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Jerome
07-27-2004, 10:04 PM
We are in some serious s**** with Frank and Maggs out. Yes I know it's obvious, but think about this-

Carlos Lee and Paul Konerko feasted with Frank and Maggs on base, especially Frank with his 450 OBP. I would not be suprised if both Konerko and Lee cool down in the next couple of weeks. Crazy Carl takes away SOME of the sting of losing one, but not both.

Crede and Valentin are OFFENSIVE BLACK HOLES. Look at their OBPs. Crede's is under .300 (that means he sucks, for those who haven't read moneyball) and Valentin's is under .310. At least Willie takes some walks.

I think we should go back to leading of Rowand and Willie #2

Brian26
07-27-2004, 10:10 PM
We're in some serious trouble. Hopefully guys like Crede and Jose can elevate their game to another level. I think this team has the tendency to sit back and wait for Frank and Mags to take care of things. Now the load is on their shoulders. Maybe Borchard can get hot, who knows. Let's hope and pray we can get Mags and Frank back in September and stay close enough to do something magical towards the end of the season.

idseer
07-27-2004, 10:18 PM
We're in some serious trouble. Hopefully guys like Crede and Jose can elevate their game to another level. I think this team has the tendency to sit back and wait for Frank and Mags to take care of things. Now the load is on their shoulders. Maybe Borchard can get hot, who knows. Let's hope and pray we can get Mags and Frank back in September and stay close enough to do something magical towards the end of the season.
except borchard isn't any good.

valposoxfan
07-27-2004, 10:22 PM
This team we are putting on the field right now will lose the division by up to seven games. No team can win without their two best offensive players and the White Sox are no exception, and I don't understand why people think we are fine without them. If KW doesn't make a move it will be a long, long rest of the season. We can't compete with the Twins missing TWO of the best offensive players on our team. These last two days have made it disgustingly obvious. Serious trouble is a very accurate description of the status of this team right now.

Win1ForMe
07-27-2004, 10:28 PM
Yeah, I think we're in very big trouble. With Frank/Maggs out, and with the Twins adding Stewart, Morneau, Mauer (eventually), and Benson, they look like the more talented team.

I think Radke/Santana/Benson are better than Buehrle/Garcia/Garland, they have a better bullpen, and their lineup can score in various ways without the benefit of a HR.

Doesn't seem anymore like a single trade would even put us over the top, a couple of trades would still be needed for that.

samram
07-27-2004, 10:28 PM
This team we are putting on the field right now will lose the division by up to seven games. No team can win without their two best offensive players and the White Sox are no exception, and I don't understand why people think we are fine without them. If KW doesn't make a move it will be a long, long rest of the season. We can't compete with the Twins missing TWO of the best offensive players on our team. These last two days have made it disgustingly obvious. Serious trouble is a very accurate description of the status of this team right now.
Agreed. The number don't always show it, but Frank and Maggs are significantly better than either Carlos or PK, so it makes sense that the latter two will not perform as well when they are the top dogs.

CHI_SOX_4_LIFE
07-27-2004, 10:31 PM
What in the world is goin on with the offense!? i know maggs and thomas are out but we are better than this. we have got to improve a lot and fast or we will be lucky to finish in 2nd and maybe even 3rd. its ugly. the pitching staff is doin pretty good, both starters and out of the pen. with the way this offense should be playing we could potentially have a 4 or 5 game lead on the twins.

jeremyb1
07-27-2004, 10:37 PM
Crede and Valentin are OFFENSIVE BLACK HOLES. Look at their OBPs. Crede's is under .300 (that means he sucks, for those who haven't read moneyball) and Valentin's is under .310. At least Willie takes some walks.

