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View Full Version : Maggs back to DL per Espn 1000


thepaulbowski
07-23-2004, 04:28 PM
Magglio on DL & Borchard is being brought up per ESPN 1000

CWSGuy406
07-23-2004, 04:28 PM
Per Bruce Levine on AM 1000. Borchard back up to the bigs.

Not sure for how long... :whiner: :angry:

RKMeibalane
07-23-2004, 04:28 PM
NOOOOOOOOOO!

Kogs35
07-23-2004, 04:29 PM
Magglio on DL & Borchard is being brought up per ESPN 1000larry walker your plane is ready? and on your plane ride here please bring charles johnson with u

HomeFish
07-23-2004, 04:29 PM
Stick a fork in us, we're done.

CWSGuy406
07-23-2004, 04:30 PM
Stick a fork in us, we're done.
:rolleyes:


Bleh - this sucks.

Dadawg_77
07-23-2004, 04:30 PM
larry walker your plane is ready?
If healthy that would be a great pickup.

pearso66
07-23-2004, 04:30 PM
Stick a fork in us, we're done.
wow, maybe we could actually see how it goes before declaring the season over. We won last night without maggs. If our pitching holds up, we'll be just fine

Jjav829
07-23-2004, 04:30 PM
Unbelievable. This is awful news. Kenny is going to address the media at 4:00. We need to make a move.

RKMeibalane
07-23-2004, 04:30 PM
Stick a fork in us, we're done.
We'll have to see how things play out. I agree that this doesn't look good, though.

nodiggity59
07-23-2004, 04:30 PM
:(:

Im a long time lurker on this site. Read every day, rarely post, but:

OH MY GOD IM GONNA DIE

thepaulbowski
07-23-2004, 04:31 PM
Stick a fork in us, we're done.
:chickenlittle

RKMeibalane
07-23-2004, 04:32 PM
Unbelievable. This is awful news. Kenny is going to address the media at 4:00. We need to make a move.
Is Dan Pasqua availible?

thepaulbowski
07-23-2004, 04:32 PM
wow, maybe we could actually see how it goes before declaring the season over. We won last night without maggs. If our pitching holds up, we'll be just fine
The Sox might as well pack up and go home now, there is no way they can win the strong AL Central. It is just not possible.

hawkjt
07-23-2004, 04:32 PM
Breathe - Sox fans- we can survive if it is 15 days for Maggs. No talk of surgery yet. All teams have injuries. KW will not panic. This will make us stronger when Maggs and Frank come back. Thought process - stretch-bow your necks.

nodiggity59
07-23-2004, 04:33 PM
The sky IS falling. We now have NO assurance that Maggs will EVER PLAY FOR THE WHITE SOX AGAIN.

Think about that.

Blob
07-23-2004, 04:33 PM
wow, maybe we could actually see how it goes before declaring the season over. We won last night without maggs. If our pitching holds up, we'll be just fine
Don't even listen to him, it's not worth it...his posts are ALWAYS filled with such high hopes...

RKMeibalane
07-23-2004, 04:33 PM
:hurt :maggs

"White Sox Baseball: Bring Your First-Aid Kit."

Baby Fisk
07-23-2004, 04:34 PM
:everett:

"What the hell y'all runnin' round for, freakin' out like this is Jurassic Park or some **** like that. Put your faiths in the hands of Carl, my bitches! I'm your savior now!"

pearso66
07-23-2004, 04:35 PM
The sky IS falling. We now have NO assurance that Maggs will EVER PLAY FOR THE WHITE SOX AGAIN.

Think about that.
Well if you take it ni the aspect I will, there is no way he can demand Vlad type money now. having 2 DL stints in 1 season, because of the same injury, will scare people off.

Flight #24
07-23-2004, 04:36 PM
Is Dan Pasqua availible?
Sure, for a 500k contract with a deferred dime bag of weed every year for 10 years.

RKMeibalane
07-23-2004, 04:36 PM
:KW

"I am extremely dissapointed that Magglio Ordonez will be placed on the DL. We were hoping to use him as a decoy, but that's not going to be possible right now."

HomeFish
07-23-2004, 04:38 PM
:everett:

"What the hell y'all runnin' round for, freakin' out like this is Jurassic Park or some **** like that. Put your faiths in the hands of Carl, my bitches! I'm your savior now!"

Having to carry the team during an injury stretch like this usually causes Sox batters to choke. Hopefully Carl has not yet assimilated to us and will react differently.

I don't expect any moves to be made. If if we do get another bat, it would be grand.

samram
07-23-2004, 04:38 PM
Breathe - Sox fans- we can survive if it is 15 days for Maggs. No talk of surgery yet. All teams have injuries. KW will not panic. This will make us stronger when Maggs and Frank come back. Thought process - stretch-bow your necks.
Good post. Obviously, I don't hear what you guys are hearing up there, but this may be a situation where he will be out 10-12 days, and they don't want to be one man short for that long, so they put him on the DL retroactive to yesterday. If he is going to be out for a long time, KW has proven not to be a patient man, and I suspect he would jump into the market for Walker or Delgado.

cheeses_h_rice
07-23-2004, 04:38 PM
Stick a fork in us, we're done. :rolleyes:

:tsk:

See ya, fairweather boy. Don't bother coming back to ask for a seat on the bandwagon when the Sox win the division...

Uncle_Patrick
07-23-2004, 04:39 PM
I haven't had a chance to listen to the radio yet. How long is he on the DL? Maybe they are just being cautious. And really, I have to believe that this is seriously going to affect the kind of offers Maggs might receive in the offseason.

RKMeibalane
07-23-2004, 04:40 PM
I haven't had a chance to listen to the radio yet. How long is he on the DL? Maybe they are just being cautious. And really, I have to believe that this is seriously going to affect the kind of offers Maggs might receive in the offseason.
I agree. Nobody will be willing to pay him what he's asking for now that his health is a question mark. It's ironic that the Sox not having Maggs now may actually lead to them resigning him during the winter.

HomeFish
07-23-2004, 04:41 PM
If he is going to be out for a long time, KW has proven not to be a patient man, and I suspect he would jump into the market for Walker or Delgado.

Considering the luck the Rockies have had with former underachieving Sox infielders, Crede would look good on Coors.

PorkChopExpress
07-23-2004, 04:41 PM
Out 4-6 weeks per Bruce Levine!

hose
07-23-2004, 04:41 PM
Time to make a trade.....Larry Walker will do just fine

hawkjt
07-23-2004, 04:41 PM
Put Carlos in a glass bubble. Seriously, we can tread water w/o Maggs and Frank with our starting pitching and a reasonable schedule. Need Willie (Mays) Harris ,(Hank) Aaron Rowand to stay hot at the top of the lineup cuz Carlos is raking and Paulie and carl are rbi guys. Crede needs to keep up his last two game performance and Sandy needs new iron knees. Oh and Jose needs to make contact. In other words - we need a miracle everyday.

Kogs35
07-23-2004, 04:41 PM
out 4-6 weeks

Mickster
07-23-2004, 04:41 PM
JUST ON AM1000:


Maggs out 4-6 Weeks. :o: :o: :o:

Now we're cooked! :whiner: :whiner: :whiner:

Evman5
07-23-2004, 04:41 PM
I haven't had a chance to listen to the radio yet. How long is he on the DL? Maybe they are just being cautious. And really, I have to believe that this is seriously going to affect the kind of offers Maggs might receive in the offseason.


Bruce Levine is reporting it is going to be another 4-6 weeks:(:

Baby Fisk
07-23-2004, 04:42 PM
Having to carry the team during an injury stretch like this usually causes Sox batters to choke. Hopefully Carl has not yet assimilated to us and will react differently.

I don't expect any moves to be made. If if we do get another bat, it would be grand.Newsflash: the Jerry Manuel era is over. This ain't the old South Side Choke Machine no mo'. These boys want to win and will do so. I see KW making a move for a bat or arm or both, but he will definitely not stand pat.

Honestly, HomeFish, you need to get a drink and settle down! :cool:

Evman5
07-23-2004, 04:43 PM
wow 6 people just said 4-6 weeks in a span of 20 secs haha

Huisj
07-23-2004, 04:43 PM
so what will the make the lineup look like now?

Rowand
Valentin
Lee
Konerko
Everett
Crede
Borchard
Catcher?
Harris?

Maybe Harris needs to go back to the top now that he's been getting on base the last couple games again, and actually move rowand to #2 and Valentin down to 5 or 6. This lineup isn't too scary though. this isn't good

RKMeibalane
07-23-2004, 04:45 PM
Out 4-6 weeks per Bruce Levine!
That means he's probably due back about a week before Frank. The Sox need to stay within striking distance of the Twins until then.

samram
07-23-2004, 04:45 PM
Out 4-6 weeks per Bruce Levine!
I wish I could say this is surprising, but it just seemed like he came back too quickly when Frank went down. And there is no way they should have been letting him play right, although it's his fault too for not understanding that he had to come back gradually.

Rocky Soprano
07-23-2004, 04:45 PM
I still have FAITH!


But I am also :whiner: :whiner: :whiner:

Jjav829
07-23-2004, 04:45 PM
so what will the make the lineup look like now?

Rowand
Valentin
Lee
Konerko
Everett
Crede
Borchard
Catcher?
Harris?

Maybe Harris needs to go back to the top now that he's been getting on base the last couple games again, and actually move rowand to #2 and Valentin down to 5 or 6. This lineup isn't too scary though. this isn't good
That definitely doesn't look good with no Frank and no Maggs. We have to make a move. Larry Walker, Carlos Delgado, etc. Yeah we'd have trouble finding a place to play whoever we acquire once Frank and Maggs come back, but we can't worry about that. Time to get another bat.

pudge
07-23-2004, 04:46 PM
4-6 F'ing weeks!?

This seems very very odd. How do you undergo a surgery and then have to be shelved another 4-6? I've never heard of this before, and I've been injured many times myself.

thepaulbowski
07-23-2004, 04:46 PM
That definitely doesn't look good with no Frank and no Maggs. We have to make a move. Larry Walker, Carlos Delgado, etc. Yeah we'd have trouble finding a place to play whoever we acquire once Frank and Maggs come back, but we can't worry about that. Time to get another bat.
But then everybody will complain that we mortgaged the future and/or paid too much.

sendimjoey
07-23-2004, 04:46 PM
Put Carlos in a glass bubble. Seriously, we can tread water w/o Maggs and Frank with our starting pitching and a reasonable schedule. Need Willie (Mays) Harris ,(Hank) Aaron Rowand to stay hot at the top of the lineup cuz Carlos is raking and Paulie and carl are rbi guys. Crede needs to keep up his last two game performance and Sandy needs new iron knees. Oh and Jose needs to make contact. In other words - we need a miracle everyday.
I wouldn't say a miracle, but yes, Harris, Rowand, Crede and Uribe will have to "pick it up," as Ken Williams likes to say.

Well, at least we can shut up any Cubs fan who whines about injuries. Maggs going back on the DL is far from fatal, but it is going to make it a lot tougher. :(: :o: :(:

Huisj
07-23-2004, 04:46 PM
someone mentioned that this could eventually help the sox resign him. i doubt it. don't you think there might be a little bit of frustration with ordonez from the sox management now for his demand to play in the field when it seems obvious that he wasn't ready for that? I know he probably partly wanted to do it with the idea of helping the team and wanting to do what he could, but at the same time it seemed like sort of a selfish demand.

Win1ForMe
07-23-2004, 04:47 PM
Well, is he having more surgery? 4-6 weeks can't be all rest?

Blob
07-23-2004, 04:47 PM
Honestly, HomeFish, you need to get a drink and settle down! :cool:He can't, he likes 12 or something. He's just an annoying little brat. He just want to be one of the first people to say "I told you so!!" How you can be proud over a fact like that...I have no idea!!

RKMeibalane
07-23-2004, 04:48 PM
That definitely doesn't look good with no Frank and no Maggs. We have to make a move. Larry Walker, Carlos Delgado, etc. Yeah we'd have trouble finding a place to play whoever we acquire once Frank and Maggs come back, but we can't worry about that. Time to get another bat.
I'm not sure about Walker. He can play RF, but he's also injury-prone. Do the Sox really want to trade for someone who might end up joining Frank and Maggs on the DL? Delgado is another 1B/DH type player, but he is a proven run-producer, and will fit in the middle of the lineup until Frank and Maggs are ready to return.

hawkjt
07-23-2004, 04:48 PM
I honestly dont think this will hurt Maggs value cuz he does not have a history of knee problems and this was as a result of a collision. He will be completely healthy by next year. No he is being paid a total of 14 million - 10 million of which he is paid when he is not available and rehabbing. That is why it is such bad business to put 25% of your payroll in one player.

Baby Fisk
07-23-2004, 04:49 PM
That definitely doesn't look good with no Frank and no Maggs. We have to make a move. Larry Walker, Carlos Delgado, etc. Yeah we'd have trouble finding a place to play whoever we acquire once Frank and Maggs come back, but we can't worry about that. Time to get another bat.
If KW makes a move for a big bat, it will just mean monster bench strength for games played in the fall... :cool:

RKMeibalane
07-23-2004, 04:49 PM
Well, is he having more surgery? 4-6 weeks can't be all rest?
Yes, it could. Frank has seven more weeks of his own resting to do. There's no reason to think that Maggs must have surgery just because he's going to be on the shelf until September. We'll have to wait and see what happens.

