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Elvisfan1977
07-27-2004, 09:52 PM
During tonight's game, the Chairman made an appearance with Hawk and I got the idea the White Sox are not going to do anything special in acquiring what we need to get to the next level for the post season. In fact when he made the comment, and I'm paraphrasing here, "Kenny Williams is in charge of the baseball, and I write the checks...." I got the idea he tightened Kenny's leash. He also went on to say, "We just don't have as much money as Steinbrenner..." I don't know about you guys, but that sounds like they're throwing in the towel this year. What do you guys think? Also last week or the week before KW made was quoted in the Cubune as saying, "I know I said I want to win this year, but I want to win next year and the year after that too..." I think all three quotes sound like they're conceding. Any thoughts?

idseer
07-27-2004, 09:56 PM
During tonight's game, the Chairman made an appearance with Hawk and I got the idea the White Sox are not going to do anything special in acquiring what we need to get to the next level for the post season. In fact when he made the comment, and I'm paraphrasing here, "Kenny Williams is in charge of the baseball, and I write the checks...." I got the idea he tightened Kenny's leash. He also went on to say, "We just don't have as much money as Steinbrenner..." I don't know about you guys, but that sounds like they're throwing in the towel this year. What do you guys think? Also last week or the week before KW made was quoted in the Cubune as saying, "I know I said I want to win this year, but I want to win next year and the year after that too..." I think all three quotes sound like they're conceding. Any thoughts?
they may not spend as much as we'd like ... but i'm quite sure no one is 'conceding' anything.

Win1ForMe
07-27-2004, 09:57 PM
they may not spend as much as we'd like ... but i'm quite sure no one is 'conceding' anything.
Except the team that's actually playing on the field.

Mickster
07-27-2004, 09:59 PM
During tonight's game, the Chairman made an appearance with Hawk and I got the idea the White Sox are not going to do anything special in acquiring what we need to get to the next level for the post season. In fact when he made the comment, and I'm paraphrasing here, "Kenny Williams is in charge of the baseball, and I write the checks...." I got the idea he tightened Kenny's leash. He also went on to say, "We just don't have as much money as Steinbrenner..." I don't know about you guys, but that sounds like they're throwing in the towel this year. What do you guys think? Also last week or the week before KW made was quoted in the Cubune as saying, "I know I said I want to win this year, but I want to win next year and the year after that too..." I think all three quotes sound like they're conceding. Any thoughts?
JR was also on North & Buffone at 5:30P and, although he didn't say so in so many words, I got the feeling that KW is done with any major trades. Might get some bullpen help and a RH bat for the bench but that's about it. JMHO.

Palehose13
07-27-2004, 10:00 PM
I am not a "JR basher" like some, but I do remember KW making a comment something like "if attendance is up, then we'll have the money to make some moves". Granted, they did go and get Garcia and Everett, but with Frank and Maggs gone for most of (if not the rest) of the season I feel that they need to get another bat. The attendance has been there and will be there...if we continue to make a run. C'mon Kenny and Uncle Jer, make the move! A certain catcher in Pittsburgh looks nice.

Brian26
07-27-2004, 10:03 PM
They're not conceding anything. If we were on the verge of a big trade, do you think JR would actually say anything anyway? It's called a.) tampering and b.) leverage.

Elvisfan1977
07-27-2004, 10:05 PM
They're not conceding anything. If we were on the verge of a big trade, do you think JR would actually say anything anyway? It's called a.) tampering and b.) leverage.
Good point.

Flight #24
07-27-2004, 10:22 PM
I've been a big proponent of the Attendance = revenue philosophy, but I wonder if with Frank & Maggs out, there's a concern that the team's going to slump and any additional payroll might end up putting them in the red, and that they might have a shot to resign Maggs now, but adding any significant long-term payroll would kill that.

It can obviously be argued that adding a Kendall might help prevent a slump, but Kendall+Everett<<Maggs+Frank.

