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Frank the Tank
07-28-2004, 11:21 PM
The biggest disappointment of this Twins series was the message sent by our manager. Ozzie's handling of the Hunter/Burke situation is a crime and a shame. Anyone who is trying to convince themself that the collision wasn't dirty and just "part of the game" doesn't understand baseball. The truth is Hunter didn't have to blast Burke on that play to score, but it really doesn't matter. What does matter is our catcher was drilled and Ozzie did nothing (worse yet, it happened on our home turf in front of a capacity crowd). Not only did he do nothing to stick up for his player/teammate that was obviously cheap-shoted, he defended Hunter. Had Ozzie plunked Hunter in the 9th, the benches would have cleared, there may have been suspensions (to both teams), but the move would almost certainly have built team unity and strengthened team chemistry. Instead, Ozzie sent a message to the Twins and more importantly the Sox players and fans that we have no heart or balls. I used to be a huge advocate of Ozzie/Ozzieball and the whole "its an attitude" campaign, but I now seriously question his competence as a Major League manager. By doing nothing, the wind was completely taken out of the team's sails, and I think we will be flat for the rest of the season. I don't think we will be able to recover. At first I loved the hiring of Ozzie, but I now realize that it was a bad idea

WSox8404
07-28-2004, 11:23 PM
The biggest disappointment of this Twins series was the message sent by our manager. Ozzie's handling of the Hunter/Burke situation is a crime and a shame. Anyone who is trying to convince themself that the collision wasn't dirty and just "part of the game" doesn't understand baseball. The truth is Hunter didn't have to blast Burke on that play to score, but it really doesn't matter. What does matter is our catcher was drilled and Ozzie did nothing (worse yet, it happened on our home turf in front of a capacity crowd). Not only did he do nothing to stick up for his player/teammate that was obviously cheap-shoted, he defended Hunter. Had Ozzie plunked Hunter in the 9th, the benches would have cleared, there may have been suspensions (to both teams), but the move would almost certainly have built team unity and strengthened team chemistry. Instead, Ozzie sent a message to the Twins and more importantly the Sox players and fans that we have no heart or balls. I used to be a huge advocate of Ozzie/Ozzieball and the whole "its an attitude" campaign, but I now seriously question his competence as a Major League manager. By doing nothing, the wind was completely taken out of the team's sails, and I think we will be flat for the rest of the season. I don't think we will be able to recover. At first I loved the hiring of Ozzie, but I now realize that it was a bad idea
Amen.

itsnotrequired
07-28-2004, 11:25 PM
The biggest disappointment of this Twins series was the message sent by our manager. Ozzie's handling of the Hunter/Burke situation is a crime and a shame. Anyone who is trying to convince themself that the collision wasn't dirty and just "part of the game" doesn't understand baseball. The truth is Hunter didn't have to blast Burke on that play to score, but it really doesn't matter. What does matter is our catcher was drilled and Ozzie did nothing (worse yet, it happened on our home turf in front of a capacity crowd). Not only did he do nothing to stick up for his player/teammate that was obviously cheap-shoted, he defended Hunter. Had Ozzie plunked Hunter in the 9th, the benches would have cleared, there may have been suspensions (to both teams), but the move would almost certainly have built team unity and strengthened team chemistry. Instead, Ozzie sent a message to the Twins and more importantly the Sox players and fans that we have no heart or balls. I used to be a huge advocate of Ozzie/Ozzieball and the whole "its an attitude" campaign, but I now seriously question his competence as a Major League manager. By doing nothing, the wind was completely taken out of the team's sails, and I think we will be flat for the rest of the season. I don't think we will be able to recover. At first I loved the hiring of Ozzie, but I now realize that it was a bad ideaWait, didn't you see the ad with Paulie and Shingo? Team chemistry is stronger than ever!

dcb33
07-28-2004, 11:36 PM
The biggest disappointment of this Twins series was the message sent by our manager. Ozzie's handling of the Hunter/Burke situation is a crime and a shame. Anyone who is trying to convince themself that the collision wasn't dirty and just "part of the game" doesn't understand baseball. The truth is Hunter didn't have to blast Burke on that play to score, but it really doesn't matter. What does matter is our catcher was drilled and Ozzie did nothing (worse yet, it happened on our home turf in front of a capacity crowd). Not only did he do nothing to stick up for his player/teammate that was obviously cheap-shoted, he defended Hunter. Had Ozzie plunked Hunter in the 9th, the benches would have cleared, there may have been suspensions (to both teams), but the move would almost certainly have built team unity and strengthened team chemistry. Instead, Ozzie sent a message to the Twins and more importantly the Sox players and fans that we have no heart or balls. I used to be a huge advocate of Ozzie/Ozzieball and the whole "its an attitude" campaign, but I now seriously question his competence as a Major League manager. By doing nothing, the wind was completely taken out of the team's sails, and I think we will be flat for the rest of the season. I don't think we will be able to recover. At first I loved the hiring of Ozzie, but I now realize that it was a bad idea

ABSOLUTELY! I am willing to write this off as a rookie mistake, but it was terrible he didn't stand up for our team and I'm convinced this is one of the reasons we got swept. If anything he alienated everyone on the team who thought Hunter took a cheap shot at Burke by saying that he wishes we played like the Twins.... That sends a terrible message to guys on the team like Buehrle who came out and said it was a cheap shot-
If Ozzie loves the Twins style of play so much why doesn't he just go manage them?
Who's fault is it that the entire team doesn't play hardnosed baseball like the Twins?

