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View Full Version : *Official* 7-28 Sox vs. Twins Post Game Thread


habibharu
07-27-2004, 02:00 PM
Valdez, btw is hitting .342. yeah but looks at his K's and BB's

idseer
07-27-2004, 02:03 PM
I don't. Maybe next year we can bring up Wilson Valdez. Hitting .241 just plain sucks. He is almost at Crede level. He can't move over a base runner if his life depended on it, and he cannot bunt either. He is home run or nothing. We have enough home run hitters on this team. We surely do not need Jose anymore. Valdez, btw is hitting .342.
he wasn't worth it last year! he's worth about half what he makes. that being said, i'd like him as a bench player who gets some serious playing time. either ph'ing or dh'ing.

SoxxoS
07-27-2004, 02:06 PM
Wait, wait...yep:

:threadblows:

Batting average...the most overrated stat in baseball. And we want to replace him with a 27 (?) year old bench player at best...Great idea.

Can we start concentrating on the ACTUAL White Sox problems...Valentin is the furthest from our problems.

MrRoboto83
07-27-2004, 02:10 PM
I think Jose is worth the money, he is a team leader and also a feared bat in the line up, ever notice how many pitching changes happen when Jose comes to the plate?

SoxxoS
07-27-2004, 02:11 PM
I don't think its that overrated. How many times this year has the leadoff man got on and Jose simply struck out? A lot. Hmmmm, when was the last time I saw that happen? Oh yeah, yesterday. He was also 0 for 4 btw. Way to go Jose, keep it up.
0-4 yesterday...I think we need a tad bit bigger sample size.

How many times has the leadoff man got on and Jose struck out? Not many, b/c lack of a leadoff hitter is ONE OF OUR KEY PROBLEMS. Our leadoff hitter doesn't get on base that much, so Jose can't strike out that much with a runner on.

sendimjoey
07-27-2004, 02:12 PM
If you don't like what Willie Harris does at the plate, you'll hate Valdez, from what little that I've read about him. Valdez doesn't hit the ball hard enough to break a pane of glass. Yes, Valentin is in a slump, but he won't be in one forever. He'll get it turned around.

habibharu
07-27-2004, 02:12 PM
0-4 yesterday...I think we need a tad bit bigger sample size.

How many times has the leadoff man got on and Jose struck out? Not many, b/c lack of a leadoff hitter is ONE OF OUR KEY PROBLEMS. Our leadoff hitter doesn't get on base that much, so Jose can't strike out that much with a runner on. hey you cant really blame willie that much. .353 OBP. and aaron's is .358. those are pretty decent numbers

idseer
07-27-2004, 02:18 PM
I think Jose is worth the money, he is a team leader and also a feared bat in the line up, ever notice how many pitching changes happen when Jose comes to the plate?
sure, but that's just because they know he's an automatic out against lefties.

MisterB
07-27-2004, 02:22 PM
I think Jose is worth the money, he is a team leader and also a feared bat in the line up, ever notice how many pitching changes happen when Jose comes to the plate?
Um..maybe that has more to do with his inability to hit lefties than his 'fearsome presence' at he plate.

bobj4400
07-27-2004, 02:24 PM
I think Jose is worth the money, he is a team leader and also a feared bat in the line up, ever notice how many pitching changes happen when Jose comes to the plate?
Yeah, the other team brings in a lefty who proceeds to strike him out on three pitches...

MrRoboto83
07-27-2004, 02:24 PM
Still he is still feared by right handers, Jose needs to lay of the 2nd pitches, he always swings. I think Jose is best placed 7th or 8th in the line up, and certainly after Paul Konerko, helps Pauly get better pitches I think

Dadawg_77
07-27-2004, 02:27 PM
You will be hard press to find the level of production Jose brings from anyone else at SS. When you find it, it is always more expensive the Jose is. That is why Jose is worth 5 million.

JohnBasedowYoda
07-27-2004, 02:29 PM
he is worth it, he get's late inning hits, good range. decent on the basepath.

hold2dibber
07-27-2004, 04:25 PM
I don't. Maybe next year we can bring up Wilson Valdez. Hitting .241 just plain sucks. He is almost at Crede level. He can't move over a base runner if his life depended on it, and he cannot bunt either. He is home run or nothing. We have enough home run hitters on this team. We surely do not need Jose anymore. Valdez, btw is hitting .342.
I'm not certain that Valentin is worth $5 million, but he's probably worth close to it (and he's a hell of a lot better than Valdez, for pete's sake). Right now, Jose is:

1st among AL shortstops in HRs
2nd among AL shortstops in RBIs
5th among AL shortstops in OPS
3rd among AL shortstops in SLG
5th among AL shortstops in Rs
5th among AL shortstops in TBs
1st among AL shortstops in zone rating
2nd among AL shortstops in range factor

His avg and obp suck, no question about it. But he's a good power hitter, particularly for a shortstop and is one of the only left handed hitting threats the Sox have. His defense is at least average (and, IMHO, above average), he plays hard every day, and he is, according to many sources, a consumate professional and positive influence in the clubhouse. He never should be in the line-up against left handed pitching, but he's a good guy to have on the team. I hope they extend his contract (but hopefully for a little less $ - maybe 2 years for a guaranteed total of $7.5 million, with another $1.5 million in incentives based upon PAs and/or games played).

Foulke29
07-27-2004, 04:33 PM
You know what, this guy has hit 20 HR or more every year that he's worn a White Sox uniform - and that's with injurys. A full healthy season from this guy could get us 30 HR - not just 30 HR, but some meaningful homeruns at clutch moments - not to mention he's the smartest runner on the team. I have never seen - in my lifetime someone as good as him on the basepaths.

I'll take his .250 BA. So long as you're not a table-setter, it's not what your average is, it's when your average is. Someone should post a stat of what his BA is A) with runners in scoring position; and B) when we're down by 3 or less runs.

Jose has something that makes others around him electric with energy. Not too many others on ANY team have that spark.

CWSGuy406
07-27-2004, 04:37 PM
Jose, IMHO, should be batting sixth after Konerko, not second. I'd like to see Jose in more of an RBI/HR position, with Rowand up in the number two spot.

Thoughts?

Foulke29
07-27-2004, 04:51 PM
Jose, IMHO, should be batting sixth after Konerko, not second. I'd like to see Jose in more of an RBI/HR position, with Rowand up in the number two spot.

Thoughts?
:gulp:
I'll drink to that!

Foulke29
07-28-2004, 03:48 PM
I am bringing this thread back.
Was that inappropriate.

Gee, Jose was trying to get something started.

fledgedrallycap
07-28-2004, 03:52 PM
I am bringing this thread back.
Wish you hadn't.

Frater Perdurabo
07-28-2004, 04:09 PM
Jose and Everett are the only left handed power hitters on the team. Jose is not the problem. He shares a shortcoming in common with several other Sox players = low batting average/low OBP. The absence of Maggs' .300 AVG. and Frank's OBP exposes the weaknesses.

The Sox still have enough power. What they lack is men on base. In this respect Jose is a lot like Crede. But he and Crede make the infield defense strong, which helps the pitchers.

What the Sox most need is Maggs' and Frank's OBP back. But even with them, the Sox need people to get on base for them to knock in. Even if both come back, the Sox still need a leadoff hitter because Harris is just not getting it done. Juan Pierre? Carl Carwford? Jason Kendall?

DoggPhood
07-28-2004, 04:12 PM
This loss was worse than the other two. Man, this sucks.

Foulke29
07-28-2004, 04:13 PM
I was wrong. Maybe he's not worth it... GEEZ! A stinking pop-up!

LASOXFAN
07-28-2004, 04:14 PM
Wow. that's all I can say. If it gets much worse than this then Adam Sandler would have to be starring in it.

Win1ForMe
07-28-2004, 04:15 PM
That's one of the worst games I have ever seen. I'm speechless.

soltrain21
07-28-2004, 04:15 PM
Bunch of losers.

DoggPhood
07-28-2004, 04:15 PM
This was Jose's fault. I hate to get on Jose's case, but that was the game right there.

MushMouth
07-28-2004, 04:16 PM
Other than losing a few more players to injury, this series couldn't have done more to ruin our season. Frankly, The reaction to the Hunter face plow nailed the coffin shut on the 2004 Sox.


No heart, No fight

idseer
07-28-2004, 04:16 PM
reminds me of the playoff series against seattle. we were outplayed, outhustled, OUTCOACHED and overmatched.

at least 4 moves in this game that were mistakes that literally cost us the game.

a shame.

CubsfansareDRUNK
07-28-2004, 04:16 PM
We should have won! Damn you Jose and Borchard!! :angry:

Nard
07-28-2004, 04:16 PM
And the nominees for worst play of the season:

- Crede throwing error
- Jose caught stealing
- Juan caught stealing
- Borchard GIDP
- Jose dropped ball

ode to veeck
07-28-2004, 04:17 PM
This was Jose's fault. I hate to get on Jose's case, but that was the game right there.

what happened, I had to go back to work and missed it

DoggPhood
07-28-2004, 04:17 PM
Well, that sucked, but the good news is that the Twins have a much tougher schedule... sigh.

