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fledgedrallycap
07-29-2004, 08:46 AM
By no means am I endorsing a White Flag trade (the season is not over), but rather throwing this out there for a hypothetical discussion.

If we wanted to give up and rebuild for next year, could we? Even if it were best for the long-term success of this franchise? I mean that in terms of perception (not talent), for years all we have heard from our ownership is "fill the stadium, and we will get players for a winner". Well, for the better part of two months the Sox faithful have been showing up to 35th and Shields in expectation of following a playoff-bound team.

Another major black eye would send any good vibes this organizations has been building right down the drain.

bennyw41
07-29-2004, 08:52 AM
By no means am I endorsing a White Flag trade (the season is not over), but rather throwing this out there for a hypothetical discussion.

If we wanted to give up and rebuild for next year, could we? Even if it were best for the long-term success of this franchise? I mean that in terms of perception (not talent), for years all we have heard from our ownership is "fill the stadium, and we will get players for a winner". Well, for the better part of two months the Sox faithful have been showing up to 35th and Shields in expectation of following a playoff-bound team.

Another major black eye would send any good vibes this organizations has been building right down the drain.
Remind me never to take you to battle with me. 3.5 games out in July and you're ready to fold tent? Gosh, what a bunch of quitters we have as fans....

fledgedrallycap
07-29-2004, 08:55 AM
Remind me never to take you to battle with me. 3.5 games out in July and you're ready to fold tent? Gosh, what a bunch of quitters we have as fans....Reading is a skill, my friend. Might want to take it up. I never stated I wanted to quit and it was the first sentence in my post. Rather, could the Sox do it if they felt it should be done.

Jjav829
07-29-2004, 09:26 AM
Reading is a skill, my friend. Might want to take it up. I never said I wanted to quit and it was the first sentence stated. Rather, could the Sox do it if they should do it.
Are you talking about trading away players, or just standing pat with what we have?

As far as the latter goes, it's a very tough decision if you're KW. I know he always talks about wanting to win now, but there comes a time where you have to look at your team and wonder whether one or two more additions will really make you a World Series contender. With Maggs and Frank out for possibly the year, is it worth it to give up a few of your top prospects just to go get a bat that can replace Frank or Maggs? Or would you be better off going with what is already in place and hoping the team can sustain success for the next 6-8 weeks and get Frank and Maggs back for a postseason run? I don't envy KW's position right now.

gosox41
07-29-2004, 10:02 AM
By no means am I endorsing a White Flag trade (the season is not over), but rather throwing this out there for a hypothetical discussion.

If we wanted to give up and rebuild for next year, could we? Even if it were best for the long-term success of this franchise? I mean that in terms of perception (not talent), for years all we have heard from our ownership is "fill the stadium, and we will get players for a winner". Well, for the better part of two months the Sox faithful have been showing up to 35th and Shields in expectation of following a playoff-bound team.

Another major black eye would send any good vibes this organizations has been building right down the drain.
I see what you're saying, and there are times I feel like blowing up this team and starting over. But we can rebuild this offseason. In order to do this the Sox should not make anymore moves this year and stick with what they have.

After 2004 there are a lot of contracts coming due:

Magglio- gone
Schoenweis-gone
Loaiza-gone
Valentin-depends on what he wants

Dumping Magglio, Schoen, and Loaiza is $20.5 mill right htere. We opened the 20094 season in the $62-64 mill range. From that opening subtract those 3 guys and Koch at $6 mill.

It gives the team $26.5 mill to play with in terms of bringing in the right players, assuming KW can do that. FOr losing Magglio they'lll get 2 draft picks. They should also offer arbitration to both Loaiza and Schoenweis and get those draft picks. As long as they keep pitching like crap there's no reason for them to get any sort of raise and a cut of some sort may be in order so they're proably both gone. This gives the Sox 4 draft picks for the 2005 draft in addition to their first round pick. If KW is any good that speeds up rebuilding.