Dub25
07-28-2004, 11:41 PM
ABSOLUTELY! I am willing to write this off as a rookie mistake, but it was terrible he didn't stand up for our team and I'm convinced this is one of the reasons we got swept. If anything he alienated everyone on the team who thought Hunter took a cheap shot at Burke by saying that he wishes we played like the Twins.... That sends a terrible message to guys on the team like Buehrle who came out and said it was a cheap shot-
If Ozzie loves the Twins style of play so much why doesn't he just go manage them?
Who's fault is it that the entire team doesn't play hardnosed baseball like the Twins?
I agree with you guys for the most part. But to answer your question on who's fault is it about the entire team. The players. This current group of players don't have the killer instinct the other good teams have. Sure they can put up runs but when the games have been huge they score in the range of 0-3.

IlliniSoxFan
07-28-2004, 11:42 PM
Koskie got plunked 3 times the next game.

mantis1212
07-28-2004, 11:43 PM
The biggest disappointment of this Twins series was the message sent by our manager. Ozzie's handling of the Hunter/Burke situation is a crime and a shame. Anyone who is trying to convince themself that the collision wasn't dirty and just "part of the game" doesn't understand baseball. The truth is Hunter didn't have to blast Burke on that play to score, but it really doesn't matter. What does matter is our catcher was drilled and Ozzie did nothing (worse yet, it happened on our home turf in front of a capacity crowd). Not only did he do nothing to stick up for his player/teammate that was obviously cheap-shoted, he defended Hunter. Had Ozzie plunked Hunter in the 9th, the benches would have cleared, there may have been suspensions (to both teams), but the move would almost certainly have built team unity and strengthened team chemistry. Instead, Ozzie sent a message to the Twins and more importantly the Sox players and fans that we have no heart or balls. I used to be a huge advocate of Ozzie/Ozzieball and the whole "its an attitude" campaign, but I now seriously question his competence as a Major League manager. By doing nothing, the wind was completely taken out of the team's sails, and I think we will be flat for the rest of the season. I don't think we will be able to recover. At first I loved the hiring of Ozzie, but I now realize that it was a bad idea
Exactly what I was thinking. I am thoroughly dissappointed in Ozzie's non-actions this series. I especially can't believe how he started kissing Torii's a$$ after he gave our catcher a concussion. Torii should've had a 95mph fastball bounced off his upper torso, but instead the team just laid down.

Dub25
07-28-2004, 11:43 PM
Koskie got plunked 3 times the next game.
Even if those were intentional, that was a pathetic attempt to get even.

mantis1212
07-28-2004, 11:45 PM
Koskie got plunked 3 times the next game.
All softies, he's on top of the plate every AB and leads the world in HBP I believe

ClaudelSleptHere
07-28-2004, 11:46 PM
On the ESPN broadcast of today's game, the play involving Burke and Hunter was hotly debated on several occasions. David Justice went out of his way to back Hunter, and Steve Phillips (former Met GM) was on the side of the play being dirty. The best line, however, came from lead announcer Gary Thorne who said whether it was dirty or not, Hunter needs to get plunked in the ribs the very next at bat (are you listening, Ozzie and Jackson?). Big ups for Phillips and Thorne (despite him calling Guillen "Ozzie Smith" on several occasions). Shame on you Ozzie!! Teams get their personality from the manager, and this team is SOFT!!!

WSox8404
07-28-2004, 11:47 PM
On the ESPN broadcast of today's game, the play involving Burke and Hunter was hotly debated on several occasions. David Justice went out of his way to back Hunter, and Steve Phillips (former Met GM) was on the side of the play being dirty. The best line, however, came from lead announcer Gary Thorne who said whether it was dirty or not, Hunter needs to get plunked in the ribs the very next at bat (are you listening, Ozzie and Jackson?). Big ups for Phillips and Thorne (despite him calling Guillen "Ozzie Smith" on several occasions). Shame on you Ozzie!! Teams get their personality from the manager, and this team is SOFT!!!
Figures Justice would say it was clean. He is a moron who shouldn't be doing commentary.

dcb33
07-28-2004, 11:47 PM
Even if those were intentional, that was a pathetic attempt to get even.
Exactly. The best way to get even with the Twins would have been beating the crap out of them yesterday and today and taking control of the AL Central. Instead, we got demolished yesterday and gave today's game away, and I don't think you can wholly discount the fact that Ozzie didn't stand up for his team as one of the reasons why we lost both games...

mantis1212
07-28-2004, 11:49 PM
On the ESPN broadcast of today's game, the play involving Burke and Hunter was hotly debated on several occasions. David Justice went out of his way to back Hunter, and Steve Phillips (former Met GM) was on the side of the play being dirty. The best line, however, came from lead announcer Gary Thorne who said whether it was dirty or not, Hunter needs to get plunked in the ribs the very next at bat (are you listening, Ozzie and Jackson?). Big ups for Phillips and Thorne (despite him calling Guillen "Ozzie Smith" on several occasions). Shame on you Ozzie!! Teams get their personality from the manager, and this team is SOFT!!!
I don't know, it might have been an awkward ride when Jackson drove Jacque Jones back to his hotel room that night. Mike doesn't want that.