RKMeibalane
07-28-2004, 04:18 PM
I don't want to hear a word out of Jose Valentin for the rest of the season. Not a single one.

ma_deuce
07-28-2004, 04:18 PM
:manos

"I'll take 5 million to strikeout, strand baseman, miss a line drive that costs us the game against the #1 team, and completely implode going into July."

Deadguy
07-28-2004, 04:18 PM
Except for Crede and Timo, everybody was pathetic!

idseer
07-28-2004, 04:18 PM
what happened, I had to go back to work and missed it
he ran us out of a big inning then commited the error that allowed the twins to win it ... that's all.

DaveIsHere
07-28-2004, 04:18 PM
JOSE owes us all BIG TIME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Nard
07-28-2004, 04:18 PM
Sorry, this was all Borchie Boy's fault.

Runner on third with less than 2 outs in the bottom of the 9th and you can't bring him in.

That's just bad baseball.

balz1472
07-28-2004, 04:18 PM
:angry: :angry: :angry: :angry: I have been saying this for 3 years! :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry:

Granted he may not be the only problem we have, but I put him up there with one of the worst. Make him a coach if he is so good in the clubhouse... he definitely does not deserve to be in the INF.

Put Uribe at SS and at least he'll catch the f'n ball. Today was a huge game... this could be the sign of the end to come.

Here's to watchin the Twinkies' lose in the ALDS in October.:gulp:

RKMeibalane
07-28-2004, 04:19 PM
what happened, I had to go back to work and missed it
Jones hit a pop-up into foul territory, behind third base. Valentin ran over to catch the ball, and then he dropped it.

kittle42
07-28-2004, 04:19 PM
This team has the same problems it had under Jerry Manual. Nothing ever seems to change. I am sick of it - and I am doing my reactionary not watching the team for a while. I just take it too seriously and need to concentrate on other things in life. I've had it.

Wealz
07-28-2004, 04:19 PM
2 games back in the loss column. As terrible as this loss was, it's vital that Guillen makes sure the team keeps things in perspective. The schedule tilts decidely in the Sox favor from this point on.

LuvSox
07-28-2004, 04:19 PM
The Sox just took the Last Train To Suckville. I don't see this game making Jose Valentin's career highlight reel.

ChiWhiteSox1337
07-28-2004, 04:19 PM
I hate to get this down when it's only July, but wow, it's frustrating. Today's game was unbelievable. I was waiting for Hawk to do his new "AND THIS BALL GAME IS...OVAH!!!!!" line when LTP was up to bat, and then he first pitch GIDP. How do the Twins do it?

OEO Magglio
07-28-2004, 04:19 PM
what happened, I had to go back to work and missed itHe dropped a pop up in foul territory that would have ended the inning, instead Jones gets a base hit to take the lead. I try to be as positive as anyone but this game was terrible, that's about as bad and as stupid as a team can play. There is still a long way to go and it's definitely not time to jump ship but this game hurt and was hard to watch.:angry:

CubsfansareDRUNK
07-28-2004, 04:19 PM
sigggghhhhhhh


i cant think about the twins now. We have to get over this sweep and keep trying harder. Lets go Sox!:sunshine:

idseer
07-28-2004, 04:20 PM
Sorry, this was all Borchie Boy's fault.

Runner on third with less than 2 outs in the bottom of the 9th and you can't bring him in.

That's just bad baseball.
absolutely disagree. borchard should never have been in that situation and/or he should never have been counted on to come thru. after all ... he ISN'T ANY GOOD!

this one is on jose, a veteran who played like a highschooler.

inta
07-28-2004, 04:20 PM
i don't care if these losers even make the playoffs. (which they won't)

they wont do crap.

no heart. no fire.


this crap happens EVERY YEAR... wake the F up kenny williams. implode this team. they're losers.

fuzzy_patters
07-28-2004, 04:21 PM
Except for Crede and Timo, everybody was pathetic!
Excuse me? If Crede fields a routine groundball, we win 4-3. Crede's error cost us every bit as much as Jose dropping that ball. At least Jose's drop was a difficult play.

Nard
07-28-2004, 04:21 PM
Time to stop paying attention to baseball for about a week or so.

Wealz
07-28-2004, 04:21 PM
Jones hit a pop-up into foul territory, behind third base. Valentin ran over to catch the ball, and then he dropped it.
He ran pretty far for it though. That said, he should have had it.

Dick Allen
07-28-2004, 04:21 PM
This is it, folks. I don't give a rat's butt if it's only July. This is a typical Sox giveaway in a crucial game of the season. It just so happens it occurred in July this year instead of September like last year. If you want to give me that BS that the sky is falling, well I've been watching the #$%&$# sky fall for 45 years now. If I'm wrong about this, you can all come back in two months and flame away at me. But I don't think so.

Aidan
07-28-2004, 04:22 PM
Twins in disguise...
http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/images/players/mugshot/ph_400021.jpghttp://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/images/players/mugshot/ph_123610.jpg

Frater Perdurabo
07-28-2004, 04:23 PM
Pathetic. A complete embarassment.

Kenny better at least try to get Jason Kendall in here to lead off and get on base. Ozzie better ream the team a new one. Walker better teach the "automatic outs" in the lineup (Uribe & Harris in particular) how to hit the opposite way and use the whole field.

The Sox need to treat every baserunner they get as precious. They need to find a way to get runners to score. If that means stealing second, bunting him to third and then a sac fly, so be it.

RKMeibalane
07-28-2004, 04:23 PM
:manos

(Singing) "...and we're free... free fallin'"

inta
07-28-2004, 04:23 PM
This is it, folks. I don't give a rat's butt if it's only July. This is a typical Sox giveaway in a crucial game of the season. It just so happens it occurred in July this year instead of September like last year. If you want to give me that BS that the sky is falling, well I've been watching the #$%&$# sky fall for 45 years now. If I'm wrong about this, you can all come back in two months and flame away at me. But I don't think so.

anyone who posts one of those stupid "the sky is falling" pictures needs to be punched in the nads. obviously they haven't followed the sox the past few years to know the sickening feeling of de ja vu going on the southside once again.

Foulke29
07-28-2004, 04:24 PM
This thread could have started in the 7th inning.

:angry:

Does anyone here want to sympathize that I have to pass this Sox fan curse thing down to my child that we're expecting?

Rocky Soprano
07-28-2004, 04:24 PM
:angry: :whiner:

Borchard and Valentin both need to get dragged around in the parking lot by a bus.

3Pete
07-28-2004, 04:24 PM
JOSE owes us all BIG TIME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
With all due respect, what does he owe you?

SoxxoS
07-28-2004, 04:24 PM
Time to stop paying attention to baseball for about a week or so.
I tell myself that, but there is nothing else to do. Plus, the Sox suck you back in.

We will win tomorrow and all the positive threads will start again.

On a related note, my very mature statement of the day is: Joe Borchard Sucks. Thank you. He isn't good. He had one decent season in the minors. He is nothing but a mental midget with athletic ability. He also has pictures of KW and another woman, b/c KW loves the guy for how bad he is.

Hangar18
07-28-2004, 04:25 PM
that was Brutal to listen to. Its not like they really put a beating on us.....
they just Ouplayed, Outran, Outcoached us. Thats all. this sucks

SoxxoS
07-28-2004, 04:25 PM
This thread could have started in the 7th inning.

:angry:

Does anyone here want to sympathize that I have to pass this Sox fan curse thing down to my child that we're expecting?
I might groom my future child St. Louis colors after this affair.

balboner
07-28-2004, 04:25 PM
Lets not let Ozzie get off the hook for this loss. It baffles me why he let Borchard stay in the game after ph in the 7th, but he took Rowand out in the same situation. Not only is rowand a much better hitter than Borchard, but he's also a terrific fielding outfielder. If Manuel was coaching this team, there would be a ton of people saying that he needs to be fired!

jfo go go sox
07-28-2004, 04:25 PM
Is it me or does this Sox team that played the last 4 games look similar to the team in Sept 2003 that just did not want the division. All the trades and all the sellouts still will not help this team to win. Where is the will to win? As a Sox fan, if they lose -- I'm alright with it IF they give their all and play with heart. After this series, they are as heartless as someone who breaks up with you on your birthday. I've seen more intensity at feeding time at the zoo than I see with this team...

PS - Borchard -- ovepaid for underplayed. Never has a clue in the box or chasing a can of corn. Would trade for a case of Falstaff and Hamms?
:gulp:

OK -- done venting:angry:

RKMeibalane
07-28-2004, 04:26 PM
God, please heal these men -----------------------------------> :hurt :maggs

The Sox obviously can't do it without them.

