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idseer
07-28-2004, 11:04 AM
i keep reading this over and over. our guys are almost all trying to hit homeruns ALL the time. i'd like to see some proof of this. where did this myth start?

when i look at team hitting comparisons i do NOT see a team that hits nothing but homeruns. in the american league the sox are:

6th in hits, 10th in doubles, 10th in triples, 3rd in homeruns, and 7th in obp.

yep they're a little higher in the hr dept, but then, they ARE a power team aren't they?

carlos (who gets picked on a LOT for swinging for nothing but home runs)
has 112 hits of which 19 are bombs. that means 93 of his hits are NOT!
26 doubles and he's hitting .304. what do you WANT from the guy?

it gets tiresome to see this bull constantly thrown around as if there's any truth to it. i guess if you want to 'appear' to be some kind of expert it sounds good to say a guy was swinging for the hr everytime he makes a big out.
fact is this team doesn't do that any more than any other team.

how about we put that "all we do is try to hit homeruns" theory to rest?

SoxxoS
07-28-2004, 11:06 AM
I think the argument is that swinging for the fences is not the best option...maybe Carlos would have 20 more hits if he didn't swing for the fences...

idseer
07-28-2004, 11:20 AM
I think the argument is that swinging for the fences is not the best option...maybe Carlos would have 20 more hits if he didn't swing for the fences...20 more hits vs 19 homeruns? ummmm, i'll take the 19 homeruns.

i think that generally most hitters have a swing they use pretty much all the time. some swing harder than others. when they try to adjust they start to lose control and end up doing worse yet. there aren't THAT many hitters with the control to speed up, slow down, go certain directions, etc.

i say, leave carlos' swing alone. he's a power hitting .300 type hitter. i'm quite happy with that.

unless you mean 20 additional hits in which case carlos would be a .360 hitter. you really think carlos could be a .360 hitter? i don't!

Frater Perdurabo
07-28-2004, 11:20 AM
I don't think that ALL the Sox players swing for the fences ALL the time.

However, I do think they try to hit home runs too frequently.

On Saturday night vs. Detroit, Crede's biggest hit was the 2 RBI double. The homer was more dramatic, but he wouldn't have the opportunity to hit the game winning homer if he didn't go the other way and get 2 RBI in the 7th.

Good things happen more often when a talented hitter tries to make contact and uses the whole field.

Crede is the best (worst?) example of a Sox player swinging long and trying to pull the ball. Konerko, Lee and Valentin are guilty of this as well. I fear that Borchard has the same mentality. Often this results in a sharp ground ball or a pop-out. Frequently the sharp grounders result in double plays when the Sox do have a runner on first.

I don't know exactly WHY they do this. Is Greg Walker responsible? Is Ozzie not getting through to them? Or are Walker and Ozzie not saying anything? Or are they preaching the Gospel of Using the Whole Field and the players are ignoring them?

They better figure this out quick, or the Sox are destined for disappointment this year.

ma_deuce
07-28-2004, 11:24 AM
i keep reading this over and over. our guys are almost all trying to hit homeruns ALL the time. i'd like to see some proof of this. where did this myth start?:manos

The proof is in the mustache.

leon1973
07-28-2004, 11:26 AM
i keep reading this over and over. our guys are almost all trying to hit homeruns ALL the time. i'd like to see some proof of this. where did this myth start?

when i look at team hitting comparisons i do NOT see a team that hits nothing but homeruns. in the american league the sox are:

6th in hits, 10th in doubles, 10th in triples, 3rd in homeruns, and 7th in obp.

yep they're a little higher in the hr dept, but then, they ARE a power team aren't they?

carlos (who gets picked on a LOT for swinging for nothing but home runs)
has 112 hits of which 19 are bombs. that means 93 of his hits are NOT!
26 doubles and he's hitting .304. what do you WANT from the guy?

it gets tiresome to see this bull constantly thrown around as if there's any truth to it. i guess if you want to 'appear' to be some kind of expert it sounds good to say a guy was swinging for the hr everytime he makes a big out.
fact is this team doesn't do that any more than any other team.

how about we put that "all we do is try to hit homeruns" theory to rest?
I appreciate the stats. Do you happen to know how well they are hitting as a team with RISP? Not that this is relevant to what you are saying -- they haven't had a lot of opportunities the past couple of games anyway.:smile:

I'd like to see the guys take the outside pitch to the opposite field a little more, seems like they've been getting away from that lately.