Blob
07-23-2004, 04:50 PM
Well, at least KW knows what he needs now. Hopefully he can get it!

samram
07-23-2004, 04:50 PM
I'm not sure about Walker. He can play RF, but he's also injury-prone. Do the Sox really want to trade for someone who might end up joining Frank and Maggs on the DL? Delgado is another 1B/DH type player, but he is a proven run-producer, and will fit in the middle of the lineup until Frank and Maggs are ready to return.
Yeah, I think either would be fine, but if it was Delgado, I think Everett can handle RF at USCF- it's not as big as it was 4 or 5 years ago. OTOH, Delgado has never been in a pennant race.

Baby Fisk
07-23-2004, 04:52 PM
He can't, he likes 12 or something. He's just an annoying little brat.Seriously? Damme! I stupidly assume everyone is the same age as me. In that case, shut the hell up you punk! Don't make me send Crazy Carl to find you!

:everett:
"HomeFish... HomeFish... don't make me beat yo' ass like you some kinda Darwinist. Coz I hate Darwinists."

ma_deuce
07-23-2004, 04:52 PM
JUST ON AM1000:
Maggs out 4-6 Weeks.
Now we're cooked!
Come on now, Mickster! Things aren't that bad...


...oh, who am I kidding!?!? We are doomed.

:o: :whiner: :cower: :help: :kukoo: :nuts: :thud:

nodiggity59
07-23-2004, 04:52 PM
I think even w/out Maggs and Frank we still have enough power.

The following dudes hit homers regularly: Konerko, Lee, Valentin, Everret
These do occasionally: Rowand, Uribe, Crede

I think KW should fill the teams real loss, especially from Frank, as well as Maggs: OBP!

:KW

"Paging Jason Kendall"

Win1ForMe
07-23-2004, 04:52 PM
Larry Walker will make $12 M next year. No way we go after him. Beltran could make sense, if Houston moves him. Can play CF and then Rowand/Timo could play RF until Maggs gets back.

IMO, Beltran is a better fit because he stay on the field when/IF Maggs or Frank return.

sendimjoey
07-23-2004, 04:53 PM
someone mentioned that this could eventually help the sox resign him. i doubt it. don't you think there might be a little bit of frustration with ordonez from the sox management now for his demand to play in the field when it seems obvious that he wasn't ready for that? I know he probably partly wanted to do it with the idea of helping the team and wanting to do what he could, but at the same time it seemed like sort of a selfish demand.
Maggs may have been foolishly reckless, but I don't think he was being selfish at all. This is his first serious injury, so he may not have had the right patience. It's also up to Ozzie Guillen and Herm Schneider to say, "No," if he wasn't really ready, just like a manager has to take the pitcher out, not ask him how he's doing when he's obviously about to blow the ALCS to the Yankees. (That reminded me that Grady Little now works for the Cubs :tongue: .)

RKMeibalane
07-23-2004, 04:54 PM
If KW makes a move for a big bat, it will just mean monster bench strength for games played in the fall... :cool:
Good point.

Starting Lineup:

2B- Harris
CF- Rowand
DH- Thomas
RF- Ordonez
LF- Lee
SS- Valentin
1B- Konerko
3B- Crede
C- Alomar Jr.

Bench:

Everett
Delgado
Uribe
Burke
Davis

Flight #24
07-23-2004, 04:55 PM
:everett:
Any o' you cats ever actually SEEN HomeFish? Naw, coz he doesn't exist!!! Now get out my face before my right fist jab out and send you to that so-called "moon"

Flight #24
07-23-2004, 04:56 PM
Good point.

Starting Lineup:

2B- Harris
CF- Rowand
DH- Thomas
RF- Ordonez
LF- Lee
SS- Valentin
1B- Konerko
3B- Crede
C- Alomar Jr.

Bench:

Everett
Delgado
Uribe
Burke
Davis
I like the Kendall deal a LOT better. Unless KW can use this to get Maggs resigned (I'm assuming that despite it being more like 12 weeks total with Maggs being out, that it won't impact him next year).

bennyw41
07-23-2004, 04:56 PM
If they put Maggs on the DL, they can't trade him. Is this it for the Magglio Era?

Uncle_Patrick
07-23-2004, 04:57 PM
4-6 weeks! Damn! I still think the Sox can take this division. KW needs to make a move, for sure, though.

nodiggity59
07-23-2004, 04:57 PM
I think we have to start embracing two possible realities:

1. We might not make the playoffs

2. If we do, Frank or Maggs may not be with us

Also, FWIW, Im really happy we have Garcia right about now. We're not gonna be puttin them on the board for a while

RKMeibalane
07-23-2004, 04:58 PM
Can anyone imagine what things would be like if Jerry "The Tinkerer" Manuel were still around? OMG! He'd have a field-day with his constant tinkering now that the Sox are missing their two best hitters. I shudder when thinking about the kinds of lineups he'd send out there each game.

CHISOXFAN13
07-23-2004, 04:58 PM
I think we have to start embracing two possible realities:

1. We might not make the playoffs

2. If we do, Frank or Maggs may not be with us

Also, FWIW, Im really happy we have Garcia right about now. We're not gonna be puttin them on the board for a while

We scored 14 runs and had 19 hits the other night. Maggs had two hits and didn't drive in a runner.

This is not the end of the season, people.

ma_deuce
07-23-2004, 04:59 PM
:everett:
Any o' you cats ever actually SEEN HomeFish? Naw, coz he doesn't exist!!! Now get out my face before my right fist jab out and send you to that so-called "moon"
:roflmao:

Flight #24
07-23-2004, 04:59 PM
Could we get ANY good luck? I mean we finally have a manager who can take advantage of our team talent, and we go out and make the right move to be one fo the strongest teams in the AL, and within the next month we lose our best 2 hitters for most or all of the rest of the season. Thereby causing us not only to potentially miss our best shot at the playoffs in years, but also a golden opportunity to wrest some attendance, fan support, and media support from the Chubs and their collapse.


FargleSchnickel.

EDIT: No, I'm not giving up, but the timing stinks.

RKMeibalane
07-23-2004, 05:00 PM
Kenny Williams should be talking to the media right about now. What is he saying?

Gammons Peter
07-23-2004, 05:00 PM
4-8 weeks

cheeses_h_rice
07-23-2004, 05:01 PM
On the Score, they're saying Maggs will be out about a month to let his knee fully heal.

So, essentially we'll have a .240 hitter and lesser fielder vs. a .300 hitter and good fielder. For a month.

Is this really all that insurmountable? Yes, I know it sucks on top of losing Frank, but we've added Everett as a result of that. So we're down a few pegs offensively, but with our lineup I still think we can pull through, and this ordeal may result in just a couple extra losses if any.

We'll see if KW orders any reinforcements, though. I'm not sure Borchard will thrive or even be adequate.

[edit: now the Score is saying 4 to 8 (!) weeks. OK, THAT is not good, and will require Kenny to make a deal with another team.

:(:]

Flight #24
07-23-2004, 05:01 PM
4-8 weeks
Any diagnosis? Is this just rest to reduce inflammation & pain or is there some additional healing/repair that's needed?

Kadafi311
07-23-2004, 05:02 PM
Didn't Delgado already say he isn't waiving his no-trade clause? Isn't Walker about as old as Jesus?

I'll have a large order of Finley, with a side of Benson, please.

Win1ForMe
07-23-2004, 05:02 PM
On the 4:00 update, the news guy said Maggs is out 4-8 weeks :(: , no surgery.

OEO Magglio
07-23-2004, 05:03 PM
Lets see if Kenny gets into the Steve Finley sweepstakes now.

Dadawg_77
07-23-2004, 05:03 PM
Didn't Delgado already say he isn't waiving his no-trade clause?

Isn't Walker about as old as Jesus?

Finley, please.
I think Finley is older that Walker.

ma_deuce
07-23-2004, 05:04 PM
Kenny Williams should be talking to the media right about now. What is he saying?:KW

"We are $#@&ed!"

Baby Fisk
07-23-2004, 05:06 PM
Delgado = is adamant about his no trade clause and will play out the year in Toronto, then go the FA route. Not the answer.

Walker = yes, older than Jesus. Not the answer.

KW, I do not envy you today.

chisoxfan4life
07-23-2004, 05:06 PM
I think Finley is older that Walker.
Yeah, Finley is 39 while Walker is 37.

bennyw41
07-23-2004, 05:06 PM
All these "poor us" posts are starting to make us sound like the Cubs. Every team has injuries, we just have to adjust.

Kogs35
07-23-2004, 05:07 PM
All these "poor us" posts are starting to make us sound like the Cubs. Every team has injuries, we just have to adjust.
we will adjust

pudge
07-23-2004, 05:07 PM
Now playing right field for your Chicago White Sox: Harold Baines

jeremyb1
07-23-2004, 05:08 PM
Could we get ANY good luck? I mean we finally have a manager who can take advantage of our team talent, and we go out and make the right move to be one fo the strongest teams in the AL, and within the next month we lose our best 2 hitters for most or all of the rest of the season. Thereby causing us not only to potentially miss our best shot at the playoffs in years, but also a golden opportunity to wrest some attendance, fan support, and media support from the Chubs and their collapse.


FargleSchnickel.

EDIT: No, I'm not giving up, but the timing stinks.

I'm really not trying to be a jerk and say I told you so Fight, I just want to say that when I was talking about how I find it dangerous to put your eggs in one basket for contending and also for relying on a trip to the playoffs and increased attendance in June, that these are the type of unforseen circumstances I was talking about.

Foulke You
07-23-2004, 05:09 PM
I hear Fred McGriff is looking for work!

sendimjoey
07-23-2004, 05:09 PM
Now playing right field for your Chicago White Sox: Harold Baines
Awesome post. *****.

ma_deuce
07-23-2004, 05:09 PM
Now playing right field for your Chicago White Sox: Harold Baines
Not likely. He usually naps 18 hours a day. :D:

Win1ForMe
07-23-2004, 05:09 PM
All these "poor us" posts are starting to make us sound like the Cubs. Every team has injuries, we just have to adjust.
GMAB. Please find me how many playoff teams have possible season-ending injuries to their 2 best players. Let's not try to minimize this, we've got a problem.

Kadafi311
07-23-2004, 05:09 PM
I think Finley is older that Walker.
Heh, damn you're right.

I thought Walker was 40 or 41.

Kogs35
07-23-2004, 05:11 PM
:hawk
"Hey DJ are you up for some Playing time tonight"?

Flight #24
07-23-2004, 05:11 PM
I'm really not trying to be a jerk and say I told you so Fight, I just want to say that when I was talking about how I find it dangerous to put your eggs in one basket for contending and also for relying on a trip to the playoffs and increased attendance in June, that these are the type of unforseen circumstances I was talking about.
Although the alternative unforseen circumstances would be that Reed gets hurt (or stays hurt if he's still got that wrist thing), and Olivo gets hurt. The additional risk you have with them is that they simply don't pan out.

And you'd have a much worse team this year than we do with Garcia. And a near certainty that you wont' get attendance & revenue bumps.

I still think this team can hold on (esp with Everett), but it just got a lot harder.

bennyw41
07-23-2004, 05:12 PM
GMAB. Please find me how many playoff teams have possible season-ending injuries to their 2 best players. Let's not try to minimize this, we've got a problem.
I didn't underestimate the problem, I am just saying that we will have to adjust, its not a death shot to the team though. Jesus, talk about catastrophizing

Huisj
07-23-2004, 05:14 PM
Now playing right field for your Chicago White Sox: Harold Baines
ordonez having knee problems isn't dissimilar to baines at the same stage in his career. so far it doesn't seem like it'll be as big of an issue as it was for baines in that it won't force ordonez into the DH role for the rest of his career. but it is interesting. star fan-favorite right fielder who has been a fixture on the team for a while. knee problems have now hit the last two of those that the sox have had.

cheeses_h_rice
07-23-2004, 05:15 PM
The Score is reporting that Maggs has "bone marrow edema," which is a very serious bone injury that requires complete immobilization of his knee. They say Maggs may not return this year based on how serious the injury is.

No word on whether his early return to the OF exacerbated the injury, or if this would have happened either way.

CRAP.

:angry::angry::angry:

Dadawg_77
07-23-2004, 05:16 PM
Heh, damn you're right.

I thought Walker was 40 or 41.
No Bonds is 40 today.

inta
07-23-2004, 05:16 PM
well this does suck.

but lets also realize that guys like Lee and Roward are stepping up huge lately. guys that weren't much of an offensive factor in the past... at least not to this degree.
if crazy carl stays hot and some other guys step up a bit more. we should be all good.


ozzie needs to keep this team fired up, and we can still do it. KC suffered injuries to all their big bats last year and still were able to stay in the race for most of the season.

Wanne
07-23-2004, 05:16 PM
Originally posted by Win1ForMe
Larry Walker will make $12 M next year. No way we go after him. Beltran could make sense, if Houston moves him. Can play CF and then Rowand/Timo could play RF until Maggs gets back.

IMO, Beltran is a better fit because he stay on the field when/IF Maggs or Frank return

This makes the most sense to me. Trade for Beltran...and see what his interest would be playing with the Sox long term....buh-bye Maggs!

Larry Walker has no heart...no thanks. Delgado...having a crappy year.

Kogs35
07-23-2004, 05:16 PM
The Score is reporting that Maggs has "bone marrow edema," which is a very serious bone injury that requires complete immobilization of his knee. They say Maggs may not return this year based on how serious the injury is.

No word on whether his early return to the OF exacerbated the injury, or if this would have happened either way.

CRAP.

:angry::angry::angry:
turn to espn1000 for all your whitesox news. the score is never reliable

Dadawg_77
07-23-2004, 05:17 PM
The Score is reporting that Maggs has "bone marrow edema," which is a very serious bone injury that requires complete immobilization of his knee. They say Maggs may not return this year based on how serious the injury is.

No word on whether his early return to the OF exacerbated the injury, or if this would have happened either way.

CRAP.

:angry::angry::angry:
Paging Doctor Beckett or any other Docs in the house. What does this mean? Thank you.

Jerko
07-23-2004, 05:17 PM
Thanks a lot Willie!

patbooyah
07-23-2004, 05:18 PM
think of what a boost it will be going into the playoffs to have maggs and frank come back!


woohoo!

Kadafi311
07-23-2004, 05:19 PM
I didn't underestimate the problem, I am just saying that we will have to adjust, its not a death shot to the team though. Jesus, talk about catastrophizingAgree completely.

Yes, we lost our two best hitters. Yes, it is not good. No, we're not just going to hang our heads and throw the towel in. Fortunately for us, baseball is a team sport.

Our starting pitching arguably, next to Oakland, the best staff in the AL. We have the best 1B in the AL (having a career year), the best LF in the AL (having another great year), an up-and-coming CF (having a career year), one of the best SS in the AL (having another great year), an upbeat manager, and a GM who loves to pull the trigger.

Things could be worse... lets keep those fingers off the panic button.

Baby Fisk
07-23-2004, 05:19 PM
This is thrilling stuff. Eight days to the trading deadline, we start a series with Detroit, Maggs & Frank hit the DL, nervous nellies freaking out. The part of the 2004 season by which this team will be remembered has begun. Now it's time to see what our Sox are made of. KW will make a move to bolster the offence, maybe get another arm, but for the most part it's up to the guys we've got to bring it home.

I for one like our chances. GO GO SOX!

Viva Magglio
07-23-2004, 05:20 PM
In the throng of posts in this thread, this may have been address already. But did letting Magglio come back when he did play a role in this current DL stint? In other words, did we rush him back with the result horribly backfiring? I don't know if that's the case. If it is, someone's head has to roll.

I think it's too early to tell how bad Magglio's absence will impact our chances of winning the division. The impact, of course, could be cancelled out if KW makes the right move in getting another bat. In addition to that, I think we need another arm for the rotation. One thing I am afraid of is that we'll have to mortgage whatever future we have in the minor leagues to make these moves.

cheeses_h_rice
07-23-2004, 05:21 PM
turn to espn1000 for all your whitesox news. the score is never reliable
The Score reporter was reporting what the White Sox's doctor said during his press conference on the matter. Maggs will have to be on crutches for the next 4-8 weeks, and will only be able to swim to exercise his legs.

thepaulbowski
07-23-2004, 05:21 PM
This is thrilling stuff. Eight days to the trading deadline, we start a series with Detroit, Maggs & Frank hit the DL, nervous nellies freaking out. The part of the 2004 season by which this team will be remembered has begun. Now it's time to see what our Sox are made of. KW will make a move to bolster the offence, maybe get another arm, but for the most part it's up to the guys we've got to bring it home.

I for one like our chances. GO GO SOX!
The team just needs to start making their October tee times in Florida. They can't overcome this.

JoseCanseco6969
07-23-2004, 05:22 PM
I hear Fred McGriff is looking for work!
Seriously, not sure if it was mentioned, but Olerud????? He wont cost any prospects, just a high salary and could DH with crazy carl in RF. anyone think this would make sense?

cheeses_h_rice
07-23-2004, 05:22 PM
In the throng of posts in this thread, this may have been address already. But did letting Magglio come back when he did play a role in this current DL stint? In other words, did we rush him back with the result horribly backfiring? I don't know if that's the case. If it is, someone's head has to roll.

I think it's too early to tell how bad Magglio's absence will impact our chances of winning the division. The impact, of course, could be cancelled out if KW makes the right move in getting another bat. In addition to that, I think we need another arm for the rotation. One thing I am afraid of is that we'll have to mortgage whatever future we have in the minor leagues to make these moves.
The report I heard made it sound like they weren't certain if the early return from surgery may have had a role. They said it was possible that this injury/condition would have occurred/popped up no matter what.

Could be some passing of the buck, but we'll probably never know...

:angry::angry::angry:

Wanne
07-23-2004, 05:22 PM
In the throng of posts in this thread, this may have been address already. But did letting Magglio come back when he did play a role in this current DL stint? In other words, did we rush him back with the result horribly backfiring? I don't know if that's the case. If it is, someone's head has to roll.

I think it's too early to tell how bad Magglio's absence will impact our chances of winning the division. The impact, of course, could be cancelled out if KW makes the right move in getting another bat. In addition to that, I think we need another arm for the rotation. One thing I am afraid of is that we'll have to mortgage whatever future we have in the minor leagues to make these moves.

Not to mention if this would open up the gates for some sort of litigation on Maggs part towards the team if they said he was ok to come back...especially if this drops his value in the FA market next year.

Flight #24
07-23-2004, 05:23 PM
In the throng of posts in this thread, this may have been address already. But did letting Magglio come back when he did play a role in this current DL stint? In other words, did we rush him back with the result horribly backfiring? I don't know if that's the case. If it is, someone's head has to roll.
I don't think so, IIRC Maggs was scheduled to do a rehav stint in the minors, then when Frank went down they decided to just do that in the majors. So I don't see how he was rushed back to playing.

I think it's too early to tell how bad Magglio's absence will impact our chances of winning the division. The impact, of course, could be cancelled out if KW makes the right move in getting another bat. In addition to that, I think we need another arm for the rotation. One thing I am afraid of is that we'll have to mortgage whatever future we have in the minor leagues to make these moves.True. Hopefully this also lowers Maggs asking price and maybe we can get him resigned.

Kogs35
07-23-2004, 05:23 PM
The Score reporter was reporting what the White Sox's doctor said during his press conference on the matter. Maggs will have to be on crutches for the next 4-8 weeks, and will only be able to swim to exercise his legs.
ok thats all fine and dandy but i never would use the score for anything really reliable

Flight #24
07-23-2004, 05:24 PM
The Score reporter was reporting what the White Sox's doctor said during his press conference on the matter. Maggs will have to be on crutches for the next 4-8 weeks, and will only be able to swim to exercise his legs.
That sounds more like 8-12 weeks. If he's on crutches for 8, then he'll need an extra couple before he's ready to play.

thepaulbowski
07-23-2004, 05:24 PM
In the throng of posts in this thread, this may have been address already. But did letting Magglio come back when he did play a role in this current DL stint? In other words, did we rush him back with the result horribly backfiring? I don't know if that's the case. If it is, someone's head has to roll.Or another equally important question, was Magglio honest when answering questions on how his knee felt? Doctors can't take a MRI or X-Ray and see pain.

Malgar 12
07-23-2004, 05:24 PM
ok thats all fine and dandy but i never would use the score for anything really reliable
"CHICAGO -- Prior to tonight's game vs. Detroit, the Chicago White Sox placed outfielder Magglio Ordonez on the 15-day disabled list (retroactive to July 22) with bone marrow edema in his left knee and recalled outfielder Joe Borchard from Class AAA Charlotte.
Ordonez, 30, will be on crutches in a non-weight bearing mode for 4-8 weeks, with only a swimming exercise regimen. He will be re-evaluated by White Sox team physicians after four weeks to determine whether he can begin a rehabilitation program. "

http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/cws/news/cws_press_release.jsp?ymd=20040723&content_id=807498&vkey=pr_cws&fext=.jsp

Over By There
07-23-2004, 05:26 PM
Regarding whether Maggs was rushed back, and whether it lead to this...

FWIW, I seem to remember a few days back that Maggs specifically requested that Ozzie play him in RF instead of at DH. If I'm remembering that correctly, then I think there's shared culpability - it wasn't just the Sox rushing him back on the field against his wishes.

patbooyah
07-23-2004, 05:28 PM
things like this are what makes baseball exciting.

Flight #24
07-23-2004, 05:29 PM
FWIW, Websters has

Noun1.edema - swelling (http://www.webster-dictionary.org/definition/swelling) from (http://www.webster-dictionary.org/definition/from) excessive (http://www.webster-dictionary.org/definition/excessive) accumulation (http://www.webster-dictionary.org/definition/accumulation) of (http://www.webster-dictionary.org/definition/of) serous (http://www.webster-dictionary.org/definition/serous) fluid (http://www.webster-dictionary.org/definition/fluid) in (http://www.webster-dictionary.org/definition/in) tissue (http://www.webster-dictionary.org/definition/tissue)

So it doesn't sound like structural damage, more like an infection. It's also linked with osteoarthritis in the Google results.

Non weight bearing for 4-8 weeks sounds bad, worse than the initial injury. Beckett - I'm sure you can enlighten us, where are you man!!

Dadawg_77
07-23-2004, 05:32 PM
FWIW, Websters has

Noun1.edema - swelling (http://www.webster-dictionary.org/definition/swelling) from (http://www.webster-dictionary.org/definition/from) excessive (http://www.webster-dictionary.org/definition/excessive) accumulation (http://www.webster-dictionary.org/definition/accumulation) of (http://www.webster-dictionary.org/definition/of) serous (http://www.webster-dictionary.org/definition/serous) fluid (http://www.webster-dictionary.org/definition/fluid) in (http://www.webster-dictionary.org/definition/in) tissue (http://www.webster-dictionary.org/definition/tissue)

So it doesn't sound like structural damage, more like an infection. It's also linked with osteoarthritis in the Google results.

Non weight bearing for 4-8 weeks sounds bad, worse than the initial injury. Beckett - I'm sure you can enlighten us, where are you man!!
That is a lot better then what WebMD was telling me, it kept going to pages about leukemia.

dickallen15
07-23-2004, 05:34 PM
Regarding whether Maggs was rushed back, and whether it lead to this...

FWIW, I seem to remember a few days back that Maggs specifically requested that Ozzie play him in RF instead of at DH. If I'm remembering that correctly, then I think there's shared culpability - it wasn't just the Sox rushing him back on the field against his wishes.There's no shared culpability. Ozzie is the manager, he is in charge. I suppose he would ask Herm, but if that is what caused this condition, either Ozzie or Herm or both should be immediately fired. Besides the question, did he come back too soon? Other questions I have are Did this condition exist before he had the surgery? If it did, how was it missed on 4 or 5 examinations, and picked up almost immediately here? Was his surgery botched up, and could that have caused this condition? Let's face it, he's done for the season.

Wealz
07-23-2004, 05:35 PM
Preface this by saying I'm not a doctor and take this for what it's worth, but a quick google search on bone marrow edema turned up this article from the Boston University School of Medicine, September 2, 2003.

"Bone marrow edema is a potent risk factor for structural deterioration in knee osteoarthritis, and its relation to progression is explained in part by its association with limb alignment."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=12965941

sendimjoey
07-23-2004, 05:36 PM
Regarding whether Maggs was rushed back, and whether it lead to this...

FWIW, I seem to remember a few days back that Maggs specifically requested that Ozzie play him in RF instead of at DH. If I'm remembering that correctly, then I think there's shared culpability - it wasn't just the Sox rushing him back on the field against his wishes.
Exactly. It's a two-way street. He has to be honest about his condition and the team has to be sure it has his best interests at heart. I think Schneider has a good track record -- he's been the trainer, I think, the entire 25+ years I've been a Sox fan. Maggs, as I posted earlier, hasn't had a major injury before and may have been overeager to get back out there. It may have been unwise, but he's no malingerer, I guess.

Flight #24
07-23-2004, 05:36 PM
Preface this by saying I'm not a doctor and take this for what it's worth, but a quick google search on bone marrow edema turned up this article from the Boston University School of Medicine, September 2, 2003.

"Bone marrow edema is a potent risk factor for structural deterioration in knee osteoarthritis, and its relation to progression is explained in part by its association with limb alignment."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=12965941
It's odd. I understand each of the words in that statement individually, but have almost no idea what they mean when put together like that.:?:

joeynach
07-23-2004, 05:38 PM
Can someone please explain what bone marrow edema is. How you get it, what it does to you and so on. Apparently its can turn your bones brown and icky or something and possibly lead to osteoarthritus in the bone (knee). Sounds very serious and possible career ending. Anyone with any knoweldge please share. Thanks!

Dadawg_77
07-23-2004, 05:38 PM
It's odd. I understand each of the words in that statement individually, but have almost no idea what they mean when put together like that.:?:
Thats what they teach you in medical school.

Cowch44
07-23-2004, 05:39 PM
whatever it is...it sounds kinda bad.:?:

Rocky Soprano
07-23-2004, 05:40 PM
Marrow edema is a generalized response to either trauma or stress of the bone marrow. Bone marrow edema may be the first recognizable MR finding in many conditions, including transient synovitis, trauma, stress, infection, ischemia, tumor and reflex sympathetic dystrophy. MR imaging is exquisitely sensitive for detecting the presence of marrow edema.

http://www.mvhs.org/mrbonemarrow.htm

joeynach
07-23-2004, 05:42 PM
Marrow edema is a generalized response to either trauma or stress of the bone marrow. Bone marrow edema may be the first recognizable MR finding in many conditions, including transient synovitis, trauma, stress, infection, ischemia, tumor and reflex sympathetic dystrophy. MR imaging is exquisitely sensitive for detecting the presence of marrow edema.

http://www.mvhs.org/mrbonemarrow.htm
How in the heck do you get truama to the bone marrow from playing baseball. I hope for his sake it a genetic thing so he knows where it came from. But still this has to be one of the strangest thing i have ever heard.

flo-B-flo
07-23-2004, 05:43 PM
Agree completely.

Yes, we lost our two best hitters. Yes, it is not good. No, we're not just going to hang our heads and throw the towel in. Fortunately for us, baseball is a team sport.

Our starting pitching arguably, next to Oakland, the best staff in the AL. We have the best 1B in the AL (having a career year), the best LF in the AL (having another great year), an up-and-coming CF (having a career year), one of the best SS in the AL (having another great year), an upbeat manager, and a GM who loves to pull the trigger.

Things could be worse... lets keep those fingers off the panic button. What I'm saying! Even with Frank and Maggs a good pitching performance can STILL shut us down. Our pitching staff has to step up and keep up the charge until the big guns come back. Onward and upward. GO-GO SOX!!!!!!!

Wealz
07-23-2004, 05:47 PM
At the very least it looks like Maggs is done for the year. It looks like bone marrow edema increases the chances of osteoarthritis and other deterioration of the knee. Terrible news for the Sox and especially Maggs in his free agency year.

cheeses_h_rice
07-23-2004, 05:48 PM
Do you think Maggs is regretting he didn't accept the Sox's best offer earlier this year?

Rocky Soprano
07-23-2004, 05:48 PM
All because of two players trying to hustle for a damn fly ball! :whiner:

Kadafi311
07-23-2004, 05:49 PM
How in the heck do you get truama to the bone marrow from playing baseball.When Willie Harris attempts to field your flyball in RF.

OurBitchinMinny
07-23-2004, 05:55 PM
Good point.

Starting Lineup:

2B- Harris
CF- Rowand
DH- Thomas
RF- Ordonez
LF- Lee
SS- Valentin
1B- Konerko
3B- Crede
C- Alomar Jr.

Bench:

Everett
Delgado
Uribe
Burke
Davis

While there is no question it would be a monster bench, I dont think everett and delgado are gonna be satisfied sitting on the bench. If they do get back I think you will see everett back in CF, w/ rowand off the bench. I dont think frank is gonna be back so delgado might be safe in the dh role. However I dont think the sox are gonna be getting delgado and I dont really want him on the team.

Over By There
07-23-2004, 05:56 PM
There's no shared culpability. Ozzie is the manager, he is in charge. I suppose he would ask Herm, but if that is what caused this condition, either Ozzie or Herm or both should be immediately fired. Besides the question, did he come back too soon? Other questions I have are Did this condition exist before he had the surgery? If it did, how was it missed on 4 or 5 examinations, and picked up almost immediately here? Was his surgery botched up, and could that have caused this condition? Let's face it, he's done for the season.

Let's assume for a minute that Herm and the gang are not idiots and wouldn't have missed something if it was obvious. (After all, until about an hour ago, all I've ever heard is how the Sox training staff is the best in the business.)

People are expressing concern that the Sox training and coahing staff screwed up majorly, and someone even went as far as to suggest that maybe Maggs would sue the club if this screws up his free agency. My point is that if everything looked fine a few days ago, and Maggs was actually in the position of having to convince Ozzie to play him in the field instead of at DH, there is at least shared culpability.

So, either:
A) Maggs was hurting, and didn't express it,

B) Maggs wasn't hurting and everything seemed to be going according to plan, or

C) The Sox, in an act of malice or extreme incompetence, ruined their best player's knee in the thick of a divisional race.

I guess you're saying C) is the most likely. Otherwise, it's bad luck, or at least shared culpability.

CWSGuy406
07-23-2004, 05:58 PM
When Willie Harris attempts to field your flyball in RF.
I really hope you're not serious in holding Harris accountable for this injury...

Chek2002
07-23-2004, 05:59 PM
The Chicago Tribune said that Ordonez will be re-evaluate in four weeks, so he is out at least a month. The article said he could be out up to two months. This is definitely a big loss. Here is the link to the article:
http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-040723soxordonez,1,5296152.story?coll=cs-whitesox-headlines
:(:

Kadafi311
07-23-2004, 05:59 PM
I really hope you're not serious in holding Harris accountable for this injury...
Not at all, I was just answering his question.

jabrch
07-23-2004, 05:59 PM
Do you think Maggs is regretting he didn't accept the Sox's best offer earlier this year?
If he had two working legs, he'd be kicking himself.

jeremyb1
07-23-2004, 06:00 PM
Although the alternative unforseen circumstances would be that Reed gets hurt (or stays hurt if he's still got that wrist thing), and Olivo gets hurt. The additional risk you have with them is that they simply don't pan out.

And you'd have a much worse team this year than we do with Garcia. And a near certainty that you wont' get attendance & revenue bumps.

I still think this team can hold on (esp with Everett), but it just got a lot harder.

Well I guess but if we don't make the playoffs it'd be hard to argue we benefitted at all from the Garcia deal. Reed and Morse would have to both fail to make any kind of signficant contribution at the big league level and Olivo would have to fall off the face of the earth or sustain some sort of career ending injury to secure the same results on the other side I feel.

I agree we're not out of it by any means. I saw us as first place team without Everett and Garcia (although with Frank and Maggs in the second half). We'll have to see how much of the blow they can absorb. The Twins aren't a great team by any means but they have been giving Morneau regular playing time. They'll be tougher if that continues.

Flight #24
07-23-2004, 06:01 PM
Well I guess but if we don't make the playoffs it'd be hard to argue we benefitted at all from the Garcia deal. Reed and Morse would have to both fail to make any kind of signficant contribution at the big league level and Olivo would have to fall off the face of the earth or sustain some sort of career ending injury to secure the same results on the other side I feel.
So - Reed would have to continue as has has so far in AAA, and Olivo would have to continue to ahve problems hitting RHP. And Morse would have to continue to be unable to play SS or hit well enough to be a good 1B prospect.

DickAllen72
07-23-2004, 06:02 PM
How in the heck do you get truama to the bone marrow from playing baseball. I hope for his sake it a genetic thing so he knows where it came from. But still this has to be one of the strangest thing i have ever heard.

From colliding knee first with Willie Harris maybe?

Tavarin
07-23-2004, 06:02 PM
Hey Houston, we'll take Beltran off your hands.. :cool:

Mickster
07-23-2004, 06:04 PM
What would Billy Beane do??? :?:

Tavarin
07-23-2004, 06:04 PM
Well I guess but if we don't make the playoffs it'd be hard to argue we benefitted at all from the Garcia deal. Reed and Morse would have to both fail to make any kind of signficant contribution at the big league level and Olivo would have to fall off the face of the earth or sustain some sort of career ending injury to secure the same results on the other side I feel.

I agree we're not out of it by any means. I saw us as first place team without Everett and Garcia (although with Frank and Maggs in the second half). We'll have to see how much of the blow they can absorb. The Twins aren't a great team by any means but they have been giving Morneau regular playing time. They'll be tougher if that continues.

Do you have to take everything that happens to the Sox and try and make the Garcia trade bad? It happened, it's done with. STOP COMPLAINING ABOUT IT

jabrch
07-23-2004, 06:11 PM
So - Reed would have to continue as has has so far in AAA, and Olivo would have to continue to ahve problems hitting RHP. And Morse would have to continue to be unable to play SS or hit well enough to be a good 1B prospect.

***** - meanwhile, Oakland's GM is a hero since he has won what exactly?

Mickster
07-23-2004, 06:12 PM
So - Reed would have to continue as has has so far in AAA, and Olivo would have to continue to ahve problems hitting RHP. And Morse would have to continue to be unable to play SS or hit well enough to be a good 1B prospect.
:supernana: :supernana: :supernana: :supernana: :supernana:

jeremyb1
07-23-2004, 06:14 PM
So - Reed would have to continue as has has so far in AAA, and Olivo would have to continue to ahve problems hitting RHP. And Morse would have to continue to be unable to play SS or hit well enough to be a good 1B prospect.

Well there's two different issues here:

1) You argued that we could afford to sign Garcia to a deal averaging 9 million over the next three seasons because our attendance was on the rise and that we would generate several million from a playoff series at the end of the season. I argued that those factors are far from certain and you should only sign a player with 9 million you know you'd rather spend on him than anyone else you can sign or resign in the offseason. I think this episode highly supports my claim that the increased revenue and playoff series should never have been relied on as a sure thing.

2) As far as the Garcia trade, we made that deal to secure his services for the duration of the season and to have him bolster our World Series chances. If you're still going to argue that we traded Olivo, Reed, and Morse for 3.5 seasons of Garcia I guess we're at an impasse especially since there's the 9 million a season included in there. I don't see it that way as I see the move entirely as a deal to win this year. If our chances to win a World Series become seriously hindered or eliminated with the injuries to Frank and Maggs I'd argue as I have all along that it is wreckless to risk too much future success for one season because anything can happen in one year. You're right anything can happen in the future but the odds of freak injuries and the like every season over a period of several seasons is lesser than the chances of it happening in one season. IE, a team with a 15% chance of winning a Series over the course of three seasons has a greater chance of a Series than a team with a 20% chance of winning a Series over just one season.

jeremyb1
07-23-2004, 06:14 PM
***** - meanwhile, Oakland's GM is a hero since he has won what exactly?

He's a success because he's allowed his team four chances to win the World Series in the playoffs, our GM has given his team none.

Mickster
07-23-2004, 06:15 PM
In this great time of uncertainty, we must sit back and reflect.......some might say even to pray to a higher being for answers.......




:worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: :fobbgod:

South Side
07-23-2004, 06:17 PM
Paging Carlos Beltran. Boarding all flights to Chicago...

SpringfldFan
07-23-2004, 06:18 PM
Not to sound pessismistic, but if Mags is done for the season, and signs with another team next year at a bargain rate, do the Sox get the same kind of compensation that they would have originally?

Also, am I correct in assuming that if Mags' career is now over (not that it is likely mind you), that the Sox will not get *any* compensation? Boy, that would sure suck :whiner:

jabrch
07-23-2004, 06:19 PM
Not to sound pessismistic, but if Mags is done for the season, and signs with another team next year at a bargain rate, do the Sox get the same kind of compensation that they would have originally?

Also, am I correct in assuming that if Mags' career is now over (not that it is likely mind you), that the Sox will not get *any* compensation? Boy, that would sure suck :whiner:
If we offer him arbitration and he rejects and signs elsewhere, you compensation, in all likelihood, would still be a #1 and a supplemental pick.

If he retires, we get nothing.

Deadguy
07-23-2004, 06:25 PM
I don't know what this will do to Magglio's market value, but if I was him, I'd probably try to sign a one year deal with some team for around 10 million, put up gigantic numbers, and then go for a longterm contract (like Gonzalez did to a lesser extent, in 2001).

I have to figure that other teams are seriously going to question Mags' durability, and will be reluctant to offer him a longterm contract of 50+ million. They will want to see how he reacts to this in the next season.

OurBitchinMinny
07-23-2004, 06:30 PM
He's a success because he's allowed his team four chances to win the World Series in the playoffs, our GM has given his team none.
Our GM has given his team none? Thats bull. He went out last year and bolstered this team. This team flat out choked down the stretch, mostly players who were there before he took the reigns. He has not been perfect but he has given this team a chance to win. The twins have not been better talent wise the last 2 years. They have been better coached and got more bounces. KW has given this team a chance.

Baby Fisk
07-23-2004, 06:37 PM
He's a success because he's allowed his team four chances to win the World Series in the playoffs, our GM has given his team none.Y'all are hilarious with this Kenny vs. Billy thing. How much more over the top will this get? Let's see, have we argued about who has the hotter wife yet? Which GM has the bigger house? What the hell, let's compare their career batting stats:

Billy Beane (1984-1989)
GP 148
BA .206
H 66
HR 3
RBI 29
OBP .213

Kenny Williams (1986-1991)
GP 451
BA .218
H 252
HR 27
RBI 119
OBP .269

:KW
"YESSSSSS! Who's the bigger man now, biatch?!"

:hawk
"That would be me. I hit 35 home runs in 1968, when you were both still in short pants. Mercy!"

idseer
07-23-2004, 06:38 PM
Our GM has given his team none? Thats bull. He went out last year and bolstered this team. This team flat out choked down the stretch, mostly players who were there before he took the reigns. He has not been perfect but he has given this team a chance to win. The twins have not been better talent wise the last 2 years. They have been better coached and got more bounces. KW has given this team a chance.
but one thing kw did screw up badly was in letting jerry manuel hang around way too long. to save a few bucks we were stuck with a totally worthless manager and imo that was the biggest problem the last 2 years.
that being said, you cannot blame kw for not trying to bring chicago a winner. he's done some very good things with some very limited resources.

jeremyb1
07-23-2004, 06:38 PM
Our GM has given his team none? Thats bull. He went out last year and bolstered this team. This team flat out choked down the stretch, mostly players who were there before he took the reigns. He has not been perfect but he has given this team a chance to win. The twins have not been better talent wise the last 2 years. They have been better coached and got more bounces. KW has given this team a chance.

Well you can't win the World Series if you're not in the playoffs. That's all I'm saying. I guess you could argue he's done everything he could to put the best team on the field time and time again but unforseen circumstances and bad luck have been the problem. I'd have to disagree but you could argue it I guess.

jeremyb1
07-23-2004, 06:39 PM
In this great time of uncertainty, we must sit back and reflect.......some might say even to pray to a higher being for answers.......

Do you have anything else? Are you at all capable of reasoning or just labeling and insulting people in a misguided attempt to get your point across? I'm not sure I've seen a substantive post from you in the last two days despite quite a few posts.

nitetrain8601
07-23-2004, 06:39 PM
He's out for 6-8 weeks? This season is over unless we get Beltran. He's no longer a luxury need, he's a necessity.

idseer
07-23-2004, 06:40 PM
i just found out about magglio.

bad deal, BUT ... this team will live or die on it's pitching. and right now i'd say their pitching looks awfully good. this division is still ours to take.

South Side
07-23-2004, 06:40 PM
He's out for 6-8 weeks? This season is over unless we get Beltran. He's no longer a luxury need, he's a necessity.

Good to know that you can see the future. :rolleyes:

jeremyb1
07-23-2004, 06:41 PM
Y'all are hilarious with this Kenny vs. Billy thing. How much more over the top will this get? Let's see, have we argued about who has the hotter wife yet? Which GM has the bigger house? What the hell, let's compare their career batting stats

As I've said, I never specifically bring Billy Beane into these conversations. It's always someone else. Maybe I should stop responding, I don't know.

beckett21
07-23-2004, 06:43 PM
I'll try to shed some light on this if I can, again keep in mind I do not treat knees because I am a podiatrist by trade. But this can be seen in the ankle and foot as well (if interested look up *osteochondritis dessicans*).

*Bone marrow edema* is a general term that basically refers to swelling/inflammation of the bone marrow. In this case I would assume it was due to trauma.

Think of it as a bone bruise. The cause in this case was probably an impact trauma when the femur (thigh bone) impacted the tibia (leg bone).

This can be a precursor or indicator of arthritis. Cartilage is soft, and when bones impact (ankle sprains, knee sprains/injuries) and *bump* together, the cartilage can be damaged from the impact. Rarely if ever is this seen on X-ray. It is much easier to see on MRI, because you cannot typically see cartilage on an x-ray. The cartilage then softens further, and eventually degenerates causing arthritis.

What they are probably seeing now is a *hotspot* of fluid or inflammation under the articular cartilage (the cartilage that covers the ends of the bones--different from the meniscus). If the articular cartilage was damaged, they probably would have seen this in the scope or on the MRI. So hopefully it has not degenerated yet. But the bone marrow edema indicates that the cartilage may be soft and susceptible to further injury at this time. So if the cartilage is not degenerated yet, if he keeps playing/walking on the knee he could potentially cause further damage and break down this cartilage, leading to osteoarthritis.

Immobilization and nonweightbearing is the first line of treatment. They will probably do a couple of follow-up MRI's to monitor the progress, to see if this edema resolves/dissipates, which would indicate healing. This is what they will be looking for in 4 weeks. If not then surgery may be an option, but hopefully this will get better with proper rest.

Is he done for the season? I don't know. I wouldn't count on him though.

Can this affect him in the future? Sure could, if he develops arthritis. Too early to tell now, I'm guessing.

Again, I am not a knee specialist nor do I claim to be. Yes I am hedging here!

I am just a lowly podiatrist :redneck , so do not take my word on this as gospel. I see similar conditions in the ankle, but I cannot fully correlate this with a knee. So take it with a grain of salt.

Hope it helps.

Baby Fisk
07-23-2004, 06:44 PM
As I've said, I never specifically bring Billy Beane into these conversations. It's always someone else. Maybe I should stop responding, I don't know.You've made all the points you can from your side of the argument. I agree with another poster who said that it tends to be the BB haters who start the comparisons. Don't go for the bait! We know where you stand!

Mickster
07-23-2004, 06:54 PM
Do you have anything else? Are you at all capable of reasoning or just labeling and insulting people in a misguided attempt to get your point across? I'm not sure I've seen a substantive post from you in the last two days despite quite a few posts.I am being sarcastic because the exact same arguemnts are being hashed by the FOBB as they were months ago. The thread starts about Maggs being on the DL, Flight 24 makes a post about bad luck, then somehow Olivo and Reed are being discussed. I am sorry if I find that hilarious! It's pretty pathetic and getting quite old. As long as people will be discussing the "ill-fated" trade that happened weeks ago, manage to make reference to it in numerous posts, then I will find it fit to make sarcastic comments.

Ask me if I am capable of reasoning? Read through some of the posts. Quite honestly I feel that there are excellent points brought about on both sides of the arguement. The problem is that the "FOBB" always seem to attempt to shoot down EVERY single viable point, no matter how insignificant.

Sox Mobile
07-23-2004, 07:00 PM
Beckett, thanx for your input, alot of posters were hoping you would show up!

beckett21
07-23-2004, 07:03 PM
Beckett, thanx for your input, alot of posters were hoping you would show up!
:redface:

When duty calls, I will be here!

Thanks for the confidence folks. I'll try not to steer you astray.

owensmouth
07-23-2004, 07:05 PM
Maggs is supposed to be receiving 14 million this year. The White Sox undoubtedly have insured him. How much of that 14 million will be returned to the Sox who will then be able to use it on a replacement for Maggs?

Deadguy
07-23-2004, 07:20 PM
Maggs is supposed to be receiving 14 million this year. The White Sox undoubtedly have insured him. How much of that 14 million will be returned to the Sox who will then be able to use it on a replacement for Maggs?
Probably 0. I'm not sure that the White Sox have insurance coverage for Magglio this season, but even if they did, he'd probably have to miss over 75% of the season for the White Sox to be able to receive insurance compensation.

I remember before the season, the Orioles were trying to get the money back on the 7 million owed to David Segui this season, and they weren't able to get it.

Lip Man 1
07-23-2004, 07:23 PM
I could be really sarcastic and bring up Herm Schneider's comment yesterday on White Sox.com about 'not being concerned...' etc. but I won't. I'm to bummed out.

All I can say is that at least Williams knows what he has to do, and he still has time to the trade deadline to get a solution if he can. That's a positive to all this. If not and people like Ross Gload and Jamie Burke have to carry an extensive load we're screwed.

I'm still trying to figure out how a 'strained calf muscle' can turn into 'bone marrow endema.'

And yes I DO think the collision with Harris, in a blow out win, started the Sox down this avenue.

In 2000 the pitching blew apart with injuries and cost the Sox...in 2004 it looks like the hitting is blowing apart.

'Bone marrow endema...' what are the odds, a billion to one?

and the White Sox luck continues... Christ.

Lip

owensmouth
07-23-2004, 07:26 PM
Probably 0. I'm not sure that the White Sox have insurance coverage for Magglio this season, but even if they did, he'd probably have to miss over 75% of the season for the White Sox to be able to receive insurance compensation.

I remember before the season, the Orioles were trying to get the money back on the 7 million owed to David Segui this season, and they weren't able to get it.
He may be out pretty close to 75%

MikeKreevich
07-23-2004, 07:28 PM
Stick a fork in us, we're done.You're serious, right? After all the flack you've taken about being negative, a post like this. Your life must be all cloudy weather and bad news.

Huisj
07-23-2004, 07:39 PM
He may be out pretty close to 75%
he's played 50 some games. so maybe 65% or so.

CanOfCorn
07-23-2004, 07:41 PM
We're a half game out. We still have big bats. KW's determined. Our pitching staff is picking up the slack for once.

Everything's gravy, baby.

owensmouth
07-23-2004, 07:48 PM
We're a half game out. We still have big bats. KW's determined. Our pitching staff is picking up the slack for once.

Everything's gravy, baby.
Dunno about gravy, but we're a long way from dead.

eurotrash35
07-23-2004, 08:58 PM
beckett, you're the man. thanks for all the medical input during our injury crisis threads. :cool:

beckett21
07-23-2004, 09:56 PM
beckett, you're the man. thanks for all the medical input during our injury crisis threads. :cool:
Thank you.

I only wish I didn't have to do it so often lately. :(:

Lip Man 1
07-23-2004, 11:29 PM
This is from the AP recap of the Friday game. I have no idea where they got the information:

"Ordonez, a four-time All-Star, went back on the disabled list Friday and could spend up to eight weeks on crutches. The outfielder has a fluid problem in his knee, stemming from a collision the All-Star right fielder had with second baseman Willie Harris on May 19 in Cleveland."
Lip

Flight #24
07-23-2004, 11:56 PM
Well there's two different issues here:

1) You argued that we could afford to sign Garcia to a deal averaging 9 million over the next three seasons because our attendance was on the rise and that we would generate several million from a playoff series at the end of the season. I argued that those factors are far from certain and you should only sign a player with 9 million you know you'd rather spend on him than anyone else you can sign or resign in the offseason. I think this episode highly supports my claim that the increased revenue and playoff series should never have been relied on as a sure thing.
I don't think the attendance was relied on as a sure thing, it was relied on as a highly likely thing. It took a pretty unlikely sequence of events for it even to come into question, i.e. significant injuries to 2 of the best hitters in the game. I also think that in any scenario, the team does better this year with the trade, so attendance and therefore payroll are better than it would have been. Without making the trade, the Sox attendance & payroll would likely decline from last year (i.e. we still wouldn't have Maggs&Frank, we have Olivo but no SP). A decline in payroll, or even a flat payroll doesn't let you do a ton since you have about 10mil in increases already that eat up a lot of your expring contract value.

The Sox are not in position to make these types of moves and have the type of attendance impact very often. If you pass the chances up, you'll never get it (and I don't see how you get it with a loss of Maggs and keeping Reed+Olivo next year, even if you sign Garcia - that teams' worse than this team is now, making it less likely that you'd win and get the attendance then, thereby perpetuating the cycle of "good-but-never-great that we've been in).



2) As far as the Garcia trade, we made that deal to secure his services for the duration of the season and to have him bolster our World Series chances. If you're still going to argue that we traded Olivo, Reed, and Morse for 3.5 seasons of Garcia I guess we're at an impasse especially since there's the 9 million a season included in there. I don't see it that way as I see the move entirely as a deal to win this year. If our chances to win a World Series become seriously hindered or eliminated with the injuries to Frank and Maggs I'd argue as I have all along that it is wreckless to risk too much future success for one season because anything can happen in one year. You're right anything can happen in the future but the odds of freak injuries and the like every season over a period of several seasons is lesser than the chances of it happening in one season. IE, a team with a 15% chance of winning a Series over the course of three seasons has a greater chance of a Series than a team with a 20% chance of winning a Series over just one season.
I guess my feeling is that given the likely loss of Maggs, I don't see how a team with Maggs AND Garcia only has a 5% greater chance to win a WS than a team with Garcia (or equivalent) and Reed+Olivo. This year's team has a much higher differential over that potential next year team, and that's before you factor in the potential attendance increase and subsequent payroll. And by the way - this team has a much better chance of seeing that happen, even without Maggs & Thomas than we would have had of even maintaining attendance & payroll in the world where we kept Reed+Olivo and still lost Maggs & Thomas.

I also think that one possibly overlooked piece is that Kenny's tired of a strategy whereby the Sox are always good, but never great. It's not unlikely that looking at the great teams & recent WS champs, that he realizes one major advantage they have is occasional high picks. You take your shot, increase your chance for a year or 2. If you make it, you're golden. If you don't, you end up sucking and in position to draft a stud difference-maker ala Mulder, Zito, Sheets, etc. Those type of cheap stars can make it easier to build a potential WS team, although it'll take a few years to get there.

he_gone_89
07-24-2004, 12:35 AM
I'll try to shed some light on this if I can, again keep in mind I do not treat knees because I am a podiatrist by trade. But this can be seen in the ankle and foot as well (if interested look up *osteochondritis dessicans*).

*Bone marrow edema* is a general term that basically refers to swelling/inflammation of the bone marrow. In this case I would assume it was due to trauma.

Think of it as a bone bruise. The cause in this case was probably an impact trauma when the femur (thigh bone) impacted the tibia (leg bone).

This can be a precursor or indicator of arthritis. Cartilage is soft, and when bones impact (ankle sprains, knee sprains/injuries) and *bump* together, the cartilage can be damaged from the impact. Rarely if ever is this seen on X-ray. It is much easier to see on MRI, because you cannot typically see cartilage on an x-ray. The cartilage then softens further, and eventually degenerates causing arthritis.

What they are probably seeing now is a *hotspot* of fluid or inflammation under the articular cartilage (the cartilage that covers the ends of the bones--different from the meniscus). If the articular cartilage was damaged, they probably would have seen this in the scope or on the MRI. So hopefully it has not degenerated yet. But the bone marrow edema indicates that the cartilage may be soft and susceptible to further injury at this time. So if the cartilage is not degenerated yet, if he keeps playing/walking on the knee he could potentially cause further damage and break down this cartilage, leading to osteoarthritis.

Immobilization and nonweightbearing is the first line of treatment. They will probably do a couple of follow-up MRI's to monitor the progress, to see if this edema resolves/dissipates, which would indicate healing. This is what they will be looking for in 4 weeks. If not then surgery may be an option, but hopefully this will get better with proper rest.

Is he done for the season? I don't know. I wouldn't count on him though.

Can this affect him in the future? Sure could, if he develops arthritis. Too early to tell now, I'm guessing.

Again, I am not a knee specialist nor do I claim to be. Yes I am hedging here!

I am just a lowly podiatrist :redneck , so do not take my word on this as gospel. I see similar conditions in the ankle, but I cannot fully correlate this with a knee. So take it with a grain of salt.

Hope it helps.

I dunno,but i told my dad about this and he said that
"this can and usually does cause infection in between the femur and tibia and that he MIGHT be out for the year."

so its not lookin pretty at all,my guess is we have seen the end of maggs in chi-town. Hopefully I am wrong.

Lip Man 1
07-24-2004, 12:43 AM
Now I know where the A.P. got their information. This is from Bill Jauss's story in the Tribune:

"Ordonez's injury was diagnosed Friday as bone marrow edema in his left knee. He was scheduled to start Thursday in Cleveland before extreme pain forced him out of the lineup. He flew to Chicago, where team doctor Charles Bush-Joseph, who performed arthroscopic surgery on Ordonez's knee June 5, examined him.

Bush-Joseph explained edema is "a swelling of the bone itself due to a congestion of blood in the bone. It's very painful. It was probably caused by the original injury, a collision in the outfield (with Willie Harris on May 19 in Cleveland), a traumatic blow to the front of the knee."

Questions for Dr. Beckett: With such a violent collision is it common practice to examine the knee for this condition?

Is this such a rare occurance that it is simply not considered?

During the surgery and subsequent rehab wouldn't the knee give any indications of this edema?

Why suddenly in the last ten days that Maggs has tried to play has this happened? Why not in the month of rehab?

If he had this condition since the May collision why didn't anyone pick up that something was wrong?

Or in other words was this just 'bad luck' and another 'freak injury' to go into the Sox Hall Of The Bizarre and take it's place along side Dick Donovan in 55, Joe Cunningham in 63,Al Lopez in 65, Bill Melton in 72, and everyone on the team in 73.

Lip

A. Cavatica
07-24-2004, 12:51 AM
I am certainly not ready to write off the season. The way the schedule breaks, we're in the driver's seat for both the Central and the wild card. This is the time to double down.

We definitely need another bat, and I hope KW goes after OBP instead of a pure slugger. Left-handedness is a plus.

Beltran would be phenomenal, but I think he's out of our price range. Ditto Helton, Berkman, etc.

Kendall (.394 OBP) would be my first choice, because he fills the hole at catcher too. A Kendall-Mackowiak package would be even better.

A Zaun-Catalanotto package would work too. Ricciardi wouldn't undervalue these guys, though.

There should be good hitters out there in exchange for salary relief. Larry Walker from Colorado. Griffey or Casey from Cincy. Edmonds from Atlanta. Finley or Gonzalez from Arizona. Reed from Seattle.

Boston and the Cubs are desperate to shake things up, but I don't think we match up with them for a big deal. We could probably get Millar or Todd Walker pretty cheaply.

In the bargain bin department, how about Ventura? He's scarcely played this year. He'd be a role player, but a good PR/chemistry move. I'd take a cheap gamble on Olerud or Edgar Martinez, too.

Uncle_Patrick
07-24-2004, 12:54 AM
God, I wish we never traded Sosa.

jeremyb1
07-24-2004, 01:34 AM
I don't think the attendance was relied on as a sure thing, it was relied on as a highly likely thing. It took a pretty unlikely sequence of events for it even to come into question, i.e. significant injuries to 2 of the best hitters in the game.

Well in that case that's why I argued that you shouldn't spend the money on the extension unless 1) you're 100% positive the money will be there or 2) you're confident Garica is going to be the best way of spending that money.

I don't see how you get it with a loss of Maggs and keeping Reed+Olivo next year, even if you sign Garcia - that teams' worse than this team is now, making it less likely that you'd win and get the attendance then, thereby perpetuating the cycle of "good-but-never-great that we've been in).

Well that goes back to my personal belief that if "good but never great" is good enough to consisently make the playoffs it's your best chance of winning a World Series.

I guess my feeling is that given the likely loss of Maggs, I don't see how a team with Maggs AND Garcia only has a 5% greater chance to win a WS than a team with Garcia (or equivalent) and Reed+Olivo. This year's team has a much higher differential over that potential next year team, and that's before you factor in the potential attendance increase and subsequent payroll. And by the way - this team has a much better chance of seeing that happen, even without Maggs & Thomas than we would have had of even maintaining attendance & payroll in the world where we kept Reed+Olivo and still lost Maggs & Thomas.

Well the idea is that with eight teams in the playoffs and short series that clearly don't ensure that the more talented team wins no team no matter how good can have a great shot at winning the World Series. The difference between the best and worst team in the playoffs will rarely be all that large. I believe DaDawg or someone else cited a study that the team with the best shot of winning the World Series never has better than a 20% chance of cashing in. The best way to win the World Series is to make it many times and then eventually you'll have a hot team riding in, get some great pitching performances, or get a few good baseball bounces at win. That's what's happened with Atlanta. Despite all the outstanding teams they've rolled out there they only have one World Series. If they'd advanced fewer times they'd quite likey have none.

I also think that one possibly overlooked piece is that Kenny's tired of a strategy whereby the Sox are always good, but never great. It's not unlikely that looking at the great teams & recent WS champs, that he realizes one major advantage they have is occasional high picks. You take your shot, increase your chance for a year or 2. If you make it, you're golden. If you don't, you end up sucking and in position to draft a stud difference-maker ala Mulder, Zito, Sheets, etc. Those type of cheap stars can make it easier to build a potential WS team, although it'll take a few years to get there.

Well I guess I'd agree that a higher pick will give you better chances to rebuild but it's far from a guarantee. Signability is always a factor unless you have a huge budget. Furthermore, some drafts such as the 2002 draft are considere to be rather weak. Finally even in this day and age, when you draft players and start them in A ball they have a long way to go in terms of development. Some guys just never pan out. You may be right that it's an underrated strategy but I still don't think it's a great one. You still need to have a really awful club and then have the pieces fall in place to land a spectacular pick.

doublem23
07-24-2004, 01:44 AM
Does anyone else get the feeling that they've been reading the same thread every night on WSI for the last month now?

voodoochile
07-24-2004, 01:49 AM
I am certainly not ready to write off the season. The way the schedule breaks, we're in the driver's seat for both the Central and the wild card. This is the time to double down.

We definitely need another bat, and I hope KW goes after OBP instead of a pure slugger. Left-handedness is a plus.

Beltran would be phenomenal, but I think he's out of our price range. Ditto Helton, Berkman, etc.

Kendall (.394 OBP) would be my first choice, because he fills the hole at catcher too. A Kendall-Mackowiak package would be even better.

A Zaun-Catalanotto package would work too. Ricciardi wouldn't undervalue these guys, though.

There should be good hitters out there in exchange for salary relief. Larry Walker from Colorado. Griffey or Casey from Cincy. Edmonds from Atlanta. Finley or Gonzalez from Arizona. Reed from Seattle.

Boston and the Cubs are desperate to shake things up, but I don't think we match up with them for a big deal. We could probably get Millar or Todd Walker pretty cheaply.

In the bargain bin department, how about Ventura? He's scarcely played this year. He'd be a role player, but a good PR/chemistry move. I'd take a cheap gamble on Olerud or Edgar Martinez, too.
If they do anything it will be of the latter variety, IMO. They will move Carl to RF and pick up someone cheap who can occasionally spell Carl or Paulie. Take a chance that at least one of Frank or Maggs makes it back in time to help and if they get them both, that much better as temp DH makes a nice PH to use in the playoffs. If they get them both back, Carl can take the occasional game in CF when the Sox face a really tough RHP - which absolutely never happens in the playoffs, right?

They definitely should find another bullpen arm, of any variety - cheap, inning eater, reliable, whatever - just don't burn out Politte, Marte and Shingo before the end of the year.

voodoochile
07-24-2004, 01:50 AM
Does anyone else get the feeling that they've been reading the same thread every night on WSI for the last month now?
Back to square one. Frank goes, Carl arrives, Maggs goes... Joe comes back?
We need another shoe to drop or something.

hawkjt
07-24-2004, 02:17 AM
Lipman : you covered most of my questions also and I hope Beckett can come thru on the answers. Is this the result of a new bump that occurred when Maggs slid by the sideline trying to catch a fly ball ? If it occurred when Willie and he collided or developed over time after that was a different treatment called for?

Jamieboy
07-24-2004, 02:30 AM
No, it is believed that Magg's knee injury is simply an occurence from his original injury. Magg's is supposed to be out 8 weeks while he rebilitates with swimming and walks on crunches. This really is not as bad as some fans make it out to be. Talking about its the end of the season and such. Listen, we did alright with Maggs out of the lineup. The team is playin much better ball now then it was earlier without Maggs, and the players know they can win. The team really doesn't need the offense to pick up. The team needs the bottom of the rotation to pick it , and some of the other relievers to eat some inningins. I see no reason to go out and make a deal. Rowand is doing fantastic, and Timo and Gload can handle platoon. Not to mention I think this is a very important test as to whether Borchard is up to it in the big leagues. He was 3-19 in his previous stint with the team, and that comes out really to barely 5 games of actual play. Let Borchard get relaxed and see what he can do. He's got big time power, up there with Frank, we just need him to hit .260, .270 for the big league team, and he'll be fine. Losing Magg's is bad, but do remember, the team will stay in contention till late September, and all this means is that Frank and Magg's are due to comeback towards mid to late September. Which is good and bad. Good because the 2 best hitters on the team will be back, bad because it will take them a while to get off the rust.

FarWestChicago
07-24-2004, 02:53 AM
Does anyone else get the feeling that they've been reading the same thread every night on WSI for the last month now?Well, Jeremy posted the same thing 53 times yesterday. That can certainly make one feel they are experiencing deja vu. http://www.flyingsock.com/vbulletin/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

StockdaleForVeep
07-24-2004, 03:58 AM
score was reporting that due to the injury and rehab, he may be done for the season, can we look for him to return in the playoffs?

I would not mind a memorable game 7 world series 9th inning hr by maz as we see our dreams come true and magz limps the bases in joy, pumping his fist....would be nice, id rank that very highly in all time hrs\sports moments.

Frankfan4life
07-24-2004, 12:39 PM
:KW

"I am extremely dissapointed that Magglio Ordonez will be placed on the DL. We were hoping to use him as a decoy, but that's not going to be possible right now." :roflmao: I don't know how something so sad as Maggs being back on the DL could make me laugh, but Sox fans always have a way of finding the humor and irony in everything. Thanks.

Deadguy
07-24-2004, 12:41 PM
He's got big time power, up there with Frank
?


Are we talking about the same guy who has 3 career ML homeruns, one being an inside the parker?

Flight #24
07-24-2004, 01:08 PM
Well in that case that's why I argued that you shouldn't spend the money on the extension unless 1) you're 100% positive the money will be there or 2) you're confident Garica is going to be the best way of spending that money.
Or if you're fairly certain the money will be there. Nothing is 100%. The Sox could win the WS, and a meteor could hit USCF requiring significant renovations and a reduction in payroll to cover some of them. There is such a thing as a good risk to take. This was one of them.



Well that goes back to my personal belief that if "good but never great" is good enough to consisently make the playoffs it's your best chance of winning a World Series.

Well the idea is that with eight teams in the playoffs and short series that clearly don't ensure that the more talented team wins no team no matter how good can have a great shot at winning the World Series. The difference between the best and worst team in the playoffs will rarely be all that large. I believe DaDawg or someone else cited a study that the team with the best shot of winning the World Series never has better than a 20% chance of cashing in. The best way to win the World Series is to make it many times and then eventually you'll have a hot team riding in, get some great pitching performances, or get a few good baseball bounces at win. That's what's happened with Atlanta. Despite all the outstanding teams they've rolled out there they only have one World Series. If they'd advanced fewer times they'd quite likey have none.I don't think that keeping Reed/Olivo actually gave us a good chance at consistently making the playoffs since by the time they'd contribute, we'd have lost Frank, Paulie, Valentin, Maggs, Lee. Pretty hard for Reed+Olivo to make that up, especially if you don't have significant increases in payroll. The team is going to be significantly different in that scenario that it's virtually impossible to say if they're a playoff contender or not. Given what you believe about the Indians, why wouldn't they be a much stronger team, relegating the Sox to 2d place in the division. Better to take a shot now when we'd have as good a chance as anyone else (since the trade was made pre-Frank/Maggs being out for most/all of the year), than hold onto 2 guys who could end up being good, or could end up being below average and even if they're good, the team probably won't be as strong anyway.



Well I guess I'd agree that a higher pick will give you better chances to rebuild but it's far from a guarantee. Signability is always a factor unless you have a huge budget. Furthermore, some drafts such as the 2002 draft are considere to be rather weak. Finally even in this day and age, when you draft players and start them in A ball they have a long way to go in terms of development. Some guys just never pan out. You may be right that it's an underrated strategy but I still don't think it's a great one. You still need to have a really awful club and then have the pieces fall in place to land a spectacular pick.Well, look at the "strong" teams: Oakland (drafted 3 stud pitchers high), Cubs (drafted 2 stud pitchers high), NYY (revenues), BOS (Revenues), Texas (a number of high picks, + Soriano), Phillies (number of high picks, +Thome/Millwood), Marlins (number of high picks, plus some great FA pickups).

It's very rare that a team builds a contender without having either high picks or big revenues. As I've said above, I don't think that the team as it would likely end up when Reed/Olivo were contributors would be likely to be a real contender, so might as well have one that can get you some superstar talent.

Brian26
07-24-2004, 01:40 PM
Keep this in mind-

White Sox baseball is a business first and foremost. Look at the crowds that will be in the park this weekend...sellouts almost every night. Whether or not we end up winning anything doesn't matter to the bottom line. Kenny and JR would love to win a pennant, but keeping us close is just as financially rewarding. Making moves to pick up guys before the deadline not only helps our chances of winning, but it also improves the gate.

beckett21
07-24-2004, 01:58 PM
Now I know where the A.P. got their information. This is from Bill Jauss's story in the Tribune:

"Ordonez's injury was diagnosed Friday as bone marrow edema in his left knee. He was scheduled to start Thursday in Cleveland before extreme pain forced him out of the lineup. He flew to Chicago, where team doctor Charles Bush-Joseph, who performed arthroscopic surgery on Ordonez's knee June 5, examined him.

Bush-Joseph explained edema is "a swelling of the bone itself due to a congestion of blood in the bone. It's very painful. It was probably caused by the original injury, a collision in the outfield (with Willie Harris on May 19 in Cleveland), a traumatic blow to the front of the knee."

Questions for Dr. Beckett: With such a violent collision is it common practice to examine the knee for this condition?

Is this such a rare occurance that it is simply not considered?

During the surgery and subsequent rehab wouldn't the knee give any indications of this edema?

Why suddenly in the last ten days that Maggs has tried to play has this happened? Why not in the month of rehab?

If he had this condition since the May collision why didn't anyone pick up that something was wrong?

Or in other words was this just 'bad luck' and another 'freak injury' to go into the Sox Hall Of The Bizarre and take it's place along side Dick Donovan in 55, Joe Cunningham in 63,Al Lopez in 65, Bill Melton in 72, and everyone on the team in 73.

Lip






Lip,

Thanks for the questions.

Bone marrow edema is pretty much only going to be visible on MRI. It is not something that can be seen through a scope or on a plain x-ray. It is below the surface.

How common is it in the knee, honestly I have no idea. I'm sure it is not one-in-a-million rare, but I cannot offer any statistics as to how often it is diagnosed. I would think that they would pick up on it somewhat with the initial injury, but it is something that may actually get worse over time as a secondary healing response. So you would possibly not see it so much in an acute state; moreso over time as a natural healing response.

We always say *look for horses not zebras.* So if they found an obvious meniscal injury initially, that is something obvious that could have accounted for the pain. There may have been some bony edema there, but to some degree that is to be expected. In an acute injury, all kinds of swelling and inflammation are expected. Again, I don't do knees. In ankles I look for it, but all that is usually done is nonweightbearing and immobilization until it resolves. If the cartilage erodes, then is the time to intervene; usually not before.

Post surgical, as others have said there is going to be a degree of pain which is a normal part of the healing process. So some of this pain could have been attributed to normal postoperative healing. It could take 3-4 months or more to get to where one would feel *100%* , so pain in the knee while playing or rehabbing could be dismissed as normal.

I have little doubt that this was due to the collision; it is an impact injury. How much of this could have been picked up off the bat is questionable to me; and if it were, the only treatment would have been rest, immobilization and time anyway. It is probably not something that would have been addressed surgically. The body needs to resolve it on it's own.

Again thanks for the questions and I'll just remind you to add my usual disclaimer here. :redneck

Lip Man 1
07-24-2004, 02:21 PM
Doc:

Thanks for your time and your input...the check is in the mail! LOL. This is another 'fluke injury'... another little joke by the 'baseball gods,' who keep screwing the Sox over time and time again. When you go 86 years without a title and 44 years without a Series appearance it's more then just 'stupidity.'

and JAMIEBOY...you DO remember that the Sox had a losing record with Maggs out of the lineup for 36 straight games don't you?

Lip

jeremyb1
07-24-2004, 02:23 PM
Or if you're fairly certain the money will be there. Nothing is 100%. The Sox could win the WS, and a meteor could hit USCF requiring significant renovations and a reduction in payroll to cover some of them. There is such a thing as a good risk to take. This was one of them.

Haha. Well I think there's no comparison between those situations. Plus, insurance probably covers natural disasters. I'd like to place my teams chances of success on more than "fairly certain". I mean if we have to tail to resign players we feel are better than Garcia now beause we gambled on "fairly certain" and lost.

I don't think that keeping Reed/Olivo actually gave us a good chance at consistently making the playoffs since by the time they'd contribute, we'd have lost Frank, Paulie, Valentin, Maggs, Lee. Pretty hard for Reed+Olivo to make that up, especially if you don't have significant increases in payroll. The team is going to be significantly different in that scenario that it's virtually impossible to say if they're a playoff contender or not. Given what you believe about the Indians, why wouldn't they be a much stronger team, relegating the Sox to 2d place in the division. Better to take a shot now when we'd have as good a chance as anyone else (since the trade was made pre-Frank/Maggs being out for most/all of the year), than hold onto 2 guys who could end up being good, or could end up being below average and even if they're good, the team probably won't be as strong anyway.

I don't understand. Olivo was already contributing as an above average catcher. We're losing production from him for the rest of the season. Reed's ETA is sometime in '05. Without the 9 million we're paying Garcia we could've kept more of our players around or added solid replacements. That's the huge difference here that I think people are glossing over. If Garcia was in the second year of his contract and still had another season before arbitration and then a few relatively inexpensive contract years, it'd be one thing. However, he's costing us 9 million over the next three seasons where Olivo and Reed will probably cost a couple million combined at the most during any of those three seasons. Therefore they don't have to produce as much as Garcia to be as valuable since they're doing it at a fraction of the cost.

Personally I think we could've competed with the Tribe in the future if we had Buehrle, Garland, Olivo, Reed, Borchard, Crede, Rowand, Rauch, Diaz, Borchard, Anderson, Harris, and Uribe as a young core with some of our better veterans retained and money to burn. Without two of the best four players in that young core and nine million fewer dollars I don't think we have so much of a shot.

Well, look at the "strong" teams: Oakland (drafted 3 stud pitchers high), Cubs (drafted 2 stud pitchers high), NYY (revenues), BOS (Revenues), Texas (a number of high picks, + Soriano), Phillies (number of high picks, +Thome/Millwood), Marlins (number of high picks, plus some great FA pickups).

It's very rare that a team builds a contender without having either high picks or big revenues. As I've said above, I don't think that the team as it would likely end up when Reed/Olivo were contributors would be likely to be a real contender, so might as well have one that can get you some superstar talent.

Well I guess that's your opinion. Reed is considered as well as guys like Texiera and Burrel and Olivo is already an established up and coming catcher so I'm not sure I see the difference. I think there are other examples here such as our club, the Giants, and the Padres have built strong clubs through other means. Futhermore I have to quibble with your examples some. Hudson was drafted in the 3rd or 5th round, Blalock was drafted in the third round, and Burrell is the only key high draft pick on the Phillies. Furthermore clubs like the Tigers, DRays, Royals, Orioles, Pirates, etc. have had a lot of high draft picks and whiffed.

TrollHouseCookie
07-24-2004, 03:06 PM
*osteochondritis dessicans*Spooky! This is my dog's name!

flo-B-flo
07-24-2004, 03:10 PM
Lip,

Thanks for the questions.

Bone marrow edema is pretty much only going to be visible on MRI. It is not something that can be seen through a scope or on a plain x-ray. It is below the surface.

How common is it in the knee, honestly I have no idea. I'm sure it is not one-in-a-million rare, but I cannot offer any statistics as to how often it is diagnosed. I would think that they would pick up on it somewhat with the initial injury, but it is something that may actually get worse over time as a secondary healing response. So you would possibly not see it so much in an acute state; moreso over time as a natural healing response.

We always say *look for horses not zebras.* So if they found an obvious meniscal injury initially, that is something obvious that could have accounted for the pain. There may have been some bony edema there, but to some degree that is to be expected. In an acute injury, all kinds of swelling and inflammation are expected. Again, I don't do knees. In ankles I look for it, but all that is usually done is nonweightbearing and immobilization until it resolves. If the cartilage erodes, then is the time to intervene; usually not before.

Post surgical, as others have said there is going to be a degree of pain which is a normal part of the healing process. So some of this pain could have been attributed to normal postoperative healing. It could take 3-4 months or more to get to where one would feel *100%* , so pain in the knee while playing or rehabbing could be dismissed as normal.

I have little doubt that this was due to the collision; it is an impact injury. How much of this could have been picked up off the bat is questionable to me; and if it were, the only treatment would have been rest, immobilization and time anyway. It is probably not something that would have been addressed surgically. The body needs to resolve it on it's own.

Again thanks for the questions and I'll just remind you to add my usual disclaimer here. :redneck If he would stayed off of it for a couple more weeks after the surgery would it have made a difference?

beckett21
07-24-2004, 03:18 PM
If he would stayed off of it for a couple more weeks after the surgery would it have made a difference?
Hard to predict I'm afraid.

Probably not, but I can't say for sure.

beckett21
07-24-2004, 03:26 PM
Doc:

Thanks for your time and your input...the check is in the mail! LOL. This is another 'fluke injury'...

Lip
Lip,

No problem.

You and others have every right to question the circumstances anytime one of these injuries goes bad. Nothing wrong with being critical. By the same token, I would advise being a little more judicious before condemming the whole medical staff. To your credit you appear to have done that. Fair is fair.

I have no insider info, but I do have some experience to draw from so I am at an advantage in that respect.

Like I said before, there is no such thing as *cookbook medicine* and some things just cannot be anticipated. When things don't respond in the usual and customary way, that is when you start looking for *zebras*. As much as you want to believe medicine should be an *exact science,* variables always come into play.

This is an unfortunate situation for all parties involved. What should be first and foremost of course is Maggs' long term health. If he does miss the rest of the season as a result, while it would be bad for the Sox if that is what it takes so be it. To his credit he tried to come back when needed. Unfortunately, it just was not to be.

Flight #24
07-24-2004, 10:06 PM
I don't understand. Olivo was already contributing as an above average catcher. We're losing production from him for the rest of the season. Reed's ETA is sometime in '05. Without the 9 million we're paying Garcia we could've kept more of our players around or added solid replacements. That's the huge difference here that I think people are glossing over. If Garcia was in the second year of his contract and still had another season before arbitration and then a few relatively inexpensive contract years, it'd be one thing. However, he's costing us 9 million over the next three seasons where Olivo and Reed will probably cost a couple million combined at the most during any of those three seasons. Therefore they don't have to produce as much as Garcia to be as valuable since they're doing it at a fraction of the cost.

Personally I think we could've competed with the Tribe in the future if we had Buehrle, Garland, Olivo, Reed, Borchard, Crede, Rowand, Rauch, Diaz, Borchard, Anderson, Harris, and Uribe as a young core with some of our better veterans retained and money to burn. Without two of the best four players in that young core and nine million fewer dollars I don't think we have so much of a shot.



Well I guess that's your opinion. Reed is considered as well as guys like Texiera and Burrel and Olivo is already an established up and coming catcher so I'm not sure I see the difference. I think there are other examples here such as our club, the Giants, and the Padres have built strong clubs through other means. Futhermore I have to quibble with your examples some. Hudson was drafted in the 3rd or 5th round, Blalock was drafted in the third round, and Burrell is the only key high draft pick on the Phillies. Furthermore clubs like the Tigers, DRays, Royals, Orioles, Pirates, etc. have had a lot of high draft picks and whiffed.
I think we'll have to agree to disagree on some key points and philosophies because we're running around in circles a bit across numerous threads having the same argument. (I feel a bit like Groundhog Day - we keep running into each other in various discussions and doing the same thing. It's a good discussion, and generally well thought out - but I don't think there's any new ground here.)

Bottom line is that:
1) I don't think that Reed is anywhere near the "can't miss" prospect that you do. He's nowhere near Teixeira & Burrell because they combine similar hitting skills with a LOT more power. That makes a huge difference. I also don't believe that his performance necessarily translates to the pros. He's a bigger question mark IMO, so his value is less than you believe it is, and I certainly think any significant contribution is farther out than you do.

2) Olivo still can't hit righties, they're not that pleased with his game calling, and his arm hasn't done a ton the past 2 years (although a lot of that's on the pitchers). He's got a ton of talent and can be an all-star, but right now he's not as good of a catcher as say - Greg Zaun. So again - it's a question of how long you wait and what the team can accomplish when he's ready to make a significant contribution based on the makeup at the time.

3) The Sox as they are currently constructed are going to be forced to significantly change the makeup within 2-3 years (or about when Reed & Olivo would be reaching their talent level). Maggs wants to test the market (the current injury may change that though). Paulie's & Carlos' contracts will be up. Frank & Valentin will have their deals up AND be a lot older. Wholesale changes will be needed. So that raises the importance of winning now.

4) The attendance/payroll issue whereby I think the Sox can do enough to get a significant increase after this year, thereby nullifying most or all of the loss of Reed by being able to sign or resign FAs. Even if we don't make the playoffs because of the injury, any potential decline in attendance and corresponding decline in payroll will be less than it would have been had we had Reed+Olivo but not Garcia.

5) Garcia's value - he's an ace. He's pitched like it in the past, then had 2 years that seem like they were impacted by injuries, and this year, after having it corrected, he's back to true ace status. That's worth a lot, and IMO he'd have gotten bigger offers on the open market. Human nature is such that despite what anyone says about principles, etc - it's a lot easier to turn down potential money than money that's actually on the table. Coming off of the year he is having (or the year he was having in Seattle), he'd be able to command Colon money from either the Yanks or BoSox.

We disagree on all 5 of these, and it's not a factual disagreement, but one of opinion. I don't think further debate on this has much impact on either one of our opinions. I do enjoy debating with you, but unless you think there's something new to discuss or some new aspect of this, I think we'll have to agree to disagree.

jeremyb1
07-25-2004, 01:39 AM
I think we'll have to agree to disagree on some key points and philosophies because we're running around in circles a bit across numerous threads having the same argument. (I feel a bit like Groundhog Day - we keep running into each other in various discussions and doing the same thing. It's a good discussion, and generally well thought out - but I don't think there's any new ground here.)

Bottom line is that:
1) I don't think that Reed is anywhere near the "can't miss" prospect that you do. He's nowhere near Teixeira & Burrell because they combine similar hitting skills with a LOT more power. That makes a huge difference. I also don't believe that his performance necessarily translates to the pros. He's a bigger question mark IMO, so his value is less than you believe it is, and I certainly think any significant contribution is farther out than you do.

Well first of all, Burrell and Teixeira are a corner outfielder and first basemen respectively. Reed has played CF throughout the minors and has not yet been met with a position change as of yet. Reports seem to be that he's at least adequate. Assuming he sticks in center (which I agree is not a given) and plays solid defense he doesn't have to hit on anywhere near the level of Burrell or Teixeria to be just as valuable a player. Remember, Rowand came up as a corner outfielder and while some beg to differ I don't think he ressembles a butcher out there in any way shape or form. Secondly, while Texeira and Burrell did show more power and similar plate discipline but not the same ability to hit for average. Neither player ever hit higher than .333 at any point while Reed has hit .319, .333, and .409. I agree that 250 plate appearances in AA shouldn't be given an unreasonable amount of weight but even if you combine his averages from the two levels last season it still adds up to something like .370. You can't throw out those 250 at bats just because it's convenient for your argument. Again, I'm not arguing he's a better offensive prospect but he has the ability to display better on base skills, he plays a far weaker position, and some guys do develop power later. I'm not saying Reed will hit 40 but he had 4 in 250 at bats in '02, 11, in 500 at bats in '03, and he has 10 in 350 at bats this season. So 20 home runs with a lot of doubles some day isn't out of the question.

As far as a timetable, he's in AAA. It's not as though he has to advance several more levels. If his bat gets hot and he gets called up then while I wouldn't expect it he could be contributing in a few weeks. If his wrist is at all a factor he might make the team out of spring training next season if it improves.

2 through 5 to come later...

voodoochile
07-25-2004, 01:44 AM
2 through 5 to come later...
Oh sweet merciful God, no...

Okay, I can stop reading this thread, the next 15 pages will be Flight 24 and JB1 going around on the plastic extruded horses...

Can't you just hear the calliope?:D:

jabrch
07-25-2004, 02:04 AM
Oh sweet merciful God, no...

Okay, I can stop reading this thread, the next 15 pages will be Flight 24 and JB1 going around on the plastic extruded horses...

Can't you just hear the calliope?:D:
*****

jeremyb1
07-25-2004, 03:29 AM
2) Olivo still can't hit righties, they're not that pleased with his game calling, and his arm hasn't done a ton the past 2 years (although a lot of that's on the pitchers). He's got a ton of talent and can be an all-star, but right now he's not as good of a catcher as say - Greg Zaun. So again - it's a question of how long you wait and what the team can accomplish when he's ready to make a significant contribution based on the makeup at the time.

Well, the average stat line of a catcher in the AL is .272/.329/.427. Despite 126 PAs vs. righties vs. just 50 at bats vs. lefties, Miggy is hitting .274/.324/.506. That means regardless of his current struggles against righties he's already an above average hitting catcher. While I'll admit it's not a gigantic sample size, I think it's hard to argue that he'll ever face more than 2.5 times more righties than lefties during his career. Also at 26 and as a catcher who are often believe to develop late offensively I figure he still has some improvement left in him. At worst he's a significantly above average catcher in my opinion which is quite valuable at such a weak position. I'm not sure he's better than Zaun, but I'd say say he's at least as good since while he lacks the same on base skills, he has much better power.

As far as defense goes, Olivo wasn't particularly strong in terms of preventing base stealing this season with the Sox. However, last season IIRC BP's study of catchers which incorporates both how often catchers throw out runners and how often runners attempt to steal against catchers rated Olivo in the top ten in the majors at preventing steals. I think it's difficult to argue he's not considerably above average defensively. There have also been a number of studies that demonstrate that there isn't a significant relationship between pitchers' performance and the catcher they're throwing to, so I'm extremely hesitant to believe that Olivo's game calling skills were a significant problem.

3) The Sox as they are currently constructed are going to be forced to significantly change the makeup within 2-3 years (or about when Reed & Olivo would be reaching their talent level). Maggs wants to test the market (the current injury may change that though). Paulie's & Carlos' contracts will be up. Frank & Valentin will have their deals up AND be a lot older. Wholesale changes will be needed. So that raises the importance of winning now.

Well I strongly disagree with the notion that Olivo was going to be valuable piece for the team some point in the future since it's been established that he was both above average and far more valuable that our current catching corps. If he gets better in the future he'll be an All-Star. If he maintains his performance he'd be a plus for this season and next season. Make no mistake that while Garcia has improved our rotation a great deal we're significantly worse at catcher for the duration of this season and in the future. That is to say that some of the improvement Garcia has added to the club for the duration of the season is diminished by the loss of Olivo at catcher.

4) The attendance/payroll issue whereby I think the Sox can do enough to get a significant increase after this year, thereby nullifying most or all of the loss of Reed by being able to sign or resign FAs. Even if we don't make the playoffs because of the injury, any potential decline in attendance and corresponding decline in payroll will be less than it would have been had we had Reed+Olivo but not Garcia.

Well the problem I have here is that I find it incredibly difficult to directly link any increase in payroll directly to acquiring Freddy Garcia. Who's to say that our competiveness early in the season alone or adding Ozzie as manager isn't responsible or largely responsible for an increase in attendance. You, yourself have pointed out that attendance was up considerably compared to last season prior to the Garcia deal.

5) Garcia's value - he's an ace. He's pitched like it in the past, then had 2 years that seem like they were impacted by injuries, and this year, after having it corrected, he's back to true ace status. That's worth a lot, and IMO he'd have gotten bigger offers on the open market. Human nature is such that despite what anyone says about principles, etc - it's a lot easier to turn down potential money than money that's actually on the table. Coming off of the year he is having (or the year he was having in Seattle), he'd be able to command Colon money from either the Yanks or BoSox.

Well here's the thing about Garcia's physical condition and why I'm not inclined to place a great deal of weight on it. First of all, posters on this board have previously posted quotes from Garcia and/or the Seattle organization IIRC stating that the injury didn't affect his performance. Secondly, if you look at his stats, he struck out more batters in '02 and '03 than his stronger season in '01. He also walked fewer batters in '02 although not '03. The major difference is that he allowed twice as many home runs in '02 and '03. I'm not inclined to believe his ear condition allowed him to function as well or better in terms of walks and strikeouts but made him extremely vulnerable to the long ball. I agree it's easier to turn down potential money compared to actualy money but I definitely disagree with you on the degree to which that's true. I think you're right that we're at an impasse on that issue.

We disagree on all 5 of these, and it's not a factual disagreement, but one of opinion. I don't think further debate on this has much impact on either one of our opinions. I do enjoy debating with you, but unless you think there's something new to discuss or some new aspect of this, I think we'll have to agree to disagree.

I agree with you it's not a factual disagreement but I think it's more a philosophical disagreement as opposed to simply a disagreement based on opinion although those two are obviously somewhat intertwined. I agree with you though while I find it somewhat enjoyable at some point we are simply at an impasse.

FarWestChicago
07-25-2004, 03:33 AM
Oh sweet merciful God, no...Looks like we didn't get the mercy. http://www.flyingsock.com/vbulletin/images/smilies/thud.gif

Flight #24
07-25-2004, 09:21 AM
Well, the average stat line of a catcher in the AL is .272/.329/.427. Despite 126 PAs vs. righties vs. just 50 at bats vs. lefties, Miggy is hitting .274/.324/.506. That means regardless of his current struggles against righties he's already an above average hitting catcher. While I'll admit it's not a gigantic sample size, I think it's hard to argue that he'll ever face more than 2.5 times more righties than lefties during his career. Also at 26 and as a catcher who are often believe to develop late offensively I figure he still has some improvement left in him. At worst he's a significantly above average catcher in my opinion which is quite valuable at such a weak position. I'm not sure he's better than Zaun, but I'd say say he's at least as good since while he lacks the same on base skills, he has much better power.

As far as defense goes, Olivo wasn't particularly strong in terms of preventing base stealing this season with the Sox. However, last season IIRC BP's study of catchers which incorporates both how often catchers throw out runners and how often runners attempt to steal against catchers rated Olivo in the top ten in the majors at preventing steals. I think it's difficult to argue he's not considerably above average defensively. There have also been a number of studies that demonstrate that there isn't a significant relationship between pitchers' performance and the catcher they're throwing to, so I'm extremely hesitant to believe that Olivo's game calling skills were a significant problem.



Well I strongly disagree with the notion that Olivo was going to be valuable piece for the team some point in the future since it's been established that he was both above average and far more valuable that our current catching corps. If he gets better in the future he'll be an All-Star. If he maintains his performance he'd be a plus for this season and next season. Make no mistake that while Garcia has improved our rotation a great deal we're significantly worse at catcher for the duration of this season and in the future. That is to say that some of the improvement Garcia has added to the club for the duration of the season is diminished by the loss of Olivo at catcher.



Well the problem I have here is that I find it incredibly difficult to directly link any increase in payroll directly to acquiring Freddy Garcia. Who's to say that our competiveness early in the season alone or adding Ozzie as manager isn't responsible or largely responsible for an increase in attendance. You, yourself have pointed out that attendance was up considerably compared to last season prior to the Garcia deal.



Well here's the thing about Garcia's physical condition and why I'm not inclined to place a great deal of weight on it. First of all, posters on this board have previously posted quotes from Garcia and/or the Seattle organization IIRC stating that the injury didn't affect his performance. Secondly, if you look at his stats, he struck out more batters in '02 and '03 than his stronger season in '01. He also walked fewer batters in '02 although not '03. The major difference is that he allowed twice as many home runs in '02 and '03. I'm not inclined to believe his ear condition allowed him to function as well or better in terms of walks and strikeouts but made him extremely vulnerable to the long ball. I agree it's easier to turn down potential money compared to actualy money but I definitely disagree with you on the degree to which that's true. I think you're right that we're at an impasse on that issue.



I agree with you it's not a factual disagreement but I think it's more a philosophical disagreement as opposed to simply a disagreement based on opinion although those two are obviously somewhat intertwined. I agree with you though while I find it somewhat enjoyable at some point we are simply at an impasse.

Uncle.

Lip Man 1
07-25-2004, 02:00 PM
Leaving the 'fascinating' world of statistical mumbo jumbo behind, I have another question for the good Dr. Beckett. Personally I can't believe that I missed asking it, since it is an important question.

How in the world does blood get INSIDE of a dense mass like a bone? Even with the hollow part for the marrow, a bone is basically, a solid, tough object.

Can water, blood, fluids, penetrate the bone through osmosis? (See watching Mr. Wizard all those years has paid off!!!) or was their a crack in the bone allowing the material to get inside?

Just curious.

Lip

beckett21
07-25-2004, 05:12 PM
Leaving the 'fascinating' world of statistical mumbo jumbo behind, I have another question for the good Dr. Beckett. Personally I can't believe that I missed asking it, since it is an important question.

How in the world does blood get INSIDE of a dense mass like a bone? Even with the hollow part for the marrow, a bone is basically, a solid, tough object.

Can water, blood, fluids, penetrate the bone through osmosis? (See watching Mr. Wizard all those years has paid off!!!) or was their a crack in the bone allowing the material to get inside?

Just curious.

LipThere are two general types of bone.

Cortical bone is the dense bone you are talking about. It is the rigid outer layer of the bone, and primarily makes up the shaft of long bones.

Cancellous bone is a more spongy type of bone that is seen beneath the outer layer of bone or beneath the cartilage. It is softer and harbors a rich blood supply that helps to nourish the bone. This is the type of bone where you would typically see this type of edema or congestion. The cells are not as densely packed together as cortical bone, allowing room for fluid/inflammation to accumulate. It is found near the ends of long bones (like the tibia/femur at the knee joint) in what is called the metaphysis of the bone.

In long bones like the tibia (leg bone) and femur (thigh bone) the shaft of the bone is primarily composed of cortical bone, while the ends of the bones contain cancellous bone which lies beneath the cartilage. Some bones, like the heel bone (calcaneus) are composed primarily of cancellous bone which is better at absorbing shock.

In this case, the impact of the bones would have caused trauma to this cancellous bone, which had to absorb the shock of the impact. Bleeding within the bone would be the result, which is what is being referred to as bone marrow edema. I'm using the terminology loosely, but this is basically what is going on as I would understand it.

Hope that answers your question.

Flight #24
07-25-2004, 05:17 PM
There are two general types of bone.

Cortical bone is the dense bone you are talking about. It is the rigid outer layer of the bone, and primarily makes up the shaft of long bones.

Cancellous bone is a more spongy type of bone that is seen beneath the outer layer of bone or beneath the cartilage. It is softer and harbors a rich blood supply that helps to nourish the bone. This is the type of bone where you would typically see this type of edema or congestion. The cells are not as densely packed together as cortical bone, allowing room for fluid/inflammation to accumulate. It is found near the ends of long bones (like the tibia/femur at the knee joint) in what is called the metaphysis of the bone.

In long bones like the tibia (leg bone) and femur (thigh bone) the shaft of the bone is primarily composed of cortical bone, while the ends of the bones contain cancellous bone which lies beneath the cartilage. Some bones, like the heel bone (calcaneus) are composed primarily of cancellous bone which is better at absorbing shock.

In this case, the impact of the bones would have caused trauma to this cancellous bone, which had to absorb the shock of the impact. Bleeding within the bone would be the result, which is what is being referred to as bone marrow edema. I'm using the terminology loosely, but this is basically what is going on as I would understand it.

Hope that answers your question.U
Da
Man.

Nick@Nite
07-26-2004, 11:00 PM
Spooky! This is my dog's name!
:troll