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View Full Version : It's not just that we're missing Maggs and Frank


DumpJerry
07-29-2004, 02:01 PM
Friends, our current woes (which must be turned around ASAP before the season is a fatality) cannot be blamed solely on the absence of Maggs and Frank. True, we would be better off with them (what team wouldn't?), but there is something bigger missing.....heart. Right now we don't have the team we had in April and May that wanted to win, had to win and made sure they won. Right now we have sleepwalkers collecting paychecks.

While it would be nice to get The Next Big Thing in a trade this weekend, I think what is really needed is to get the hunger in the bellies and fire in the hearts of our team. We have the talent, it just needs some strong coffee.

Remember, Al Harris and Todd Bell sat out the 1985 Bears' season because they did not like the contract offers from the team. Everyone thought the Bears would be a total bust without these two big stars..........Maybe they were right, we did lose a game to the Dolphins that year.:wink: I do, however, recall beating the Patriots in the last game of the season......

Wealz
07-29-2004, 02:26 PM
Friends, our current woes (which must be turned around ASAP before the season is a fatality) cannot be blamed solely on the absence of Maggs and Frank. True, we would be better off with them (what team wouldn't?), but there is something bigger missing.....heart. Right now we don't have the team we had in April and May that wanted to win, had to win and made sure they won. Right now we have sleepwalkers collecting paychecks.

While it would be nice to get The Next Big Thing in a trade this weekend, I think what is really needed is to get the hunger in the bellies and fire in the hearts of our team. We have the talent, it just needs some strong coffee.

Remember, Al Harris and Todd Bell sat out the 1985 Bears' season because they did not like the contract offers from the team. Everyone thought the Bears would be a total bust without these two big stars..........Maybe they were right, we did lose a game to the Dolphins that year.:wink: I do, however, recall beating the Patriots in the last game of the season......
I could not disagree more with this assessment. You can have "heart", give me Ordonez and Thomas.

Fungo
07-29-2004, 02:32 PM
While it would be nice to get The Next Big Thing in a trade this weekend,...Brock Lesnar?

3Peater
07-29-2004, 02:35 PM
Sox are missing Ordonez and Thomas specifically for these reasons.

The guys in front of them don't get those cherry pitches when ahead in the count nearly as much. The opposition doesn't have 2 guys behind them that can put the fear into a pitcher like Ordonez/Thomas.

Depth in the lineup has vanished. Get past Everett, and there isn't much left for consistent production.

Carlos Lee needs to quit trying to carry the team alone and hit a homer each time up. He's at his best with line-drive doubles. Even the swing out.

Everett needs a re-grouping already. He doesn't seem to have as much going compared to last year. Again it's likely who is missing from the lineup.

The table-setters need to get going. Harris/Perez/Uribe have to hit for this team to go. That's why I wouldn't be surprised to see one of Baltimore's second basemen in White Sox uniform soon.

CHI_SOX_4_LIFE
07-29-2004, 02:41 PM
it does hurt missing maggs and thomas...a lot. and lee does swing for the fences every time, which is very agrivating. but we still have a pretty good team that definitely can win the division. they do need to be more ecstatic and energized though. they look like a bunch of zombies. when something good happens they need to pump them selves up and get some adrenaline running. if that would happen every day this team would be very difficult to beat.

Aidan
07-29-2004, 02:48 PM
While it would be nice to get The Next Big Thing in a trade this weekend,...Brock Lesnar?HAHA!

3Peater
07-29-2004, 02:52 PM
HAHA!
Going to be tough to do that. He signed a rookie contract to play football for the Vikings.

wdelaney72
07-29-2004, 02:57 PM
Their losing becuase they don't have enough talent in the current lineup and the pitching staff IS NOT STEPPING UP to take up some of the slack.

Frank, even when slumping, gets on base A TON. That with the consistent bat of Maggs changes how pitchers handle the entire lineup.

I wish I had the answers. Obviously, the current players in the lineup are not it.

Aidan
07-29-2004, 03:01 PM
Going to be tough to do that. He signed a rookie contract to play football for the Vikings.Yep, the steroid-freak got a $230,000 dollar contract from the Vikes. They will probably send him to NFL Europe.