JDP
07-28-2004, 11:27 AM
What does show up in the stats that you gave is the amount of outs that are the result of swinging for the fences -- not evening mentioning how many of these outs are "key" outs (runners in scoring position, late innings, rally killers, etc).

idseer
07-28-2004, 11:32 AM
I appreciate the stats. Do you happen to know how well they are hitting as a team with RISP? Not that this is relevant to what you are saying -- they haven't had a lot of opportunities the past couple of games anyway.:smile:

I'd like to see the guys take the outside pitch to the opposite field a little more, seems like they've been getting away from that lately.
if i read correctly (and i think i do), the sox are hitting .271 as a team but .282 with risp. also they are second in the league with an .840 ops.

surprised?

idseer
07-28-2004, 11:33 AM
What does show up in the stats that you gave is the amount of outs that are the result of swinging for the fences -- not evening mentioning how many of these outs are "key" outs (runners in scoring position, late innings, rally killers, etc).
see post #8 :smile:

OG4LIFE
07-28-2004, 12:23 PM
if i read correctly (and i think i do), the sox are hitting .271 as a team but .282 with risp. also they are second in the league with an .840 ops.

surprised?
take out frank and maggs' numbers, and insert borchard/everett. then take out olivo's contribution (yes he was far better than davis/alomar/burke), and thats the team you have now.

i'd bet that's far different than the team that put up the numbers you describe.

idseer
07-28-2004, 12:50 PM
take out frank and maggs' numbers, and insert borchard/everett. then take out olivo's contribution (yes he was far better than davis/alomar/burke), and thats the team you have now.

i'd bet that's far different than the team that put up the numbers you describe.
not really. olivo hit .220 with risp, thomas .273.
magglio did better at .352 but only had 54 ab's.

the sox are better with risp than you seem to think.

Frater Perdurabo
07-28-2004, 04:35 PM
the sox are better with risp than you seem to think.
1. The stats are "padded" by Maggs' production and the team's better offensive stats when Uribe and Harris were getting on base and the middle of the lineup was knocking them in.

2. Their RISP average is one thing, but how many RISP at bats have they had in comparison to other teams? Like batting average, sample size is significant. You can have four RISP ABs and score two of them for a .500 average. Looks good on paper, but in one game that's just two runs.

3. The Sox have a propensity to get a man on first and then hit into a double play. Quickly there are two outs, meaning that there are fewer RISP opportunities overall.

4. Many of the Sox hitters cannot score from second on a single. Second base is "scoring position" in name only for the Sox. A single may move a runner to third, but then a double play or a strikeout to follow negates the good RISP average.

The point is that they could hit .700 with RISP, but if they don't get many RISP, they can't knock in many runs.

idseer
07-28-2004, 04:59 PM
2. Their RISP average is one thing, but how many RISP at bats have they had in comparison to other teams?

well, that turned out to be a good question. they are dead last in ab's with risp.
but my point was really that WHEN they have the opportunity they hit very well.
your point shows they're poor at getting on.
2 different things.

todays game was another example imo of people not knowing what they're talking about. lee's last ab was immediately described as a "from the heels" swing. i watched him pretty closely and did NOT see it that way at all. he was trying to make contact.

Frater Perdurabo
07-28-2004, 05:08 PM
well, that turned out to be a good question. they are dead last in ab's with risp.
but my point was really that WHEN they have the opportunity they hit very well.
your point shows they're poor at getting on.
2 different things.
Yes, but they are just different symptoms of the same fundamental problem. The Sox do not get on base enough -- and therefore do not score enough runs given their hitting talent -- because they try to pull the ball and/or swing for the fences much too often.

Shoeless Joe
07-28-2004, 05:12 PM
I'll go quote Hawk on this one (man I never thought I'd do that)....

:hawk
"Don't tell me how many you hit, tell me when you hit 'em."

Situational hitting has made this team a horrible one. Seeing runners on first and second with nobody out and then only coming out with one run is depressing. And we've seen this many times this season.

