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View Full Version : Sidebar to Maggs DL II Thread: What would we have to give up to get Carlos Beltrán?


Viva Magglio
07-23-2004, 05:23 PM
Right now, getting Carlos Beltrán would be the best way to offset Mágglio's absence? However, we all know it would cost us dearly. We would have to give a lot away for CB, and CB is a free agent after the year.

Dadawg_77
07-23-2004, 05:24 PM
Right now, getting Carlos Beltrán would be the best way to offset Mágglio's absence? However, we all know it would cost us dearly. We would have to give a lot away for CB, and CB is a free agent after the year.
Prospects and few of them.

LASOXFAN
07-23-2004, 05:27 PM
Prospects and few of them.
I think he's going to come at a steeper price than that, someone on the club right now.

OzzieBall2004
07-23-2004, 05:28 PM
Its not a guarantee Beltran will be dealt. Houstons won a few games lately, and our good friend Peter Gammons said they wont be dealing him if they keep it up.

Baby Fisk
07-23-2004, 05:33 PM
What would Billy Beane do??? :unsure:


BTW -- OzzieBall2004, I love that sig! :cool:

greenpeach
07-23-2004, 05:37 PM
Right now, getting Carlos Beltrán would be the best way to offset Mágglio's absence? However, we all know it would cost us dearly. We would have to give a lot away for CB, and CB is a free agent after the year.
Maybe we can deal a couple of top prospects to the Yankees for Ruben Sierra. The Yankees could then in turn trade those prospects to Arizona for Randy Johnson. Everbody wins !!!!!

hold2dibber
07-23-2004, 06:02 PM
I'm thinking Brett Boone. He's in the last year of his deal (team option for $9 million or $1 million buy out for '05) and the Mariners are in re-build mode. He's been hitting the ball a lot better lately (.929 OPS in July) and the move from Safeco to the Cell would probably mean a serious improvement for him. His salary this year is $8 million, so he's probably still got about $3.5 mm to be paid, plus the $1 mm buy out at the end of the year. Not sure what it would take to get him, but if they could get him, the line-up until Frank and Maggs get back would probably look like:

Harris CF
Boone 2B
Lee LF
Konerko 1B
Everett DH
Valentin SS
Rowand RF
Crede 3B
Alomar/Burke/Davis C

Which actually is a pretty good line-up.

Cowch44
07-23-2004, 06:04 PM
Harris CF
Boone 2B
Lee LF
Konerko 1B
Everett DH
Valentin SS
Rowand RF
Crede 3B
Alomar/Burke/Davis C

Which actually is a pretty good line-up.
...and uribe?

Voice of Reason
07-23-2004, 06:07 PM
I'm guessing Beltran would cost something like Reed, Olivo and maybe someone like Mike Morse as a throw in.

Oh wait...

Baby Fisk
07-23-2004, 06:10 PM
I'm guessing Beltran would cost something like Reed, Olivo and maybe someone like Mike Morse as a throw in.

Oh wait...
:hawk
"I luv gallows humor!"

Win1ForMe
07-23-2004, 06:11 PM
I'm thinking Brett Boone. He's in the last year of his deal (team option for $9 million or $1 million buy out for '05) and the Mariners are in re-build mode. He's been hitting the ball a lot better lately (.929 OPS in July) and the move from Safeco to the Cell would probably mean a serious improvement for him. His salary this year is $8 million, so he's probably still got about $3.5 mm to be paid, plus the $1 mm buy out at the end of the year.
Bret Boone has a $9M option that vests automatically after 450 PA. Not sure if we're willing to pay that.

I do think he'll have a nice 2nd half though, similar to 2002 (.336/.384/.546) after having a terrible first half (.256/.309/.384).

Win1ForMe
07-23-2004, 06:13 PM
I'm guessing Beltran would cost something like Reed, Olivo and maybe someone like Mike Morse as a throw in.

Oh wait...
No way. KC got a good 3B prospect and a decent C prospect. Borchard/Diaz? Borchard/Cotts?

DickAllen72
07-23-2004, 06:14 PM
I'm thinking Brett Boone. He's in the last year of his deal (team option for $9 million or $1 million buy out for '05) and the Mariners are in re-build mode. He's been hitting the ball a lot better lately (.929 OPS in July) and the move from Safeco to the Cell would probably mean a serious improvement for him. His salary this year is $8 million, so he's probably still got about $3.5 mm to be paid, plus the $1 mm buy out at the end of the year. Not sure what it would take to get him, but if they could get him, the line-up until Frank and Maggs get back would probably look like:

Harris CF
Boone 2B
Lee LF
Konerko 1B
Everett DH
Valentin SS
Rowand RF
Crede 3B
Alomar/Burke/Davis C

Which actually is a pretty good line-up.


Harris is a second baseman. Bring back Kenny Lofton! We can probably get him cheap, and we can probably get him now.

Lofton leads off in center. Rowand bats second in right field.

Lofton brings us a left handed leadoff man with good speed and good defense in CF. And I don't want to hear any of that "clubhouse cancer" BS from anybody either. He wasn't a negative with the sCrubs, the Yankees or anyone else that I've heard.

jabrch
07-23-2004, 06:15 PM
No way. KC got a good 3B prospect and a decent C prospect. Borchard/Diaz? Borchard/Cotts?
Ensberg (who they soured on) and Beltran for Crede, Borchard and Diaz/Cotts?

jabrch
07-23-2004, 06:15 PM
And I don't want to hear any of that "clubhouse cancer" BS from anybody either. He wasn't a negative with the sCrubs, the Yankees or anyone else that I've heard.
He got in fights with Sammy - but I am not sure if that is good or bad.

Kogs35
07-23-2004, 06:19 PM
Harris is a second baseman. Bring back Kenny Lofton! We can probably get him cheap, and we can probably get him now.

Lofton leads off in center. Rowand bats second in right field.

Lofton brings us a left handed leadoff man with good speed and good defense in CF. And I don't want to hear any of that "clubhouse cancer" BS from anybody either. He wasn't a negative with the sCrubs, the Yankees or anyone else that I've heard.
lofton has a 2 year deal with the yanks. myrlon bryd though from phills needs a change of scenery

jabrch
07-23-2004, 06:21 PM
lofton has a 2 year deal with the yanks. myrlon bryd though from phills needs a change of scenery

Byrd is hitting .246 in AAA. I'll pass. We can get better production out of Borchard.

South Side
07-23-2004, 06:22 PM
Ensberg (who they soured on) and Beltran for Crede, Borchard and Diaz/Cotts?
DO IT!

South Side
07-23-2004, 06:23 PM
He got in fights with Sammy - but I am not sure if that is good or bad.

Well, that just shows he belongs here.

JRIG
07-23-2004, 06:46 PM
No way. KC got a good 3B prospect and a decent C prospect. Borchard/Diaz? Borchard/Cotts?
They also got a good pitching prospect too in Mike Wood, who is already pitching in the majors. It was Wood, Buck, and Teahen.

kojak
07-23-2004, 11:11 PM
Let's give Houston Magglio Ordonez and Mike Sirotka!


Hey, it worked once before! :tongue:

mmmmmbeeer
07-23-2004, 11:20 PM
If we can believe everything we've heard then we know that KW was given permission to go out and spend some loot. He really hasn't spent anything being I know he got cash back in the Jurassic deal and Freddy came reasonably cheap (in financial terms).

I truly believe that there's going to be a big time player in a White Sox uni by the deadline. Big name, big money guys out there include Beltran, Unit, Kendall, Walker (could swear I heard something earlier this season about Helton being available), Delgado, Tejada/Lopez(?), Urbina,and probably a couple more I'm missing. KW and JR apparently had a deal, an agreement, that this year presented an outstanding opportunity to go for the gold. Now the only holdup would be if KW or JR feel that the injuries to Maggs and Frank negate that chance at the series. Do they both feel it's still worth the shot financially and talent-wise (minor leaguers) to go for it all?

benjamin
07-23-2004, 11:42 PM
Harris is a second baseman. Bring back Kenny Lofton! We can probably get him cheap, and we can probably get him now.

Lofton leads off in center. Rowand bats second in right field.

Lofton brings us a left handed leadoff man with good speed and good defense in CF. And I don't want to hear any of that "clubhouse cancer" BS from anybody either. He wasn't a negative with the sCrubs, the Yankees or anyone else that I've heard.
You weren't listening to the right people then...

benjamin
07-23-2004, 11:46 PM
I'm thinking Brett Boone. He's in the last year of his deal (team option for $9 million or $1 million buy out for '05) and the Mariners are in re-build mode. He's been hitting the ball a lot better lately (.929 OPS in July) and the move from Safeco to the Cell would probably mean a serious improvement for him. His salary this year is $8 million, so he's probably still got about $3.5 mm to be paid, plus the $1 mm buy out at the end of the year. Not sure what it would take to get him, but if they could get him, the line-up until Frank and Maggs get back would probably look like:

Harris CF
Boone 2B
Lee LF
Konerko 1B
Everett DH
Valentin SS
Rowand RF
Crede 3B
Alomar/Burke/Davis C

Which actually is a pretty good line-up.

Problem with Boone is that once he hits 450 Plate Appearances in 2004, the $9mil salary in 2005 becomes guaranteed. He's at 368 PAs right now. So the $1mil buyout wouldn't be an option.

Win1ForMe
07-23-2004, 11:55 PM
They also got a good pitching prospect too in Mike Wood, who is already pitching in the majors. It was Wood, Buck, and Teahen.Mike Wood is not a good pitching prospect, at least according to this column by Jayson Stark. Buck doesn't seem like a very good prospect either; Rauch-like value.
Teahen will be the guy who determines whether Baird succeeded or failed. And from all accounts, he has a chance to be a star. But he's not a finished product yet. But Baird will send George Brett to work with him at Triple-A Omaha on smoothing out his swing.
He has excellent plate discipline and terrific defensive instincts. And after watching him, Baird came away convinced "he's the real deal."
....


Buck, meanwhile, was once regarded as one of the best catching prospects in baseball. His star has fallen in the last year, but he will catch in the big leagues. And if Tony Pena can't iron out his release issues, nobody can.

Buck's build (6-foot-3, 210) reminds scouts of a young Carlton Fisk. His game, however, is a little short of that, though he will hit some home runs. And if he quickens his release, he will throw out some runners. And again, given Baird's options, he could have done worse.

The third player the Royals got, 24-year-old right-hander Mike Wood (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=7216), is going to be a useful back-of-the-rotation, middle-relief type guy. For now, the Royals will plug him right into the rotation as their No. 5 starter. Eventually, he'll probably be a ground-ball specialist out of their bullpen.

hold2dibber
07-24-2004, 12:07 AM
Problem with Boone is that once he hits 450 Plate Appearances in 2004, the $9mil salary in 2005 becomes guaranteed. He's at 368 PAs right now. So the $1mil buyout wouldn't be an option.
Oh ... nevermind. :cool: I sure as hell wouldn't want the Sox on the hook for Boone to the tune of $9 million next year. There goes that idea.

OEO Magglio
07-24-2004, 12:15 AM
Harris is a second baseman. Bring back Kenny Lofton! We can probably get him cheap, and we can probably get him now.

Lofton leads off in center. Rowand bats second in right field.

Lofton brings us a left handed leadoff man with good speed and good defense in CF. And I don't want to hear any of that "clubhouse cancer" BS from anybody either. He wasn't a negative with the sCrubs, the Yankees or anyone else that I've heard.No kenny lofton. And Rowand better be batting 2nd until this hot streak winds down, he's on base almost everytime and Jose isn't a two hitter, he should be down in the lineup, so I'm hoping once we face some righties willie will be leading off and arow will be batting 2nd.

doublem23
07-24-2004, 12:35 AM
Borchard and Cotts/Diaz for Beltran? You guys must have had a few too many at the park tonight. :rolleyes:

Aidan
07-24-2004, 12:37 AM
Borchard and Cotts/Diaz for Beltran? You guys must have had a few too many at the park tonight. :rolleyes:Are you saying that Borchard and Cotts/Diaz is too much for Beltran or too little?

South Side
07-24-2004, 12:39 AM
Are you saying that Borchard and Cotts/Diaz is too much for Beltran or too little?I'm going to go with, too little.

doublem23
07-24-2004, 12:47 AM
Are you saying that Borchard and Cotts/Diaz is too much for Beltran or too little?
too little

Win1ForMe
07-24-2004, 01:02 AM
Borchard and Cotts/Diaz for Beltran? You guys must have had a few too many at the park tonight. :rolleyes:
Cotts is a potential #2 starter (according to John Sickels), so he obviously has much more value than a middle reliever (ala Mike Wood). Borchard still has a very high upside, certainly higher than John Buck. Plus the Royals made this trade in June, not July. I don't understand where you're coming from thinking this is a ridiculous offer?

Aidan
07-24-2004, 01:13 AM
too littleI don't think Borchard and Cotts or Diaz is too little by any means. You have to remember that Borchard is still considered a top prospect and Cotts is projected to be a pretty good starting pitcher by most scouts. Also, we would only be getting Carlos Beltran for a 2 month rental. The Astros can't expect to get as much for Beltran as the Royals did because the team trading for Beltran wouldn't be getting him for as long as they did.

doublem23
07-24-2004, 01:17 AM
I guess you guys haven't been listening closely enough, but that faint smashing sound in the background the last few years has been Borchard's stock crashing. After being one of the premier prospects in baseball a few years ago he has regressed heavily.

Cotts? A #2 starter? Don't hold your breath.

****, if Williams can land Carlos Beltran for Borchard, Diaz, and Cotts, I'd be floored. GM of the Year.

doublem23
07-24-2004, 01:20 AM
Astros can't expect to get as much for Beltran as the Royals did because the team trading for Beltran wouldn't be getting him for as long as they did.
Then what's the point of even trading him? There's a week left until the trading deadline, the 'Stros (a consensus Top 5 team in baseball in March) are only 6 games out of the wild card. If the Astros aren't going to make profit on Beltran, I don't even know why they bother moving him and just get the draft picks instead.

Win1ForMe
07-24-2004, 01:21 AM
I guess you guys haven't been listening closely enough, but that faint smashing sound in the background the last few years has been Borchard's stock crashing. After being one of the premier prospects in baseball a few years ago he has regressed heavily.

Cotts? A #2 starter? Don't hold your breath.

****, if Williams can land Carlos Beltran for Borchard, Diaz, and Cotts, I'd be floored. GM of the Year.
Well, thanks for ignoring all sensible evidence. Nice talking to you.

doublem23
07-24-2004, 01:29 AM
Well, thanks for ignoring all sensible evidence. Nice talking to you.LOL, what even constitutes sensible evidence? Have you even looked at Borchard's numbers the last few years in AAA? Not so good my friend, and Charlotte is a bandbox. A power hitter's haven.

And Cotts? Have you watched him pitch? I'm not saying he won't be a solid pitcher, but h'e clearly not ready to be a big man in a good rotation. Maybe we can trick a FOBB to take him on account of his high Strikeouts-per-daily calorie intake divided by the inverse of percentage of body fat stat. :rolleyes:

Aidan
07-24-2004, 01:31 AM
Then what's the point of even trading him? There's a week left until the trading deadline, the 'Stros (a consensus Top 5 team in baseball in March) are only 6 games out of the wild card. If the Astros aren't going to make profit on Beltran, I don't even know why they bother moving him and just get the draft picks instead.Because Borchard and Cotts are closer to MLB ready than prospects would be. Last time I checked, Houston is horribly old and will have a lot of holes to fill NEXT SEASON. Bagwell and Biggio are both old and injury-prone, Jeff Kent is probably on his way out, their rotation has been shaky, and so has their bullpen. Prospects can't fill those holes while MLB ready talent can.

Win1ForMe
07-24-2004, 01:48 AM
LOL, what even constitutes sensible evidence? Have you even looked at Borchard's numbers the last few years in AAA? Not so good my friend, and Charlotte is a bandbox. A power hitter's haven.I thought he had wrist issues? I thought he was having a solid 2004?

And Cotts? Have you watched him pitch? I'm not saying he won't be a solid pitcher, but h'e clearly not ready to be a big man in a good rotation. Maybe we can trick a FOBB to take him on account of his high Strikeouts-per-daily calorie intake divided by the inverse of percentage of body fat stat. Sensible evidence= scouts opinion & minor league performance.

(Not sensible evidence) Judging a pitcher on 32 IP in his ROOKIE SEASON (!!!) is, to put it bluntly, incredibly stupid. And of course he's not ready to be "a big man," he's in his first full season!!

Here's what certain pitchers did in their rookie seasons: Mark Mulder - 5.44 ERA/154 IP, Javier Vazquez - 6.06 ERA/172 IP, Santana a 6.49 ERA/86 IP.

Besides compare them to what KC received in the deal:
Cotts >>>> Mike Wood
Borchard > John Buck.

EDIT: I also liked you using Borchard's AAA numbers as evidence to support your point and completely ignoring Cotts' minor league performance. Good stuff. :rolleyes:

doublem23
07-24-2004, 01:57 AM
EDIT: I also liked you using Borchard's AAA numbers as evidence to support your point and completely ignoring Cotts' minor league performance. Good stuff. :rolleyes:
So you want me to mention the fact that he averaged about a walk every two innings in AA lasy year? :smile:

JRIG
07-24-2004, 02:14 AM
Mike Wood is not a good pitching prospect, at least according to this column by Jayson Stark. Buck doesn't seem like a very good prospect either; Rauch-like value.
Not trying to imply I know more than Stark, but I do like Wood as a 3/4 starter. I think he certainly has more talent than just a bullpen guy.

And, with usual small sample size caveats, he's been pretty good so far at the major league level -- 4.45 ERA, 8BB/16K in 27 IP. He's probably pretty similar to Rauch in value, maybe a touch higher.

copyhead
07-24-2004, 04:42 AM
i hate to rain on your parade guys, but doublem is pretty much dead on in his assessment of this trade idea

from an outsiders viewpoint, i can say that both Borchard and Cotts aren't as highly regarded outside of your organisation as some of you might think they are, and are certainly NOT going to land you one of the top players in the game today

you can convince yourselves of the contrary all you want, but it's simply not going to happen for that package

sorry

Aidan
07-24-2004, 04:58 AM
i hate to rain on your parade guys, but doublem is pretty much dead on in his assessment of this trade idea

from an outsiders viewpoint, i can say that both Borchard and Cotts aren't as highly regarded outside of your organisation as some of you might think they are, and are certainly NOT going to land you one of the top players in the game today

you can convince yourselves of the contrary all you want, but it's simply not going to happen for that package

sorryAnd who is to say that your "assessment" is any better than anyone else's here?

You people aren't realizing that whatever team that trades for Beltran right before the deadline is not going to get the same value out of him since they won't be getting him for as long as Houston had him. Beltran will only be a 2 month rental by July 31st. Houston has had Beltran since June 24th so they would have been able to get 3 months of performance out of him instead of only 2. His trade value has to go down a bit because of this. Not to mention the fact that he is virtually unsignable for next season.

copyhead
07-24-2004, 05:54 AM
i'd say the possibility to add a Beltran for a stretch run + October would be of immense value for any team

you don't reckon the Astros realize that too?

Aidan
07-24-2004, 06:07 AM
i'd say the possibility to add a Beltran for a stretch run + October would be of immense value for any team

you don't reckon the Astros realize that too?Yeah, but there aren't too many teams that have the prospects to trade for him...

Boston - No.
Yankees - No.
Padres - Yes.
White Sox - Yes.

bigfoot
07-24-2004, 08:37 AM
Because Borchard and Cotts are closer to MLB ready than prospects would be. Last time I checked, Houston is horribly old and will have a lot of holes to fill NEXT SEASON. Bagwell and Biggio are both old and injury-prone, Jeff Kent is probably on his way out, their rotation has been shaky, and so has their bullpen. Prospects can't fill those holes while MLB ready talent can.
You seem to know what the Astro need, but fail to provide them with solution to their problem. Why would they want a middle reliever, starting pitcher and a maybe OF, when they will desperately need 2B, 1B, closer?

Aidan
07-24-2004, 09:31 AM
You seem to know what the Astro need, but fail to provide them with solution to their problem. Why would they want a middle reliever, starting pitcher and a maybe OF, when they will desperately need 2B, 1B, closer?Once they trade Beltran, they will have Berkman, Biggio, and Jason Lane as their outfielders. Berkman and Lane are both corner outfielders and Biggio, who is normally a 2nd baseman, played center field before they traded for Beltran. Biggio is 38 years old and a free agent after this season. Even if they resign him, he IS NOT a good choice for CF. They could stick Borchard in CF and start to get younger. Jeff Kent will probably be gone to free agency, so if they resign Biggio for another year they can stick him back at 2B. With Clemens possible retiring, the Astros will need another starting pitcher. Cotts could fill this role or even be stuck in the bullpen for that matter.

You don't seem to know what the Astros need. They have one of the top 2nd baseman prospects in the minors, Chris Burke. This is one of the reasons they may elect to let Biggio go. Lidge is their closer now as well, as he was being groomed to be. Mike Lamb can play 1B, 3B, and corner OF. He will probably replace Bagwell at 1B though. They do need middle relief help though.