CubsfansareDRUNK
07-28-2004, 04:26 PM
I tell myself that, but there is nothing else to do. Plus, the Sox suck you back in.

We will win tomorrow and all the positive threads will start again.

On a related note, my very mature statement of the day is: Joe Borchard Sucks. Thank you. He isn't good. He had one decent season in the minors. He is nothing but a mental midget with athletic ability. He also has pictures of KW and another woman, b/c KW loves the guy for how bad he is.

"I get knocked down..But i get up again. Youre never gunna keep me down! I get knocked down but i get up again..youre never gunna keep me down!"

Aidan
07-28-2004, 04:27 PM
These 4 SAPs need to go to hell. They suck as bad as Borchard and Valenstache.

balboner
07-28-2004, 04:29 PM
Tomorrow's game doesn't look too easy against the Tigers. It's Schoeneweis against Johnson. It took a miracle comeback by the Sox last time to win this match-up, and thta was after the Tigers destroyed Scott.

AnkleSox
07-28-2004, 04:29 PM
With joses average dropping towards .200 and that game-losing play, i will boo him until he has at least a 5 game hitting streak with less than 2 strikeouts during the whole thing, and no errors. To bad Shingo has to be tagged with the loss and Jose can't.


No other team could possibly choke this bad except for the one on the north side. And i'm not even sure about that anymore.

Maybe i'm being overly pessimistic and maybe the sox will get hot for the rest of the season, but i'm not counting on it and i think i have every right to believe this team is only going downhill.

Mudville
07-28-2004, 04:29 PM
The tough thing about this game is that the Twins didn't win, so much as accepted the Sox loss. The errors and misplays really made the difference here. But this is what happens when you try to "force" Ozzieball. The Sox are not a bunting/base-stealing team, and the last few innings showed that. No matter how much fans buy into the myth of Ozzieball (Twinsball?) the fact is that the Sox need a few more high-OBP guys so that all the solo shots can turn into 2R or 3R HRs. Still, Minnesota can't rest too easily considering their schedule. This race is far from being over.

Cubsuck_a_lot
07-28-2004, 04:29 PM
its late in the season. the sox are (again) chasing the Twinkies for the division title. The line-up is as solid as it has ever been (on paper) even without the two most powerful hitters on the team. So, you would think that as the season begins to wind down, the players would ball up and start getting serious and focused on winning a division. So what the hell is going on?? why do i have to sit and watch them trip over their own pitching? why are they ALWAYS so hot and cold with their hitting?? I understand that players and teams go through slumps, but if we were really built for the playoffs and for winning a Series, the team wouldve stepped up as a whole, recognized their problems at this point and tried to turn things around. Why cant they stay hot? why is this always such an issue? Boston can stay hot, the Lou can stay hot, NY can stay hot, even philly and Atlanta can stay hot. Are these teams really that much different than ours? the answer is no. I always used to think that the problem was the managment. Shueler blew and Manuel was a waste of several seasons. I now see that it is probably the core of the team that is causing the problems. They are the ones that are supposed to set the pace of the game. Paulie is the only one coming through. If they cant do this, with a club of fantastic hitters and several great pitchers, then the team needs to be gutted. Keep Thomas, Paulie, Garcia, Burhle, and Shingo, and go from there. We (the fans) have supported them all season long (and in my case all 22 years of my freaking life) and all they can give us is a sweep by the twinkies, a great fundamental baseball club that year after year we boast are not as good of a club as we are. let them play out the season, see how it goes from there. but if they dont produce a Series Ring, GUT IT.

word to your mother

patbooyah
07-28-2004, 04:29 PM
This team has the same problems it had under Jerry Manual. Nothing ever seems to change. I am sick of it - and I am doing my reactionary not watching the team for a while. I just take it too seriously and need to concentrate on other things in life. I've had it.
i was thinking the exact same thing.

ChiWhiteSox1337
07-28-2004, 04:29 PM
Holy cow. 83 people viewing this thread and growing. This must be a record. :wired:

The Wimperoo
07-28-2004, 04:30 PM
This team has the same problems it had under Jerry Manual. Nothing ever seems to change. I am sick of it - and I am doing my reactionary not watching the team for a while. I just take it too seriously and need to concentrate on other things in life. I've had it.
Same here, its break time for a little bit

bartmanisgod
07-28-2004, 04:30 PM
Excuse me? If Crede fields a routine groundball, we win 4-3. Crede's error cost us every bit as much as Jose dropping that ball. At least Jose's drop was a difficult play.
yea but Crede didn't get caught stealing with 2 on and no out! Crede also went 3-4 to make up for his error! What did Jose do offensively today.... ZERO!

Juck Fose!

RKMeibalane
07-28-2004, 04:30 PM
Was anyone besides me annoyed by the fact that Thorne and Justice couldn't pronounce Borchard's name properly? More ignorance on the part of ESPN where the Sox are concerned.

Baby Fisk
07-28-2004, 04:30 PM
My god, my god. I feel like I've just been mugged.

At least we can find solace in the fact that the Twins schedule is much harder. They will have to play teams far better than the Sox. :angry:

An appearance by Lord Vader would make me feel better here.

kcsportscaster
07-28-2004, 04:31 PM
Well, this series sucked!!!! I'm sorry, but Borchard should NOT have been up in the bottom of the ninth at all!!!! What in the freakin' hell was wrong with pinch hitting for him in that situation with runners at first and third with one out????:angry: As for Valentin, his stupidity on the bases in the seventh as well as that dropped pop-up cost DA SOX the game, plain and simple!!!! THAT BASTARD BORCHARD HAS GOT TO GO!!!! I don't care what I said in my post last night!!!! HE HAS GOT TO FREAKIN' GO!!!!:angry:

I want K-W to get Kendall AND either Benson or Kip Wells back from the Pirates in exchange for not only Davis, but that pile of garbage Borchard as well as Garland, damn it!!!!

I hope to God that this sweep by the Twinkies gives this team a swift kick in the ass and motivates them to play much better baseball, and it better start this weekend against the Tigers!!!!

nlentz88
07-28-2004, 04:33 PM
Kenny Williams most likely was watching this game as usual. I can't help but think that he has a decision to make. With the trade deadline three days away, he needs to decide if this team is worth investing in, or whether its time to pull the plug.


Yes, yes. I know. There's still two more months of the season to play, and a lot can happen between now and game 162. But playing 27 games in a row in August without a day off is going to make it tough to regain the 3.5 games we trail the Twins. Therefore KW needs to either:

A) Start thinking about next year. Make resigning/acquiring youth a priority.

or

B) Make a blockbuster trade for Johnson or Beltran and commit this team to winning it all.

The clock is ticking, Kenny. As they say, "Crap or get off the pot."

Dick Allen
07-28-2004, 04:33 PM
Well, this series sucked!!!! I'm sorry, but Borchard should NOT have been up in the bottom of the ninth at all!!!! What in the freakin' hell was wrong with pinch hitting for him in that situation with runners at first and third with one out????:angry: As for Valentin, his stupidity on the bases in the seventh as well as that dropped pop-up cost DA SOX the game, plain and simple!!!! THAT BASTARD BORCHARD HAS GOT TO GO!!!! I don't care what I said in my post last night!!!! HE HAS GOT TO FREAKIN' GO!!!!:angry:

I want K-W to get Kendall AND either Benson or Kip Wells back from the Pirates in exchange for not only Davis, but that pile of garbage Borchard as well as Garland, damn it!!!!

I hope to God that this sweep by the Twinkies gives this team a swift kick in the ass and motivates them to play much better baseball, and it better start this weekend against the Tigers!!!!The first game of the series should have given them a swift kick in the ass. Nice response on their part.

TomParrish79
07-28-2004, 04:33 PM
Wake up people, we are not getting kendall so please shut up about him. And even if we did, whats he gonna do?? Bat 1st and 2nd in the lineup??

Frank Thomas and Maggs were the two that makes this machine work. They are gone, and we cant expect Paulie, Carlos, and Carl to pick up the slack for the other 6 guys on the team.

Right now we have 3 Major League players surrounded by crap. And a good pitching staff that now knows if they give up more than 2 runs, they will probably lose.

Rowand
Uribe
Harris
Borchard (I will be my life that this guy will never be any good)

These guys are not gonna get it done.


Anyway I am fed up and aggrivated and I am usually a happy go lucky fan. So like someone else said, its time to take a few weeks off from the sox and from here, so you guys take it easy.

michned
07-28-2004, 04:33 PM
anyone who posts one of those stupid "the sky is falling" pictures needs to be punched in the nads. obviously they haven't followed the sox the past few years to know the sickening feeling of de ja vu going on the southside once again.
That's a key point. A lot of people are saying, "It's still early..." NONSENSE! The core of this team has been together for several years and they don't have what it takes. Don't look at the past three months, look at the past three or four seasons. Aside from the "Seven Glorious Days" in June, 2000, the same thing keeps happening.