I'm as "Moneyball" as they come around these parts and a strong fielding shortstop with a .550 SLG is anything but a black hole.

balboner
07-27-2004, 10:41 PM
Look at tonight's lineup, and tell me who you really consider to be a tough out vs a lefty. I would say Carlos, Rowand, and Konerko are all above average hitters vs lhp. The rest of the guys are relatively easy outs.

nasox
07-27-2004, 10:43 PM
NO **** Sherlock

BigEdWalsh
07-27-2004, 10:49 PM
We are in some serious s**** with Frank and Maggs out. Yes I know it's obvious, but think about this-

Carlos Lee and Paul Konerko feasted with Frank and Maggs on base, especially Frank with his 450 OBP. I would not be suprised if both Konerko and Lee cool down in the next couple of weeks. Crazy Carl takes away SOME of the sting of losing one, but not both.

Crede and Valentin are OFFENSIVE BLACK HOLES. Look at their OBPs. Crede's is under .300 (that means he sucks, for those who haven't read moneyball) and Valentin's is under .310. At least Willie takes some walks.

I think we should go back to leading of Rowand and Willie #2
We're in deep doodoo. The only way we're finishing ahead of the Twins is gonna be if we can feast on the Royals and do pretty well against the Indians and Tigers while the Twins (hopefully!) are getting clobbered by some upper echelon teams. :rolleyes:
The Sox need help in more ways than one.:help:

VaSoxfan
07-27-2004, 10:57 PM
This offense scored 14 runs just a week ago, against the Indians best pitcher...they can definitley play when they want to..but for some reason have chosen to lay down like dogs again in a crucial game.

I was afraid of this. Ozzie showed no guts last night and obviously didn't get any messages across to this team, so the Twins stomped all over us again. Great job Ozz...

Dan H
07-27-2004, 11:17 PM
This offense scored 14 runs just a week ago, against the Indians best pitcher...they can definitley play when they want to..but for some reason have chosen to lay down like dogs again in a crucial game.

I was afraid of this. Ozzie showed no guts last night and obviously didn't get any messages across to this team, so the Twins stomped all over us again. Great job Ozz...
What message do the Sox need at this point? They are playing the first place team in front of nearly 40,000. Do they need to be told something?

No matter what you think about what Guillen said last night, this performance has been typical of the Sox this year. They can't score without the home run. They did hit three in the last two nights but all were solo shots. That didn't hurt the Twins one bit.

Can anyone get a hit with runners in scoring position? Has anyone on the Sox ever heard of a single with a man on second? Is this a novel idea?

Saying this team is in trouble is an understatement, but I don't think Guillen should be made a scapegoat.

VaSoxfan
07-27-2004, 11:26 PM
What message do the Sox need at this point? They are playing the first place team in front of nearly 40,000. Do they need to be told something?

No matter what you think about what Guillen said last night, this performance has been typical of the Sox this year. They can't score without the home run. They did hit three in the last two nights but all were solo shots. That didn't hurt the Twins one bit.

Can anyone get a hit with runners in scoring position? Has anyone on the Sox ever heard of a single with a man on second? Is this a novel idea?

Saying this team is in trouble is an understatement, but I don't think Guillen should be made a scapegoat.

Well then, isn't it the managers job to manage the team? If they aren't performing he needs to rectify the situation....not sit there and kiss the Twins butts in the press like he did last night for them playing hard...take some action...rile that team up.

This team, even with its missing stars, has shown it could score runs. And give the Twins top pitchers plenty of talent. But the management also has to be taken to task when they are still flat after getting roughed up at home last night too...and frankly Ozzie hasn't been an all-star manager this year, he's been an improvement, yes, and has done some good things...but has also made some very questionable decisions.

Lip Man 1
07-27-2004, 11:37 PM
Va:

I think Ozzie was trying to motivate the team last night by embarassing them to the media, that they WERE NOT playing that hard.

What is he supposed to do? Start a lineup with Perez, Gload, Davis, Burke, Harris and Borchard?

I mean were not talking a lot of quality depth on the team are we?

I don't know what more he can do. He's tried to be positive, he said they still can win, he's said they still have a chance and in my opinion, he embarassed them to the media.

Lip

VaSoxfan
07-27-2004, 11:53 PM
Va:

I think Ozzie was trying to motivate the team last night by embarassing them to the media, that they WERE NOT playing that hard.