JB98
07-29-2004, 03:27 PM
Regardless of who is injured, I don't think it's asking too much to demand that the 25 men on the active roster play sound fundamental baseball. Yesterday had nothing to do with Maggs and Frank and everything to do with mental and physical mistakes. We miss those two guys a great deal, but injuries are not an excuse for idiotic play. I don't think this losing streak is caused by lack of heart. I think it is caused by outright stupidity. Without the big guys in the middle of the order, it's more important than ever that we play smart and play together. Frankly, given this team's track record, it's fair to question whether they are capable of doing so. I'm still behind these guys, but I'm braced for the possibility that they are going to let me down again.

RKMeibalane
07-29-2004, 03:37 PM
I think the team's biggest problem is that when Frank and Maggs are around, the other guys just sit back and wait for them to do something. Now that the offense's saftey cushion has been removed, the Konerko's and Lee's of the world don't know what to do with themselves. They are hitting home runs, but they aren't doing much else.

Right now, nobody on the team knows how to take a walk. I'm not really sure where the blame for this lies. The first place I would look would be Greg Walker, since he is the hitting instructor. I don't know much about Greg. It seemed as though he did a nice job last season, especially with Crede, but this season, the hitters seemed more confused than ever. They go up there looking for the fastball, but other teams are smart enough not to throw the fastball unless the bases are empty. And because none of the hitters understand the strike zone, they start flailing away at pitches instead of waiting for something else that they can hit.

As I said, I don't know much about Walker. What exactly is his teaching philosophy? Does he stress hitting the ball to right field? Does he want players to work on hitting line drives? What does he focus on when he works with the hitters? I'm interested to hear the responses, because I'm beginning to wonder if it might be time for Reinsdorf to patch things up with Walk Hriniak. He's done wonders with Frank. Why not let him work with the rest of the team?

And yes, I do know that he teaches players to hit off their front foot. :smile:

Wealz
07-29-2004, 03:39 PM
Regardless of who is injured, I don't think it's asking too much to demand that the 25 men on the active roster play sound fundamental baseball. Yesterday had nothing to do with Maggs and Frank and everything to do with mental and physical mistakes. We miss those two guys a great deal, but injuries are not an excuse for idiotic play. I don't think this losing streak is caused by lack of heart. I think it is caused by outright stupidity. Without the big guys in the middle of the order, it's more important than ever that we play smart and play together. Frankly, given this team's track record, it's fair to question whether they are capable of doing so. I'm still behind these guys, but I'm braced for the possibility that they are going to let me down again.
Yesterday was a terrible game no doubt. This team was constructed to dismantle their opponents with the home run and the GM was willing to give up a little on the "fundamental" side to do so. They aren't lacking in fundamentals because they don't have heart. It's by design.

RKMeibalane
07-29-2004, 03:42 PM
Yesterday was a terrible game no doubt. This team was constructed to dismantle their opponents with the home run and the GM was willing to give up a little on the "fundamental" side to do so. They aren't lacking in fundamentals because they don't have heart. It's by design.
I have to wonder if the lack of fundamentals is an organization-wide problem. Think about it. It seems as though every player who comes through the Sox system is somehow lacking in general knowledge of how play the game of baseball. Whether it's taking walks, running the bases, or playing the field, the Sox have several players who struggle with at least one of the areas in question. I don't know of any other teams with the same problem, which makes me wonder what takes place in the Sox farm system.

Wealz
07-29-2004, 03:53 PM
I have to wonder if the lack of fundamentals is an organization-wide problem. Think about it. It seems as though every player who comes through the Sox system is somehow lacking in general knowledge of how play the game of baseball. Whether it's taking walks, running the bases, or playing the field, the Sox have several players who struggle with at least one of the areas in question. I don't know of any other teams with the same problem, which makes me wonder what takes place in the Sox farm system.
I think part of it is they value athletic ability maybe moreso than baseball abillity when they scout players.

Lip Man 1
07-29-2004, 04:25 PM
RK:

Two points...

1. I don't know if Walker is the problem. How many hitting coaches have the Sox had since the late 90's when the core group of Thomas, Konerko, Ordonez and Lee have been together?

2. I agree with you on the 'fundamentals.' I have been saying for a long time that the Sox simply have 'dumb players.' (I say that in the baseball sense...) These problems have been around a lot longer then Ozzie Guillen. Remember how many times under Manager Gandhi guys like Ken Singleton couldn't lay down a bunt, or Carlos Lee would get throw out trying to steal 3rd base with the tying run at the plate?