This team can certainly win hitting home runs and getting occasional extra base hits but when you keep laying down to the Twins it doesn't mean a damn thing.

idseer
07-28-2004, 05:18 PM
Yes, but they are just different symptoms of the same fundamental problem. The Sox do not get on base enough -- and therefore do not score enough runs given their hitting talent -- because they try to pull the ball and/or swing for the fences much too often.
we'll just have to disagree. they hit pretty well. if they were always pulling or swinging from the heels they wouldn't be hitting as well as they do. and they are 7th in obp. that's NOT a team that doesn't get on base.

idseer
07-28-2004, 05:20 PM
Situational hitting has made this team a horrible one. Seeing runners on first and second with nobody out and then only coming out with one run is depressing. And we've seen this many times this season.

This team can certainly win hitting home runs and getting occasional extra base hits but when you keep laying down to the Twins it doesn't mean a damn thing.
the fact is we've beaten the twins this year more than they've beaten us.
does that count for anything?

Shoeless Joe
07-28-2004, 05:34 PM
the fact is we've beaten the twins this year more than they've beaten us.
does that count for anything?
Without a doubt it does. Look I'm not giving up on this team in fact I'm positive this team will get to first place again and I'm positive we'll probably lose it again. It's just the way the season is going to go. But come on, human nature gives everyone the "what have you done for me lately" mindset. People including myself aren't going to remember the double that Jose Valentin hit in the 6th inning that scored in a run against the Orioles earlier in the season, they're going to remember the 4 whiffs he had the day after. It's unfortunate but true. And that's how people think.

But regardless, we got an easier schedule than the Twins the next three series so I hope we're on top then. And it wouldn't hurt to add some more players before Saturday.

fuzzy_patters
07-28-2004, 05:35 PM
well, that turned out to be a good question. they are dead last in ab's with risp.
but my point was really that WHEN they have the opportunity they hit very well.
your point shows they're poor at getting on.
2 different things.

todays game was another example imo of people not knowing what they're talking about. lee's last ab was immediately described as a "from the heels" swing. i watched him pretty closely and did NOT see it that way at all. he was trying to make contact.
Actually, your post proves that you do not know why you are talking about. Did you see the way Carlos's behind was falling towards third while he reached for the ball? Do you know what that means? That means Carlos was trying to pull a pitch with two strikes on him and the bases loaded. If he had shortened up and looked right to right-center like he should have with two strikes his front side would not have broken down like that. Instead, Carlos wanted to be the hero and tried to pull the pitch, hoping for a slam.

idseer
07-28-2004, 05:48 PM
Actually, your post proves that you do not know why you are talking about. Did you see the way Carlos's behind was falling towards third while he reached for the ball? Do you know what that means? That means Carlos was trying to pull a pitch with two strikes on him and the bases loaded. If he had shortened up and looked right to right-center like he should have with two strikes his front side would not have broken down like that. Instead, Carlos wanted to be the hero and tried to pull the pitch, hoping for a slam.
absolutely false. he was protecting the plate and frankly it was a very good pitch. sometimes a k is just a k.

Blob
07-28-2004, 05:58 PM
I think the argument is that swinging for the fences is not the best option...maybe Carlos would have 20 more hits if he didn't swing for the fences...
Right! Just like he did during his hitting streak. This swining for the fences is bull. They need to start going the other way and driving for extra bases instead of trying to knock a 6 run homer with each swing.

skobabe8
07-28-2004, 09:37 PM
Stats or no stats, people say this team swings for the fences alot because its obvious when you watch a game. Anyone who's watched baseball for any amount of time can see the difference between a swing thats short and quick and one thats long. I, for one, get pissed when no one goes with the pitch the other way. Everyone who pitches against us paints the outside corner. Look at Brad Radke. I know its easier said than done, but you have to go the other way against a guy like him. So when I see Juan Uribe spin himself into the ground or Carlos Lee try to pull a ball thats on the outside corner, my knuckles introduce themselves to walls around my house.

Frater Perdurabo
07-29-2004, 08:19 AM
we'll just have to disagree. they hit pretty well. if they were always pulling or swinging from the heels they wouldn't be hitting as well as they do. and they are 7th in obp. that's NOT a team that doesn't get on base.
Again, you are basing your analysis on team OBP stats from the entire season, which includes Harris and Uribe's April and May, and the inclusion of Frank and Maggs, who are the team's two most consistent OBP guys. The fact that they are out of the lineup due to injury while Harris and Uribe have returned to form, means that the team's OBP is falling like a rock right now.