That would obviously suck, but if they end up throwing mostly the same team out there next year, that wouldn't be too bad. (Keep Maggs on a short contract, get a cheap vet #4 to replace ELo,possibly lose Val. unless he resigns cheap)

Frank the Tank
07-27-2004, 10:33 PM
During tonight's game, the Chairman made an appearance with Hawk and I got the idea the White Sox are not going to do anything special in acquiring what we need to get to the next level for the post season. In fact when he made the comment, and I'm paraphrasing here, "Kenny Williams is in charge of the baseball, and I write the checks...." I got the idea he tightened Kenny's leash. He also went on to say, "We just don't have as much money as Steinbrenner..." I don't know about you guys, but that sounds like they're throwing in the towel this year. What do you guys think? Also last week or the week before KW made was quoted in the Cubune as saying, "I know I said I want to win this year, but I want to win next year and the year after that too..." I think all three quotes sound like they're conceding. Any thoughts?
JR also said that "Money is not a problem with this ballclub". What I took from the interview is that money is not really an issue with the sox (as it might be with a small market ballclub such as the Brewers), but obviously he doesn't have the money to spend like a Steinbrenner.

Palehose13
07-27-2004, 10:34 PM
Of course Maggs and Frank are greater than Kendall and Everett. However I think this line up:

Kendall
Rowand
Lee
Konerko
Everett
Valentin
Crede
RF
Uribe

may give the Sox just enough offense, i.e., score more than four runs per game.

chisoxt
07-27-2004, 10:35 PM
I am not a "JR basher" like some, but I do remember KW making a comment something like "if attendance is up, then we'll have the money to make some moves". Granted, they did go and get Garcia and Everett, but with Frank and Maggs gone for most of (if not the rest) of the season I feel that they need to get another bat. The attendance has been there and will be there...if we continue to make a run. C'mon Kenny and Uncle Jer, make the move! A certain catcher in Pittsburgh looks nice.
The problem is, paying a players salary is just part of the battle. The big part is giving up something in return, And we ain't got much to give.

Palehose13
07-27-2004, 10:37 PM
The problem is, paying a players salary is just part of the battle. The big part is giving up something in return, And we ain't got much to give.
The cubs were able to fleece Pittsburgh last year, and from what I understand they want to get out of Kendall's contract. What do you think they would want?

TomParrish79
07-27-2004, 10:40 PM
I hope a move is made.

Frank the Tank
07-27-2004, 10:40 PM
I wouldn't mind KW trading away Sweeney or Anderson for Carlos Beltran. With the Maggs situation as it is, I feel very confident that we could sign Beltran to a long-term deal.

michned
07-27-2004, 10:44 PM
I wouldn't mind KW trading away Sweeney or Anderson for Carlos Beltran. With the Maggs situation as it is, I feel very confident that we could sign Beltran to a long-term deal.
Beltran = Boras = Forget About It

Palehose13
07-27-2004, 10:47 PM
Beltran = Boras = Forget About ItYeah, Boras scares me. I would love get Beltran and sign him long term and then move ARow to RF, but if we are gonna give up *top-notch* prospects I would rather give them up for someone like Kendall (who is signed thorugh 2007) than a rental Beltran.

michned
07-27-2004, 10:49 PM
During tonight's game, the Chairman made an appearance with Hawk...
This is either one of two things: he's posturing while KW works under the radar, or (more likely) he's going to use the revenue from the increased attendance this year to pay a nice dividend to the investors. Based on all that we know about him, what do you think it is?

Can't teach an old dog new tricks. Same old s***.

Frank the Tank
07-27-2004, 10:51 PM
Yeah, Boras scares me. I would love get Beltran and sign him long term and then move ARow to RF, but if we are gonna give up *top-notch* prospects I would rather give them up for someone like Kendall (who is signed thorugh 2007) than a rental Beltran.
I am pretty sure we could land Beltran long-term for right around what Maggs was looking for. If we give up one of our outfield prospects for one of the best outfielders in the game, who cares?

