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View Full Version : Will Carrol on Bone marrow edema


Dadawg_77
07-26-2004, 02:34 PM
Bone marrow edema (http://www.hopkins-arthritis.som.jhmi.edu/news-archive/2003/bone_edema_oa.html) isn't a diagnosis heard every day. In baseball, it's now a singular event, afflicting Magglio Ordonez (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/pecota/ordonma01.php), who just returned from knee surgery. Also called "transient osteoporosis," the edema is not just a short-term problem for the Sox' outfielder, it's also bad in the long-term; BME is a predictor of serious arthritis, gait imbalances, and increased risk for fractures near the affected bones. It's not good for the White Sox, for Ordonez, or Ordonez's agent, but it's not life-threatening, as some have feared. It could be managed in a way that could allow Ordonez back on the field, but as there is nothing with which to compare this, I have no way of putting a timeline on it.
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=3261

SoxxoS
07-26-2004, 02:44 PM
Here is something really profound:

This injury will either cause us NOT to sign him...Or it could mean we can now afford him...Hmmmm

Wanne
07-26-2004, 02:49 PM
That's high risk to give a guy with this type of unknown injury that kind of money. As much as I hate to say it...I think Maggs is done in Chicago. He may come back full strenght in which everyone will regret not signing him. My wish is to throw his money at Beltran.

Randar68
07-26-2004, 02:52 PM
My wish is to throw his money at Beltran.
I'm with you on that 100%. Beltran in CF and Rowand/Timo in RF makes the offense AND defense/pitching improved all the way around. If Brian Anderson makes it, that's basically 2 strong-armed CF'ers in the OF, and would cover a TON of ground, regardless of your LF'er...

Tekijawa
07-26-2004, 02:52 PM
My wish is to throw his money at Beltran. Which is why we haven't traded for him, nor do we intend to trade for him, as the team who holds him at the end of the season is the only team guaranteed NOT to sign him!

hawkjt
07-26-2004, 02:59 PM
Forget Beltran- Boras is his agent and is seeking 150-200 million. Sox will not be in the bidding.

sendimjoey
07-26-2004, 03:01 PM
Putting aside the fact that he's a multimillionaire already, I do feel bad for Maggs. You can tell by his actions that he badly wants to play this year, and I don't think it's just to play for a new contract. I think he genuinely likes his teammates and want to play well to help them all achieve something great. (Of course, he doesn't like them quite as much as the difference between the Sox's offer and Vlad money.) Even if he ends up elsewhere, I wish Ordonez the best, except if he's playing the Sox.

Will the Scott Boras effect help Beltran or hurt him? A lot of teams have joined JR in being wary of dealing with Boras. Just a thought.

SoxxoS
07-26-2004, 03:01 PM
Which is why we haven't traded for him, nor do we intend to trade for him, as the team who holds him at the end of the season is the only team guaranteed NOT to sign him!
Is that new color we made up?

SoxxoS
07-26-2004, 03:03 PM
Putting aside the fact that he's a multimillionaire already, I do feel bad for Maggs. You can tell by his actions that he badly wants to play this year, and I don't think it's just to play for a new contract. I think he genuinely likes his teammates and want to play well to help them all achieve something great. (Of course, he doesn't like them quite as much as the difference between the Sox's offer and Vlad money.) Even if he ends up elsewhere, I wish Ordonez the best, except if he's playing the Sox.

Will the Scott Boras effect help Beltran or hurt him? A lot of teams have joined JR in being wary of dealing with Boras. Just a thought.
Should have signed when you had the chance...is that extra 5% (in millions) REALLY going to make that big of deal?

kjhanson
07-26-2004, 03:04 PM
Forget Beltran- Boras is his agent and is seeking 150-200 million. Sox will not be in the bidding.
The only way Beltran gets 150-200 million is if he signs for 15 years. Sorry buddy, it's not happening. 4 years, 55 million is about what he'll end up signing for.

