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View Full Version : If we dont win this year, is it time to break it up?


habibharu
07-26-2004, 11:36 AM
i have been thinking about this for a while now. We have had the same exact core of guys for the past 4 years, and havent won jack. valentin, thomas,ordonez,lee,konerko, and crede have been our hitting core for so long now. is it time to get rid of some of those guys if we dont win this year?

Tekijawa
07-26-2004, 11:37 AM
I'm almost positive that Maggs will be gone...

habibharu
07-26-2004, 11:38 AM
I'm almost positive that Maggs will be gone... yes, i know. but i was talking about paulie, jose, and hurt.

Fungo
07-26-2004, 11:40 AM
yes, i know. but i was talking about paulie, jose, and hurt.Thomas needs to finish his career with the White Sox. But to answer the question, yes.

WSox8404
07-26-2004, 11:46 AM
I would probably say no, because we are only a good catcher, one more starter, and one more bullpen guy away from being possibly the best team in the bigs. And when I say catcher, I mean Jason Kendal because we also need a leadoff hitter, and he is one.

Baby Fisk
07-26-2004, 11:47 AM
No!

habibharu
07-26-2004, 11:49 AM
I would probably say no, because we are only a good catcher, one more starter, and one more bullpen guy away from being possibly the best team in the bigs. And when I say catcher, I mean Jason Kendal because we also need a leadoff hitter, and he is one. best team in the bigs?!!! we only have two SP! loaiza and sho suck! they are nothing better than a #5 starter! and we dont know what we are gonna get from garland! and 2b isnt shored up either.

Soxzilla
07-26-2004, 11:50 AM
best team in the bigs?!!! we only have two SP! loaiza and sho suck! they are nothing better than a #5 starter! and we dont know what we are gonna get from garland! and 2b isnt shored up either.
Loaiza and schoe do not suck. Where do you come up with this information.

habibharu
07-26-2004, 11:51 AM
Loaiza and schoe do not suck. Where do you come up with this information. do you watch the games?

BearSox
07-26-2004, 11:51 AM
NO NO NO NO NO NO People! We've been rebuilding for 40 years, mabye its time to buy into KW's philosophy of do what it takes to win now! You keep our star players here and with increased attendance this year you do whatever you can to add more players to put the best team on the field!!!! No more rebuilding! You don't get rid of guys like Carlos, PK, and Valentin unless you have someone ready to step in and put up the same numbers which there isn't that person. Not to mention you don't dump them in baseball when they're in the middle of their contract, this isn't the NFL! Magglio can be understandable since we've tried to sign him and he won't take the offer and his injury woes this year. But don't start talking about dumping the whole team. As a White Sox fan i'm hoping that we're done rebuilding and for years to come now we just retool but not rebuild.

habibharu
07-26-2004, 11:54 AM
NO NO NO NO NO NO People! We've been rebuilding for 40 years, mabye its time to buy into KW's philosophy of do what it takes to win now! You keep our star players here and with increased attendance this year you do whatever you can to add more players to put the best team on the field!!!! No more rebuilding! You don't get rid of guys like Carlos, PK, and Valentin unless you have someone ready to step in and put up the same numbers which there isn't that person. Not to mention you don't dump them in baseball when they're in the middle of their contract, this isn't the NFL! Magglio can be understandable since we've tried to sign him and he won't take the offer and his injury woes this year. But don't start talking about dumping the whole team. As a White Sox fan i'm hoping that we're done rebuilding and for years to come now we just retool but not rebuild. but we have been trying that philosophy for 4 years! dont rebuild, keep the same players and just retool! we havent won anything! what makes you think that it will work next year?

voodoochile
07-26-2004, 12:08 PM
but we have been trying that philosophy for 4 years! dont rebuild, keep the same players and just retool! we havent won anything! what makes you think that it will work next year?
Better tools?

