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View Full Version : Charles Johnson Back in Black?


beausox
07-24-2001, 09:18 PM
Johnson is having another monster year and showing that his offensive numbers from last year were no fluke. Johnson has a clause in his contract saying that if the Marlins don't get a new stadium deal done he could become a free agent. Last I heard that stadium deal was getting close to falling through. Maybe Ken Williams will realize his mistake and resign CJ. Having him as a stater and Alomar as a back-up would give us the best catching tandem in the league. Probably just a pipe dream, but hell who thought the Twins would lead the divison through the break?

IA_soxfan
07-24-2001, 09:24 PM
Do we really want to take on his salary?

Daver
07-24-2001, 09:26 PM
I would rather dazzle the Rangers with pitching prospects and get I Rod.I think they would listen to Garland ,Fogg,Dwyer and MJ for I Rod.

NUKE_CLEVELAND
07-24-2001, 09:26 PM
Why don't we dump Sandy & his big salary & let Mark Johnson play with CJ. That would be a good tandem behind the plate with CJ doing the heavy lifting & MJ continuing to learn the ropes.

Soxheads
07-24-2001, 09:30 PM
why would you want to trade garland?

Daver
07-24-2001, 09:31 PM
It will take proven big league pitcher to seal the deal.

charlie browned
07-24-2001, 09:35 PM
I-Rod is getting old for a catcher, and injury-prone--i.e., another Alomar about to happen. Johnson is younger, has the almost exact statisitical career trajectory of Elston Howard (and even has the almost exact physique of Howard) , and has championship/playoff experience. It was the strong opinion of many on the Sox message board last year that such a rock up the middle should have been signed and paid for, and that the failure to do so was a typical FUBAR Reinsdorfian move. Steinbrenner would have re-signed him in a minute.

Soxheads
07-24-2001, 09:40 PM
Garland still would need more experience as a starter.

Tragg
07-24-2001, 09:43 PM
I Rod is way overpriced - he's 30 and isn't a great offensive player.

Let's get a solid defensive catcher, a real good SS who can get on base, and sign Maggs and KF. That will put us in contention for a long time.

To get that SS, however, we may have to trade a good player. So be it.

beausox
07-24-2001, 09:49 PM
I-Rod may be the best C ever, but I think Texas will hold on to him. What's wrong wiht Royce urr....I mean Jose at SS. Sure he throws a few balls away, but he covers so much ground out there, is a team leader and he hits.

OfficerKarkovice
07-24-2001, 09:50 PM
Tragg are you serious saying I-Rod isnt that good of an offensive player?!? You have got to be kidding me. He is incredible

Daver
07-24-2001, 09:55 PM
I agree,we are talking first ballot allstar with I Rod,and he can catch for another 4 years easy.But then again what the hell do I know?

OfficerKarkovice
07-24-2001, 09:57 PM
How to kill a fleeing animal with a bow and arrow?

Daver
07-24-2001, 10:00 PM
Well,besides that.

Had thumper for dinner,good eating there.

Tragg
07-24-2001, 10:02 PM
He's got a career OBP of .340 - no better than average.
He's got a career SP of .490 - good, not great.
He's hit over 30 homers only once in his career, and over 25 only twice.

That is not great offense.

Now, admittedly, he's good for a catcher. But good offensive catchers are rare so they are OVERPRICED. What's the difference if you have a shortstop who can get on base and a cathcer who can't? Well, the difference is several million a year.

As for our SS situation, quality teams MUST be defensively stout up the middle. We are not and will not be with valentin or clayton. Clayton gives us the additional problem of a major offensive hole - with a hole almost a given at catcher, we can't afford 2 of them.

charlie browned
07-24-2001, 10:07 PM
A team should spend 80% of its money on pitchers. Pitchers take you to the playoffs and win them. Hitters are to a large (but not complete) extent interchangeable. As Rollie Fingers put it on the Score the other day, the Texas Rangers are finding out that A-Rod can't pitch.

Daver
07-24-2001, 10:10 PM
What is his percentage of runners caught stealing and dead pickoffs at first base?That is what I Rod brings more than anything else,and him behind the plate can help hide a mediocre SS,he backed up Royce for 2 years in Texas.

Tragg
07-24-2001, 10:28 PM
He is a great defensive player, daver. But it's the combination of his great D plus his offense that is unusual for a catcher that makes him a prize. I think we can find a very good defensive catcher for a lot cheaper price. And we need to find one (as well as a SS).

OfficerKarkovice
07-24-2001, 10:31 PM
thats not true because thats what everyone said about finding a solid fielding SS and now that we have one everyone complains about his hitting...so the second that we get a solid defensive C and he is only hitting .240 you will be b*tching about how he cant hit worth a damn and we need to cut him

Tragg
07-24-2001, 10:47 PM
Not at all, officer. WE can tolerate one hole in a lineup, not 2. Unless you are paying big bucks, that hole will be at catcher. Last year, we had only 1 hole in our lineup (none once CJ came aboard) - we also had pretty average defense. In an effort to shore up the D, we put a hole in the lineup, and still didn't do much to shore up the D.

As it is, Clayton is NOT a great defensive shortstop, so he doesn't even plug that hole. He is adequate.

We need someone like you for catcher. You could catch and throw. You couldn't hit a lick, but that was okay.

Unfortunately, we also had Guillen and Johnson who also couldn't hit a lick (although they were fine defensive players in their primes).

OfficerKarkovice
07-24-2001, 10:49 PM
I could couldn't I :)
And hey my hitting was...well...adequate

IA_soxfan
07-24-2001, 11:03 PM
Haha, when I saw the officer at comisk in '96 he had a huge game, something like 3 for 4 and 3 ribbies, IIRC.

Mathew
07-25-2001, 04:33 AM
I Rod and Chuck Johnson are both great defensive catchers. Since when is 30 too old? I think either player would make us way better. You guys might let me hear it for this but if I had any catcher in the league it would be Jason Kendall from the Bucs. He is struggling this year but he is a very good player. I would take Paul Lo Duca in a heartbeat and I do believe the bigger need is at the catcher position. Last year how many games did Jose Valentin cost us with errors? How many has Clayton the defensive specialist cost us by being terrible? We have a shortstop named MANOS!
P.S. what is Claytons average since Valentin's first injury when Clayton started playing "everyday"

Mathew
07-25-2001, 04:35 AM
CJ went in the tank for a long time this year though would you guys lose faith in another all-star if he went through a dry spell like you do Durham? Ray Durham is still top 5 in the game at his position.

Procol Harum
07-25-2001, 09:53 AM
I'd be willing to sign Chas Johnson for a 4 year deal--solid d, good arm, decent offensive numbers, good guy. Sandy Alomar is a solid citizen but has crested the hill and is on the way down--trade him for a decent middle reliefer.

Durham is such an enigma. When he's clicking on all cylinders--like last night--he looks like a hall of famer. But there are just too many stretches when he is absolutley hideous. Durham should be sent packing at the end of the year. Given Clayton's resurrection, I'm getting to the point where I might could tolerate a middle infield with him at SS and Manos at 2B. But we'll have to see how Clayton plays for the rest of the year and if he can avoid being a jerk.

Other moves: Anytime now: Baldwin for some minor league pitching.

End of year: Singleton, bye-bye for pitching prospects. Release Canseco. Sign best free agent starting pitcher available.

Iwritecode
07-25-2001, 09:57 AM
Originally posted by Mathew
Last year how many games did Jose Valentin cost us with errors? How many has Clayton the defensive specialist cost us by being terrible? We have a shortstop named MANOS!

PHG has the actual story floating around somewhere but Jose only cost us about 5 games by my count.

The number of games Clayton has cost us could be harder to figure out. They don't give errors for lack of range or a weak arm.

Joel Perez
07-25-2001, 11:16 AM
The talk down here in Texas was for a time (2-3 weeks) there was a rumor that Ivan was 50-50 going to the White Sox when the Sox were getting hot in June. Mostly, the reason for the move would've been strictly salary. If memory serves correctly, he's making $7.5 mil this season.

The Rangers were looking at two pitchers, and outfielder and a catcher to help their beleaguered team. The two announcers their on the radio were saying that any help pitching wise would be a good move for the Rangers, although giving up someone like Ivan's stature in Dallas would be a tremendous loss were that to happen.

Some names that were being tossed around in big D was Matt Ginter, Jon Rauch (before the injury), Kip Wells, Mark Johnson and Aaron Rowand as POSSIBLE names to consider.

Now, owner Tom Hicks is looking to lock up Ivan for life. Mr. Moneybags up there in D-city can spend the $$$$, but he actually does spend, not like Mr. Riensdorf. Although we all said before the start of the season "Hey, A-Rod can't pitch...", he wanted to see what the rotation and the pen can do, which right now they can't even beat a AAA team.

Texas may still look to unload Ivan, but it'll have to be a blockbuster deal. And since the White Sox's young arms are doing quite well, they aren't going anywhere for a while.

Joel Perez
07-25-2001, 11:35 AM
From Tragg:

He's got a career OBP of .340 - no better than average.
He's got a career SP of .490 - good, not great.
He's hit over 30 homers only once in his career, and over 25 only twice.

That is not great offense.



True, but nobody on this green earth projected a 5'9" catcher to put up the numbers and fielding percentages & defense as Ivan has done. Because of that, he is the #1 catcher in the major leagues right now. He is a complete catcher. Mike Piazza can hit, sure; but cannot field.

Check out his stats career wise at the Texas Rangers official web site... a .340 on base percentage for a catcher is unheard of these days. Yeah, that slugging percentage is a little above average, but he has hit over 20 home runs in the past five years now, showing he can be more than just a .250 BA/15HR/70 RBI person. Plus, check out his stats this year--he's having a career year as well.

He has only been on the DL twice...once in 1992, and last year which wasn't his fault--Mo Vaughn's big club whacked Ivan's thumb last year.

Ivan is a shade below Johnny Bench, IMO the greatest of all time behind the plate, but he should ask for a king's ransom as a salary now--he's earned it.

Ivan's stats and stuff (http://www.rangers.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/tex/team/tex_player_bio.jsp?club_context=tex&playerid=121358)