Mohoney
07-26-2004, 04:25 PM
The only way Beltran gets 150-200 million is if he signs for 15 years. Sorry buddy, it's not happening. 4 years, 55 million is about what he'll end up signing for.

$150-200 million is way too high, I agree with you there, but what you're offering is PEANUTS! He will get WAY more than that.

Randar68
07-26-2004, 04:35 PM
$150-200 million is way too high, I agree with you there, but what you're offering is PEANUTS! He will get WAY more than that.
5 years, 16 million a piece? Take Maggs 14 million and bump it a tad and I think the Sox could actually be a player if they wanted.

Mickster
07-26-2004, 04:40 PM
Forget Beltran- Boras is his agent and is seeking 150-200 million. Sox will not be in the bidding.
No way will Beltran get $150-200M regardless of what Scott BorASS is asking.

I like Beltran a lot. I even like him at $15-16MM per year. There is no way, with the current state of baseball, that Boras gets that kind of money for Beltran.

What's that old saying: Fool me once, shame on you.........

Win1ForMe
07-26-2004, 04:55 PM
He may come back full strenght in which everyone will regret not signing him. My wish is to throw his money at Beltran.
Well, the problem is we already spent his money on Garcia/Everett. We don't have any more money to throw around.

jabrch
07-26-2004, 04:58 PM
Well, the problem is we already spent his money on Garcia/Everett. We don't have any more money to throw around.
How do you know that?

Win1ForMe
07-26-2004, 05:06 PM
How do you know that?
You're right, I don't. I should have prefaced my comments by saying, "If JR doesn't intend to raise payroll..." Judging by today's Offman report (which obviously could be wrong) JR will be doing no such thing.

sendimjoey
07-26-2004, 05:19 PM
You're right, I don't. I should have prefaced my comments by saying, "If JR doesn't intend to raise payroll..." Judging by today's Offman report (which obviously could be wrong) JR will be doing no such thing.
That report could simply mean that JR isn't willing to add more payroll this year, if the report is correct. It doesn't necessarily mean that JR won't approve a bigger payroll for next year.

Dadawg_77
07-26-2004, 05:21 PM
Well Mags is making 14 million this year so if Beltran is added at 12-14 million, payroll stay roughly the same.

Win1ForMe
07-26-2004, 05:24 PM
Well Mags is making 14 million this year so if Beltran is added at 12-14 million, payroll stay roughly the same.
The 12-14 million is already earmarked for Everett/Garcia. That was my earlier point.

Huisj
07-26-2004, 05:26 PM
carlos beltran is a career .286 hitter. he is hitting .270 this year. whoever thinks he'll get $150 million is off his rocker. he's real good, and he's really valuable in more than one way, but he's been hyped as if he's the best player in the game lately.

Mickster
07-26-2004, 05:29 PM
The 12-14 million is already earmarked for Everett/Garcia. That was my earlier point.
Not necessarily. We will not have Koch's $6M nor E-LOs $4.5M, nor Valentin's $5M salaries on the payroll. Granted we should probably re-sign Valentin for $8M for 2 years, but there is still a $2M savings there.

Flight #24
07-26-2004, 05:36 PM
Not necessarily. We will not have Koch's $6M nor E-LOs $4.5M, nor Valentin's $5M salaries on the payroll. Granted we should probably re-sign Valentin for $8M for 2 years, but there is still a $2M savings there.
Let's not forget, that JR has already raised payroll for this season via the addition of Garcia, and that we started the season "overbudget" with $63-65mil. He may well raise payroll or maintain it at the current level for next year, meaning that increased attendance & revenues go to Everett/Garcia, and Maggs, Koch, Elo, etc frees up cash for general raises (IIRC, on the order of $10mil), and other additions. That would be more consistent with historical patterns of attendance & payroll.

Win1ForMe
07-26-2004, 06:19 PM
Not necessarily. We will not have Koch's $6M nor E-LOs $4.5M, nor Valentin's $5M salaries on the payroll. Granted we should probably re-sign Valentin for $8M for 2 years, but there is still a $2M savings there.Ok, I will do my best to clear up the payroll situation. After this season the following contracts come off our payroll: Maggs ($14 M), Jose ($5 M), ELo ($3.5 M), Koch ($ 6 M). Or about $28.5 M in total.

*Assuming* payroll stays about the same, here's how that money will be divided up:
Player raises - Buehrle ($2.25M), Garland ($2 M arb. increase), Konerko ($.75M), Lee ($1.5 M), Marte ($1 M), Shingo ($1.75 M), Frank ($2.0 M), as well as possible arbitration for Uribe and Schoe somewhere in the neighborhood of $1.5 M in raises for both. Ok, so that's about $12.75 M in raises/arbitration increases.

Now let's also add contracts which don't factor in to this year's payroll: Garcia ($8 M), Everett ($4 M). $12 M total.

Doing the math, of the $28.5 M we have to spend for next year, $24.75 is already allocated (of course the Sox can always release players heading to arbitration or avoid exercising a team option on Shingo, so the number isn't definite).

By my count, and once again *assuming* payroll stays the same, the Sox would have about $3.75 M to spend. Keep in mind though they still would have to find replacements for Valentin (or re-sign him) and Loaiza (or re-sign him). Doesn't seem like there'd be money for Beltran unless we push the payroll up to $80 M or decide to trade off certain players on the current roster.

Mickster
07-26-2004, 06:25 PM
Ok, I will do my best to clear up the payroll situation. After this season the following contracts come off our payroll: Maggs ($14 M), Jose ($5 M), ELo ($3.5 M), Koch ($ 6 M). Or about $28.5 M in total.

*Assuming* payroll stays about the same, here's how that money will be divided up:
Player raises - Buehrle ($2.25M), Garland ($2 M arb. increase), Konerko ($.75M), Lee ($1.5 M), Marte ($1 M), Shingo ($1.75 M), Frank ($2.0 M), as well as possible arbitration for Uribe and Schoe somewhere in the neighborhood of $1.5 M in raises for both. Ok, so that's about $12.75 M in raises/arbitration increases.

Now let's also add contracts which don't factor in to this year's payroll: Garcia ($8 M), Everett ($4 M). $12 M total.

Doing the math, of the $28.5 M we have to spend for next year, $24.75 is already allocated (of course the Sox can always release players heading to arbitration or avoid exercising a team option on Shingo, so the number isn't definite).

By my count, and once again *assuming* payroll stays the same, the Sox would have about $3.75 M to spend. Keep in mind though they still would have to find replacements for Valentin (or re-sign him) and Loaiza (or re-sign him). Doesn't seem like there'd be money for Beltran unless we push the payroll up to $80 M or decide to trade off certain players on the current roster.Why would you assume that payroll will stay the same? Has payroll increased each year for the past 4 years? Has attendance increased close to 20% this year alone? Have the Sox gone out on a limb and stated that payroll is directly involved with revenue and attendance? Why, then, would you assume that payroll will stay the same? It went up something like $7M last year alone, and we didn't even have a major attendance boost.....

Win1ForMe
07-26-2004, 06:30 PM
Why would you assume that payroll will stay the same? Has payroll increased each year for the past 4 years? Has attendance increased close to 20% this year alone? Have the Sox gone out on a limb and stated that payroll is directly involved with revenue and attendance? Why, then, would you assume that payroll will stay the same? It went up something like $7M last year alone, and we didn't even have a major attendance boost.....Payroll increased from 2000 to 2001, decreased for 2002, stayed the same in 2003, and increased for 2004. And we did have a major attendance boost last year, bigger than this year at least.

EDIT: Let me add that during these increases payroll never reached $70 M. So assuming the payroll would increase beyond $70 M is IMO very foolish. But keep dreaming. :rolleyes:

Chisoxfn
07-26-2004, 07:30 PM
I'm with you on that 100%. Beltran in CF and Rowand/Timo in RF makes the offense AND defense/pitching improved all the way around. If Brian Anderson makes it, that's basically 2 strong-armed CF'ers in the OF, and would cover a TON of ground, regardless of your LF'er... Couldn't agree more Randar.

Palehose13
07-26-2004, 07:58 PM
Are we looking at the end of Magglio's career?

beckett21
07-26-2004, 08:34 PM
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=3261Thanks for the links Dawg. Interesting reading on bone marrow edema.

What I found interesting was that they still do not know which comes first: the bone marrow edema or the cartilage damage. Or, in other words, does the bone marrow edema lead to cartilage breakdown which leads to arthritis, or does the cartilage damage lead to bone marrow edema which leads to further breakdown of the joint. Apparently it is not definitive.

Kind of like which came first, the chicken or the egg.

If you notice, in the study cited the patients were all over the age of 45 or 50 (average age 66). So the study is really examining the long-term progressive effects of the arthritis, and not really examining an acute injury type of scenario. So in Maggs' case we are dealing with what would fall into the category of traumatic osteoarthritis, as a result of the injury or trauma. In the study, they are dealing with the long-term trauma of daily wear-and-tear, essentially. Little bit different scenario, but the take-home points are the same.

Going by their numbers, this gives a 25% (10 out of 40 lateral lesions) to 36% (27 out of 75 medial lesions) chance that the arthritis will progress over the next 30 months, if I am reading their numbers correctly. (and all those numbers were making my head spin!) But again this is dealing with people who have already established a diagnosis of osteoarthritis, not to mention they are older so they have less healing potential. On the flip side, Maggs puts greater stress on his joints than the average person. So it is hard to draw an exact comparison here.

Certainly Maggs is at a much higher risk of arthritis now, but I still think it would be hard to predict just how much this will affect him in the next few years. But undoubtedly the heightened risk is there, which is why they are being so cautious. All they can do now is wait and see, only with time will anyone know.

In my opinion this is not going to be the end of his career, but it may end up taking a few years off the end of his career or lead to him becoming a DH eventually. Just my opinion though.

MisterB
07-26-2004, 08:34 PM
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=3261Wow. This thread leapt off topic pretty quick. Getting back to the main point-

I've done a little digging on the medical side and found a few things. Bone marrow edema is a condition triggered by some other damage to the outer layers of bone. When found in conjunction with a physical trauma (ACL tears commonly cause them), it is usually referred to as a 'bone bruise', but it can be found with other conditions such as osteoarthritis.

The diagnosis of transient osteoporosis is strange as it: 1) occurs rather infrequently among the population, 2) mostly occurs in the hip, and 3) is overwhelmingly found in men over the age of 40 or in pregnant women in their 3rd trimester. Good news (for Magglio in the long-term, anyway) is that even transient osteoporosis tends to clear up in a month or two (probably explains the 4 - 8 week estimated recovery time)

I'll do more research at work tomorrow (I have access to medical journals). Anyone interested in a very dry read can check this (http://www.isakos.com/innovations/niall.html) out.

beckett21
07-26-2004, 08:35 PM
Wow. This thread leapt off topic pretty quick. Getting back to the main point-

I've done a little digging on the medical side and found a few things. Bone marrow edema is a condition triggered by some other damage to the outer layers of bone. When found in conjunction with a physical trauma (ACL tears commonly cause them), it is usually referred to as a 'bone bruise', but it can be found with other conditions such as osteoarthritis.

The diagnosis of transient osteoporosis is strange as it: 1) occurs rather infrequently among the population, 2) mostly occurs in the hip, and 3) is overwhelmingly found in men over the age of 40 or in pregnant women in their 3rd trimester. Good news (for Magglio in the long-term, anyway) is that even transient osteoporosis tends to clear up in a month or two (probably explains the 4 - 8 week estimated recovery time)

I'll do more research at work tomorrow (I have access to medical journals). Anyone interested in a very dry read can check this (http://www.isakos.com/innovations/niall.html) out.
Well done.