As for Ozzie, yeah, the guy is a rookie manager and he makes mistakes but I am in favor of the "grinder" approach by trading power for speed and good baseball instinct. Let's not judge him now but judge him when he gets the kind of team he wants to manage (small ball, if it ever happens).

-Ed

RKMeibalane
07-28-2004, 04:34 PM
An appearance by Lord Vader would make me feel better here.
http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/daver/darth.jpg

*Breathing*

Mickster
07-28-2004, 04:34 PM
No words, just......

:chunks

balboner
07-28-2004, 04:34 PM
I have to completely disagree with you on something you say. To say that this lineup is as complete as it has ever been is flat wrong. When your RF, 2B, SS, 3B, and SS are below average hitters (except for Jose's homers), that is not a complete lineup. Hell, just look at our team at the endo of last year. The hitting was way better than it is this year. Not much you can do with the injuries.

Iron Dragon
07-28-2004, 04:35 PM
What really sucks is that the sweep we had in Minnesota is now nullified. Please let us at least split in Det.

cheeses_h_rice
07-28-2004, 04:35 PM
I've got a lot of magazines to catch up on, and TV shows I've TiVo'd. Plus I wanted to get down to Millennium Park and check out The Bean.

Looks like the perfect time to start doing all this other stuff, and back off watching this bunch of uninspired lazy players who wouldn't know a good opportunity if it ripped their nose off.

chisoxfan79
07-28-2004, 04:35 PM
Look everybody it really isn't that bad. Look at the numbers this year the road team has dominated the series this year the Sox are 6-1 at the dome and the Twins are 5-1 at the cell this year and the Sox are still winning the season series this year. Hopefully Kenny can make a few moves because this lineup is crap everybody is swinging for the fences.:bandance:

fuzzy_patters
07-28-2004, 04:36 PM
Why is everyone blaming Valentin and Borchard exclusively? They played a big part, but this one was a total team effort. Add in any parts I missed, but here is a rehash of what cost us this game for those that missed it.

Loaiza-refuses to pitch inside and causes us to fall behind early.

Crede- with first and third and one out, lets a routine double play ball go between the wickets giving the Twins a free run.

7th INNING of HELL:angry:
Down 4-3 Valentin and Uribe reach for 1st and 2nd

Crede fouls off a very buntable ball:angry:

Valentin, who was already in scoring position, gets caught stealing third:angry:

After Uribe gets caught stealing, which didn't bother me because we needed that runner in scoring position, the next four batters reach tying the score and loading the bases.

Carlos Lee tries to swing from his heels trying to hit a grand slam and strikes out ending the inning, but a single would have given us a 2 run lead!!!!!:angry:

Bottom 9
1st and 3rd with one out and Borchard GIDP!!!:angry:

Top 10
1st and 3rd with 2 outs, Valentin drops a foul pop-up down the left field line that would have ended the game. Jones singles the next pitch giving the Twins the lead and eventual win!:angry:

UnF'ing believable!

RKMeibalane
07-28-2004, 04:36 PM
I can just hear Ken Williams now...

:KW

"This loss was Frank Thomas' fault. If he had been on the bench acting as a decoy, we might have been able to scare Joe Nathan into making a mistake with Everett. This is the kind of selfish behavior that I won't have on my team."

Lip Man 1
07-28-2004, 04:36 PM
A soon as Valentin dropped the ball I said 'game over...' That's the luck of the White Sox.

All I can say is that those folks who keep telling everyone about how hard the Twins schedule is damn well better be right.

Lip

idseer
07-28-2004, 04:38 PM
ozzie doesn't seem to learn. i am no longer sure ozzie will make a really good manager. his spirit is good for the team no doubt. but he keeps making really bad player moves. does he still not know what his players are and are not capable of?

Aidan
07-28-2004, 04:38 PM
Excuse me guys, I'm off to commit suicide with Hawk...

South Side
07-28-2004, 04:39 PM
Joe Borchard proved that he is not ready to be up here yet. All he had to do was fly out to win the game... let's count how many times he flys out in the next week. :angry: It's not over... but watching them is painful right now.

RKMeibalane
07-28-2004, 04:39 PM
A soon as Valentin dropped the ball I said 'game over...' That's the luck of the White Sox.

All I can say is that those folks who keep telling everyone about how hard the Twins schedule is damn well better be right.

Lip
Believe it or not, I actually agree with you. The Sox have been terrible this week, and unless the Twins start losing games, they may find themselves slipping farther and farther behind Minnesota. I hope Ozzie is yelling at the team right, because they deserve it. The last three days were filled with uninspired baseball from a team that needed to win this series.

The season isn't over by a longshot, but the Sox need to get it in gear. Otherwise, it won't matter if Frank and Maggs come back, because the Sox will be too far behind by then.

idseer
07-28-2004, 04:40 PM
Right now we have 3 Major League players surrounded by crap.
excellent line! :smile:

KingXerxes
07-28-2004, 04:41 PM
A soon as Valentin dropped the ball I said 'game over...' That's the luck of the White Sox.

All I can say is that those folks who keep telling everyone about how hard the Twins schedule is damn well better be right.

Lip
I agree Lip. The injuries to Thomas and Ordonez have exposed how thin the roster is, and now methinks the bullpen is about to crack.

Cubsuck_a_lot
07-28-2004, 04:41 PM
And i know what you mean, but the issue of a "complete lineup" really is relative. at the beginning of the season Uribe, Harris, Valentin, carlos all were above average hitters, proving that they can do it. You cant deny that if these guys were playing at their full potential we would be unreal because we have seen how these guys can play together, and that is what i am referring to. we know how these guys can play together, not just "oh, that guy isnt playing his full potential", because we truly have seen what they can do. isnt that valid to be deemed as a complete lineup? i know it isnt perfect, but it makes sense for K-dub to make few changes in the line-up because we have all seen this and can say that it truly is a great lineup. when we have 10 run games, the whole team produces. just because their over-all numbers dont match doesnt mean the line-up isnt as complete as it can be. dont be a number watcher.

THE_HOOTER
07-28-2004, 04:42 PM
The White Sox have no future in their farm system to bank on at all.

With that being the case, we could be looking at a prolonged losing stretch.


Winning now and making the playoffs is necessary in order to keep raising the payroll.

Those mid-season trades and years of horrible drafting are catching up to the Sox.

Back up the truck or add on is my point. It makes no sense to continue on with Timo, Willie, Uribe, Burke, all out there most days.

It wont get it done.

soltrain21
07-28-2004, 04:42 PM
ozzie doesn't seem to learn. i am no longer sure ozzie will make a really good manager. his spirit is good for the team no doubt. but he keeps making really bad player moves. does he still not know what his players are and are not capable of?

They are capable of popping out. Look what the Twins can do...they can all bunt, moves guys over.

Sox can't do that, and that is not Ozzie's fault.

RKMeibalane
07-28-2004, 04:43 PM
ozzie doesn't seem to learn. i am no longer sure ozzie will make a really good manager. his spirit is good for the team no doubt. but he keeps making really bad player moves. does he still not know what his players are and are not capable of?
I think the problem has more to with the fact that Ozzie doesn't have the players who can do what he wants to do with this team. The Sox have too many guys on their roster who can't excute.

The Sox have one player who understands the strike zone (Frank Thomas).

The Sox have one player who has the ability to steal bases consistently (Willie Harris).

The Sox have one player who is capable of playing Gold Glove-caliber defense (Joe Crede).

This needs to change, and soon. The blame lies with JR. He needs to sell.

OEO Magglio
07-28-2004, 04:45 PM
I think the problem has more to with the fact that Ozzie doesn't have the players who can do what he wants to do with this team. The Sox have too many guys on their roster who can't excute.

The Sox have one player who has the ability to steal bases consistently (Willie Harris). I would actually say Rowand is a better base stealer right now then Willie is but I agree with you about ozzie and the players.

nlentz88
07-28-2004, 04:45 PM
At least Bears training camp is starting.


I'm hoping football will help distract us if the Sox continue to flush away their playoff aspirations.

jfo go go sox
07-28-2004, 04:46 PM
Well, I had something inspiring to thread about -- but forget get it.

I think I need to drink and know that this is just a game and my lot in life as a White Sox fan. :gulp: :gulp: :gulp:

RKMeibalane
07-28-2004, 04:48 PM
If things keep going the way they are, I'm going to start hoping that Frank comes back, but only so he can reach the twenty-homer mark. That sounds really bad, but it's true. The Sox are hard to watch right now.

idseer
07-28-2004, 04:49 PM
I think the problem has more to with the fact that Ozzie doesn't have the players who can do what he wants to do with this team.
but he has to play what he DOES have to their best capabilities. do you think borchard should have been in the game and aaron on the bench at that point?
I don't.