Coaches and managers can only do so much, they can drill players until they are blue in the face but at some point in time the players have to 'accomplish' what they are practicing and you never know what the attitude is from some players about 'fundamentals.' You can say 'I'm trying...' but mentally if you don't feel you should be bunting or going the other way on a pitch and instead should be hitting a 500 foot home run that defeats everything the coaches are trying to do.

Lip

RKMeibalane
07-29-2004, 04:31 PM
RK:

Two points...

1. I don't know if Walker is the problem. How many hitting coaches have the Sox had since the late 90's when the core group of Thomas, Konerko, Ordonez and Lee have been together?
Since 1998...

1. Ron Jackson
2. Von Joshua
3. Gary Ward
4. Greg Walker

I don't know if you can really include Frank in the group of players that have worked with these coaches, because he seems to spend most of his time working with Hriniak whenever he has a problem. As for the other guys, I really don't know what to say. They all have the same problem: no patience, no ability to use the whole field.

Maggs used to hit the ball to right field on a regular basis, but that changed once he reached the conclusion that home runs lead to a larger contract. The other day, I watched part of a game from 2000. Maggs has changed his batting stance since then. He stands farther off the plate, and he has also opened his left side up. I wonder if this has interfered with his ability to hit the outside pitch.

doublem23
07-29-2004, 05:21 PM
I could not disagree more with this assessment. You can have "heart", give me Ordonez and Thomas.Thank you, Wealz. The only heart I care about is the heart of the order.

Jeez, you lose two guys who hit roughly .300 and a combined 75 homers and any team will lose "heart."

mmmmmbeeer
07-29-2004, 05:37 PM
Thank you, Wealz. The only heart I care about is the heart of the order.

Jeez, you lose two guys who hit roughly .300 and a combined 75 homers and any team will lose "heart."
Exactly.

Marlins without Cabrera and Lowell
Cubs without Sosa and Ramirez
Cards without Pujols and Rolen
Red Sox without Manny and Ortiz
Angels without Vlad and Guillen
Dodgers without Beltre and Green
Phillies without Thome and Abreu

you get the idea...none of those teams would be competing with those losses.

soxstarter
08-04-2004, 09:49 PM
I gotta agree with you DJ. These guys must have fundamentals or they wouldn't be there. How hard is it to enjoy this anyway? It is not just a job..........it is a game! Have a heart Sox

DVsoxfan
08-04-2004, 09:58 PM
It sucks to not have our 3 & 4 hitters, but the sox certainly didnt look to eager to get back in tonights affair. How is it that we score 12 last night, and tonight the only person that can get a hit is Aaron. Thank goodnes for him or else anderson wouldve thrown a perfect game. Some people might say to give anderson all the credit because he pitched well. Thats bull, sure he pitched all right, but there were a lot of fastballs right there tonight that we fouled off. We just didnt show up tonight. Uribe did scald the ball to nunez twice, and Aaron played hard, but other than that things were questionable. Schoney certainly didnt help matters. he gave up runs and then took a freaking minute to throw the ball to 2nd on a perfect dp ball, and then didnt allow uribe to turn the dp. Im not a happy camper:whiner: :angry: :whiner:

ode to veeck
08-04-2004, 10:03 PM
Soxstarter, Welcome to WSI!!!

soxnut
08-04-2004, 11:06 PM
RK:

Two points...

1. I don't know if Walker is the problem. How many hitting coaches have the Sox had since the late 90's when the core group of Thomas, Konerko, Ordonez and Lee have been together?

2. I agree with you on the 'fundamentals.' I have been saying for a long time that the Sox simply have 'dumb players.' (I say that in the baseball sense...) These problems have been around a lot longer then Ozzie Guillen. Remember how many times under Manager Gandhi guys like Ken Singleton couldn't lay down a bunt, or Carlos Lee would get throw out trying to steal 3rd base with the tying run at the plate?

Coaches and managers can only do so much, they can drill players until they are blue in the face but at some point in time the players have to 'accomplish' what they are practicing and you never know what the attitude is from some players about 'fundamentals.' You can say 'I'm trying...' but mentally if you don't feel you should be bunting or going the other way on a pitch and instead should be hitting a 500 foot home run that defeats everything the coaches are trying to do.

Lip
I've been saying the same thing about our hitters as well. To me, ever since Jeff Abbot hit that home run to beat the Twins in 2000, this team has fallen in love with hitting home runs. I knew we were doomed then, but I've always been positive anyway. But, it's really difficult to be positive about the so- called "core" of this team now.