WSox8404
07-26-2004, 12:14 PM
best team in the bigs?!!! we only have two SP! loaiza and sho suck! they are nothing better than a #5 starter! and we dont know what we are gonna get from garland! and 2b isnt shored up either.
Yes best team in the bigs. If we get another quality type number 2 starter, we will have three lights out starters. We can get by with two mediocre starters. How many teams in the bigs have three lights out guys as starters? Not even the Yankees have that. So in otherwords, the only way to win is to have 5 number ones, right? I don't think that will, or can, happen anytime soon.

habibharu
07-26-2004, 12:16 PM
Yes best team in the bigs. If we get another quality type number 2 starter, we will have three lights out starters. We can get by with two mediocre starters. How many teams in the bigs have three lights out guys as starters? Not even the Yankees have that. So in otherwords, the only way to win is to have 5 number ones, right? I don't think that will, or can, happen anytime soon.and how exactly do you want us to get that #2 type starter? and what about 3b, 2b, and RF?

voodoochile
07-26-2004, 12:19 PM
and how exactly do you want us to get that #2 type starter? and what about 3b, 2b, and RF?
Crede, Uribe and Everett...

SOXSINCE'70
07-26-2004, 12:19 PM
NO NO NO NO NO NO People! We've been rebuilding for 40 years, mabye its time to buy into KW's philosophy of do what it takes to win now! You keep our star players here and with increased attendance this year you do whatever you can to add more players to put the best team on the field!!!! No more rebuilding! You don't get rid of guys like Carlos, PK, and Valentin unless you have someone ready to step in and put up the same numbers which there isn't that person. Not to mention you don't dump them in baseball when they're in the middle of their contract, this isn't the NFL! Magglio can be understandable since we've tried to sign him and he won't take the offer and his injury woes this year. But don't start talking about dumping the whole team. As a White Sox fan i'm hoping that we're done rebuilding and for years to come now we just retool but not rebuild.I agree.Don't rip the whole thing apart.If Maggs leaves,good riddance.Use that money to get some bullpen help,a 3rd or 4th starter,or possibly a LEFT handed bat to offset all the righties in this lineup.I don't know how many more years Sox fans can continue to cry the sCrUBS credo:"Wait till next year".I'm impatient.Why not now?? Or in the next 2 years??:angry:

gosox41
07-26-2004, 12:29 PM
Loaiza and schoe do not suck. Where do you come up with this information.
They may not suck but they are not good. And if they keep pitching like they have the last 7-8 starts (or 1/4 of their season) then they will quickly fall into the suck category.


Bob

gosox41
07-26-2004, 12:31 PM
i have been thinking about this for a while now. We have had the same exact core of guys for the past 4 years, and havent won jack. valentin, thomas,ordonez,lee,konerko, and crede have been our hitting core for so long now. is it time to get rid of some of those guys if we dont win this year?
Perhaps the better question is if the Sox don't make the playoffs this year, will KW still have a job here next year? The next question after that is does he deserve to?

My guess is Frank and Magglio getting injured saved KW's job if the Sox don't make the playoffs.

But to address this post, I would seriously look at making major changes (though Frank stays no matter what). Of course I said this last season, but we'll see what happens.



Bob

Nick@Nite
07-26-2004, 01:01 PM
No

JRIG
07-26-2004, 01:04 PM
Loaiza and schoe do not suck. Where do you come up with this information.
OK, what would you call a pitcher who has given up 46 runs in his last 10 starts -- 59 2/3 innings pitched (6.94 ERA) ?

infohawk
07-26-2004, 01:06 PM
Next year will be interesting because Kenny may have some money to spend on free agents. He basically inherited much of this team from Schueler and hasn't had much flexibility to make many fundamental changes to the composition of the club. He has thus far attempted to augment what they already have.

I believe changes are coming no matter what happens this season. I still see this team being transitioned from a slugging team to a pitching, speed and defense team. My hunch is that Kenny would like to more effectively balance the payroll and invest more money in quality pitching and roster depth. The club has already shed Koch's salary and will have to decide what to do with Magglio's. Decisions will also have to be made on Valentin and Konerko, although Konerko is signed for one more year. Loaiza is being payed $3.5 million this year, which is the last year of his contract. Here is the salary dedicated to these four players:

Ordonez - $14 (final year)
Valentin - $5 (final year)
Loaiza - $3.5 (final year)
Konerko - $8.75 in 2005

Kenny could shed roughly $22.5 million from the payroll by not re-signing Ordonez, Valentin or Loaiza. He could shed a total of $31.25 million if he traded Konerko for prospects (like an Edwin Jackson from the Dodgers). Obviously, these savings don't take into account increases in the salaries of other players, but still represents a substantial percentage of payroll. Keep in mind that several players are making at or near the major league minimum salary of approximately $300,000 (Crede, Harris, Uribe, Rowand, Cotts, Adkins, Burke, Gload). Some players are also signed to one-year contracts (Takatsu, Politte, Alomar). Kenny should have both money, roster flexibility and additional picks from any free agent losses. The picks, however, would be contingent on whether or not the team decided to offer arbitration to the potential free agents.