Mickster
07-28-2004, 04:52 PM
I actually wouldn't mind if KW were to go into the clubouse and start flipping over tables.....

idseer
07-28-2004, 04:52 PM
i am also now concerned about attendance. think about it. the really good fans in HERE are ready to forget em. how will the casual fan react to this showing against the twins. they came out to see some good ball and left unsatisfied.

Foulke You
07-28-2004, 04:53 PM
A soon as Valentin dropped the ball I said 'game over...' That's the luck of the White Sox.

All I can say is that those folks who keep telling everyone about how hard the Twins schedule is damn well better be right.

Lip
I was right with you there Lip. As soon as Valentin dropped the ball, I said "Here is where they take the lead." and sure enough, as usual, our boys never fail to deliver on misery.:whiner:

balboner
07-28-2004, 04:53 PM
By no means am I judging the Sox players by their numbers. By watching the games and the at-bats, you can tell that Willie, Timo, Uribe, Alomar, Davis, and sometimes Valentin and Crede are not difficult outs. However, compare them with someone like Lew Ford, who will probably end up hitting about .285 at the end of the year. That's not great, but he's still a tough out every at-bat cause he'll use the entire field. As hawk says, it's all about being dangerous at the plate. The only thing dangerous about Willie Harris right now is that he's killing all the grass between home and the 2B.

Foulke29
07-28-2004, 04:54 PM
I actually wouldn't mind if KW were to go onto the clubouse and start flipping over tables.....
I wouldn't mind going into the club house and flipping over tables. Hell, I'm at work and feel the urge to do so right now.

KingXerxes
07-28-2004, 04:55 PM
I think Jose is worth the money, he is a team leader and also a feared bat in the line up, ever notice how many pitching changes happen when Jose comes to the plate?If Jose Valentin is really the team leader then that is a huge indictment of his ability to lead.

I will never understand why this guy always gets a pass with so many White Sox fans due to the fact that he is "the heart and soul" of the clubhouse. I've got news for you, this team has been lacking "heart and soul" for quite some time now. Maybe he looks the part to some of you guys out there, but man - I think he should have been moved a few years ago.

I contend Valentin is the problem, not the solution.

RKMeibalane
07-28-2004, 04:55 PM
but he has to play what he DOES have to their best capabilities. do you think borchard should have been in the game and aaron on the bench at that point?
I don't.
I agree that Rowand should have been in the game, but until we actually hear what Ozzie was thinking, I'm not going to say anything one way or the other. If I can at least understand what he was thinking, I might be willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.

Dan H
07-28-2004, 04:56 PM
That's a key point. A lot of people are saying, "It's still early..." NONSENSE! The core of this team has been together for several years and they don't have what it takes. Don't look at the past three months, look at the past three or four seasons. Aside from the "Seven Glorious Days" in June, 2000, the same thing keeps happening.

As for Ozzie, yeah, the guy is a rookie manager and he makes mistakes but I am in favor of the "grinder" approach by trading power for speed and good baseball instinct. Let's not judge him now but judge him when he gets the kind of team he wants to manage (small ball, if it ever happens).

-Ed
I agree with the first paragraph. The core of this team has been together since 1999 with a few added in 2000 and 2001. Did anything happen from 01-04 to convince us that this team is of World Series caliber? Not in my book. They have been a slightly above .500 club. Look at the past week. Win two against Cleveland and then two more against Detroit. Now they have lost four straight. To say they are streaky is an understatement. And I don't want to hear about injuries. They have had Thomas and Ordonez for some time and all they have to show for it is one division title and three playoff losses. It is time to stop kidding ourselves.

Baby Fisk
07-28-2004, 04:57 PM
i am also now concerned about attendance. think about it. the really good fans in HERE are ready to forget em. how will the casual fan react to this showing against the twins. they came out to see some good ball and left unsatisfied.It seems this team always blows up in front of huge crowds. What the hell is wrong with these guys? Seriously, I'm sickened by these last 3 games. Is this a championship calibre club or a bunch of midgets? :(:

Wealz
07-28-2004, 04:59 PM
I actually wouldn't mind if KW were to go into the clubouse and start flipping over tables.....If flipping over tables puts Ordonez and Thomas in the lineup tomorrow I'm all for it. Otherwise it's grandstanding.

Mickster
07-28-2004, 04:59 PM
If flipping over tables puts Ordonez and Thomas in the lineup tomorrow I'm all for it. Otherwise it's grandstanding.
Grandstanding or trying to light a fire????

Lip Man 1
07-28-2004, 05:01 PM
Dan:

As usual you make a lot of sense. Looks like the only thing that might make August interesting is reading your new book! :smile:

As I and others have been saying for a long time, the Sox bench has done a good job in a limited role but when they have had to play more then normal due to the two injuries, they just can't produce.

That's the way it is folks, you can't get a hundred million dollars worth of talent on a 65 million dollar budget. I guess I don't understand what some fans expect.

Lip

deady43
07-28-2004, 05:03 PM
damn this was a hard one to lose

fuzzy_patters
07-28-2004, 05:05 PM
I agree with the first paragraph. The core of this team has been together since 1999 with a few added in 2000 and 2001. Did anything happen from 01-04 to convince us that this team is of World Series caliber? Not in my book. They have been a slightly above .500 club. Look at the past week. Win two against Cleveland and then two more against Detroit. Now they have lost four straight. To say they are streaky is an understatement. And I don't want to hear about injuries. They have had Thomas and Ordonez for some time and all they have to show for it is one division title and three playoff losses. It is time to stop kidding ourselves.Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! Finally a voice or reason. Some people here need to get their noses out of Bill James's crack and realize that baseball is not played on your calculator. I do not care what kind of numbers these hitters have put up, or how many runs score we have averaged per year since 2000. This team has not been any good since 2000 as evidenced by the zero playoff appearances since then. The Minnesotta Twins have been showing us the right way to play baseball for 2+ years now, and some people are too blind to see it. It is time to get some speed, defense, and pitching!:angry:

Wealz
07-28-2004, 05:05 PM
Grandstanding or trying to light a fire????
Grandstanding. Fire ain't the problem.

idseer
07-28-2004, 05:06 PM
Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! Finally a voice or reason. Some people here need to get their noses out of Bill James's crack and realize that baseball is not played on your calculator. I do not care what kind of numbers these hitters have put up, or how many runs score we have averaged per year since 2000. This team has not been any good since 2000 as evidenced by the zero playoff appearances since then. The Minnesotta Twins have been showing us the right way to play baseball for 2+ years now, and some people are too blind to ignore it. It is time to get some speed, defense, and pitching!:angry:
and stones would be nice too. :smile:

South Side
07-28-2004, 05:08 PM
Keep all your stupid, sky is falling, white flag, this team sucks, this team is a bunch of losers who will never win posts in here and stop being so obnoxious for those of us who know how badly this series hurt us but are intelligent enough to know that anything can happen and this is not the end of the season (or the world). :angry:

RKMeibalane
07-28-2004, 05:09 PM
Valentin isn't worth five turds. I won't be the least bit sorry if he's gone after this season. Let Uribe play short.

Baby Fisk
07-28-2004, 05:09 PM
Keep all your stupid, sky is falling, white flag, this team sucks, this team is a bunch of losers who will never win posts in here and stop being so obnoxious for those of us who know how badly this series hurt us but are intelligent enough to know that anything can happen and this is not the end of the season (or the world). :angry:
You're right. Let's go back to mourning the Olivo trade.

pudge
07-28-2004, 05:10 PM
Keep all your stupid, sky is falling, white flag, this team sucks, this team is a bunch of losers who will never win posts in here and stop being so obnoxious for those of us who know how badly this series hurt us but are intelligent enough to know that anything can happen and this is not the end of the season (or the world). :angry:
Wow, a bit touchy huh? It's interesting that those people bother you so much... maybe because it's starting to feel like there's a tad bit of truth to them??

RKMeibalane
07-28-2004, 05:11 PM
If Jose Valentin is really the team leader then that is a huge indictment of his ability to lead.

I will never understand why this guy always gets a pass with so many White Sox fans due to the fact that he is "the heart and soul" of the clubhouse. I've got news for you, this team has been lacking "heart and soul" for quite some time now. Maybe he looks the part to some of you guys out there, but man - I think he should have been moved a few years ago.

I contend Valentin is the problem, not the solution.
I agree. Why does everyone think that Jose is such a great teammate and leader? All I ever hear him doing is ripping into other players (Frank Thomas) or making comments that other teams put on their clubhouse bulletin board. The man isn't a leader. He's just an idiot with a big mouth.

HITMEN OF 77
07-28-2004, 05:12 PM
Losing 3 to the Twins was bad, but on the bright side, were only 3 1/2 out and the Twins play Oak, Ana, Bos while we play Det, KC and Cle. We'll be there in the end, atop the division that is.

PaleHoseGeorge
07-28-2004, 05:12 PM
Keep all your stupid, sky is falling, white flag, this team sucks, this team is a bunch of losers who will never win posts in here and stop being so obnoxious for those of us who know how badly this series hurt us but are intelligent enough to know that anything can happen and this is not the end of the season (or the world). :angry:
We understand your sentiments, however this is why we created the post-game thread for the Clubhouse and the post-loss therapy thread for the Roadhouse, too. That's why your post was moved here.

It's the moderators' job to keep the clubhouse tidy.
:cool:

South Side
07-28-2004, 05:13 PM
You're right. Let's go back to mourning the Olivo trade.
Who said anything about mourning the trade? I liked Olivo and I am too lazy to change my sig. a month after the fact. Nice try though.

South Side
07-28-2004, 05:14 PM
Wow, a bit touchy huh? It's interesting that those people bother you so much... maybe because it's starting to feel like there's a tad bit of truth to them??

I'm a bit touchy b/c it's dissapointing to see your team lose pitifully and it's like salt in a wound to come here and read all these posts saying that we're finished when they really have no idea how the season could turn out...

Wealz
07-28-2004, 05:15 PM
Valentin isn't worth five turds. I won't be the least bit sorry if he's gone after this season. Let Uribe play short.
Uribe at short might work out okay -- with Scott Rolen at third.

South Side
07-28-2004, 05:16 PM
We understand your sentiments, however this is why we created the post-game thread for the Clubhouse and the post-loss therapy thread for the Roadhouse, too. That's why your post was moved here.

It's the moderators' job to keep the clubhouse tidy.
:cool:
I know, I am sorry... but it's killing me to keep reading all this crap. I know, I know I shouldn't be reading it if it bothers me so much but it's too late, I already have.... and after a tough loss it takes up about 95% of all posts. I will leave it to mods in the future though, you do a great job.

RKMeibalane
07-28-2004, 05:17 PM
Uribe at short might work out okay -- with Scott Rolen at third.
The Rolen part should be in deep pink. It would take a miracle to get someone like that to come to the South Side.

Mudville
07-28-2004, 05:17 PM
Losing 3 to the Twins was bad, but on the bright side, were only 3 1/2 out and the Twins play Oak, Ana, Bos while we play Det, KC and Cle.

This is definitely the Sox window, despite the setback here. The Twins also have NY right after those teams. If the Sox haven't narrowed the gap by mid-August, I'll be ready to concede the pennant to Minnesota, but not yet. Maybe KW will surprise us all yet.

RKMeibalane
07-28-2004, 05:17 PM
:tomatoaward

kjhanson
07-28-2004, 05:19 PM
Keep all your stupid, sky is falling, white flag, this team sucks, this team is a bunch of losers who will never win posts in here and stop being so obnoxious for those of us who know how badly this series hurt us but are intelligent enough to know that anything can happen and this is not the end of the season (or the world). :angry:

No kidding. This was a tough loss to swallow. Rather than overgeneralize and assume this is how the rest of the year is going to go, why don't we wait and see what happens in the next series and the series after that. As fans, that's all we can do, and it sucks. Instead of saying "woe is us", let's move on to the next series and trust that the men who run our ballclub are as passionate as we are about winning, and that they'll do everything in their power to keep our focus for the last 70 games and pull out a division title.

Baby Fisk
07-28-2004, 05:21 PM
Who said anything about mourning the trade? I liked Olivo and I am too lazy to change my sig. a month after the fact. Nice try though.Dude, I'm totally on your side about the whiny threads. I hate seeing crap about rebuilding this team from scratch and waving the flag. It just doesn't help to start preachy threads, either. That's how we ended up in this thread. Today was a really bad loss, and this was a brutal series, and everyone's nerves are a little frayed. Damn you White Sox, you will send me to an early grave. :angry:

kjhanson
07-28-2004, 05:22 PM
Losing 3 to the Twins was bad, but on the bright side, were only 3 1/2 out and the Twins play Oak, Ana, Bos while we play Det, KC and Cle. We'll be there in the end, atop the division that is.

Meanwhile, we trail Oakland and Boston in the wildcard. That means for 7 games, either the team we're chasing for the division title or the team we're chasing for the wildcard, is going to lose. Perfect opportunity to get games back. This season is FAR from over.

Paulwny
07-28-2004, 05:23 PM
The thing that really bothered me was that Jose quite. So you stray too far off 2nd, damit stay in a run down so the runner on 1st can advance to 2nd., don't feel sorry for yourself, THINK !

OEO Magglio
07-28-2004, 05:24 PM
Wow, a bit touchy huh? It's interesting that those people bother you so much... maybe because it's starting to feel like there's a tad bit of truth to them??C'mon now, we're 2 games back in the loss column, we have the most aggressive gm in baseball with the trading deadline approaching, the sky isn't falling yet, this loss is real tough to swallow but this team is to good to be this bad. I'll say in a week or two we're back in first place and all will be right in the world.:smile:

freshdill
07-28-2004, 05:24 PM
Yep, Valentin dropped a crucial pop fly today.
And Crede made a crucial error.
And Konerko and Lee were a combined 0-fer.
And Loaiza gave up home runs like he was pitching in a little league field.
And Borchard hit into a double play with the winning run on third and one out.
And Takatsu walked the leadoff hitter in the 10th.

Blaming today's loss on Valentin is asinine. Of course, saying he's not a hugely valuable member of the team is asinine, too, so the asininity factor of this entire discussion is going through the roof.

Win1ForMe
07-28-2004, 05:26 PM
Let Uribe play short.
Let's not say things we may regret later.

RKMeibalane
07-28-2004, 05:26 PM
The thing that really bothered me was that Jose quite. So you stray too far off 2nd, damit stay in a run down so the runner on 1st can advance to 2nd., don't feel sorry for yourself, THINK !
Feeling sorry for themselves is what the Sox do best.

South Side
07-28-2004, 05:27 PM
Dude, I'm totally on your side about the whiny threads. I hate seeing crap about rebuilding this team from scratch and waving the flag. It just doesn't help to start preachy threads, either. That's how we ended up in this thread. Today was a really bad loss, and this was a brutal series, and everyone's nerves are a little frayed. Damn you White Sox, you will send me to an early grave. :angry:

I agree, but my point is the types of threads I was referring to makes everything a million times worse.

RKMeibalane
07-28-2004, 05:27 PM
Let's not say things we may regret later.
It's better than the alternative...

:hitless

"I have returned to my kingdom!"

Baby Fisk
07-28-2004, 05:31 PM
I agree, but my point is the types of threads I was referring to makes everything a million times worse.No, it makes it 10 million times worse! These clods won't learn until they become permanent Roadhouse guests.

Okay, let's leave this bickering and focus our rage at the Tigers tomorrow. :cool:

Foulke29
07-28-2004, 05:34 PM
The core of this team has been together since 1999 with a few added in 2000 and 2001.
I think you forget one thing about the core of this team.

2000:

Sirotka
Parque
Baldwin
Eldred
Buehrle/Garland/Wells

Bullpen:

Lowe
Simas
Wunsch
Howry
Foulke

2004:

Loaiza
Buehrle
Garland
Schoeneweis
?????/But Garcia now

Adkins
Cotts
Jackson
Politte
Marte Takatsu

I'd say that's a pretty significant change - even more so in the bullpen.

habibharu
07-28-2004, 05:37 PM
no doubt about this game... ozzie screwed it up. you CANNNOT have guys like borchard batting with the game on the line. :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry:

dickallen15
07-28-2004, 05:37 PM
I think Jose is worth the money, he is a team leader and also a feared bat in the line up, ever notice how many pitching changes happen when Jose comes to the plate?Pitching changes occur because he cannot hit LHP. He is almost an automatic out. Occassionally he will run into one, but against LHP he hits like an NL pitcher.

dickallen15
07-28-2004, 05:40 PM
The thing that really bothered me was that Jose quite. So you stray too far off 2nd, damit stay in a run down so the runner on 1st can advance to 2nd., don't feel sorry for yourself, THINK !
He was much closer to 2nd base than 3rd when the catcher was holding the ball. He easily could have gotten back to 2nd. I believe he saw Koskie in for the bunt and didn't believe he could get back to cover 3rd. He wasn't hung up. I don't know if Hawk said he was, but I was at the game in the club level with a great view. It was basically a delayed steal attempt. A very stupid attempt.

dickallen15
07-28-2004, 05:43 PM
I agree. Why does everyone think that Jose is such a great teammate and leader? All I ever hear him doing is ripping into other players (Frank Thomas) or making comments that other teams put on their clubhouse bulletin board. The man isn't a leader. He's just an idiot with a big mouth.
Great leaders don't go hitless in the biggest series of the season. Or make a bad baserunning decision that cost the team a big inning. Or drop a routine pop up to get his team out of a jam. He is what he is. I just hope after today's blunder, people stop writing that his errors never hurt the Sox. That's a load of you know what.

maurice
07-28-2004, 05:44 PM
Jose is not the problem. . . . The Sox still have enough power. What they lack is men on base. In this respect Jose is a lot like Crede.
While you argue that he's not "the problem," you concede that he typifies the problem. The big differences between Valentin (.303 OBP) and guys like Uribe (.322 OBP), Harris (.353 OBP), and Crede (.295 OBP) are their ages and their salaries. Uribe, Harris, and Crede should improve, but it doesn't really cost the Sox anything to cut them loose if they fail to pan out. Valentin will be 36 next year, makes $5 million, and is asking for a multi-year deal.