Next, I'd trade JG. FOr whatever reason he doesn't get it. The Sox could probably get a ton for him since everyone knows he's young, healhty, and has the potential to be great. Let someone else deal with the headcase. Teams will give up a decent amount of talent for him. Next, Id trade PK. Nice to see him hitting for power, but the Sox should sell high with him. I wouldn't just give him away, but if he keeps hitting decently teams should have an interest being that he is in the last year of his contract coming off a strong season instead of the situation at the beginning of 2004, coming off a weak season with twice as much money in his contract.


It's a start, but the Sox could rebuild 'on the fly' during the offseason.


Bob

Dadawg_77
07-29-2004, 10:04 AM
Hmmmm.... I wonder if the Sox Squared trade of Konerko and Valentin for Nomar and Youkillis. The Red Sox need a third baseman and want to trade Nomar. The Sox would get a major league ready player who could play third, maybe move to first, money relief next year as there is a very interesting pool of FA's and draft pick from letting Nomar go. Plus the White Sox still could contend in the Central this year. Also Joe Crede because instant trade bait.

As for the philosophical question posed the Sox are at the crossroad where there are three paths to take. 1. Trade away veterans and rebuild, since the team will lose Mags in the off season and won't contend this year. 2. Stay pat, and hope it works out for the better and try to rebuild in the off season. 3. Damn the torpeados full speed ahead. Trade the farm away to acquire help to win this damn thing now. I would think 2 is the worst option for it really does nothing to improve your chances. Both 1 and 3 have their positives and negatives and have the same level of reward and level of risk. The biggest negative is you are throwing in the towel with one but you are building for a better tomorrow. Can a team contend after two of the best players in the game? Three, is a path everyone loves, but if it fails there will be years of misery ahead. The Marlins took this strategy last year when everyone thought they were going to trade Lowell, they fired their manager and added players. It worked for them but it won't work for Houston this year. It is a tough choice but I would go with options one or three before option two.

Mickster
07-29-2004, 10:11 AM
What I think that fledgedrallycap is saying (and I hope I am not putting words in his mouth)....

KW and JR stated that if fans show up, they will add talent and take on additional payroll. The problem is the injuries to Frank and Maggs. KW can do 3 things:

1. Add talent, add payroll, trade away more prospects in the hope of making some kind of run (however slim) and hold true to his word regarding increased attendance.

2. Stand pat. Do nothing at the trade deadline which might piss-off some fans and further alienate the growing fan-base because attendance has increased significantly and no real payroll was added.

3. Realize that the Sox are going nowhere, trade off some talent to get some younger, cheaper talent in return - thereby also alienating the fan base again.


The injuries to Frank and Maggs has placed KW in a tough situaton that I don't envy. Many here on this board, including myself, who are all armchair GM's, would love to have a chance at the helm. Not this year, at least not for me.:(:

nlentz88
07-29-2004, 10:15 AM
By acquiring Garcia and Everett, KW sent a message that he wanted the Sox to win this season, go to the playoffs, and hopefully make it past the first round. That was before learning Maggs would be out for most of the season. After the sweep by the Twins, KW is probably asking himself the same question we're discussing in this thread.


In my opinion, KW needs to go one of two ways. Either he acquires a superstar (Johnson, Beltran) and continues to commit to winning this season, or he should start concentrating on rebuilding for next season. Trading for quick-fix players to plug up the holes in our lineup or rotation won't do anything except cost us more prospects while the team hobbles towards the postseason for a quick exit. Any trade better be for a major acquisition or for nothing at all.

I agree about not wanting a repeat of the White Flag trade. Furthermore, being only 3.5 games out of first in the division is nothing insurmountable. The Sox very well could win the division or maybe even earn the wild card (less likely). However, I don't want to see repeat of the 2000 ALDS. If the Sox are going to the playoffs, I want them to win there. And that will take more talent than this team currently fields.

fledgedrallycap
07-29-2004, 10:19 AM
What I think that fledgedrallycap is saying (and I hope I am not putting words in his mouth)....
You are correct! Appartently I need to go to clarrification school :D:

JDP
07-29-2004, 10:35 AM
The Red Sox need a third baseman and want to trade Nomar.
If the Red Sox need a 3B, why would they trade Youkilis?