I think Kenny has been guiding the club to the point where he would have the flexibility to make some fundamental changes. I'm sure he knows that this upcoming offseason will present him with his opportunity. This is another reason he is probably disinclined to go get a player like Jason Kendall. Look at his contract:

2004 - $8 million
2005 - $10 million
2006 - $11 million
2007 - $13 million

If the team needs another OBP guy who doesn't hit for much power, someone like Frank Catalanotto (OBP of .374) could be acquired for much, much less.

I wouldn't be surprised to see Kenny acquire one or two successful pitchers on the free agent market to augment a rotation with Garcia and Buehrle. He may still have enough left over to sign or trade for a position player or two.

nasox
07-26-2004, 01:33 PM
:threadsucksWow

gosox41
07-26-2004, 02:16 PM
Next year will be interesting because Kenny may have some money to spend on free agents. He basically inherited much of this team from Schueler and hasn't had much flexibility to make many fundamental changes to the composition of the club. He has thus far attempted to augment what they already have.

I believe changes are coming no matter what happens this season. I still see this team being transitioned from a slugging team to a pitching, speed and defense team. My hunch is that Kenny would like to more effectively balance the payroll and invest more money in quality pitching and roster depth. The club has already shed Koch's salary and will have to decide what to do with Magglio's. Decisions will also have to be made on Valentin and Konerko, although Konerko is signed for one more year. Loaiza is being payed $3.5 million this year, which is the last year of his contract. Here is the salary dedicated to these four players:

Ordonez - $14 (final year)
Valentin - $5 (final year)
Loaiza - $3.5 (final year)
Konerko - $8.75 in 2005

Kenny could shed roughly $22.5 million from the payroll by not re-signing Ordonez, Valentin or Loaiza. He could shed a total of $31.25 million if he traded Konerko for prospects (like an Edwin Jackson from the Dodgers). Obviously, these savings don't take into account increases in the salaries of other players, but still represents a substantial percentage of payroll. Keep in mind that several players are making at or near the major league minimum salary of approximately $300,000 (Crede, Harris, Uribe, Rowand, Cotts, Adkins, Burke, Gload). Some players are also signed to one-year contracts (Takatsu, Politte, Alomar). Kenny should have both money, roster flexibility and additional picks from any free agent losses. The picks, however, would be contingent on whether or not the team decided to offer arbitration to the potential free agents.

I think Kenny has been guiding the club to the point where he would have the flexibility to make some fundamental changes. I'm sure he knows that this upcoming offseason will present him with his opportunity. This is another reason he is probably disinclined to go get a player like Jason Kendall. Look at his contract:

2004 - $8 million
2005 - $10 million
2006 - $11 million
2007 - $13 million

If the team needs another OBP guy who doesn't hit for much power, someone like Frank Catalanotto (OBP of .374) could be acquired for much, much less.

I wouldn't be surprised to see Kenny acquire one or two successful pitchers on the free agent market to augment a rotation with Garcia and Buehrle. He may still have enough left over to sign or trade for a position player or two.

The Sox had a $34 mill. payroll in 2000. A lot of those excess signings are due to his decisions and not Schu signing these guys to a lot of long term contracts.


Bob

MarqSox
07-26-2004, 02:44 PM
As long as we reside in the AL Central, we should NEVER be rebuilding. Cleveland's late-90s dominance was an aberration, and Minnesota simply does not have the revenue base to sustain a good team for more than a couple years. Kansas City and Detroit may pop up now and then, but, as the Royals have proven this year, that will be a fluke if it happens.

Bottom line is, the White Sox are the only team in this division that has the financial means to be a major player year in, year out. Hell, since we joined this division, there have only been two years (1998, 1999) where we never really had a chance to win it.