Ozzie's a lot softer than I thought, this whole episode is so dissappointing

VaSoxfan
07-28-2004, 11:52 PM
The biggest disappointment of this Twins series was the message sent by our manager. Ozzie's handling of the Hunter/Burke situation is a crime and a shame. Anyone who is trying to convince themself that the collision wasn't dirty and just "part of the game" doesn't understand baseball. The truth is Hunter didn't have to blast Burke on that play to score, but it really doesn't matter. What does matter is our catcher was drilled and Ozzie did nothing (worse yet, it happened on our home turf in front of a capacity crowd). Not only did he do nothing to stick up for his player/teammate that was obviously cheap-shoted, he defended Hunter. Had Ozzie plunked Hunter in the 9th, the benches would have cleared, there may have been suspensions (to both teams), but the move would almost certainly have built team unity and strengthened team chemistry. Instead, Ozzie sent a message to the Twins and more importantly the Sox players and fans that we have no heart or balls. I used to be a huge advocate of Ozzie/Ozzieball and the whole "its an attitude" campaign, but I now seriously question his competence as a Major League manager. By doing nothing, the wind was completely taken out of the team's sails, and I think we will be flat for the rest of the season. I don't think we will be able to recover. At first I loved the hiring of Ozzie, but I now realize that it was a bad idea

Good post. I said this the other night after Mondays game and got jumped on for it....the total lack of response, or to authorize a response, showed total cowardice on Ozzie's part. The worst part was when he defended Hunter...and the Twins. I am in Va, and have MLB Extra Innings...last nites game was on the Twins network and even they were saying how "Ozzie supported Hunter's play." Made me sick. Way to go Ozz. And way to go Sox for rolling over and playing dead again.

BarbG
07-29-2004, 01:10 AM
I'm not ready to give up completely on Ozzie yet, however, I agree his response was disappointing to say the least. I'm still shocked.

BarbG
07-29-2004, 01:12 AM
All softies, he's on top of the plate every AB and leads the world in HBP I believe

Probably. He leaned into it and got barely brushed on his incorrectly tucked jersey today.

BainesHOF
07-29-2004, 01:13 AM
The biggest disappointment of this Twins series was the message sent by our manager. Ozzie's handling of the Hunter/Burke situation is a crime and a shame.
I agree. The debate on weather it was a clean play completely misses the point. The point is they took out one of our guys and sent him to the hospital. There must be payback.

If Jackson nailed Hunter in the first game, does anyone think Hunter would have ran wild on us for the rest of the series like he did?

ClaudelSleptHere
07-29-2004, 01:30 AM
While we're getting on Ozzie, here is another quote from ChicagoSports.com that I find troubling:

"I was playing Uribe once in a while. (The Media) pushed me to put him in the lineup."

hmmmmmmm......

mcfish
07-29-2004, 03:08 AM
I think the worse message sent by Ozzie was sending Mike Jackson out to the mound with runners on base yet again. The message that sends me is that either Ozzie wants those runners to score and doesn't want to win or Ozzie pays absolutely no attention to either observational data or statistics in determining who to use out of the bullpen. Sitting in left Tuesday, when I saw MJ start warming, I got really angry and started thinking that maybe Ozzie is in over his head. How is it possible MJ got appearances on July 25, 26, AND 27??????

Nellie_Fox
07-29-2004, 03:29 AM
Koskie got plunked 3 times the next game.Please. Not one looked like anything but a breaking ball that got away. He wasn't drilled. Besides, why hit Koskie for what Hunter did? Drill Hunter, and then you make your intention clear.

Sox Mobile
07-29-2004, 03:36 AM
I also posted comments about Ozzie a few days ago, but no one wanted to hear it. Its clear Ozzie has his favorites and make no bones about it, I cant see how this is good for team "chemistry".

He has flat out embarrassed Loaiza on the mound a couple times. He started on him back in spring training, no wonder Loaiza looks like the most miserable person on the earth.

After Garcias start on Tuesday, Ozzie is quoted as "we wasted a good performance by Garcia". Did he see the same game? hardly earthshaking.

I am glad there are others totally disgusted by Ozzies lack of respect for his players and fans. His support and praise for Hunter is beyond.......... I cant even think of words to describe it.

I asked this question before, is there any one on Ozzies staff or in the organization that would recognize if he was out of hand? Is there anyone who would jerk his chain?