They still get men on base, but not nearly as often as earlier in the season. Furthermore, their overall tendency to negate baserunners through double plays, pop outs and fielders' choices is only made more apparent by Maggs' and Franks' absence.

Mark Twain once said that we have "lies, damn lies and statistics." The only statistics that mean squat are the won-loss record and how many games ahead or behind we are at the end of the year. And the Sox current approach to hitting right now is causing these most important stats to decline.

Of course I don't believe that the season is over right now. But if the Sox want to take advantage of the fact that they have an "easier" schedule while the Twins' schedule is "harder," Sox hitters (other than Konerko and Lee) better improve their approach at the plate.

idseer
07-29-2004, 08:32 AM
Again, you are basing your analysis on team OBP stats from the entire season, which includes Harris and Uribe's April and May, and the inclusion of Frank and Maggs, who are the team's two most consistent OBP guys. The fact that they are out of the lineup due to injury while Harris and Uribe have returned to form, means that the team's OBP is falling like a rock right now.

They still get men on base, but not nearly as often as earlier in the season. Furthermore, their overall tendency to negate baserunners through double plays, pop outs and fielders' choices is only made more apparent by Maggs' and Franks' absence.

Mark Twain once said that we have "lies, damn lies and statistics." The only statistics that mean squat are the won-loss record and how many games ahead or behind we are at the end of the year. And the Sox current approach to hitting right now is causing these most important stats to decline.

Of course I don't believe that the season is over right now. But if the Sox want to take advantage of the fact that they have an "easier" schedule while the Twins' schedule is "harder," Sox hitters (other than Konerko and Lee) better improve their approach at the plate.
there are ups and downs to every season. i think you're focusing on the current low point and that's understandable.
the easier schedule SHOULD bring a more evident improvment in obp compared to what it has been in the last week. i am aware the loss of thomas and ordonez has hurt obp but i don't think those losses dropped them from 7th to last in obp. maybe they did drop a couple places but they still aren't as bad as many are making out.
i don't think anyone is going to improve their approach at the plate. they will do what they do and que sara sara. i say they won't all be in this same funk for long.
we shall see.

illiniwhitesox
07-29-2004, 08:33 AM
I do not feel that we swing for the fence, however, we clearly fail in advancing runners into scoring position. I have seen more failed baserunning attempts and DP grounders with the WS than any other team in the AL.

I know what Ozzie is doing and I want to see us play this kind of baseball. You have to be able to play some small ball, especially in the playoffs. We can score runs with the best of them - there is not doubt about this.

Can we manufacture runs? The jury still is out on this and yesterday's game did nothing to make me feel better about this. Please reference Valentin's b-running, Borchard's DP grounder in the ninth, Harris' and Crede's repeated failed bunt attempts.

Mickster
07-29-2004, 09:14 AM
the fact is we've beaten the twins this year more than they've beaten us.
does that count for anything?
We beat the twins more than they beat us last year too...... Where did that get us?

MisterB
07-29-2004, 10:16 AM
there are ups and downs to every season. i think you're focusing on the current low point and that's understandable.
the easier schedule SHOULD bring a more evident improvment in obp compared to what it has been in the last week. i am aware the loss of thomas and ordonez has hurt obp but i don't think those losses dropped them from 7th to last in obp. maybe they did drop a couple places but they still aren't as bad as many are making out.
i don't think anyone is going to improve their approach at the plate. they will do what they do and que sara sara. i say they won't all be in this same funk for long.
we shall see.
Sox in July (mostly without Frank & Maggs):
Avg: .230 (last in AL)
OBP: .293 (last)
SLG: .403 (13th)
OPS: .696 (13th)
Runs: 99 (13th)

Basically we're duking it out with KC for worst offense in the AL over the last month.

idseer
07-29-2004, 10:23 AM
Sox in July (mostly without Frank & Maggs):
Avg: .230 (last in AL)
OBP: .293 (last)
SLG: .403 (13th)
OPS: .696 (13th)
Runs: 99 (13th)

Basically we're duking it out with KC for worst offense in the AL over the last month.
i agree it's been a dismal month hitting-wise, and magglio played half the month (as i understand it his injury didn't affect his batting when he returned).
it's been a month of adjustment and a lot of switching guys around. i believe it will greatly improve and only the month of august will prove that.

guillen4life13
07-29-2004, 10:34 AM
the fact is we've beaten the twins this year more than they've beaten us.
does that count for anything?
I'll be really frank about this.