I'm afraid his 0-for-Minnesota clutch hitting and advanced base-running skills don't quite make up the difference.

Wealz
07-28-2004, 05:48 PM
While you argue that he's not "the problem," you concede that he typifies the problem. The big differences between Valentin (.303 OBP) and guys like Uribe (.322 OBP), Harris (.353 OBP), and Crede (.295 OBP) are their ages and their salaries. Uribe, Harris, and Crede should improve, but it doesn't really cost the Sox anything to cut them loose if they fail to pan out. Valentin will be 36 next year, makes $5 million, and is asking for a multi-year deal.

I'm afraid his 0-for-Minnesota clutch hitting and advanced base-running skills don't quite make up the difference.
And a better option at short for '05 would be . . . ?

Paulwny
07-28-2004, 05:48 PM
He was much closer to 2nd base than 3rd when the catcher was holding the ball. He easily could have gotten back to 2nd. I believe he saw Koskie in for the bunt and didn't believe he could get back to cover 3rd. He wasn't hung up. I don't know if Hawk said he was, but I was at the game in the club level with a great view. It was basically a delayed steal attempt. A very stupid attempt.
This could be, but after seeing he'd be out by 10 ft he should have gotten into a run down. I think that a lot of guys on this team should be given a baseball IQ test with all running blunders which have occurred over the last 4 yrs.

valposoxfan
07-28-2004, 05:50 PM
Look everybody it really isn't that bad. Look at the numbers this year the road team has dominated the series this year the Sox are 6-1 at the dome and the Twins are 5-1 at the cell this year and the Sox are still winning the season series this year. Hopefully Kenny can make a few moves because this lineup is crap everybody is swinging for the fences.:bandance:
It's not really that bad? I beg to differ. We are ahead of them head to head yet we sit 3.5 games back, the most amount of games we've been out of first place in nearly three months. That is a matter for concern.

LongLiveFisk
07-28-2004, 05:51 PM
Well I'm sure I will have a sore throat tomorrow after screaming all day sitting in the left-center field bleachers. I'm not real thrilled right now with Valentin and Borchard, to say the least, but there were other things I saw that were disturbing as well (Esteban, without a pitch above 88mph, effectively throwing BP to Twins hitters, for instance). :angry:

And speaking of BP, that reminds me of the only positive for me being at this game. The homerun ball I caught in my glove during BP!

dickallen15
07-28-2004, 05:52 PM
And a better option at short for '05 would be . . . ?There will be a lot of available shortstops this winter.

freshdill
07-28-2004, 05:53 PM
Good lord. Fine, Jose made a terrible baserunning play today. He is, without question, the best baserunner this team has. His baserunning instincts are top-notch. One lousy play doesn't change that.

There are a lot of negatives about Jose, but anybody who thinks he's a bad baserunner should take up knitting or horseback riding or something.

Blob
07-28-2004, 05:53 PM
Well I'm sure I will have a sore throat tomorrow after screaming all day sitting in the left-center field bleachers. I'm not real thrilled right now with Valentin and Borchard, to say the least, but there were other things I saw that were disturbing as well (Esteban, without a pitch above 88mph, effectively throwing BP to Twins hitters, for instance). :angry:

And speaking of BP, that reminds me of the only positive for me being at this game. The homerun ball I caught in my glove during BP!
Good for you LLF, at least you took away something that was positive!! I should have been there today but started a new job and missed it. Oh well, better off I guess.

The Sox have to get back on track soon...

Wealz
07-28-2004, 05:54 PM
There will be a lot of available shortstops this winter.
Oh, ok. Like who????????

RKMeibalane
07-28-2004, 05:55 PM
Oh, ok. Like who????????
(teal)

:hitless

freshdill
07-28-2004, 05:56 PM
Oh, ok. Like who????????
Alex Gonzalez for one. His .210 average, average range and mediocre throwing arm will make everybody forget about Jose.

PaleHoseGeorge
07-28-2004, 05:59 PM
Oh, ok. Like who????????
Careful here, Wealz. You're talking way too much sense in this post. :wink:

Valentin got the $ because we had absolutely nobody to play SS if we didn't re-sign him. As for getting Juan Uribe, last I checked his numbers were in a free-fall. After a fast start the league's pitchers have definitely caught up to him.

Let the Kelly Dransfeldt era begin!

:redface:

BarbG
07-28-2004, 06:03 PM
Great leaders don't go hitless in the biggest series of the season. Or make a bad baserunning decision that cost the team a big inning. Or drop a routine pop up to get his team out of a jam. He is what he is. I just hope after today's blunder, people stop writing that his errors never hurt the Sox. That's a load of you know what.

AMEN!!!

"My name is Jose, I'll be your waiter, and I'll be serving up today's game to you - on a silver freakin' platter - TWICE."

He has done that EVERY time I've been out there. Today he could NOT hit, could NOT run the bases, AND couldn't catch a flippin' pop up!

And he hasn't EVER been benched because...?

PaleHoseGeorge
07-28-2004, 06:07 PM
And he hasn't EVER been benched because...?
...because we don't have anyone else to play shortstop? :rolleyes:

Or are you on the Juan Uribe .131 BA in July bandwagon?

OurBitchinMinny
07-28-2004, 06:08 PM
This team ****ing sucks. Blow it up. This current team will finish 3rd or 4th in the division. You let the twins come in and sweep you in your own ballpark. What a ****ing joke. I cant wait to get to work tomorrow and take **** from all the twins fans. It sucks bad enough living in minnesota, but it sucks even worse when the twins are better than the sox. KW either has to make some moves or this team is going nowhere. Things would be different if maggs and thomas were here, but they arent and they arent gonna be

Wealz
07-28-2004, 06:11 PM
Careful here, Wealz. You're talking way too much sense in this post. :wink:

Valentin got the $ because we had absolutely nobody to play SS if we didn't re-sign him. As for getting Juan Uribe, last I checked his numbers were in a free-fall. After a fast start the league's pitchers have definitely caught up to him.

Let the Kelly Dransfeldt era begin!

:redface:
I hear ya. Meanwhile in 2001 the Sox drafted high school pitcher Kris Honel with the 16th pick and the A's took Bobby Crosby with the 25th.

Muopsies
07-28-2004, 06:13 PM
the answer in a word, is NO. he is useless to me and this team. he makes too many costly mistakes time and again. i blame him for this loss. catch the ball like you were taught in little league. he should use 2 hands ever time because chances are, he's gonna flub it. i can't stand losing that way. his solo home runs do not outweigh the fact that he is a liability. i though that was changing this year but it came back today and cost us big time. he may be useful as a DH but that's about it anymore. we cannot afford these type of mistakes. if the sox are to rebound from this giant kick in the nuts, he can't be part of it. why does this always happen to us? 2000,2003 please not 2004.

OEO Magglio
07-28-2004, 06:14 PM
This team ****ing sucks. Blow it up. This current team will finish 3rd or 4th in the division. You let the twins come in and sweep you in your own ballpark. What a ****ing joke. I cant wait to get to work tomorrow and take **** from all the twins fans. It sucks bad enough living in minnesota, but it sucks even worse when the twins are better than the sox. KW either has to make some moves or this team is going nowhere. Things would be different if maggs and thomas were here, but they arent and they arent gonna beUm.... didn't we do the same thing to minny a couple weeks back. They didn't throw in the towel, yes we played awful but we're two games back in the loss column, the sox will be fine, calm down minny.

dickallen15
07-28-2004, 06:16 PM
Oh, ok. Like who????????Orlando Cabrerra, Nomar Garciaparra, Christian Guzman, Edgar Renteria are a few.

Jjav829
07-28-2004, 06:21 PM
Ahh, the enigma that is Jose Valentin. This is what Jose does. He's going to swing for the fences so he'll strike out plenty of times. But if he gets a pitch to his liking, he can crush it out. He's not going to be a slap hitter. He won't hit .300 or get on base at a .350 clip (or even .330 for that matter). He's going to be aggressive on the bases nearly all the time. And a lot of times that pays off and he looks great. But that also means he'll make some very costly mistakes on the bases because of his aggressiveness. Today was one of those. Overall, he did have an awful game. Getting thrown out at 3rd base with 0 out, down a run, and with runners on 1st and 2nd is inexcusable. If you're going to go in that situation, you better make it. As for the pop up, he messed up. He's going to make that play 95% of the time, if not more.