What is he supposed to do? Start a lineup with Perez, Gload, Davis, Burke, Harris and Borchard?

I mean were not talking a lot of quality depth on the team are we?

I don't know what more he can do. He's tried to be positive, he said they still can win, he's said they still have a chance and in my opinion, he embarassed them to the media.

Lip
I'm not going to start buying into the "they don't have depth" or "Thomas and Mags are out" or whatever excuse makes things better. This team HAS won, and scored runs, while missing one or both of these guys. That excuse is not going to wash. Poor play and poor decisions are what have hurt this team..yes they faced two very good Twins pitchers. But in 4 of the 5 games at home against Minnesota, they have shown up flat and played terrible baseball...that's not acceptable...and I'm saying Ozzie did nobody any favors sucking up to the Twins last night in the media, and by not doing anything to even remotely show some desire to get back at them, even with plain old aggressive baseball.

Jerome
07-28-2004, 12:24 AM
I'm as "Moneyball" as they come around these parts and a strong fielding shortstop with a .550 SLG is anything but a black hole.



I was referring more to Crede, but you are right. I just have a problem with Jose "meister of the homer or strikeout" batting second, especially against lefties.

Lip Man 1
07-28-2004, 12:51 AM
Va:

With respect there is a reason why guys like Gload, Perez, Burke, Davis etc... have been released, traded and bench warmers.

They are not good enough to play on a regular basis. That's not a knock they have done a pretty fair job this year but they are simply not good enough to handle the load on a regular basis. If they were they'd be starting someplace.

So again I have to ask what is Ozzie supposed to do? Make the 1983 White Sox of Fisk, Luzinski, Kittle, Paciorek and Baines magically appear?

When you're outgunned... you're outgunned, you do the best that you can and hope for the best.

Lip

AnkleSox
07-28-2004, 02:09 AM
Jose's .525 slugging average doesn't make up for 97 strikeouts in 299 at bats. I'd rather have a shortstop with a lower slugging average and an average higher thatn .237 with an OBP higher than .304 . Getting at least to first a few times every game would be much more beneficial than a homerun every 3 or 4 games with 6 strikeouts to go along.

That being said, I do know Jose brings a good attitude and presence to the clubhouse, but hell, Billy Koch was a nice guy and had a good attitude too.

owensmouth
07-28-2004, 03:40 AM
We lost the last two games because we were outpitched. We ran into a pair of good pitchers. Guess what, the same thing happens to every team. We will win our share of the games. I still firmly believe that we can win, without Frank and Maggs. Reason, PK and Carlos are on their way to career years. Uribe has a history of bad summers, but good springs and falls. And we have a team that beats up on any pitcher that isn't at the top of his game. Weak spots? Sure, but plenty of strong ones too.

soxfan45
07-28-2004, 11:36 AM
I've got to agree with the author who says that Ozzie just doesn't
have the tools. Its really a miracle (not to mention a weak division)
that we are where we are when you lose Frank and Mags. We just
don't have the hitting horses to replace them. While Frank was a free
swinger, he got on base a lot and put pressure on pitchers. Mags was
both a power & contact guy who is a career .300 hitter. I just don't see
anyone in our lineup who has anywhere near the kind of plate discipline that these 2 guys had...at least to put themselves on base.

Valentine and Uribe are nice guys but their approach to situational
baseball is horrendous. They have the same swing no matter the pitch
count.

I look at the Twins lineup, and I'm not sure who I'd rather have from
the Sox from top to bottom, including pitching. This is just a more talented
ball club than the Sox. Bottom line.

Paulwny
07-28-2004, 11:45 AM
I look at the Twins lineup, and I'm not sure who I'd rather have from
the Sox from top to bottom, including pitching. This is just a more talented
ball club than the Sox. Bottom line.
On paper the sox maybe more talented ,but when it comes to playing the game (team ball) the twins are more talented.

LASOXFAN
07-28-2004, 12:48 PM
The best teams are those that can adjust to obstacles of a 162 game season.

I'm glad we're losing the reliance on power baseball. Adapt or die.