Palehose13
07-27-2004, 10:58 PM
I am pretty sure we could land Beltran long-term for right around what Maggs was looking for. If we give up one of our outfield prospects for one of the best outfielders in the game, who cares?
I'm with your thinking and am on board IF he can get signed. IMO, I think he will want and get a little more than Maggs.

Flight #24
07-27-2004, 11:05 PM
This is either one of two things: he's posturing while KW works under the radar, or (more likely) he's going to use the revenue from the increased attendance this year to pay a nice dividend to the investors. Based on all that we know about him, what do you think it is?

Can't teach an old dog new tricks. Same old s***.
Check your history rather than the rumor mill. Payroll increases & decreasea have always followed attendance. So if we get increased attendance and don't get a payroll increase, it'll be a unique event, not "Same old s***".

MushMouth
07-27-2004, 11:06 PM
During tonight's game, the Chairman made an appearance with Hawk and I got the idea the White Sox are not going to do anything special in acquiring what we need to get to the next level for the post season. In fact when he made the comment, and I'm paraphrasing here, "Kenny Williams is in charge of the baseball, and I write the checks...." I got the idea he tightened Kenny's leash. He also went on to say, "We just don't have as much money as Steinbrenner..." I don't know about you guys, but that sounds like they're throwing in the towel this year. What do you guys think? Also last week or the week before KW made was quoted in the Cubune as saying, "I know I said I want to win this year, but I want to win next year and the year after that too..." I think all three quotes sound like they're conceding. Any thoughts?
The team isn't going to quit, but we don't stand a chance even in this terrible division. We have the most disfunctional offense in history and frankly, Ozzie hasn't done a thing to make me think we'll stop swinging for the fences or get these guys to play with some fire.

Lip Man 1
07-27-2004, 11:17 PM
Mush:

You can't take a guy who has been swinging for the fences his entire life and suddenly turn him into a gap hitter who goes the other way. Now multiply that times five or six (when the Sox have a healthy Maggs and Frank) and you see Ozzie's dilemma.

Let's reserve judgement on Ozzie until the Sox get rid of the slow footed, station to staion, hope for the three run homer offense and get some diversity.

If things still don't get better then you can blame Ozzie.

Lip

michned
07-27-2004, 11:31 PM
Check your history rather than the rumor mill. Payroll increases & decreasea have always followed attendance. So if we get increased attendance and don't get a payroll increase, it'll be a unique event, not "Same old s***".
No, by "Same old s***" I'm talking about Uncle Jerry having a chance to show his fan base and the baseball world that he is serious about WINNING, instead of going on the air and explaining why he can't compete with other teams.

-Ed

Flight #24
07-27-2004, 11:44 PM
No, by "Same old s***" I'm talking about Uncle Jerry having a chance to show his fan base and the baseball world that he is serious about WINNING, instead of going on the air and explaining why he can't compete with other teams.

-Ed
(sigh)

By now, everyone knows that JR is serious about winning without running into the red.

Do you really expect him to virtually guarantee running in the red just to field a team that might still not win anything? I mean if Frank &/or Maggs come back you could argue that a Kendall makes us very strong WS contenders, but if they both miss the year, Kendall may not even get us in the playoffs.

It's called risk-reward.

bigfoot
07-27-2004, 11:49 PM
JR also said that "Money is not a problem with this ballclub". What I took from the interview is that money is not really an issue with the sox (as it might be with a small market ballclub such as the Brewers), but obviously he doesn't have the money to spend like a Steinbrenner.
Only the Pentagon can spend $ like Steinbrenner. Only he uses cash, not IOUs.

Brian26
07-28-2004, 12:15 AM
I wouldn't mind KW trading away Sweeney or Anderson for Carlos Beltran. With the Maggs situation as it is, I feel very confident that we could sign Beltran to a long-term deal.
Two words for you:

Scott Boras.

We might as well give Sweeney or Anderson away, because Beltran will be in Yankee pinstripes next year.