I know it makes it harder for the Sox to win without Thomas or Ordonez in the lineup, but this team's approach to hitting has been the same whether or not those two are in the lineup. They've always gone through a stretch where they've scored a ton of runs and then would go through a longer stretch barely being able to get any hits at all. The last two nights have been a perfect example of how this team works. I can't stand it.

For me, I think this year is over and I hate giving up on my team. I'm usually full of hope, but I've got to look at the way this team approaches hitting and the type of hitters they have. If you throw this team a bunch of slow stuff and breaking pitches, they fall all over themselves. In a pressure situation, their fannies get tight, and they end up being very disappointing.

I think the Sox have a decent pitching staff, maybe add on another starter for next year. But it's time for a different approach offensively. If possible keep Magglio and Frank, but it's time for Konerko, Crede, Valentine and Lee to go---these guys are too streaky and are "dumb" hitters. Let's get a few more guys who hit line drives and play good fundamental offensive baseball.:whiner: :whiner: :whiner: :mad: :(:

misty60481
08-04-2004, 11:19 PM
We need a major league manager who will kick ass not like Ozzie who only makes noise on radio or TV I think Fisk would be answer let Ozzie be bench coach and get his apprenticeship before trying to be the top man he is not ready

RKMeibalane
08-04-2004, 11:25 PM
We need a major league manager who will kick ass not like Ozzie who only makes noise on radio or TV I think Fisk would be answer let Ozzie be bench coach and get his apprenticeship before trying to be the top man he is not ready
A few people were hoping that the Sox would try to convince Larry Bowa to leave Philadelphia after last season. However, considering that he has completely lost control of his ballclub (for the second straight year), I don't think there's going to be much interest in him from anyone.

I like Ozzie, but I agree that he needs to change his tactics. Talking isn't enough. At some point, a manager needs to actually do something. Why Guillen hasn't is beyond me.

soxnut
08-04-2004, 11:27 PM
We need a major league manager who will kick ass not like Ozzie who only makes noise on radio or TV I think Fisk would be answer let Ozzie be bench coach and get his apprenticeship before trying to be the top man he is not readyIt's the players who are the problem. They've been playing the same style of baseball since 2000, and it's pathetic. This team needs an enema, not a new manager.

soxnut
08-04-2004, 11:31 PM
I like Ozzie, but I agree that he needs to change his tactics. Talking isn't enough. At some point, a manager needs to actually do something. Why Guillen hasn't is beyond me.
What do you think he needs to do? And how much do we know what he is doing behind the scenes when the cameras and mics aren't on? I think this team is just mentally or fundamentally flawed. The same core has been playing the same dumb way for the last 5 seasons regardless of who the manager is. We have to stop blaming managers for the idiocy of the players.

kitekrazy
08-04-2004, 11:33 PM
I have to wonder if the lack of fundamentals is an organization-wide problem. Think about it. It seems as though every player who comes through the Sox system is somehow lacking in general knowledge of how play the game of baseball. Whether it's taking walks, running the bases, or playing the field, the Sox have several players who struggle with at least one of the areas in question. I don't know of any other teams with the same problem, which makes me wonder what takes place in the Sox farm system.
I agree. I've seen mistakes that I don't see in little league.

RKMeibalane
08-04-2004, 11:36 PM
What do you think he needs to do?
Just once, I'd like to read about him throwing a huge tantrum in the clubhouse. I'd like to see him scream at players for making stupid mistakes. How many times have we seen someone do somthing stupid, only to get off scott-free? It's getting old. These guys are professionals, yet nothing happens when they play like little leaguers.

soxnut
08-05-2004, 09:59 AM
Just once, I'd like to read about him throwing a huge tantrum in the clubhouse. I'd like to see him scream at players for making stupid mistakes. How many times have we seen someone do somthing stupid, only to get off scott-free? It's getting old. These guys are professionals, yet nothing happens when they play like little leaguers.

Yes, these guys are professionals, so how is yelling at them like their children going to accomplish anything? And who says he hasn't yelled at them anyway? Just becuse something isn't in the papers doesn't mean it hasn't been done. It seem that we all have this mentality that if we don't read it in the papers or hear something in an interview or press conference that it doesn't exist.

habibharu
08-05-2004, 04:06 PM
missing frank and maggs is very little of it. if you need more proof see the last two yrs! this team goes into these downward spirals often. and injuries shouldnt be an excuse. Ask the team that once again, with MUCH less talent, will win the division : coskie, hunter,stewart,mauer,rivas,