This probably sounds pretty ironic since we're the only team in the division that hasn't won a pennant in the last 20 years, but dammit, we're the Goliath in this division. Let's start acting like it!

infohawk
07-26-2004, 02:50 PM
"The Sox had a $34 mill. payroll in 2000. A lot of those excess signings are due to his decisions and not Schu signing these guys to a lot of long term contracts."

I'm not trying to be critical of Schueler or insinuate that he saddled the Sox with bad contracts. My point is that if KW decides to make serious changes to the club while still remaining competitive, this offseason probably presents his best opportunity with the number of contracts he can clear off the books. Kenny's first order of business after he took over was to lock up players that had just produced a 95-win season. Reasonable enough. I just meant to say that the core of this team was inherited from Schueler. Some of the contract extensions/trades looked good following the 2000 season, but have not paid the expected dividends with respect to team wins. The Sox have been built on power hitting, and this offseason presents KW with the option of shifting the entire philosophy of the club without having to embark upon a "rebuilding" project with inexperienced young players. The team could find itself with a great deal of cash to spend on the free agent market to acquire pitching or whatever else they decide they need. An added advantage is that the free agent pool has become somewhat of a "buyer's market" over the last couple of seasons.

Soxzilla
07-26-2004, 03:07 PM
OK, what would you call a pitcher who has given up 46 runs in his last 10 starts -- 59 2/3 innings pitched (6.94 ERA) ?
A pitcher in need of some retooling.

I'd hate to think a pitcher that is 9-5 sucks.

SoxOnTop
07-26-2004, 04:08 PM
but we have been trying that philosophy for 4 years! dont rebuild, keep the same players and just retool! we havent won anything! what makes you think that it will work next year?
If you are looking to blow up the team every 4 years, you should probably start rooting for the Brewers or Pirates.

It's Shu and JR's plan to rebuild that helped set this franchise back significantly in the minds of the Chicago public and helped keep fans away. When the Indians posed a threat, did we rise to the challenge? No, we sold the farm and hid until they passed their prime. And now no one in Chicago trusts Sox ownership. And the Giants who gave us all those players have been in the playoffs or in contention every year since then. You don't rebuild. You reload.

Dadawg_77
07-26-2004, 04:28 PM
If you are looking to blow up the team every 4 years, you should probably start rooting for the Brewers or Pirates.

It's Shu and JR's plan to rebuild that helped set this franchise back significantly in the minds of the Chicago public and helped keep fans away. When the Indians posed a threat, did we rise to the challenge? No, we sold the farm and hid until they passed their prime. And now no one in Chicago trusts Sox ownership. And the Giants who gave us all those players have been in the playoffs or in contention every year since then. You don't rebuild. You reload.
While I find somewhat silly to talk about next year while .5 games out, he wasn't talking about a white flag trade. What he is talking about is, has the window of opportunity passed by this team. If it has and this team doesn't make it to the post season, it may be time to rebuild.

jeremyb1
07-26-2004, 04:34 PM
I think it's all downhill from this season but I'm not sure that's a reason to break the team up. We really don't have a ton in the way of a future as our minor league system is rather depleted at this point so we might as well give it another season or two before we pack things up.

habibharu
07-26-2004, 05:28 PM
While I find somewhat silly to talk about next year while .5 games out, he wasn't talking about a white flag trade. What he is talking about is, has the window of opportunity passed by this team. If it has and this team doesn't make it to the post season, it may be time to rebuild. exactly what i meant. and if we dont make the playoffs this year: :KW :hawk "HE GAWN!"

habibharu
07-26-2004, 05:29 PM
My guess is Frank and Magglio getting injured saved KW's job if the Sox don't make the playoffs.
no way! frank and magglio are not an excuse! if we dont make the playoffs KW better be gone!

jabrch
07-26-2004, 05:35 PM
What a bunch of nonsense

MarqSox
07-26-2004, 06:24 PM
exactly what i meant. and if we dont make the playoffs this year: :KW :hawk "HE GAWN!"I disagree completely. Kenny Williams has made some mistakes, no doubt, but he's made MORE good moves. He's done enough to succeed, but bad luck (Koch imploding, David Wells tanking, Manuel being a moron, Maggs/Frank injured) have done him in as much as anything. I concede that it's his job to overcome (and perhaps even predict) things like those, but he's a rookie GM and he deserves more than 3 years. It's not like he's made nothing but boneheaded moves -- give him at least through the 2006 season.

habibharu
07-26-2004, 06:27 PM
I disagree completely. Kenny Williams has made some mistakes, no doubt, but he's made MORE good moves. He's done enough to succeed, but bad luck (Koch imploding, David Wells tanking, Manuel being a moron, Maggs/Frank injured) have done him in as much as anything. I concede that it's his job to overcome (and perhaps even predict) things like those, but he's a rookie GM and he deserves more than 3 years. It's not like he's made nothing but boneheaded moves -- give him at least through the 2006 season. oh come on! koch imploding is not his fault? he traded for him! Plus under him, the farm system has become weaker every year. it started out ranked number 1 in 2000, and now it is near the bottom. i understand that he has traded prospects to get veterans and go for it, but where are the results? one playoff appearance is not gonna cut it. i expect more, especially in a division as weak as ours. HE GAWN!

samram
07-26-2004, 06:33 PM
First of all, KW is not getting fired after this year, playoffs or not.

As for the approach next season, Ozzie had this to say yesterday (from Rick Morrisey's column (http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/columnists/cs-040725morrissey,1,4829340.column?coll=cs-home-utility)):

"…If we don't win it, there's going to be a lot of different faces on this club because I will tell (general manager) Kenny Williams what I need. Give me a Double-A team that wants to show up and play." I don't know if this is simply Ozzie running his mouth, or if this is the plan- if they don't get into the postseason, go in a different direction.

habibharu
07-26-2004, 06:45 PM
First of all, KW is not getting fired after this year, playoffs or not.

As for the approach next season, Ozzie had this to say yesterday (from Rick Morrisey's column (http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/columnists/cs-040725morrissey,1,4829340.column?coll=cs-home-utility)):

I don't know if this is simply Ozzie running his mouth, or if this is the plan- if they don't get into the postseason, go in a different direction. why is kenny not getting fired after this year?

jabrch
07-26-2004, 06:49 PM
why is kenny not getting fired after this year?
Because he has done a decent job.

PaleHoseGeorge
07-26-2004, 06:50 PM
why is kenny not getting fired after this year?
Obviously nobody *knows* for sure the status of Kenny Williams except Jerry Reinsdorf, and he's not talking.
:rolleyes:

However, we do have the Oracle of Reinsdorphi that always tells us what the chairman is thinking. It was just last September he said...

:hawk
"Kenny Williams is the MVP of this team!"

It's not far-fetched to think Kenny has at least another year's worth of goodwill built up from Reinsdorf's last unofficial pronouncement on the subject.

:gulp:

samram
07-26-2004, 06:50 PM
why is kenny not getting fired after this year?
Have you heard any talk that that would happen?

Also, in the article, Ozzie talks about what he'll tell KW to do, which means he thinks Kenny will be there.

Finally, if a new GM is brought in, they usually want their own manager, and JR isn't going to let Ozzie go. Reinsdorf is loyal to a fault- think about how long Manuel was around.

mdep524
07-26-2004, 06:53 PM
exactly what i meant. and if we dont make the playoffs this year: :KW :hawk "HE GAWN!"
Hab, no offense, but this is totally ridiculous. Win or lose, there is literally ZERO chance KW will be fired this off-season. It's just not happening.

As for the team being broken up, well obviously we have to see how they do over the next 2 months. If they do not make the playoffs, I would have to say that something has to give- one of PK, Lee, Ordonez and Thomas will have to go. Thomas isn't going anywhere (nor should he), and Maggs has a situation himself. I would say either Paulie or Lee should be TRADED for REAL PLAYERS (i.e. not "dumped," released or sold off). Of course I say with Frank and Maggs healthy, one of Paulie or Lee should be traded ANYWAY, so take that for what its worth.

jabrch
07-26-2004, 07:00 PM
Hab, no offense, but this is totally ridiculous. Win or lose, there is literally ZERO chance KW will be fired this off-season. It's just not happening.

As for the team being broken up, well obviously we have to see how they do over the next 2 months. If they do not make the playoffs, I would have to say that something has to give- one of PK, Lee, Ordonez and Thomas will have to go. Thomas isn't going anywhere (nor should he), and Maggs has a situation himself. I would say either Paulie or Lee should be TRADED for REAL PLAYERS (i.e. not "dumped," released or sold off). Of course I say with Frank and Maggs healthy, one of Paulie or Lee should be traded ANYWAY, so take that for what its worth.
Lee is a good value at 6.5mm. PK is hard to trade at 9.5mm. Thomas has his own option. Magglio is, IMHO, as good as gone. With his injury, and his demand for Vlad money, I don't see us paying him that. My guess is that he is gone and we make a run at Beltran, but lose to the Yanks. We then settle with JD Drew. If healthy, Drew is awesome. The problem is that he is hardly ever healthy enough.

pearso66
07-26-2004, 08:24 PM
oh come on! koch imploding is not his fault? he traded for him! Plus under him, the farm system has become weaker every year. it started out ranked number 1 in 2000, and now it is near the bottom. i understand that he has traded prospects to get veterans and go for it, but where are the results? one playoff appearance is not gonna cut it. i expect more, especially in a division as weak as ours. HE GAWN!
You fail to realize that the players that made our farm system ranked #1 were, Rauch and Borchard in a sense. Those were the two highly touted rookies, and they havn't panned out. So to say that the farm system has gotten that much weaker isn't a very good excuse, Maybe our system was just severly overhyped.

oldcomiskey
07-26-2004, 09:14 PM
This probably sounds pretty ironic since we're the only team in the division that hasn't won a pennant in the last 20 years, but dammit, we're the Goliath in this division. Let's start acting like it!
Goliath was beaten by a smaller man and a slingshot

Win1ForMe
07-26-2004, 09:18 PM
Today's a prime example of why breaking up this core should be at least looked into. There's been way too many games where the Sox just roll over and die.

mdep524
07-26-2004, 09:26 PM
Today's a prime example of why breaking up this core should be at least looked into. There's been way too many games where the Sox just roll over and die.
BINGO! I just hate this Corpseball. Today is only one game, but in some ways it is indicative of this team's problems.

mdep524
07-26-2004, 09:31 PM
Lee is a good value at 6.5mm. PK is hard to trade at 9.5mm. Thomas has his own option. Magglio is, IMHO, as good as gone. With his injury, and his demand for Vlad money, I don't see us paying him that. My guess is that he is gone and we make a run at Beltran, but lose to the Yanks. We then settle with JD Drew. If healthy, Drew is awesome. The problem is that he is hardly ever healthy enough.
You're right that Lee is a good value for his salary, but his production could be fairly easily replaced in a number of ways. He could probably fetch a lot in a trade, considering his production, his age, and his nice contract. Carl Crawford maybe? Some major league talent.

I also agree Maggs is gone now, which is sad. However if the Sox seriously make a move for Beltran--I don't think they will choose to, but it is well within sense financially--it will more than make up for the loss of Maggs.

Willie Harris and Juan Uribe just aren't going to cut it as table setters- Willie just doesn't have that "knack" or instincts that a guy like Crawford has. So IMO the SOx are going to have to look outside the organization for some REAL tablesetters/lead off hitters. Crawford and/or Kendall, money aside, are ideal.

BearSox
07-26-2004, 09:47 PM
You're right that Lee is a good value for his salary, but his production could be fairly easily replaced in a number of ways. He could probably fetch a lot in a trade, considering his production, his age, and his nice contract. Carl Crawford maybe? Some major league talent.

I also agree Maggs is gone now, which is sad. However if the Sox seriously make a move for Beltran--I don't think they will choose to, but it is well within sense financially--it will more than make up for the loss of Maggs.

Willie Harris and Juan Uribe just aren't going to cut it as table setters- Willie just doesn't have that "knack" or instincts that a guy like Crawford has. So IMO the SOx are going to have to look outside the organization for some REAL tablesetters/lead off hitters. Crawford and/or Kendall, money aside, are ideal.
Your strategy makes no sense. Basically you want to trade one of our best hitters for another good hitter? Why are we trading apples for apples. You keep your best players and bring in good hitters through FA to replace the not so great players on your team. WE've got a better revenue for next year. Keep our core and at to that core!

mdep524
07-26-2004, 09:57 PM
Your strategy makes no sense. Basically you want to trade one of our best hitters for another good hitter? Why are we trading apples for apples. You keep your best players and bring in good hitters through FA to replace the not so great players on your team. WE've got a better revenue for next year. Keep our core and at to that core!
It's not apples for apples, that's too simplistic of an analysis. Carlos Lee, Paul Konerko, Joe Crede, Magglio Ordonez...they are all the SAME TYPE of hitter. Right handed, slow footed, all or nothing power hitters who don't walk much. You cna't have an entire line up of that or you get nights like tonight, aka Corpseball.

Crawford, Kendall, guys like that represent a different part of hitting that is foriegn to the Sox: speed, patience, on-base ability, versatility, etc. There are a lot of (possibly better) examples of players besides those two, but the point is sacraficing some power for some versatility could do this line up good next year, if the current team fails down the stretch this year (after already failing in the '00 playoffs, '01, '02 and '03).

Whitesox029
07-26-2004, 10:37 PM
i have been thinking about this for a while now. We have had the same exact core of guys for the past 4 years, and havent won jack. valentin, thomas,ordonez,lee,konerko, and crede have been our hitting core for so long now. is it time to get rid of some of those guys if we dont win this year?How much longer can we contend before KW breaks it up and rebuilds? I would say 2005 is our last chance until say, 2010. I love being optimistic, but doesn't it seem like everyone else's rebuilding periods are much shorter than ours? We may have contended for parts of it, but the stretch from 1995-1999 is a huge black hole as far as I'm concerned.

Jerome
07-26-2004, 10:58 PM
I have not read this whole thread, so i might be repeating things. But here is what I think the Sox should do if they do not make a run this year (by run I mean more than just a 3 and out playoff series):

Let Valentin walk. (maybe we can get a draft pick out of it). Start drafting a little more like moneyball and a little less like LTP. (Look more at OPS and OBP). Trade EITHER Konerko/C.LEE for pitching. Trade Garland for a pitcher that actually gets outs, and not a pitcher with "potential".

Draft a SS with top pick.

THe only problem is that this team is built for this ballpark. A team built on pitching alone would probably struggle at the Cell.

voodoochile
07-26-2004, 11:21 PM
I have not read this whole thread, so i might be repeating things. But here is what I think the Sox should do if they do not make a run this year (by run I mean more than just a 3 and out playoff series):

Let Valentin walk. (maybe we can get a draft pick out of it). Start drafting a little more like moneyball and a little less like LTP. (Look more at OPS and OBP). Trade EITHER Konerko/C.LEE for pitching. Trade Garland for a pitcher that actually gets outs, and not a pitcher with "potential".

Draft a SS with top pick.

THe only problem is that this team is built for this ballpark. A team built on pitching alone would probably struggle at the Cell.
The only way to get a draft pick out of Jose is to offer him arbitration and If I'm Jose, I accept because it probably means a 2-3M raise next season based on league average salarys for a powerhitting SS. Heck, he asks for $6M he probably gets it. The Sox will offer 80% and the arbitor will just laugh...

Other thoughts from the last few posts of this thread...

No one on the Sox save Freddy Garcia is signed to a deal past the end of 2006. Maggs could change that, but this team is built to be turned over for the next CBA bargaining session. I won't be surprised if JR sells before the end of that season...

Lip Man 1
07-26-2004, 11:23 PM
WhiteSox029:

You are obviously not old enought to remember 1968 - 1971 or 1973 - 1976 or 1978 - 1980 or 1986 - 1989.

My friend those were some BAD teams.

Lip

doublem23
07-26-2004, 11:28 PM
No, that's silly

gosox41
07-27-2004, 09:09 AM
"The Sox had a $34 mill. payroll in 2000. A lot of those excess signings are due to his decisions and not Schu signing these guys to a lot of long term contracts."

I'm not trying to be critical of Schueler or insinuate that he saddled the Sox with bad contracts. My point is that if KW decides to make serious changes to the club while still remaining competitive, this offseason probably presents his best opportunity with the number of contracts he can clear off the books. Kenny's first order of business after he took over was to lock up players that had just produced a 95-win season. Reasonable enough. I just meant to say that the core of this team was inherited from Schueler. Some of the contract extensions/trades looked good following the 2000 season, but have not paid the expected dividends with respect to team wins. The Sox have been built on power hitting, and this offseason presents KW with the option of shifting the entire philosophy of the club without having to embark upon a "rebuilding" project with inexperienced young players. The team could find itself with a great deal of cash to spend on the free agent market to acquire pitching or whatever else they decide they need. An added advantage is that the free agent pool has become somewhat of a "buyer's market" over the last couple of seasons.

Gotcha. If the Sox don't win this year, I'm all for making some major changes to this team.


Bob

jeremyb1
07-27-2004, 09:51 PM
BINGO! I just hate this Corpseball. Today is only one game, but in some ways it is indicative of this team's problems.

You mean losing? I don't have any reason to belive our club isn't playing hard. It shouldn't be shocking that our offense is worse without our two best hitters or that we can't score a bunch of runs off the hottest pitcher in baseball. "Corpseball" is the biggest copout ever. No one can ever offer a legitimate definition or strong examples. My definition of corpseball is "a term thrown around by Sox fans (specifically those posting at WSI) frustrated with losing and unwilling to blame the results on performance (ie luck, baseball bounces, etc) and/or a lack of talent."

DickAllen72
07-27-2004, 10:05 PM
IF we don't win this year, blow this team up. Get rid of the slow one dimensional players and get players who can run, field, throw and make contact and bunt.

Build around Buehrle, Garcia, Garland, Takatsu, Marte, and young pitchers. Try to invest more up the middle (catcher, SS, 2B, CF) rather than $14million corner players. And NO DH's! The DH should be another good position player such as a fourth outfielder.

We could've won this year with another stud pitcher and a 5 tool position player, but we weren't willing or able to get them. Now we still have a chance if everyone steps up and plays at their peaks for the rest of the year, but the chances of that are slim.

mdep524
07-28-2004, 01:06 AM
You mean losing? I don't have any reason to belive our club isn't playing hard. It shouldn't be shocking that our offense is worse without our two best hitters or that we can't score a bunch of runs off the hottest pitcher in baseball. "Corpseball" is the biggest copout ever. No one can ever offer a legitimate definition or strong examples. My definition of corpseball is "a term thrown around by Sox fans (specifically those posting at WSI) frustrated with losing and unwilling to blame the results on performance (ie luck, baseball bounces, etc) and/or a lack of talent."
All due respect jeremy, but you are wrong on this. Corpseball is not a cop out, and it is not a myth. Nowhere have I ever questioned how hard the Sox play. Don't confuse me with those posters who say the Twins "want it more," etc. I think the Sox are trying hard- but trying hard doesn't exclude playing Corpseball.

Too many people incorrectly categorize Corpseball and its antithesis, Smallball. Corpseball is not about "effort," and Smallball is not about bunting, despite the overly simplistic and incorect assumptions that are sometimes made.

Corpseball is about not having versatility in the line up. When Plan A (aka "Solo Homerun") fails, the Sox fail. Conversely, "Smallball" is about much more than just bunting. It's about EXECUTION. It's about taking walks, hitting behind runners, executing the hit and run, stealing bases, 1st and 3rd-ing, hitting to the opposite field, getting a runner in from third with less than 2 outs., etc

These Sox just don't do ANY of those things. They're impatient, dead pull, all-or-nothing power hitters with little to no speed. Nearly every player on the team is like that. THAT is why they play "Corpseball."

owensmouth
07-28-2004, 02:16 AM
Lee is a good value at 6.5mm. PK is hard to trade at 9.5mm. Thomas has his own option. Magglio is, IMHO, as good as gone. With his injury, and his demand for Vlad money, I don't see us paying him that. My guess is that he is gone and we make a run at Beltran, but lose to the Yanks. We then settle with JD Drew. If healthy, Drew is awesome. The problem is that he is hardly ever healthy enough.
What do you think Magglio was crying about in the clubhouse? He wasn't upset about not helping the White Sox this year. He was upset about all the money he won't be making. He can forget about Vlad money. With his knee, and the uncertainty about it, he isn't worth Paulie money, and he knows it.

Meanwhile, Paulie is having the kind of a year that makes his 9 million money well earned. He's on a pace to approach 40 homers and a .280 to .290 average. If you trade him, it has to be for a top of the line starter, not some non productive rookie like Jackson.

Konerko and Carlos are capable of 80 home runs a year, playing at US Cellular Field. Just because Uribe and Willie are cheap doesn't make them worth keeping. Crede is in his second full year. Carlos took 5 years to finally put it togeather. Crede deserves the same.

JD Drew isn't worth pigeon ****. Let him die in the National League.