Brian26
07-28-2004, 12:16 AM
We have the most disfunctional offense in history and frankly, Ozzie hasn't done a thing to make me think we'll stop swinging for the fences or get these guys to play with some fire.
Tonight is really a spectacular example of this. Three solo homeruns as our only offense.

Iron Dragon
07-28-2004, 02:19 AM
(sigh)

By now, everyone knows that JR is serious about winning without running into the red.

Do you really expect him to virtually guarantee running in the red just to field a team that might still not win anything? I mean if Frank &/or Maggs come back you could argue that a Kendall makes us very strong WS contenders, but if they both miss the year, Kendall may not even get us in the playoffs.

It's called risk-reward.

So how serious can he really be then? The man's a multi-millionaire, owns 2 major sports franchises among other profitable ventures, but couldn't stand a $5-$10 million loss in order to at least make the playoffs, or actually win a playoff series, or <gasp> go to the World Series? With the team we have, another $10mil in payroll would go a long way. Go Sox!

Nellie_Fox
07-28-2004, 03:37 AM
So how serious can he really be then? The man's a multi-millionaire, owns 2 major sports franchises among other profitable ventures, but couldn't stand a $5-$10 million loss in order to at least make the playoffs, or actually win a playoff series, or <gasp> go to the World Series? With the team we have, another $10mil in payroll would go a long way. Go Sox!You crack me up. There are partners in the ownership. This is a business, not a hobby.

mmmmmbeeer
07-28-2004, 07:35 AM
(sigh)

By now, everyone knows that JR is serious about winning without running into the red.

Do you really expect him to virtually guarantee running in the red just to field a team that might still not win anything? I mean if Frank &/or Maggs come back you could argue that a Kendall makes us very strong WS contenders, but if they both miss the year, Kendall may not even get us in the playoffs.

It's called risk-reward.
Man, this is exactly the point I've been trying to drive home to sox fans I enounter. If Maggs and Thomas were still in the lineup, hell yeah, spend the money, give up the farm, and go for the gold. Well....they aren't in the lineup and more than likely WON'T be in the lineup. This team went from having two holes (BP and SP) to having four holes (BP, SP, Maggs, Frank), five if you want to throw in the recent ineptitude of Willie, Juan, and the merry-go-round catcher situation. This current team, even with a Beltran, will not go anywhere in the playoffs. If they spend their wad on Beltran, there are still numerous weaknesses on this team that will be exposed by teams like OAK, NYY, or BOS. I want to see KW stand pat, we can still win the division with what we've got, maybe just schnag a cheap BP arm. This is not a WS team, it'd take one heck of a deep farm system and $20M to get this team to WS worthy.

thepaulbowski
07-28-2004, 08:11 AM
Beltran = Boras = Forget About It
If Beltran gets what he & Boras are looking for, the team that signs him will have overpaid for his services, IMO.

bobj4400
07-28-2004, 09:36 AM
Can we stop the Beltran pipe dream? As someone wrote previously:

Beltran = Boras = no way in hell

Reinsdorf hates Boras. He will not deal with him. Beltran isnt coming here. End of story.

SpringfldFan
07-28-2004, 01:13 PM
Can we stop the Beltran pipe dream? As someone wrote previously:

Beltran = Boras = no way in hell

Reinsdorf hates Boras. He will not deal with him. Beltran isnt coming here. End of story.


Question: Does he hate Boras more then he loves the Sox fanbase???

WSox8404
07-28-2004, 01:18 PM
I've been a big proponent of the Attendance = revenue philosophy, but I wonder if with Frank & Maggs out, there's a concern that the team's going to slump and any additional payroll might end up putting them in the red, and that they might have a shot to resign Maggs now, but adding any significant long-term payroll would kill that.

It can obviously be argued that adding a Kendall might help prevent a slump, but Kendall+Everett<<Maggs+Frank.

That would obviously suck, but if they end up throwing mostly the same team out there next year, that wouldn't be too bad. (Keep Maggs on a short contract, get a cheap vet #4 to replace ELo,possibly lose Val. unless he resigns cheap)
Think of it this way. If we got a few players in here to help us stay in the race until Frank and Maggs got back, do you know how good we would be then? If we made the playoffs with all of the new guys AND Frank and Maggs we would surely be a force to recken with.

Iron Dragon
07-28-2004, 05:39 PM
You crack me up. There are partners in the ownership. This is a business, not a hobby.
Then there is no chance the Sox will win a WS until Reinsdorf sells the team.

Frater Perdurabo
07-28-2004, 05:45 PM
Mush:

You can't take a guy who has been swinging for the fences his entire life and suddenly turn him into a gap hitter who goes the other way. Now multiply that times five or six (when the Sox have a healthy Maggs and Frank) and you see Ozzie's dilemma.

Let's reserve judgement on Ozzie until the Sox get rid of the slow footed, station to staion, hope for the three run homer offense and get some diversity.

If things still don't get better then you can blame Ozzie.

Lip
Exactly. I'm beginning to believe Jerry Manuel was not the biggest problem with the 2003 Sox.

jfo go go sox
07-28-2004, 05:52 PM
I am not a "JR basher" like some, but I do remember KW making a comment something like "if attendance is up, then we'll have the money to make some moves". Granted, they did go and get Garcia and Everett, but with Frank and Maggs gone for most of (if not the rest) of the season I feel that they need to get another bat. The attendance has been there and will be there...if we continue to make a run. C'mon Kenny and Uncle Jer, make the move! A certain catcher in Pittsburgh looks nice.
And that's good to be above the fray in JR bashing. But this team is like burnt toast -- their cooked and it seems no matter how much attendance goes up -- their more than done with trades. Nothing to trade with -- no cash to give up.

joeynach
07-28-2004, 05:58 PM
During tonight's game, the Chairman made an appearance with Hawk and I got the idea the White Sox are not going to do anything special in acquiring what we need to get to the next level for the post season. In fact when he made the comment, and I'm paraphrasing here, "Kenny Williams is in charge of the baseball, and I write the checks...." I got the idea he tightened Kenny's leash. He also went on to say, "We just don't have as much money as Steinbrenner..." I don't know about you guys, but that sounds like they're throwing in the towel this year. What do you guys think? Also last week or the week before KW made was quoted in the Cubune as saying, "I know I said I want to win this year, but I want to win next year and the year after that too..." I think all three quotes sound like they're conceding. Any thoughts?
Im sorry but KW is right. If we cant win with what we have now then thats its. We have no depth on the bench nor in the minors for next year and future years. KW put all the eggs in 04's basket already and whatever happens happens. Right now we have some kids who might be ready by 06 if we are lucky. If we trade them away we have nothing, especially if we dont catch the twins, which he have a history of doing. Just face it when Maggs and Frank went down so did our season. We are built to mow through teams and espeically since we got evertt and garcia that would have put us over the top, however every now and then a team that would usually make it gets screwed over by injuries. Welcome to the 04 White Sox, we got bit.

Foulke29
07-28-2004, 06:05 PM
I wouldn't mind KW trading away Sweeney or Anderson for Carlos Beltran. With the Maggs situation as it is, I feel very confident that we could sign Beltran to a long-term deal.
No offense dude, but your confidence has no foundation. Boras is Beltran's agent, and he hates JR and the Sox b/c we refused to give Jeff "I'm a Sucky Punk" Weaver a huge signing bonus - forcing him to sit out a season to enter in the next draft.

If you have any doubts of how much Boras hates JR and the Sox, please go back and review KW's attempt to simply set up a meeting with Boras - only to be locked out of all discussions.

Beltran wouldn't sign with the Sox next year if we offered him Manny money.

Nellie_Fox
07-29-2004, 01:28 AM
Then there is no chance the Sox will win a WS until Reinsdorf sells the team.Blah, blah, blah. My point was that no ownership should be expected to lose money for a chance at winning. I say again: it's a business, not a hobby.

