated on this forum.
No, dissenting opinions are fine, but whining and foolishly arguing because people DON'T AGREE with those dissenting opinions are not. Seriously, you have dissenting opinions, people are going to disagree. Why feel the need to attack other people's opinions on stupid points?
I seem to remember a 3 page thread where you felt it necessary to criticise a description of how Whisler LOOKS when he throws the ball. Don't be a hypocrite, because you did the same thing then as you are accusing me and maurice of doing now.

maurice
08-04-2004, 04:01 PM
Liotta started for Great Falls yesterday and threw 5 1/3 shutout innings with 5 Ks.
Liotta is on a roll for Great Falls. He just posted 5 more shutout innings with 4 more Ks.

Wealz
08-04-2004, 04:35 PM
No, dissenting opinions are fine, but whining and foolishly arguing because people DON'T AGREE with those dissenting opinions are not. Seriously, you have dissenting opinions, people are going to disagree. Why feel the need to attack other people's opinions on stupid points?
I seem to remember a 3 page thread where you felt it necessary to criticise a description of how Whisler LOOKS when he throws the ball. Don't be a hypocrite, because you did the same thing then as you are accusing me and maurice of doing now.
You're right.

Rex Hudler
08-05-2004, 01:05 AM
Getting back to Gio in Kanny...........


Gio had a tough first inning tonight, giving up four runs. He then settled down and tossed four scoreless frames to finish off his outing. His line.....

Kannapolis IP H R ER BB SO HR ERA
Gonzalez, Gio (L 0-1) 5 5 4 4 3 3 0 6.75
Hernandez, Fernando 2 1-3 1 1 1 0 4 1 2.20
Wasserman, Ehren 2-3 0 0 0 1 1 0 1.79

Nice relief, but Kanny loses 5-3. Valido, Young and Whisler all with two hits.