I had reservations about Ozzie in the beginning, i really thought he was proving me wrong. However, ive had enough of his Twin love fest to last me a long time.

Nard
07-29-2004, 03:50 AM
If he doesn't like beanball, then that's fine.... as long as Rivas get a concussion the next time he tried to turn a DP.

In Borchie Boy's moronic GIDP, why didn't the runner on first give Rivas a solid forearm to the throat or at least try to slide into him?

There are other ways to do things besides beanball, but boy do we look like a big bunch of pansy merry men right now.

And you would think Ozzie has learned the lesson about not giving MJ inherited runners. MJ is decent enough at the top of an inning where he has some control... but for the past two months I'd venture to say that 100% of MJ's inherited runners have scored.

ChiSoxBobette
07-29-2004, 07:46 AM
The biggest disappointment of this Twins series was the message sent by our manager. Ozzie's handling of the Hunter/Burke situation is a crime and a shame. Anyone who is trying to convince themself that the collision wasn't dirty and just "part of the game" doesn't understand baseball. The truth is Hunter didn't have to blast Burke on that play to score, but it really doesn't matter. What does matter is our catcher was drilled and Ozzie did nothing (worse yet, it happened on our home turf in front of a capacity crowd). Not only did he do nothing to stick up for his player/teammate that was obviously cheap-shoted, he defended Hunter. Had Ozzie plunked Hunter in the 9th, the benches would have cleared, there may have been suspensions (to both teams), but the move would almost certainly have built team unity and strengthened team chemistry. Instead, Ozzie sent a message to the Twins and more importantly the Sox players and fans that we have no heart or balls. I used to be a huge advocate of Ozzie/Ozzieball and the whole "its an attitude" campaign, but I now seriously question his competence as a Major League manager. By doing nothing, the wind was completely taken out of the team's sails, and I think we will be flat for the rest of the season. I don't think we will be able to recover. At first I loved the hiring of Ozzie, but I now realize that it was a bad idea
I ave to totally agree with you. I also thought Ozzie would bring a different attitude to this team but its no different than what we had with Manuel. The sad thing is that what hunter did was probably planned out before the game started , I'm sure Gardenhire told his players that if they got a chance to get a shot in , like hunter did, to take it because it worked in the past with the twins being able to intimidate the White Sox and the White Sox not doing anything about it. As I look back now to the hiring of Ozzie as manager after how he handled what happened I think we should have looked elsewhere for a manager , maybe Wally Backman was the guy but as is the case with the White Sox we always choose the wrong guy. This series with the tigers will tell everything because if the Sox get swept or loose 3 of 4 I think Ozzie has lost this team.

idseer
07-29-2004, 07:57 AM
The best line, however, came from lead announcer Gary Thorne who said whether it was dirty or not, Hunter needs to get plunked in the ribs the very next at bat (are you listening, Ozzie and Jackson?).
what kind of ignorance is that? so what you mean is ... even if you felt it was a clean play we should retaliate by trying to hurt hunter? do you guys even listen to yourselves?
no wonder the world is a totally screwed up and failed experiment. fatheads running around espousing a doctrine of revenge even if they weren't wronged in the first place.
this 'kill hunter' thinking is out of control here it seems. the mob mentality has taken over.

i can imagine the state of things in the near future based on what kind of examples you all are for your kids.

you truly deserve the world you live in.

Irishsox1
07-29-2004, 08:25 AM
The Hunter play is getting too much attention. It was a close play, but Ozzie didn't feel it was dirty, so forget about it. The reason the Sox got swept was Twins pitching. Radke, Santana, Silva and the bullpen all pitched well and held the Sox offense down. Without Frank and Maggs, more pressure gets put on the starters and bullpen which means this team is doomed.

gosox41
07-29-2004, 08:31 AM
I agree with you guys for the most part. But to answer your question on who's fault is it about the entire team. The players. This current group of players don't have the killer instinct the other good teams have. Sure they can put up runs but when the games have been huge they score in the range of 0-3.
And who is responsible for getting/keeping most of the players on the current roster?


Bob

gosox41
07-29-2004, 08:36 AM
I ave to totally agree with you. I also thought Ozzie would bring a different attitude to this team but its no different than what we had with Manuel. The sad thing is that what hunter did was probably planned out before the game started , I'm sure Gardenhire told his players that if they got a chance to get a shot in , like hunter did, to take it because it worked in the past with the twins being able to intimidate the White Sox and the White Sox not doing anything about it. As I look back now to the hiring of Ozzie as manager after how he handled what happened I think we should have looked elsewhere for a manager , maybe Wally Backman was the guy but as is the case with the White Sox we always choose the wrong guy. This series with the tigers will tell everything because if the Sox get swept or loose 3 of 4 I think Ozzie has lost this team.
I have to laugh at how the opinions of people in general (not specifically ChiSoxBob, his was just one of the many negative Ozzie opinios I picked randomly to respond to) change the minute things get tough and rality hits this team.

Come to think of it, it's also funny that when I tell the truth (about Ozzie or the players) I am a 'troll', 'clueless', and 'too negative'.

Add another one in there for me. I am 'right'.


Bob

seventytwo
07-29-2004, 08:43 AM
what kind of ignorance is that? so what you mean is ... even if you felt it was a clean play we should retaliate by trying to hurt hunter? do you guys even listen to yourselves?
no wonder the world is a totally screwed up and failed experiment. fatheads running around espousing a doctrine of revenge even if they weren't wronged in the first place.
this 'kill hunter' thinking is out of control here it seems. the mob mentality has taken over.

i can imagine the state of things in the near future based on what kind of examples you all are for your kids.

you truly deserve the world you live in.
Oh please, stop being such a drama queen. If a beanball to the ribs offends you so much (not to mention causes you to sophomorically inject your politics into your post) take up knitting, Mary.

What must you think of Bob Gibson and Don Drysdale!? Madmen!!! All of them

:rolleyes:

idseer
07-29-2004, 08:48 AM
Oh please, stop being such a drama queen. If a beanball to the ribs offends you so much (not to mention causes you to sophomorically inject your politics into your post) take up knitting, Mary.

What must you think of Bob Gibson and Don Drysdale!? Madmen!!! All of them

:rolleyes:
your 'tough guy' attitude makes my point very well.

seventytwo
07-29-2004, 08:56 AM
your 'tough guy' attitude makes my point very well.
I'm not sure that believing Hunter should have been plunked in the ribs makes me a "tough guy"...but whatever.

Jamie Burke thought it was a cheap shot, and if I'm his teammate....that's all I need to know. A lot of the flak that Ozzie's catching really should fall on the players. They shouldn't have to be told how to police the game, but I guess that's another side-effect of playing for JM for so long.

LuvSox
07-29-2004, 09:00 AM
take up knitting, Mary.

:)

Kilroy
07-29-2004, 09:04 AM
...a beanball to the ribs...
You do realize that you can't throw a beanball at someone's ribs, don't you?
If you don't, look it up before you use the word again.


All this bitching and moaning about not retailiating against Hunter and Ozzie sending bad messages. Which ever one of you was in the clubhouse and heard what Ozzie said to the team (not what he spewed to the press) please post that here. Until someone has that info, all the little ******* posting that crap in this thread should stop whining. Retaliation doesn't have to come the same day, same series, or even in the same season.

Bottom line was that we needed to win those games and they played like crap. Maybe that will wake their sorry asses up a little bit. I doubt it, but maybe.

seventytwo
07-29-2004, 09:12 AM
You do realize that you can't throw a beanball at someone's ribs, don't you?
If you don't, look it up before you use the word again.


All this bitching and moaning about not retailiating against Hunter and Ozzie sending bad messages. Which ever one of you was in the clubhouse and heard what Ozzie said to the team (not what he spewed to the press) please post that here. Until someone has that info, all the little ******* posting that crap in this thread should stop whining. Retaliation doesn't have to come the same day, same series, or even in the same season.

Bottom line was that we needed to win those games and they played like crap. Maybe that will wake their sorry asses up a little bit. I doubt it, but maybe.
Excuse me, Professor Semantics.

As far as when retaliation has to take place---how about in the same decade? The last time I remember a pitcher on our team sticking up for his teammate, Jim Parque was on the mound.

idseer
07-29-2004, 09:17 AM
I'm not sure that believing Hunter should have been plunked in the ribs makes me a "tough guy"...but whatever.

Jamie Burke thought it was a cheap shot, and if I'm his teammate....that's all I need to know.

the problem is, you don't know any such thing.

read this:
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=1847744

illiniwhitesox
07-29-2004, 09:27 AM
Although I am in the camp where we should have stood up for Burke and plunked Hunter, I was at the game yesterday and it was blatantly clear why we lost the game. The players!


1) Jose's baserunning gafe with no outs and men on first and second killed us. This was then followed up by a failed stolen base attempt. We stranded 5 runners that inning - first time I have seen this happen.
2) Jose's failure to catch a pop-up also killed us
3) Borchard swinging at the first pitch in the ninth, with runners on the corners, 1 out and the game on the line killed us. If you can not drive it into the outfield, don't swing at it.
4) Crede and the rest of the team constantly muffing bunts and not advancing runners.

We also had repeated breaks.
1) Two home runs called back. Does not matter that they were the right calls. It is the first time I have ever seen two home runs called back in one game.
2) Timo's bunt with 2 outs and the bases drunk. Pretty risky and we all would have been pissed if it did not work.

I had 5 Twinkie fans sitting behind me and even they could not believe that they won the game. Their comment was that the White Sox lost this one more than they won it.

Kilroy
07-29-2004, 09:39 AM
3) Borchard swinging at the first pitch in the ninth, with runners on the corners, 1 out and the game on the line killed us. If you can not drive it into the outfield, don't swing at it.
I didn't have the stomach to watch the tape last night, but I'm told that the pitch was down and in. People have said that he ripped it, but a down and in pitch isn't going to turn into a fly ball too often. If it was a fat pitch right down the middle, I might agree w/ swinging at the first pitch. But a pitch down and in? That means that Borchard = dumb ass.

Kilroy
07-29-2004, 09:41 AM
Excuse me, Professor Semantics.
Hey, just doing my part to eliminate ignorance in the world...

Flight #24
07-29-2004, 10:54 AM
Good post. I said this the other night after Mondays game and got jumped on for it....the total lack of response, or to authorize a response, showed total cowardice on Ozzie's part. The worst part was when he defended Hunter...and the Twins. I am in Va, and have MLB Extra Innings...last nites game was on the Twins network and even they were saying how "Ozzie supported Hunter's play." Made me sick. Way to go Ozz. And way to go Sox for rolling over and playing dead again.
Ummmm......someone correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Ozzie quoted numerous times after that game as saying that part of the way he wanted his guys to play was physical and actually saying something to the effect that "we need to go hard into second. They just lost their 2B for the season, and if we go hard in, we could take out another guy and they don't have much depth there anymore"?

Sounds to me like he's advocating not specific retribution, but at least sending the same message that we won't back down.

seventytwo
07-29-2004, 01:09 PM
the problem is, you don't know any such thing.

read this:
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=1847744
That's not the tune he was singing right after the play. He was "miked" up for the telecast, and he called it a cheap shot.

idseer
07-29-2004, 01:14 PM
That's not the tune he was singing right after the play. He was "miked" up for the telecast, and he called it a cheap shot.
of course not! he was blindsided and didn't know WHAT happened. he came back to the dugout assuming since HE knew he wasn't going to tag him in time so he wasn't in the play. but he was ... a fact he obviously found out afterward after seeing the play himself.

LASOXFAN
07-29-2004, 01:16 PM
Ozzie has looked a little unsure at times, and this was a glaring example. The Sox just got bitch slapped by the twins. Period. We all want to believe that they'll respond and hit back, but when was the last time you saw that from the Sox?

2000

4 years ago.

too long, you ask me.

shame on mike jackson, shame on Ozzie, shame on the Sox.

Mickster
07-29-2004, 01:16 PM
of course not! he was blindsided and didn't know WHAT happened. he came back to the dugout assuming since HE knew he wasn't going to tag him in time so he wasn't in the play. but he was ... a fact he obviously found out afterward after seeing the play himself.
Or by the fact that the play is being downplayed by the sox so that if a situation presents itself later in the year, it will not look like a "revenge" hit...... :dunno:

seventytwo
07-29-2004, 01:16 PM
Hey, just doing my part to eliminate ignorance in the world...
A noble quest.


Maybe you could move on to people who spell Valentin as "Valentine" and then on to really big things....like people who type too fast and spell the as "teh"

seventytwo
07-29-2004, 01:18 PM
of course not! he was blindsided and didn't know WHAT happened. he came back to the dugout assuming since HE knew he wasn't going to tag him in time so he wasn't in the play. but he was ... a fact he obviously found out afterward after seeing the play himself.
Or maybe he found out what the company line was going to be on this matter.

BarbG
07-29-2004, 01:24 PM
I heard that on the mike that night too. He wasn't being a jerk about it. He was stating a fact.

It was a VERY cheap shot. First and foremost, there is no reason to charge in like that when you already have an 87-run lead. All they were doing at that point was running up the score. If the game was on the line, maybe. It wasn't. Nowhere near.

Burke got out of the way. (This wasn't Fisk guarding the plate.) Hunter took a left turn and tackled him, period. The play wasn't that close, he could have come in dancing a merengue and still been safe.

The umpires in this series blew. The pitcher gets tossed for hitting Rowand, Hunter doesn't even get a warning for fully intentionally giving Burke a concussion. It's a home run, no wait, it's a double, hey it's a home run, no it's a foul ball. We were there yesterday to see the very clearly foul ball. Uribe checked his swing, no wait, let me THINK ABOUT IT - no, he went around. These umpires sucked. They are supposed to be in control of the game and part of the reason this went up in smoke was that they let the games get so far out of control. Zero consistency.

Kind of like Ozzie this month.

idseer
07-29-2004, 01:34 PM
Or maybe he found out what the company line was going to be on this matter.

obviously there is no use bringing facts into this. the guy SAYS no, so you spin that to mean he's just keeping quiet about his real feelings. i have a feeling it doesn't matter what anyone says ... you think it was dirty so it's dirty.

well check back with me in a couple years and let me know how that payback went, ok?

seventytwo
07-29-2004, 01:44 PM
obviously there is no use bringing facts into this. the guy SAYS no, so you spin that to mean he's just keeping quiet about his real feelings. i have a feeling it doesn't matter what anyone says ... you think it was dirty so it's dirty.

well check back with me in a couple years and let me know how that payback went, ok?
Actually, the guy SAID it was a cheap shot, right after the play. Then you spun it to fit your idea of what happened.

What's the difference?

Anyway, I'm done arguing with fellow Sox fans. It's obvious neither of us will change our minds, and have different views of the incident.

Whatever the case, we need to start a winning streak tonight.

ClaudelSleptHere
07-29-2004, 03:01 PM
what kind of ignorance is that? so what you mean is ... even if you felt it was a clean play we should retaliate by trying to hurt hunter? do you guys even listen to yourselves?
no wonder the world is a totally screwed up and failed experiment. fatheads running around espousing a doctrine of revenge even if they weren't wronged in the first place.
this 'kill hunter' thinking is out of control here it seems. the mob mentality has taken over.

i can imagine the state of things in the near future based on what kind of examples you all are for your kids.

you truly deserve the world you live in.
Perhaps I didn't quote Gary Thorne directly. I think what he was trying to say was that if as many people thought the hit was dirty, he was surprised that the Sox did nothing to retaliate when they had the chance. Thank you for being so concerned for my children, but they seem to be doing okay in the world in which they are living. They know the difference between idle baseball chatter and valid sociological issues.

Jerko
07-29-2004, 03:04 PM
I don't want to get into the whole dirty play vs. non-dirty play thing. I just look at it like this: Hunter would have scored easier without running into Burke so I take it with a grain of salt either way.

hillbilly
07-29-2004, 03:12 PM
All of you guys have dumb baseball minds with all due respect. What ozzie said about the play being "how you play baseball" is absolutely right. When Hunter hit Burke, the ball had just passed Burke. How could you fault Hunter for trying to score a pretty important run? Could he have slid around Burke and still been safe? Since when is trying to score a run a dirty play? Just because what he did hurt the Sox as a team and individually hurt Burke doesn't make it dirty. All of you guys may be Sox fans, but not too many of you know baseball.

Frank the Tank
07-29-2004, 03:22 PM
All of you guys have dumb baseball minds with all due respect. What ozzie said about the play being "how you play baseball" is absolutely right. When Hunter hit Burke, the ball had just passed Burke. How could you fault Hunter for trying to score a pretty important run? Could he have slid around Burke and still been safe? Since when is trying to score a run a dirty play? Just because what he did hurt the Sox as a team and individually hurt Burke doesn't make it dirty. All of you guys may be Sox fans, but not too many of you know baseball.
Hillbilly:

Is your real name Eric Dybas?

idseer
07-29-2004, 03:48 PM
Actually, the guy SAID it was a cheap shot, right after the play. Then you spun it to fit your idea of what happened.

What's the difference?
i PROVE to you burke DIDN'T think it was a cheap shot regardless what he said when he got his bell rung and you call it a spin and stick to the falsehood you started out with?

holy freaking cow! what does that 72 stand for anyway? i got a good guess.

BlackAndWhite
07-29-2004, 04:11 PM
i PROVE to you burke DIDN'T think it was a cheap shot regardless what he said when he got his bell rung and you call it a spin and stick to the falsehood you started out with?

holy freaking cow! what does that 72 stand for anyway? i got a good guess.
I wouldn't try using logic (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=442463&postcount=47) around here, people get confused. :)

Foulke29
07-29-2004, 04:14 PM
David Justice went out of his way to back Hunter, and Steve Phillips (former Met GM) was on the side of the play being dirty.
Figures on Justice - say, isn't this the guy that was married to Halle Berry, but beat on her - so she divorced him?

Blob
07-29-2004, 05:02 PM
Exactly. The best way to get even with the Twins would have been beating the crap out of them yesterday and today and taking control of the AL Central. Instead, we got demolished yesterday and gave today's game away, and I don't think you can wholly discount the fact that Ozzie didn't stand up for his team as one of the reasons why we lost both games...
Exactly! Ozzie told them don't retaliate, get even by WINNING!!! That should have been motivation enough for the players. you don't have to hit someone to get even and no one here gets it.

ma-gaga
07-29-2004, 05:37 PM
Is this still an issue? good lord.

C'mon, it's July. You can't worry about 1 freaking play in a single game loss in July. There's freaking 60 games to go. Cowboy Up! er...

Baseball is a game where you go out the next night with a clean slate. The previous nights' game HAS TO BE FORGOTTEN. You play hard and smart and you'll win more than you lose. We'll see if Ozzie can make the Sox unlearn what happened in the last 3 games. Their season depends on it.

BarbG
07-29-2004, 06:07 PM
How could you fault Hunter for trying to score a pretty important run?

Insurance run #4 in the 8th is a pretty important run?

Could he have slid around Burke and still been safe?

Yes. No question. Not a question of going "around" as Burke was NOT in the base path but off to the side.

Since when is trying to score a run a dirty play? All of you guys may be Sox fans, but not too many of you know baseball.

Since he went OUT of the base path and sent the catcher to the hospital. If it's so normal, everyday, customary, ordinary baseball why are catchers not dropping like flies? Since this would happen several times every day. And I do know baseball well enough to recognize a "slide," which is what you do to score under a throw. This wasn't one.

idseer
07-29-2004, 06:59 PM
Insurance run #4 in the 8th is a pretty important run?



Yes. No question. Not a question of going "around" as Burke was NOT in the base path but off to the side.



Since he went OUT of the base path and sent the catcher to the hospital. If it's so normal, everyday, customary, ordinary baseball why are catchers not dropping like flies? Since this would happen several times every day. And I do know baseball well enough to recognize a "slide," which is what you do to score under a throw. This wasn't one.perhaps if you read the whole thread and seen all the arguments you wouldn't be wasting everyone's time with this same dumb argument that's been hashed and rehashed. everyone "involved" didn't think it was dirty. end of STUPID argument!

BarbG
07-29-2004, 07:14 PM
I guess Burke wasn't "involved" then, and neither was Hawk.

So sorry to have wasted your time. As strongly as I disagree with every word you said I never stooped to accusing you of wasting anybody's time or answered with anything but facts and respect.

And I did read the whole thread but I'm not going to argue about it to prove it. This is just plain mean.

idseer
07-29-2004, 07:31 PM
I guess Burke wasn't "involved" then, and neither was Hawk.

So sorry to have wasted your time. As strongly as I disagree with every word you said I never stooped to accusing you of wasting anybody's time or answered with anything but facts and respect.

And I did read the whole thread but I'm not going to argue about it to prove it. This is just plain mean.
1. burke CLEARLY said it wasn't a cheap shot!

2. hawk is an idiot!

nofluke69
07-29-2004, 10:13 PM
Even if ozzie thought the play wasn't dirty. He should've used it to rally his troops. Don't side with the enemy on anything. Make sure your team knows that you are behind them no matter what. How are they going to respect you when you don't respect them. I didn't like the hire in the begining and I'm starting to hate it now. Wonder if any of the players feel the same way?

pczarapa
07-29-2004, 10:56 PM
Even if ozzie thought the play wasn't dirty. He should've used it to rally his troops. Don't side with the enemy on anything. Make sure your team knows that you are behind them no matter what. How are they going to respect you when you don't respect them. I didn't like the hire in the begining and I'm starting to hate it now. Wonder if any of the players feel the same way?

I'd take Ozzie 7 days a week, twice on Tuesdays over Manuel. Yes, he's made some mistakes (some really really bad mistakes) but I like Ozzie and I think if Maggs and Hurt were in the lineup we probably wouldn't even think twice about it.

Kilroy
07-29-2004, 11:33 PM
Even if ozzie thought the play wasn't dirty. He should've used it to rally his troops.
.5 games back of 1st and playing the team we're chasing. The Sox would be pretty ****ing poor if they needed that play to get motivated. That was days ago. Live in the now.

Frank the Tank
07-30-2004, 08:22 PM
.5 games back of 1st and playing the team we're chasing. The Sox would be pretty ****ing poor if they needed that play to get motivated. That was days ago. Live in the now.
Wasn't it a bench clearing brawl that jump started the sox in 2000?

Kilroy
07-30-2004, 08:30 PM
Wasn't it a bench clearing brawl that jump started the sox in 2000?
I don't think so, that team was already playing pretty well. But what's that got to do with the price of tea in China? This is a completely different team.

Frank the Tank
07-30-2004, 08:37 PM
I don't think so, that team was already playing pretty well. But what's that got to do with the price of tea in China? This is a completely different team.
It was a different team (not near completely different), but the 2000 team didn't seem to gel together until the 2 bench clearling brawls in the same game. The brawls seemed to unite the team and I am sure it contributed to their success that season. I think a brawl would have done this current team good. No way to prove it, just my opinion.

Kilroy
07-30-2004, 08:42 PM
I think a brawl would have done this current team good. No way to prove it, just my opinion.
How would a brawl get them to hit?

Frank the Tank
07-30-2004, 08:52 PM
How would a brawl get them to hit?
Ironically, I don't think hitting is the "problem" with our team (although I am fully aware our hitting sucks at this time). I think our main problem is that our team is flat and has no energy. If we had some drive and intensity, I am sure the hitting would come around. Getting back to the Burke/Hunter situation, there is no doubt in my mind that a brawl would have lit a match under the butts of our players.

oldcomiskey
07-31-2004, 08:36 AM
oh please--give it a rest.... I wish the Sox played with that intensity..and just so you know--Hunter did not emphatically step on home plate as suggested earlier.... Ozzie sent the right message by not retaliating--what would that prive anyway--the twins kicked our ass--nothing more need be said

Nellie_Fox
08-01-2004, 03:07 AM
..and just so you know--Hunter did not emphatically step on home plate as suggested earlier.No, you're right. I still think it was a cheap shot, but all he did afterward was make sure he had touched the plate.

flo-B-flo
08-01-2004, 03:44 AM
A few years ago I was going from 1st to 3rd on a basehit. I couldn't see the ball, as it was coming from behind me. I saw the 3rd baseman reach for the ball and I knew he was going for the "sweep tag". I slid late and right at him as I reached for the base. He dropped the ball and then fell on me, and took a swing at me. The rest of that game and for the next 2 or 3 times we faced those guys my teammates broke up dp's, slid extremely hard, and all around made them pay for the 3rd baseman swinging at me. There are legal ways in baseball to seek retribution when a teammate is maligned.:cool: