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View Full Version : This team should rebuild around a few core players


ChiSoxTony
07-28-2004, 09:21 PM
This team needs more speed, defense and clutch hitting. We should re-build around a few players the following players should be kept.

Pitchers
Garcia
Buhrle
Marte
Shingo

Position Players
Rowand
Mags (if you can sign him for reasonable money)
Everett (he can dh and play a little LF)

DH
Frank (he gets on base)

Everyone else can be traded, released, or allowed to leave via free agency.
Crede, Lee, Konerko, garland can bring good value in trades. We can build around these players with ones that better fit ozzies philosophy.

OEO Magglio
07-28-2004, 09:22 PM
Why are we rebuilding in the thick of a pennant race?

habibharu
07-28-2004, 09:26 PM
i brought this up a couple days ago! if we dont make the playoffs last year it is time to not rebuild, but to change the philosophy. get rid of jose, maggs will already be gone, trade either PK or C lee for some grinders, sign a stud SP, let ELO go, and keep frank just so he stays in a sox uniform. build around SP for once, instead of hitting! learn something from Beane! I dont know who the SP are this offseason but sign the best, and build around burly, freddy, stud FA SP, and garland! keep aaron, caballo, harris, crede, unfortuantely, and trade for kendall NOW.

JB98
07-28-2004, 09:26 PM
Why are we rebuilding in the thick of a pennant race?
Good question. I'll think about rebuilding if we fail to make the playoffs this year. I'm as down as anyone right now. In fact, I'm downright furious. It's still way too early to talk about 2005, however.

ChiSoxTony
07-28-2004, 09:26 PM
because this team as it stands cannot get in the playoffs and win the world series

WHarris13
07-28-2004, 09:26 PM
We can build around these players with ones that better fit ozzies philosophy.While I still think we are in the race, over time I think Ozzie will get more of his type of players(speed, fundamental, D, etc.) Then we will see some smallball played. The teams as it is right now is not built for that.

ode to veeck
07-28-2004, 09:26 PM
Why are we rebuilding in the thick of a pennant race?
Exactly, we're three car lengths behind after a bad lap ... and there's like 70 left. It ain't time for a new motor.

OEO Magglio
07-28-2004, 09:28 PM
because this team as it stands cannot get in the playoffs and win the world series
And you know this how?

RKMeibalane
07-28-2004, 09:29 PM
:threadsucks

ChiSoxTony
07-28-2004, 09:30 PM
Did the performances the last 4 games resemble those of a World Series contender?

soltrain21
07-28-2004, 09:31 PM
I'm getting sick of the "this thread sucks" guy.


Honestly, what has this team shown you that says we can make the playoffs, let alone win IN the playoffs?

OEO Magglio
07-28-2004, 09:33 PM
Did the performances the last 4 games resemble those of a World Series contender?
And if you judge a baseball team by 4 games you really don't know anything about baseball.

RKMeibalane
07-28-2004, 09:35 PM
And if you judge a baseball team by 4 games you really don't know anything about baseball.
Amen. I'm getting sick and tired of the trolling on this board.

soltrain21
07-28-2004, 09:35 PM
And if you judge a baseball team by 4 games you really don't know anything about baseball.

And if you think the current team we are fielding are going to go anywhere then you need to stop drinking the koolaid

OEO Magglio
07-28-2004, 09:36 PM
I'm getting sick of the "this thread sucks" guy.


Honestly, what has this team shown you that says we can make the playoffs, let alone win IN the playoffs?
I don't know, how about that sweep in minny, how about shutting out the best hitting team in baseball for two games, there are many other examples, plus the fact we have our two best hitters on the dl, so if they do come back we'd be in even better shape. You guys have to relax a 4 game losing streak isn't the end of the season or the world and I agree with RK about this thread.

RKMeibalane
07-28-2004, 09:37 PM
And if you think the current team we are fielding are going to go anywhere then you need to stop drinking the koolaid
Folks, the reason the Sox are not in first right now is because they are missing their two best players. The team itself is good enough to win their division. The fact that they aren't can be chalked up to bad luck. It happens. Injuries are part of baseball. The Sox are not out of the race, yet.

Daver
07-28-2004, 09:38 PM
And if you judge a baseball team by 4 games you really don't know anything about baseball.

DING! DING! DING!

We have a winner!



But then again, what the hell do I know?

JB98
07-28-2004, 09:39 PM
Did the performances the last 4 games resemble those of a World Series contender?
No, but the performances June 29-July 1 at the MetroDome did. I'm frustrated too, but we let's just wait and see how the season plays out before we start thinking about major changes. If we fail, we have the whole offseason to speculate about 2005.

ChiSoxTony
07-28-2004, 09:40 PM
So getting swept in an important series isn't enough to convince OEO. Well then
how about these disturbing points:

1) Inconsistent pitching throughout the season. We score a run and give it back the next inning.
2) Relying on the long ball way to much.
3) Failing to advance runners.
4) Terrible clutch hitting
5) Missing our two best players
6) Below average defense
7) Struggling against quality pitchers because we constantly try to go for the long ball.

soltrain21
07-28-2004, 09:41 PM
Folks, the reason the Sox are not in first right now is because they are missing their two best players.


Well guess what? Those two players are going to be out for quite a while. So the team we have RIGHT NOW is not capable of doing much. They are certainly showing us that.

I was confident when we had Frank and Maggs. I'm not very confident right now.

RKMeibalane
07-28-2004, 09:45 PM
No, but the performances June 29-July 1 at the MetroDome did. I'm frustrated too, but we let's just wait and see how the season plays out before we start thinking about major changes. If we fail, we have the whole offseason to speculate about 2005.
Thank you. We have yet to really see what this team can accomplish when fully healthy. Teams don't lose their two best hitters and not miss a beat. Imagine what the St. Louis Cardinals would be like if any two of their three stars (Pujols, Rolen, Edmonds) were injured. I don't think they'd be in first place. Where would the Texas Rangers be without Soriano and Blalock? Not in contention.

There are a number of people on this board who need to ****. I realize that everyone is frustrated. I'm frustrated, too. But the fact of the matter is, the Sox have not had both Frank Thomas and Magglio Ordonez in the lineup together since May 25. Anyone who thinks that doesn't matter, that the Sox should be winning anyway, is out of his mind.

JB98
07-28-2004, 09:46 PM
Well guess what? Those two players are going to be out for quite a while. So the team we have RIGHT NOW is not capable of doing much. They are certainly showing us that.

I was confident when we had Frank and Maggs. I'm not very confident right now.
OK. Fine. We're 3.5 games out, just like we were on this date in July 1997. Let's gut the team. Just trade everybody for a group of prospects on the blind hope that one day it will all work out. Will that make you happy? It won't make me happy.:angry: :angry: :angry:

RKMeibalane
07-28-2004, 09:47 PM
Well guess what? Those two players are going to be out for quite a while. So the team we have RIGHT NOW is not capable of doing much. They are certainly showing us that.

I was confident when we had Frank and Maggs. I'm not very confident right now.
So you want to blow the team up based on the fact that the Sox haven't been healthy this season? Assuming they can re-sign Ordonez, I want to see what the Sox can accomplish with a healthy twenty-five-man roster.

soltrain21
07-28-2004, 09:48 PM
OK. Fine. We're 3.5 games out, just like we were on this date in July 1997. Let's gut the team. Just trade everybody for a group of prospects on the blind hope that one day it will all work out. Will that make you happy? It won't make me happy.:angry: :angry: :angry:

I'm not saying trade them right now. But if we don't do anything this year we better have a new plan for next year.

soltrain21
07-28-2004, 09:50 PM
So you want to blow the team up based on the fact that the Sox haven't been healthy this season? Assuming they can re-sign Ordonez, I want to see what the Sox can accomplish with a healthy twenty-five-man roster.


We have seen what they can accomplish...nothing


Once again...I am not talking about this year, but if we don't make it I would really like to see some changes for next year.

PaleHoseGeorge
07-28-2004, 09:53 PM
This We should re-build around a few players the following players should be kept.
Re-build? Absolutely.

Here are the two players to "rebuild" around that blow to hell all those piles of **** you think so highly of:

1. Magglio Ordonez
2. Frank Thomas

Man, take a double dose of these, already.

:prozac
:prozac

RKMeibalane
07-28-2004, 09:54 PM
We have seen what they can accomplish...nothing


Once again...I am not talking about this year, but if we don't make it I would really like to see some changes for next year.
The Sox were tied for first place (25-19) when Maggs originally went down with the knee injury. They were in contention. Is that nothing?

RKMeibalane
07-28-2004, 09:55 PM
Man, take a double dose of these, already.

:prozac
:prozac
He needs more than that.

soltrain21
07-28-2004, 09:56 PM
The Sox were tied for first place (25-19) when Maggs originally went down with the knee injury. They were in contention. Is that nothing?

What was 2003?

Maggs isn't going to be back this year. It is crappy luck for us.

I hate this as much as you do, but we can't keep these guys around if they are going to win anything.

RKMeibalane
07-28-2004, 09:57 PM
What was 2003?

Maggs isn't going to be back this year. It is crappy luck for us.

I hate this as much as you do, but we can't keep these guys around if they are going to win anything.
The 2003 Chicago White Sox were a different team than the one the Sox have this season. The manager is also different. I would like to see what this team can accomplish when healthy. Until they prove that they can't get it done, I'm not going to count them out.

THE_HOOTER
07-28-2004, 10:01 PM
I will say something in defense of rebuilding/cleaning house...


With the farm system we have, there is no future right now, except for 2 guys, Buerhle and Garcia.

The lineup we are putting out right now is pretty awful due to the gaping hole at 3 & 4.

Since this hole isnt coming back anytime soon, the question remains can we be competitive with the lineup we currently have? My answer is no.

We either have to further deplete our farm system and replace the hole, try and hold on until Frank gets back, or start over.

I vote for replacing the hole, but I wont vote for the situation as it is now.

soltrain21
07-28-2004, 10:02 PM
The 2003 Chicago White Sox were a different team than the one the Sox have this season. The manager is also different. I would like to see what this team can accomplish when healthy. Until they prove that they can't get it done, I'm not going to count them out.

So would I, but they aren't healthy and they won't be healthy for a while.



In a dream world we can resign Maggs and a slap hitter to get on base the majority of the time for 2005. But that probably won't happen either.

skobabe8
07-28-2004, 10:03 PM
I'm also as frustrated as anyone, but closing shop on '04 is not the answer. This is gut-check time, if nothing else. We have a HUGE chunk of games against the AL central in august. Let minny start playing that august schedule of theirs, which makes me shutter. When the dust settles come september, we could actually be up a couple games.

RKMeibalane
07-28-2004, 10:04 PM
The Sox are only 3.5 games behind Minnesota. They can make that up within the next week. The Twins have a difficult stretch of games coming up, and they're not going to continue to get lucky. The Sox are still in this thing. And, I have the feeling that if the Sox are close to the Twins in September, that Frank will at least try to come back and help. Why? It's simple. Frank wants to win a World Series, but he knows he's running out of time. I seriously doubt he's going to sit back and watch this team run itself into the ground.

Don't give up hope.

soltrain21
07-28-2004, 10:07 PM
I'm also as frustrated as anyone, but closing shop on '04 is not the answer. This is gut-check time, if nothing else. We have a HUGE chunk of games against the AL central in august. Let minny start playing that august schedule of theirs, which makes me shutter. When the dust settles come september, we could actually be up a couple games.


I am not talking about hanging it up for THIS YEAR. I am saying that if we can't get it done this year (which there is nothing you can do for injuries) it might be time to break up the core.


It is becoming pretty apparent that Ozzie isn't very happy with the team he has to work with.

CWSGuy406
07-28-2004, 10:14 PM
What was 2003?

Maggs isn't going to be back this year. It is crappy luck for us.

I hate this as much as you do, but we can't keep these guys around if they are going to win anything.
Maggs might not be back, but Frank sure will be. And a lineup of

Harris
Rowand
Thomas
Lee
Everett
Konerko
Valentin
Crede
3-Heads

is more than good enough to take a team into the playoffs and beyond.

Chill out - four games and now the season is over. GMAB.

SoxFanSince67
07-28-2004, 10:16 PM
With the psssible exception of several years, the Sox have been re-building for the past 30 plus years.

RKMeibalane
07-28-2004, 10:16 PM
I am not talking about hanging it up for THIS YEAR. I am saying that if we can't get it done this year (which there is nothing you can do for injuries) it might be time to break up the core.


It is becoming pretty apparent that Ozzie isn't very happy with the team he has to work with.
If Williams wants to break this team up, he may have tough time doing so. Frank Thomas has 10-5 rights, so he can veto any trade offer with another club. He also has the mutual option in his contract, so he can decide if he wants to return to Chicago for 2005. KW has wanted to get rid of Frank for years, but he hasn't been able to pull it off (and he won't ever pull it off).

Ordonez might agree to sign-and-trade deal of sorts, but then the question becomes what the Sox can get in return for Maggs. Williams would need to find a team willing to trade prospects or players that can play positions where the Sox have holes. Otherwise, he may end losing Maggs for nothing (because Reinsdorf is cheap).

The Sox may not be able to overhaul their core for several more seasons. Frank has said that he would like to play for several more years, as long as he is happy with his performance. Konerko is under contract for a few more years, as is Carlos Lee. The Sox could try to trade Konerko and move Frank back to first base, but they would most likely have to pay a portion of Konerko's salary in order to make the deal work.

Everett is under contract for one more season, so where he ends up will depend on what the Sox do next season. If they're in contention, he'll be around. If not, they'll probably trade him somewhere else.

And so on, and so on. Overhauling this team is going to be a long and difficult process. The Sox might as well try to win with what they have, because once the core is broken up, it may be several years before they're competitive again. Unless, of course, Reinsdorf sells before then.

Daver
07-28-2004, 10:22 PM
If Williams wants to break this team up, he may have tough time doing so. Frank Thomas has 10-5 rights, so he can veto any trade offer with another club. He also has the mutual option in his contract, so he can decide if he wants to return to Chicago for 2005. KW has wanted to get rid of Frank for years, but he hasn't been able to pull it off (and he won't ever pull it off).

Ordonez might agree to sign-and-trade deal of sorts, but then the question becomes what the Sox can get in return for Maggs. Williams would need to find a team willing to trade prospects or players that can play positions where the Sox have holes. Otherwise, he may end losing Maggs for nothing (because Reinsdorf is cheap).

The Sox may not be able to overhaul their core for several more seasons. Frank has said that he would like to play for several more years, as long as he is happy with his performance. Konerko is under contract for a few more years, as is Carlos Lee. The Sox could try to trade Konerko and move Frank back to first base, but they would most likely have to pay a portion of Konerko's salary in order to make the deal work.

Everett is under contract for one more season, so where he ends up will depend on what the Sox do next season. If they're in contention, he'll be around. If not, they'll probably trade him somewhere else.

And so on, and so on. Overhauling this team is going to be a long and difficult process. The Sox might as well try to win with what they have, because once the core is broken up, it may be several years before they're competitive again. Unless, of course, Reinsdorf sells before then.
Konerko is under contract through the end of the 2005 season, and Everett has an option for next year. Carlos Lee is signed through 2007, as is Mark Buehrle.

RKMeibalane
07-28-2004, 10:26 PM
Konerko is under contract through the end of the 2005 season, and Everett has an option for next year. Carlos Lee is signed through 2007, as is Mark Buehrle.
Thanks. I guess that would mean Konerko could be allowed to walk. It would safe the Sox a fair amount of money they could then use to sign another pitcher or a legitamite center fielder. That would solve some of their problems, provided that the rest of the team stays in tact.

Getting back to my original point, the Sox are better off trying to win now, because they don't have enough talent in their farm sytem to re-build. Trading some of their veterans might bring prospects in return, but there's no guarantee that any of them will pan out.

South Side
07-28-2004, 10:27 PM
Threads like these are so idiotic... And if we go on a 5 game winning streak beginning tomorrow, should we rebuild? Let's put things into perspective here... Saturday we were ecstatic because we were 10 games over .500, Wed. we're all depressed and ready to committ suicide... Hmmm, I wonder where we'll be by Sun.?

RKMeibalane
07-28-2004, 10:28 PM
Threads like these are so idiotic... And if we go on a 5 game winning streak beginning tomorrow, should we rebuild? Let's put things into perspective here... Saturday we were ecstatic because we were 10 games over .500, Wed. we're all depressed and ready to committ suicide... Hmmm, I wonder where we'll be by Sun.?
I agree, again. People need to step back from the ledge and calm down. The Sox are still in this thing.

HITMEN OF 77
07-28-2004, 10:38 PM
This group won the division 3 years ago, so there is no reason to believe they can't rebound from 3.5 out and win it this year. I'm not worried right now, if it were the end of August, then I might start to worry.

You don't rebuild a team around Frank Thomas! Yes, he was/is a great player, but he is older and I don't know how many more years he can play, especially with injuries. The future of this team is on Rowand, Konerko, C Lee, Maggs.

Win1ForMe
07-28-2004, 10:39 PM
Konerko is under contract through the end of the 2005 season, and Everett has an option for next year. Carlos Lee is signed through 2007, as is Mark Buehrle.
That's incorrect on Carlos. He's signed through 2006, with an $8.5 M option or $.50M buyout. So he's only guaranteed one more full season.

And I actually disagree with the idea that retooling this team would be a difficult process, nothing could be farther from the truth. Kenny will have a lot of pieces to move and guys like Konerko and Lee could be moved very easily because of their short contracts and good production. If the Sox wanted, they could move Carlos and Garland to other teams for some cheap productive players, and then use the money saved in those deals to acquire an inexpensive hitter like Frank Cattalanotto and a good FA pitcher like Carl Pavano. And those two players would probably cost less than Lee and Garland.

RKMeibalane
07-28-2004, 10:41 PM
This group won the division 3 years ago, so there is no reason to believe they can't rebound from 3.5 out and win it this year. I'm not worried right now, if it were the end of August, then I might start to worry.

You don't rebuild a team around Frank Thomas! Yes, he was/is a great player, but he is older and I don't know how many more years he can play, especially with injuries. The future of this team is on Rowand, Konerko, C Lee, Maggs.
Both Maggs and Konerko may be gone by 2006. I don't think you can build around them, either. The Sox need to find a player like Carlos Beltran, and fast.

balboner
07-28-2004, 10:43 PM
The Sox need to be very careful with how they deal with Maggs now. His knee condition could turn very severe, and the Sox average payroll can't have a player that accounts for 25% of it on the DL for the rest of his career. I think it might be better to let Maggs move on with his career and let him sign with a team that can take a chance on a high priced injury-prone player.