Overall, do I wish we could get someone better? Sure. I thought Juan Uribe was that guy earlier in the year, but now that doesn't seem such an appealing option. If we could sign an Edgar Renteria or Rafael Furcal, I'd be in favor of it. But since that isn't very likely, Jose is probably our best choice.

fuzzy_patters
07-28-2004, 06:49 PM
Now that I have calmed down a bit from the game, there is one play that still really irks me. Jose Valentin just cannot get thrown out at third base in the seventh inning. When you are learning to play the game, you are taught that you are never to get thrown out at third on the first or third out of an inning. If there had been one out, I would not have a big problem with him getting thrown out because he was trying to put his team in line for a sacrifice fly. However, with 0 outs, he took himself out of scoring positions, and he took the bat out of Crede's hands as Crede was trying to bunt him over, anyway. That is just stupid baseball.

As for the physical errors, long swings, etc., that stuff happens and is part of a baseball. It is the stupid mental error that is driving me batty. Will these guys please just play the game the right way?

Wealz
07-28-2004, 06:56 PM
Orlando Cabrerra, Nomar Garciaparra, Christian Guzman, Edgar Renteria are a few.
Cabrerra and Guzman are nowhere near as good as Valentine and Garciaparra and Renteria are going to cost in excess of $50M.

fuzzy_patters
07-28-2004, 06:58 PM
Cabrerra and Guzman are nowhere near as good as Valentine and Garciaparra and Renteria are going to cost in excess of $50M.
Who said anything about Bobby Valentine?

RKMeibalane
07-28-2004, 07:32 PM
Cabrerra and Guzman are nowhere near as good as Valentine and Garciaparra and Renteria are going to cost in excess of $50M. There is no one named Valentine on the Sox roster.

BarbG
07-28-2004, 07:44 PM
...because we don't have anyone else to play shortstop? :rolleyes:

Or are you on the Juan Uribe .131 BA in July bandwagon?

According to mlb.com Uribe is .132 for July and Valentin .138. I've been bending over backwards trying to give Jose the benefit of the doubt after flubbed play, flubbed play, strikeout, strikeout and flubbed play. Today just broke my heart. I can't find current statistics for errors for this season but I personally have seen more by Valentin than anyone in 35 years of fandom. Critical errors. Over and over and over and over and over...

No I'm not screaming that Juan is the answer but at this point I don't think he could be WORSE.

On a side note, the umpiring in this series has been terrible

duke of dorwood
07-28-2004, 07:50 PM
WHITE SOX DEFINITION OF SMALL BALL

"As small a number of men on base when we homer as possible"

duke of dorwood
07-28-2004, 07:53 PM
Uribe, Harris, all 3 catchers are back ups on any Championship team.

Without Frank & Maggs-it appears we have the weakest batting order in the division except for KC

RKMeibalane
07-28-2004, 08:04 PM
Uribe, Harris, all 3 catchers are back ups on any Championship team.

Without Frank & Maggs-it appears we have the weakest batting order in the division except for KC
Crede and Rowand are probably also backups on a championship team. Perez, too.

RKMeibalane
07-28-2004, 08:07 PM
Overall, do I wish we could get someone better? Sure. I thought Juan Uribe was that guy earlier in the year, but now that doesn't seem such an appealing option. If we could sign an Edgar Renteria or Rafael Furcal, I'd be in favor of it. But since that isn't very likely, Jose is probably our best choice.
Renteria is a free-agent after this season, but the Cardinals are determined to re-sign him. Furcal is a possibility, but given how the Braves have managed to turn things around, I would imagine that he will also re-sign with them. The Sox are stuck with Valentin unless Uribe can his head out of his ass.

JB98
07-28-2004, 08:14 PM
All this talk about the lineup, I'm concerned too, but what about our starting pitching? We did not have a single quality start on this homestand. :?:

habibharu
07-28-2004, 08:18 PM
I hear ya. Meanwhile in 2001 the Sox drafted high school pitcher Kris Honel with the 16th pick and the A's took Bobby Crosby with the 25th. ahhh, yes, another fellow FOBB! crosby is in the majors and where is honel?

ode to veeck
07-28-2004, 08:20 PM
On a side note, the umpiring in this series has been terrible

At least they overturned the HRs .. er foul balls today

OEO Magglio
07-28-2004, 08:21 PM
Who said anything about Bobby Valentine?
NO, NO, NO fuzzy, he's obviously talking about Joe Valentine.

dickallen15
07-28-2004, 08:49 PM
Crede and Rowand are probably also backups on a championship team. Perez, too.Crede is coming around. Rowand is having a better year than Bernie Williams, who starts on what many consider the favorite to be a championship team. Perez is a back up on the White Sox. He is playing due to injury, as is doing a decent job.

South Side
07-28-2004, 09:37 PM
This team ****ing sucks. Blow it up. This current team will finish 3rd or 4th in the division. You let the twins come in and sweep you in your own ballpark. What a ****ing joke. I cant wait to get to work tomorrow and take **** from all the twins fans. It sucks bad enough living in minnesota, but it sucks even worse when the twins are better than the sox. KW either has to make some moves or this team is going nowhere. Things would be different if maggs and thomas were here, but they arent and they arent gonna be
It's getting REALLY old.

Frankfan4life
07-28-2004, 11:21 PM
God, please heal these men -------------------> :hurt :maggsand the rest of the team, too. AMEN!

illiniwhitesox
07-29-2004, 08:36 AM
I think Jose is worth the money, he is a team leader and also a feared bat in the line up, ever notice how many pitching changes happen when Jose comes to the plate?
Yeah, they always bring in a righty when they have a southpaw on the mound.

Flight #24
07-29-2004, 10:11 AM
ahhh, yes, another fellow FOBB! crosby is in the majors and where is honel?

That's a great comparison. Especially since Honel's 1)a pitcher (which generally take longer to hit the majors but are much more valuable than position players), 2)was injured, and 3)was doing pretty darn well before getting hurt.

But sure, KW should have factored all of that in and drafted Crosby - it's obvious!

Flight #24
07-29-2004, 10:14 AM
Anyone see any comments from Ozzie on why Borchard was left in instead of Rowand? Seems to me that at this point, ARow's a lot more fundamentally sound, and in a tie game late, the ability to execute and play the Smallball that Ozzie's so fond of becomes even more critical (on a side note - that's why the Twins are a ridiculous 39-0 when leading after 7).

Personally, while I have by no means written off Borchard as others here have done, I think ARow likely gets the run in in the 9th. He's just more experienced, fundamentally sound, and has better bat control.

idseer
07-29-2004, 10:27 AM
Anyone see any comments from Ozzie on why Borchard was left in instead of Rowand? Seems to me that at this point, ARow's a lot more fundamentally sound, and in a tie game late, the ability to execute and play the Smallball that Ozzie's so fond of becomes even more critical (on a side note - that's why the Twins are a ridiculous 39-0 when leading after 7).

Personally, while I have by no means written off Borchard as others here have done, I think ARow likely gets the run in in the 9th. He's just more experienced, fundamentally sound, and has better bat control.
you're exactly right. ozzie made a move directly in opposition to his own philosophy and it probably cost us that game.
makes me wonder if ozzie is more talk than action. i'm very disappointed in him.

Jerko
07-29-2004, 10:35 AM
As soon as Rowand and Borchard both were used as pinch hitters, I said "hopefully they'll just leave Rowand in" and of course after the 3rd out #25 comes sauntering out to CF. We'll never know if things would have turned out differently but I don't want to see Borchard again unless the Sox are 15 games out of first with 14 left. We need to win these games NOW and not rely on the old "Twins have a tougher schedule left than we do" routine. And you just knew he'd get the start Tuesday after homering Monday night. Leave Perez, Rowand, and Lee as the everyday outfield for a couple of weeks straight please and no more Gload/Borchard? Maybe Borchard's job for now should be pinch-running in case Gload pinch hits and gets on; maybe that way we'll actually have someone who can make it from first to third on a double.

JB98
07-29-2004, 12:07 PM
Anyone see any comments from Ozzie on why Borchard was left in instead of Rowand? Seems to me that at this point, ARow's a lot more fundamentally sound, and in a tie game late, the ability to execute and play the Smallball that Ozzie's so fond of becomes even more critical (on a side note - that's why the Twins are a ridiculous 39-0 when leading after 7).

Personally, while I have by no means written off Borchard as others here have done, I think ARow likely gets the run in in the 9th. He's just more experienced, fundamentally sound, and has better bat control.
Possibly. What happened was the veteran Mulholland took advantage of an overanxious young hitter by throwing a first-pitch breaking ball down and in. That pitched is designed to induce a grounder to the left side, and that's exactly what happened. A veteran hitter is looking for a pitch to drive to the outfield, so he probably spits on that pitch and takes it for strike one. A guy like Borchard, who is afraid to hit with strikes on him, will swing at anything in that spot. Rowand also is overanxious with RISP, so I'm not sure he'd do any better. We would have had to hope that AR would yank that pitch down the line and by Koskie. Of course, we'll never know for sure.