And for all you "Reinsdorf sell" folks, it has been asked here before, but it bears repeating. Who do you expect to step up and buy the team and then spend their own money (beyond revenue) to try to win? Please name this benevolent soul? There are only so many Mark Cubans out there, crazy enough to be willing to go into the red for their own entertainment, and I haven't heard of one wanting the Sox.

Iron Dragon
07-29-2004, 05:06 PM
Blah, blah, blah. My point was that no ownership should be expected to lose money for a chance at winning. I say again: it's a business, not a hobby.

And for all you "Reinsdorf sell" folks, it has been asked here before, but it bears repeating. Who do you expect to step up and buy the team and then spend their own money (beyond revenue) to try to win? Please name this benevolent soul? There are only so many Mark Cubans out there, crazy enough to be willing to go into the red for their own entertainment, and I haven't heard of one wanting the Sox.
Blah, blah, blah, huh? Well, I guess you're ok with losing then. As for me, I'm tired of it. It was posted on this board that payroll last season was about $53 million. It was also said the Sox made $12-13 million in profit. Now, attendance is up 20% this season, which comes to about 5000/game, and at an average of $30/ticket over 81 games, this comes to just over $12 million. So, not including concessions, parking, etc., the projected revenue is about $75 million. What's the payroll now? $65 million? Hm. Who's "serious" about winning again? Oh wait, we have to appease the other partners in the ownership first...

Flight #24
07-29-2004, 05:51 PM
Blah, blah, blah, huh? Well, I guess you're ok with losing then. As for me, I'm tired of it. It was posted on this board that payroll last season was about $53 million. It was also said the Sox made $12-13 million in profit. Now, attendance is up 20% this season, which comes to about 5000/game, and at an average of $30/ticket over 81 games, this comes to just over $12 million. So, not including concessions, parking, etc., the projected revenue is about $75 million. What's the payroll now? $65 million? Hm. Who's "serious" about winning again? Oh wait, we have to appease the other partners in the ownership first...
Ummm...payroll is currently at about 65 mil. At beginning of the season, it was about 63mil (which based on the $53mil 2003 and reported $12mil profit woudl be about break even). We didnt' get much savings on Koch, so adding in Freddy's $$$ we're right about at 65mil.

As for next season, we're currently slated for a total of additions of $8mil (Garcia), $10mil(assorted raises), $4mil (Everett) and subtractions of Koch (6mil), Val (5mil), ELo ($mil), Maggs (14mil).

8 + 10 +4 - 6 - 5 - 4 - 14 = -7mil, so $7mil before any payroll increase.

Let's see what they do with the 7-17mil (assuming 10mil in payroll increase) before we go nuts. They may not want to deal for Kendall or a similar high-priced player because they tihnk they can still resign Maggs, leaving somewhere between 3 & 7 mil to replace Valentin, ELo, and get assorted help(assuming he gets 10-14).

Similarly, they may not sign Beltran because if Bora$$ wants him to get $15-$16mil, they may figure the team is better off getting multiple players for that like Clement ($7mil), a reliever ($3mil), & Lo Duca ($6mil).

Iron Dragon
07-30-2004, 01:31 AM
Thanks, Flight. I just hope they do something! Go Sox!

gosox41
07-30-2004, 09:32 AM
Blah, blah, blah, huh? Well, I guess you're ok with losing then. As for me, I'm tired of it. It was posted on this board that payroll last season was about $53 million. It was also said the Sox made $12-13 million in profit. Now, attendance is up 20% this season, which comes to about 5000/game, and at an average of $30/ticket over 81 games, this comes to just over $12 million. So, not including concessions, parking, etc., the projected revenue is about $75 million. What's the payroll now? $65 million? Hm. Who's "serious" about winning again? Oh wait, we have to appease the other partners in the ownership first...

I wouldn't believe everything you hear about making a profit.

Also, based on your math of $30 a ticket (which is probably wrong but I haven't sat down to do the math yet since they have different prices for different games) is probably way off. But even if they made that $12 mill extra, guess how much they raised their payroll from last year to this year? And that was before taking on Freddie's salary.


Bob