Dadawg_77
07-29-2004, 11:05 AM
If the Red Sox need a 3B, why would they trade Youkilis?
I meant first baseman just was thinking of Youkilis when typing.

joeynach
07-29-2004, 11:54 AM
By no means am I endorsing a White Flag trade (the season is not over), but rather throwing this out there for a hypothetical discussion.

If we wanted to give up and rebuild for next year, could we? Even if it were best for the long-term success of this franchise? I mean that in terms of perception (not talent), for years all we have heard from our ownership is "fill the stadium, and we will get players for a winner". Well, for the better part of two months the Sox faithful have been showing up to 35th and Shields in expectation of following a playoff-bound team.

Another major black eye would send any good vibes this organizations has been building right down the drain.
The answer is NO. A white flag trade would be us trading away veterans and potential FA's to get prospects. WHo do we have to trade away that anyone in contention would want. We dont really have any nasty contracts, or veterans to trade away. Maybe Maggs but you cant trade a player on the DL so no Maggs or Frank trade. Jose maybe but who really wants him as an addition as part of there stretch run, he is hitting .239! We are not going to trade any pitching becuase we have none to give up, and none that anyone would want really, we have a bunch of in house low level guys. In 1997 we had a lot of veterns and a tough situation with the monster indians right up there, we got rid of big contracts and potential FA's and stocked the farm. I fear this needs to be done again, but we dont have anyone to give up to get prospects.

pczarapa
07-29-2004, 11:55 AM
By no means am I endorsing a White Flag trade (the season is not over), but rather throwing this out there for a hypothetical discussion.

If we wanted to give up and rebuild for next year, could we? Even if it were best for the long-term success of this franchise? I mean that in terms of perception (not talent), for years all we have heard from our ownership is "fill the stadium, and we will get players for a winner". Well, for the better part of two months the Sox faithful have been showing up to 35th and Shields in expectation of following a playoff-bound team.

Another major black eye would send any good vibes this organizations has been building right down the drain.
We're only 3.5 games back with a lot of baseball to play, it's not time to build up for the future now.

ode to veeck
07-29-2004, 12:16 PM
We're only 3.5 games back with a lot of baseball to play, it's not time to build up for the future now.
... as well as a WF2 would crater attendance for the rest of the year, and alienate a whole new generation of excited new Sox fans

why are we asking these types of really dumb questions, more meaningful ones would be what do we do about leadoff, more hitting RISP, catcher, middle relief

Frater Perdurabo
07-29-2004, 01:12 PM
KW needs to work a small deal or two that will reap great rewards.

We all know that the biggest problem with the Sox is their inability to get on base at a decent clip for the power hitters in the middle of the lineup.

Trade 2-3 pitching prospects (Munoz, Diaz, Cotts, Adkins, Wing, Meaux, etc.) to Toronto (who need and want young pitching) for Gregg Zaun (switch hitting catcher who hits better on the road than the Skydome and is hitting .293 with a .392 OPS, on a minimal deal) and Frank Catalanotto (versatile lefty hitter who is hitting .321 with a .362 OPS, again, better away from Skydome, FA after 2004). Neither has blazing speed or power, but they are OBP machines who will get on base for Lee, Everett, Konerko and Valentin. Cat can DH or play left, first or second. Everett can move to right and Harris and Uribe can bat ninth and platoon at 2B.

The lineup would be: Cat (L), Zaun (S), Lee (R), Everett (S), Konerko (R), Valentin (L), Rowand (R), Crede (R), Harris (S)/Uribe (R).

Next year, trade Lee ($7.5 M) and Konerko ($8.0 M) for starting pitching, pick up Frank's option ($8.0) and re-sign Maggs ($14.5 M), Cat ($3M), Zaun ($2M) and Valentin ($2.5M). Or, go after Beltran instead of Maggs. Increased attendance will make it happen. The 2005 lineup would be lethal.