To me, it doesn't count for anything. At this point, the only thing that counts is that the Sox are 3.5 games back in their division, and they are not leading the wildcard race.

The biggest culprits of this problem (currently on the roster, and at this time) are:

Jose Valentin
Joe Borchard
Juan Uribe
Joe Crede

These are all very capable players. We all know that.

Homeruns(the useful ones) don't come from trying to specifically hit them. They come from good bat timing and solid hits. You really don't need to use all that much force from the bat--just let the momentum on the ball hit the bat on its sweet spot. These guys want to muscle out a home-run, and that just doesn't seem to work out too well. They strikeout too much. They kill rallies because of this. (see 7/27 vs. Twins, 7th inning). Or they pop up.

Solid hitting teams win. Well rounded teams win. The Sox have people who should be trying to hit more doubles and gappers and such, but instead are trying to hit homeruns. Joe Borchard is the only one on that list who I think is justified to an extent, because he is a power hitter from the roots. The rest are not.

I'm just pissed because it seems like there have been so many rallies that were just killed by strikeouts and pop outs because the guys were trying to swing too hard for the fences.

Frater Perdurabo
07-29-2004, 11:02 AM
Yes, this lack of hitting is "isolated" in July. But barring a trade, this is the same group that will play for the Sox in August. They players won't change. They will face Detroit, KC and Cleveland more, but other than that we are dealing with the same core of players who continually swing for the fences.

Frank's walks and Maggs' hits were a big part of the Sox good OBP earlier this year. They are gone. Their contributions are MEANINGLESS to the Sox offense as presently constructed.

I really hope you are right and that the Sox will turn it around and start winning games and winning series. I hope they go through August on a tear and pull to five or six games ahead by the end of the month, and then win the division by 12-15 games.

I hope I am wrong. But I have seen better Sox offenses go flat for extended periods of time over the past five seasons. This inconsestency is killing them.

With Frank and Maggs out, but a spate up upcoming games against "weaker" teams and "weaker" pitching, this is put up or shut up time for Crede, Konerko, Lee, Valentin, Borchard, Everett, Rowand, Uribe and Harris.

Again, I hope I am wrong but I fear that I am right.

idseer
07-29-2004, 11:03 AM
I'll be really frank about this.

To me, it doesn't count for anything. At this point, the only thing that counts is that the Sox are 3.5 games back in their division, and they are not leading the wildcard race.

The biggest culprits of this problem (currently on the roster, and at this time) are:

Jose Valentin
Joe Borchard
Juan Uribe
Joe Crede

These are all very capable players. We all know that.

Homeruns(the useful ones) don't come from trying to specifically hit them. They come from good bat timing and solid hits. You really don't need to use all that much force from the bat--just let the momentum on the ball hit the bat on its sweet spot. These guys want to muscle out a home-run, and that just doesn't seem to work out too well. They strikeout too much. They kill rallies because of this. (see 7/27 vs. Twins, 7th inning). Or they pop up.

Solid hitting teams win. Well rounded teams win. The Sox have people who should be trying to hit more doubles and gappers and such, but instead are trying to hit homeruns. Joe Borchard is the only one on that list who I think is justified to an extent, because he is a power hitter from the roots. The rest are not.

I'm just pissed because it seems like there have been so many rallies that were just killed by strikeouts and pop outs because the guys were trying to swing too hard for the fences.i think it does count for something. it takes a whole season to make a winner, not just a current trend. the problem with your way of looking at it is that you're too high when we win and too low when we lose. this is an inconsistant team and that's just the way it is.

as for your assessment of them striking out too much ..... once again, the facts don't back that up. first off, they ARE a power hitting team whether you like it or not. and power teams k more often than finesse teams.
the FACTS say that the sox have struck out exactly 22 more times than the twins this year 636 to 614. the fact say that boston (with752), detroit, oakland, texas and toronto all have many more k's than do the sox. throw in seattle (627), cleve (628), and the yankees (618) ... and the sox are bunched in just about where they should be expected.

you see the sox bad side and you think they are doing everything wrong. can't get timely hits (not true), all swing for the fences (not true) k more than anyone else (not true) last in hitting hr's with men on (not true) .... it's all bs!

i sure don't think the sox have the best team out there. they certainly have problems that need to be addressed. but let's stop making up stuff cause it 'feels' right.

soxnut
07-30-2004, 03:03 PM
I hate the way our offense works, It's ridicuous and it's not good baseball, regardless of the stats. Sure this team will hit again, and then they won't and then they will, and then they won't, and then they will, and then in crunch time for the division or the wildcard, they'll fall flat on their faces, because they can't play smallball.

I am ususally very positive about the Sox, but I have had it with this offense ever since Jeff Abbott hit that game-ending home run against Minnesota back in 2000. Until this team can adjust their approach to hitting a little bit, or bring in players who can do this, unfortunately we're all fooling ourselves if we think this current offense will get them anywhere.:(:

oldcomiskey
07-31-2004, 07:38 AM
uh huh--thats why Crede and others dont shorten their swings with 2 strikes because they aint swinging for the fences--sure sure

fuzzy_patters
08-06-2004, 02:10 PM
i keep reading this over and over. our guys are almost all trying to hit homeruns ALL the time. i'd like to see some proof of this. where did this myth start?

when i look at team hitting comparisons i do NOT see a team that hits nothing but homeruns. in the american league the sox are:

6th in hits, 10th in doubles, 10th in triples, 3rd in homeruns, and 7th in obp.

yep they're a little higher in the hr dept, but then, they ARE a power team aren't they?

carlos (who gets picked on a LOT for swinging for nothing but home runs)
has 112 hits of which 19 are bombs. that means 93 of his hits are NOT!
26 doubles and he's hitting .304. what do you WANT from the guy?

it gets tiresome to see this bull constantly thrown around as if there's any truth to it. i guess if you want to 'appear' to be some kind of expert it sounds good to say a guy was swinging for the hr everytime he makes a big out.
fact is this team doesn't do that any more than any other team.

how about we put that "all we do is try to hit homeruns" theory to rest?
"If I see any more home run swings with 2 strikes, I'm going to throw up." -Kenny Williams

I guess KW is just trying to sound like an expert. After all, there is no truth to it.

idseer's credibility------------>window

southsideirish71
08-06-2004, 03:42 PM
If you believe that Carlos is not going for power number and has the same swing as he had during his 28 game hitting streak then you are not paying attention.

He was getting beat up in the first part of the season about his low BA. He was hitting .230. The biggest complaint was a long swing. He shortens up the swing and starts to hit to right field and up the middle. His average goes from .230 to .307. Then the media starts to harp on him about his lack of power



When Carlos Lee hovered at the four home run mark in mid-June and the RBIs weren't exactly piling up, the talented White Sox left fielder assured all inquiring minds there was very little reason for concern.
"I didn't worry about it," Lee said of his first-half power outage. "I told everyone that, by the end of the year, I would be at 25 or 30. It was just a matter of time"

Then he makes a change where he extends his arms instead of using a more compact swing.




POWER COMPANY: Carlos Lee has found his home-run stroke, and all it took was a little adjustment with hitting coach Greg Walker. Lee has hit eight home runs already this month, including one in the fourth inning Tuesday, after hitting six in the first three months.

''I was getting my hits, but I didn't have the extension that I always had,'' Lee said. ''It was just a little tiny thing. We were worried about other things, and we weren't looking at that one. We located it and worked on it.''

Lee said he had developed a compact swing that was causing him to hook balls down the line. With his arms extended, home runs now are coming naturally. ''It's kind of nice that you don't try to do it, it just happens,'' Lee said. ''It's not like I'm shooting for it. It's going to take a lot of patience to get the right pitch and put on the right swing.''

I would rather have his compact swing when he is up with men on late in the game where a base hit will extend the game instead of his new swing with his arms extended that gives us a pop out to the 2nd baseman. Why hook the ball down the line for a double when you can hit the all important home run.

How about this, he can extend his arms and mash the ball all he wants, but use your head for the situation. If a man is on third with say 1 out all you need is contact. Shorten the swing a bit and make contact. Instead of swinging hard with your arms extended and missing the ball.
:gulp: