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View Full Version : What if Frank isn't Frank next year?


cheeses_h_rice
09-28-2001, 08:41 AM
Given his age, it is a mild possibility that the Frank Thomas who joins the Sox 25-man roster in May or so will not be the Frank Thomas of 2000, let alone 1993.

What is the minimum output we need from Frank for this team to contend next year? I'll go on record and say we need him, at minimum, to hit .300 with at least 30 homers and 105 RBIs. We've shown we can do OK without him, but his input is essential if we are to get over that hump.

Joel Perez
09-28-2001, 12:02 PM
Anything below the Big "3"s would be a disappointment.

.300 BA
30 HRs
90 RBI's (hey, it's divisible by 3!)

34 Inch Stick
09-28-2001, 12:08 PM
Frank can do that in his sleep. His worst years were around 90 rbi and the homers will be there.

RichieRichAllen
09-28-2001, 12:28 PM
My only hope is that he gets off to a damn good start. Then we should unload him. I love the offensive tangibles Frank brings us, but other than that, what do you have?

He's more concerned about his stats than showing any real leadership around the clubhouse. At a (reasonably) young age, he decries having to play in the field. And quite "frankly", (this is just an observation), I got the feeling he was damn happy to have most of the year off from playing baseball. Of course, if my Dad died, I might have a different perspective on things too.......

I think D. Wells might have seen something that others in the clubhouse have known about Frank, but have been less candid in stating it.......there isn't much passion in the guy to win.

Here's hoping he's at .300 w/45 RBI and 15 HR's at All-Star Break. Then, let's bring in someone who can deliver a title.

PaleHoseGeorge
09-28-2001, 12:42 PM
Originally posted by RichieRichAllen
My only hope is that he gets off to a damn good start. Then we should unload him. I love the offensive tangibles Frank brings us, but other than that, what do you have?

Three little words: ON-BASE PERCENTAGE.

This is what separates Frank from every other power hitter. Anybody who watched Magglio, Carlos, and Konehead hacking and slashing at the plate this year knows we missed A LOT with Frank injured.

Given how the young arms made up for the loss of our veteran starters, I would say the loss of Frank Thomas was the single-biggest reason the '01 Sox will finish 10 games worst than the '00 division-winning team.

cheeses_h_rice
09-28-2001, 12:46 PM
I agree, PHG.

Sure, Frank is a stat rat, and a selfish one at that. But those impressive stats can blow away everyone else on the team, especially our underachieving .272-hitting "power hitters."

We need Frank, and I think this year only proved that even more.

RichieRichAllen
09-28-2001, 12:48 PM
Good point, but you didn't address the other issues I posted.

Plus...(yeah, I'm idealistic to a degree), shouldn't the manager and his staff be teaching and reinforcing patience with his young hitters? If not, what the hell is he/they there for in the first place?

Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge


Three little words: ON-BASE PERCENTAGE.

This is what separates Frank from every other power hitter. Anybody who watched Magglio, Carlos, and Konehead hacking and slashing at the plate this year knows we missed A LOT with Frank injured.

Given how the young arms made up for the loss of our veteran starters, I would say the loss of Frank Thomas was the single-biggest reason the '01 Sox will finish 10 games worst than the '00 division-winning team.

PaleHoseGeorge
09-28-2001, 12:55 PM
Originally posted by RichieRichAllen
Good point, but you didn't address the other issues I posted.

Plus...(yeah, I'm idealistic to a degree), shouldn't the manager and his staff be teaching and reinforcing patience with his young hitters? If not, what the hell is he/they there for in the first place?




Well sure, the coaches are suppose to help all the players improve their skills. Lee, Maggs, and Konehead are a LONG WAY from being the best players they could be. Unfortunately, not everyone is talented enough to hit major league pitching and still see pitches out of the zone early enough to take a ball. If it was strictly a question of coaching, everyone would be a .300 hitter.

My all-time favorite example is Shammy. Hrniak wanted So-so to make contact while the egomaniac kept swinging and striking out from the heels. Next thing you know the Sox are winning two division crowns while the Cubs elevate Sam-me-me-me to The Greatest Ballplayer on Earth, Ever.

Frank is huge in our line up. He works cheap, too.

:)

RichieRichAllen
09-28-2001, 01:11 PM
I'll agree to disagree on this one, PHG. I think you're right. Thomas is a huge offensive threat in the line up. And if he didn't work for cheap, I doubt we'd be disagreeing to much degree.

I guess what I'm looking for is a big gun like Thomas with the leadership skills and desire to take us there. He doesn't even have to have the Thomasonian stats. Give me someone with a decent OB% who will ride/chide/coach some of the other talent (ie, Lee, Maggs, Konehead) into getting on base a little more, sacrificing an AB once in a while and work for victories instead of stats and I'd be happy to see Frank in another uniform.

Frank had a huge supporting staff in '00 which made him look good. What about the two previous years? Aberrations? Doubtful from this POV.

Sorry, but I see talent in Big Frank.....just a lack of passion, desire and leadership. And I'm afraid you can't put these on the board.

Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge



Well sure, the coaches are suppose to help all the players improve their skills. Lee, Maggs, and Konehead are a LONG WAY from being the best players they could be. Unfortunately, not everyone is talented enough to hit major league pitching and still see pitches out of the zone early enough to take a ball. If it was strictly a question of coaching, everyone would be a .300 hitter.

My all-time favorite example is Shammy. Hrniak wanted So-so to make contact while the egomaniac kept swinging and striking out from the heels. Next thing you know the Sox are winning two division crowns while the Cubs elevate Sam-me-me-me to The Greatest Ballplayer on Earth, Ever.

Frank is huge in our line up. He works cheap, too.

:)

Soxboyrob
09-28-2001, 02:08 PM
Originally posted by RichieRichAllen

Sorry, but I see talent in Big Frank.....just a lack of passion, desire and leadership. And I'm afraid you can't put these on the board.



I couldn't agree w/ you more RRA. You can't help but to love what Frank brings to the offensive table, but at what cost?

He's been virtually absent from the team since the "injury." What kind of example of leadership, cameraderie, teamsmanship(made that word up) has he shown? It's easy to excuse a guy like Valentin for his on-field screwups, because Valentin is a warhorse. What is Frank? I'm not sure, but he's done everything is his power to make us "think" he's selfish, ego-driven, and not concerned w/ winning. I hope I'm wrong about all of those assumptions. I'll settle for what he brings to the table, much the same way I settled for what Rodman brought to the '96-'98 Bulls.....But I'll feel very dirty in doing it.

Iguana775
09-28-2001, 02:10 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge


Three little words: ON-BASE PERCENTAGE.


technically, isnt on-base one word with the hyphen??? lol. :):)

Soxboyrob
09-28-2001, 02:17 PM
Just to expound upon my last point...

Frank has said and done a lot of things that have been seen as an embarrassment to the Sox.
ie...
Salary demand crap in spring training

Batting practice debacle 3 years ago.

ongoing berating of umpires strike/ball calls during the season of '99

just generally having his foot implanted in his mouth.

All I know is this guy seems to find ways to make people laugh and cringe at his behavior instead of marveling at his offensive ability. If he can't turn this trend around, I'm just about willing to do without his bat. This franchise gets made fun of enough already and is sadly in need of more leadership.

Randar68
09-28-2001, 03:37 PM
All I know is this guy seems to find ways to make people laugh and cringe at his behavior instead of marveling at his offensive ability. If he can't turn this trend around, I'm just about willing to do without his bat. This franchise gets made fun of enough already and is sadly in need of more leadership.

Frankly, I vehemently disagree with you. Frank has been himself, honest, and not always well thought out in what he says. If you want an actor who never tells you how he feels or is protected by his PR department anytime he sticks his foot in his mouth/fails to take responsibility for his words, there's a cuddly-wobbly fool on the North Side on the 'Roids. Frank is one of the nicest people you could ever meet in person or in public, and it's not a show. When a person gets divorced and forced to pay in the millions for alimony and child support, and performing under the threat of being reduced to a yearly salary of the veteran minimum with only deferred money, the man has a point. You saw exactly what the media in this city wanted you to see. As usual, nobody came out to defend the guy for wanting to be secure after going through a major life change, but you want to roast the guy.

Ray, JB, Konerko, etc have all come out and publicly said how much Frank's presense was missed in the locker room. In addition to that, do you think the slumps we've seen out of Ray and Carlos in particular and to a lesser extent Maggs had anything to do with Frank missing.

I could give a flying fu*K what your take is on Frank's persona or the media's portrayal of him as a person. You don't know the guy and you do not sit in the locker room during losing streaks or after last year's playoffs, so how in the world are you to judge his effect there?

He, along with the rest of our team did not perform well in the playoffs, but in case you forgot, he played pretty damn well in the 1993 playoffs and was playing hurt.

Your arguements are hollow and unfounded.

Joel Perez
09-28-2001, 03:40 PM
What is the nature of Frank's injury again...a torn muscle in which arm?

That will affect his batting, and hopefully by spring training next year, he's 100%. That's why I said the Big 3 statement sometime ago...But if he does break out with his pre-2000 .345 BA, 40 HR, 130 RBI, then FRANK'S BACK!!!

PaleHoseGeorge
09-28-2001, 03:49 PM
Originally posted by Soxboyrob
Just to expound upon my last point...

Frank has said and done a lot of things that have been seen as an embarrassment to the Sox.
ie...
Salary demand crap in spring training

Batting practice debacle 3 years ago.

ongoing berating of umpires strike/ball calls during the season of '99

just generally having his foot implanted in his mouth.

All I know is this guy seems to find ways to make people laugh and cringe at his behavior instead of marveling at his offensive ability. If he can't turn this trend around, I'm just about willing to do without his bat. This franchise gets made fun of enough already and is sadly in need of more leadership.


Would you like Frank more if he ran out to first base with a flag in his hand and saluted everyone along the foul line? Sam-me's holdout of '99 and '00 seems forgotten amongst many fans.

If Frank would run around the bases carrying a flag, would that properly place the spotlight back on his offensive ability? Those 59 dingers hit by Samme couldn't save his team from collapsing this year.

Just askin'.

Soxboyrob
09-28-2001, 04:48 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge



Would you like Frank more if he ran out to first base with a flag in his hand and saluted everyone along the foul line? Sam-me's holdout of '99 and '00 seems forgotten amongst many fans.

If Frank would run around the bases carrying a flag, would that properly place the spotlight back on his offensive ability? Those 59 dingers hit by Samme couldn't save his team from collapsing this year.

Just askin'.

Frankly, I could do with or without the flag waving business. I didn't bother me, nor did it inspire me when Sammy did it. Nor do I think doing so would bring the spotlight back to Frank's stats. I do think that Frank has made a habit of saying stupid stupid things. When it comes to major media and major stars, stupid statements end up getting magnified and, often times, taken out of context. I've just grown a little tired of the bad press it's often brought to my favorite team. Doesn't mean I don't like having the guy on the team. I realize more than anyone what a valuable offensive tool he's been.

Not sure about any holdouts by Sammy. I know he reported late to camp w/ the permission of the team in both '99 and '00, but I never heard them classified as holdouts.

Soxboyrob
09-28-2001, 04:59 PM
Originally posted by Randar68


Frankly, I vehemently disagree with you. Frank has been himself, honest, and not always well thought out in what he says. If you want an actor who never tells you how he feels or is protected by his PR department anytime he sticks his foot in his mouth/fails to take responsibility for his words, there's a cuddly-wobbly fool on the North Side on the 'Roids. Frank is one of the nicest people you could ever meet in person or in public, and it's not a show. When a person gets divorced and forced to pay in the millions for alimony and child support, and performing under the threat of being reduced to a yearly salary of the veteran minimum with only deferred money, the man has a point. You saw exactly what the media in this city wanted you to see. As usual, nobody came out to defend the guy for wanting to be secure after going through a major life change, but you want to roast the guy.

Ray, JB, Konerko, etc have all come out and publicly said how much Frank's presense was missed in the locker room. In addition to that, do you think the slumps we've seen out of Ray and Carlos in particular and to a lesser extent Maggs had anything to do with Frank missing.

I could give a flying fu*K what your take is on Frank's persona or the media's portrayal of him as a person. You don't know the guy and you do not sit in the locker room during losing streaks or after last year's playoffs, so how in the world are you to judge his effect there?

He, along with the rest of our team did not perform well in the playoffs, but in case you forgot, he played pretty damn well in the 1993 playoffs and was playing hurt.

Your arguements are hollow and unfounded.

Well obviously, you DO give a flying rat's patootie about my take on the guy or you'd not have spent the time typing the above response.

Believe me, we're not that far apart on the guy, Randars.
I've heard over and over and over that he's the nicest guy on the planet. Fine. I don't really doubt that at all. What I've noticed is that he has a very hard time projecting that image and it seems to come back to bite him in the ass on a regular basis.

Do I think he needs the Sammy PR machine to help him word his every sentence? Not really, but for a guy that ran his OWN PR firm, you'd think he could occasionally say something w/out his foot in his mouth. I'm not out to roast him...he seems to do a pretty good job of that on his own.

His offensive contribution to the team cannot even be measured in words. I don't necessarily want him gone, but just wish he'd do/say/act like the team comes first and occasionally portray the image that he's a leader and a warrior and a go-getter. He could have this city by the balls if he understood this minor facet. Instead, Sammy and his attention-getting tactics unduly get ALL of the attention in this town.

PaleHoseGeorge
09-28-2001, 05:26 PM
Originally posted by Soxboyrob
His offensive contribution to the team cannot even be measured in words. I don't necessarily want him gone, but just wish he'd do/say/act like the team comes first and occasionally portray the image that he's a leader and a warrior and a go-getter. He could have this city by the balls if he understood this minor facet. Instead, Sammy and his attention-getting tactics unduly get ALL of the attention in this town.

Well, here we agree 100 percent. Frank Thomas OUGHT to have this town eating out of his hand, and he only has himself to blame that it doesn't. He says and does stupid things. That holdout in February was a joke. Even his agents wanted no part of it. Then he humiliates himself by being forced by Reinsdorf to publicly announce the Sox had made NO changes to his contract just days after Thomas told the press he had "an understanding" with the Sox chairman. At that moment I honestly felt sorry for the guy. How embarrassing!

I'm too young to know, but I've read that Ted Williams had a very cool relationship with the fans in Boston and the media in general. Barry Bonds has a bad public persona, too. Yet if I was asked to build a championship baseball team, I would take Big Frank, Barry, and Teddy Ballgame over So-so without a second thought.

RichieRichAllen
09-28-2001, 06:15 PM
Unfortunately, this post has denigrated to a Sammy vs. Frank argument. And it shouldn't be that way.

I think Soxboyrob makes several good points which have been watered down with Sammy ****. I doubt Soxboyrob is defending Sammy over Frank. Let's try to get the argument back on track instead of the infighting. I don't really get the feeling Soxboyrob qualifies as a Cubby infiltrator.

Frank has done stupid things and his credibility wears thin. Let's try to focus on that.

Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge


Well, here we agree 100 percent. Frank Thomas OUGHT to have this town eating out of his hand, and he only has himself to blame that it doesn't. He says and does stupid things. That holdout in February was a joke. Even his agents wanted no part of it. Then he humiliates himself by being forced by Reinsdorf to publicly announce the Sox had made NO changes to his contract just days after Thomas told the press he had "an understanding" with the Sox chairman. At that moment I honestly felt sorry for the guy. How embarrassing!

I'm too young to know, but I've read that Ted Williams had a very cool relationship with the fans in Boston and the media in general. Barry Bonds has a bad public persona, too. Yet if I was asked to build a championship baseball team, I would take Big Frank, Barry, and Teddy Ballgame over So-so without a second thought.

PaleHoseGeorge
09-28-2001, 06:22 PM
Originally posted by RichieRichAllen
Unfortunately, this post has denigrated to a Sammy vs. Frank argument. And it shouldn't be that way.

I think Soxboyrob makes several good points which have been watered down with Sammy ****. I doubt Soxboyrob is defending Sammy over Frank. Let's try to get the argument back on track instead of the infighting. I don't really get the feeling Soxboyrob qualifies as a Cubby infiltrator.

Frank has done stupid things and his credibility wears thin. Let's try to focus on that.



Okay. Let's all name the players we would want on our team the past ten years rather than Frank.

This shouldn't take too much time.

Jerry_Manuel
09-28-2001, 06:27 PM
Originally posted by RichieRichAllen
Frank has done stupid things and his credibility wears thin. Let's try to focus on that.


I think what Randar and some others are saying is they really don't care what Frank says or does off the field. As long as he produces while on the field he's ok in their book. While others counter with the fact that some of the things he has done off the field give him and perhaps the team a black eye media relations wise. It's to late for Frank to be "Chicago's Superstar" and the Sox are always going to get some sort of negative press in this city. Jerry Reinsdorf is so hated here that no matter what he does he and the Sox are going to get treated like crap. One day when he is no longer the owner things might change. But until that day comes the Sox are going to get dumped on. As far as Frank's clubhouse leadership goes I don't think the "superstar" of your team has to be the leader in the locker room. Some players just don't have that in them. On the Sox it is obvious that Jose Valentin is the leader. You can tell by the way he acts on and off the field. He has never been afraid to do or say what he feels. He showed it when he mocked Sosa at Wrigley. I'll sit back and let the adults tell me I'm wrong now.

RichieRichAllen
09-28-2001, 06:30 PM
You're kidding, right? I'll field a complete team. But, I've got brats on grill right now. I'll definitely get back to you, though.

Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge


Okay. Let's all name the players we would want on our team the past ten years rather than Frank.

This shouldn't take too much time.

Jerry_Manuel
09-28-2001, 06:34 PM
Originally posted by RichieRichAllen
You're kidding, right? I'll field a complete team.


No he's not kidding.

Spiff
09-28-2001, 06:35 PM
When you quote underneath it confuses the hell out of me. It's like reading backwards.

PaleHoseGeorge
09-28-2001, 06:40 PM
Originally posted by RichieRichAllen
You're kidding, right? I'll field a complete team. But, I've got brats on grill right now. I'll definitely get back to you, though.



Hurry up, Rich. We're waiting!!!!!

:)

RichieRichAllen
09-28-2001, 06:44 PM
Hey Jerry....production is one thing (remember Albert Belle?), chemistry is another. I'm not sure who or what qualifies as "adult" behavior to you, but come here a little closer and give me a listen.....

Frank doesn't honestly give a ****e about whether the Sox win a World Championship or not. Caipish? If winning MVP or the batting crown or the HR title is built into his contract, he's interested. Otherwise, he'll just feed you what you want to hear.

As for Sox fans who hang onto Frank like he's some kind of an icon/savior.....save it. You might as well be Cub fans saluting Sam_Me's every move. I thought we were better than that

Originally posted by Jerry_Manuel


I think what Randar and some others are saying is they really don't care what Frank says or does off the field. As long as he produces while on the field he's ok in their book. While others counter with the fact that some of the things he has done off the field give him and perhaps the team a black eye media relations wise. It's to late for Frank to be "Chicago's Superstar" and the Sox are always going to get some sort of negative press in this city. Jerry Reinsdorf is so hated here that no matter what he does he and the Sox are going to get treated like crap. One day when he is no longer the owner things might change. But until that day comes the Sox are going to get dumped on. As far as Frank's clubhouse leadership goes I don't think the "superstar" of your team has to be the lead in the locker room. Some players just don't have that in them. On the Sox it is obvious that Jose Valentin is the leader. You can tell by the way he acts on and off the field. He has never been afraid to do or say what he feels. He showed it when he mocked Sosa at Wrigley. I'll sit back and let the adults tell me I'm wrong now.

FarWestChicago
09-28-2001, 06:46 PM
Yo, Rich. You can dis the other Sox fans all you want, but at least they know how to properly use the quote function. Quote and then message. Not the other way around. :)

PaleHoseGeorge
09-28-2001, 06:50 PM
Come on, Rich. Stop trolling Ian and name that Cooperstown Nine you've discovered to replace Frank Thomas.

I'll get you started. Barry Bonds.

Only eight to go!

Spiff
09-28-2001, 06:54 PM
Originally posted by FarWestChicago
Yo, Rich. You can dis the other Sox fans all you want, but at least they know how to properly use the quote function. Quote and then message. Not the other way around. :)

haha see fwc knows what's up.

Daver
09-28-2001, 06:55 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Come on, Rich. Stop trolling Ian and name that Cooperstown Nine you've discovered to replace Frank Thomas.

I'll get you started. Barry Bonds.

Only eight to go!

Damn and people think Frank is a poor team player.

Kilroy
09-28-2001, 06:59 PM
Originally posted by RichieRichAllen Frank doesn't honestly give a ****e about whether the Sox win a World Championship or not. Caipish? If winning MVP or the batting crown or the HR title is built into his contract, he's interested. Otherwise, he'll just feed you what you want to hear.

You're hung on the headline elements here, Richie. Chemistry, vocal team leader, yadah, yadah, yadah.


We all know that winning teams have great chemistry and losing teams don't. And there's more than one way to lead a team. Ever heard of leading by example? You saw it last season when all the hitters on the Sox took their cues from the Big Hurt. All were more patient, and they all used the opposite field a lot more. Those two things are what made Frank the great hitter he is. Remember how many times they put up runs with 2 outs? And lots of those times the rally started w/ two out and no one on.

And baseball is one of the rare sports that when you focus on your own stats you help the team. Could more RBI hurt? higher b.a. hurt? More walks hurt? It's not like basketball when one player demands the ball and takes all the shots. So your selfish argument doesn't hold that much water.

Jerry_Manuel
09-28-2001, 07:03 PM
Originally posted by RichieRichAllen
Hey Jerry....production is one thing (remember Albert Belle?), chemistry is another. I'm not sure who or what qualifies as "adult" behavior to you, but come here a little closer and give me a listen.....


Yes I do remember Albert Belle. The reason I said "adult" in my last post was because I usually don't get involved in these kind of arguements. When I do my view is the wrong view so I stay out of it.

RichieRichAllen
09-28-2001, 07:08 PM
Originally posted by FarWestChicago
Yo, Rich. You can dis the other Sox fans all you want, but at least they know how to properly use the quote function. Quote and then message. Not the other way around. :)

Pardon' me', Mssrs. Board Administrators and Web Masturwhatevers......

I do take full grief/responsibility for my lack of etiquette here or wherever else I might have over-extended myself on this board....

I'm not sure who I dissed other than the aforementioned though. You know....you board boys who seemingly have some sort of love affair with Big Frank.

I loved Dick Allen back in '72 when he brought the franchise back to life. I also loved Harold Baines when he seemed to do the same in the late 70's/early 80's. I still love Frank (to a degree), but think it's time to move on. Hey, if you're such loyalists, lets give Harold another chance next year! Maybe I'm just dating myself (and loyalty).

The fact is....do you want to win or not? Frank ain't the solution if you do. He could be a cog, but I'd rather look for somebody that fits more than that role. He's marketable, but might not be in a year or two.

What is it with you boys and Thomas, anyway?

Spiff
09-28-2001, 07:15 PM
Maybe we're all hung up on this Thomas guy because HE'S REALLY REALLY GOOD.

PaleHoseGeorge
09-28-2001, 07:30 PM
Originally posted by RichieRichAllen
What is it with you boys and Thomas, anyway?


Not a thing once we're enlightened to the nine players you've offered to name who are better than Frank the past ten years. We're still waiting.

Aren't those brats done yet? They're no good if you burn them, Rich.

FarWestChicago
09-28-2001, 08:33 PM
What is it with you boys and Thomas, anyway? Imagine that. Finding Frank Thomas fans on a die hard Sox fan site. Jeez, what's this world coming to?

Daver
09-28-2001, 10:08 PM
Originally posted by FarWestChicago
Imagine that. Finding Frank Thomas fans on a die hard Sox fan site. Jeez, what's this world coming to?

Really!
Next thing you know there will be rednecks posting and all hell will break loose.
But then again what the hell do I know?

Kilroy
09-28-2001, 10:08 PM
Originally posted by RichieRichAllen
...seemingly have some sort of love affair with Big Frank...The fact is....do you want to win or not? Frank ain't the solution if you do. He could be a cog, but I'd rather look for somebody that fits more than that role. He's marketable, but might not be in a year or two.

What is it with you boys and Thomas, anyway?

I'll tell you what it is: Thomas is thought of by many as one the best, if not the best right-handed hitter of all time. He's put up hall of fame numbers in his career, and he's done it in a Sox uniform. Sox fans might cringe when he goes to speak, but they also stop what they are doing when he steps in the box.

I find it laughable that you don't think the Sox can win with a guy who's career averages are .321 ba, .440 obp, 125 rbi, 114 runs, 125 walk, and 36 hr. You called Thomas a cog? What the hell do you want? I have to join the others and ask: who are these 9 guys you'd have instead of Thomas?

idseer
09-28-2001, 10:52 PM
not many players have thomas's numbers for the last 10 years. maybe bonds, griffey, arod (7 yrs). the thing is these guys all bring complete games with them. also, position players like r. alomar might be considered more valuable.
i remember billy williams making a comment about nellie fox some years ago when fox came up 1 vote short for the hall. something along the lines of 'you got to be kidding, you can't compare fox with the real big-time sluggers'. well i say BULLS*IT! i'd rather have nellie's career on MY team, than williams. the hall of fame means more to me than who hit the most homeruns!

anyway, i agree with rich about thomas. i wanted to see him traded after last year when he was at his peak in value. i don't know that 2002 will be the time to trade him as others may be wary of his injury. but if he DOES get off to a great start i could see moving him. he could be worth a lot of added talent to this team. look, thomas is a 300 pound guy. i believe when he starts to go ... he'll go fast. i'll be very surprised if he has more than 1 or 2 thomas-like years left in him.

as an aside, i disagree with whoever said he HAS hof numbers.
to me the hof means career ... not a streak. compare thomas's numbers to, say, tony perez. i'd say he has to add another 3 or more solid years to be real hall of fame.

Jerry_Manuel
09-28-2001, 11:15 PM
Originally posted by idseer
anyway, i agree with rich about thomas. i wanted to see him traded after last year when he was at his peak in value. i don't know that 2002 will be the time to trade him as others may be wary of his injury. but if he DOES get off to a great start i could see moving him.


Even if the Sox wanted to move him he could still veto any deal since he is a 10-5 guy.

idseer
09-29-2001, 09:22 AM
Originally posted by Jerry_Manuel



Even if the Sox wanted to move him he could still veto any deal since he is a 10-5 guy.

this is true, however, i don't believe this would be a problem. jr has him by the nads.

voodoochile
09-29-2001, 10:35 AM
Originally posted by idseer


this is true, however, i don't believe this would be a problem. jr has him by the nads.

Not entirely true. If JR does do something stupid like try and invoke the Diminished Skills clause, there would be a large upswell of Frank support from the fans and JR would look like a tyranical ogre (what's new?)

I've argued this with idseer before, so I won't specifically respond to him other than to say two things:

1)The complete player argument is a bunch of crap. I've always thought so. Giambi isn't in line for a $15 million+ contract because he plays a scintilating 1B. ShamME isn't getting $17 million/year to run down flys in the gap and hit the cutoff man (good thing too), Manny Rameriz isn't being paid $18 million per year because he is a good field no hit guy. Frank could go stand at first and do a respectable job (as he always has in the field) and it wouldn't change a thing in terms of his production (well, it might cause him to be injured again and then his numbers go way down as he sits out for the season).

2)7 straight seasons of Thomas' numbers and another one 2 years later with 2 years in the middle where he "only" put up the following averages...

.285 avg .394 OBP .476 slg% .874 OPS 22 HR 36 2B 152 H 99 BB 92 R 93 RBI

IS NOT A STREAK!!! IT IS A CAREER!!!

I for one am dying to see that list of 9 players who RRA would rather have than Frank Thomas from the 90's.

I admit, I'm biased. Frank is one of my two all-time favorite Sox players. I think he gets a real bad rap because of his terrible footinmouthitus. He was a leader on the '00 team and was severly missed this year. Anyone think that with Frank in the lineup this year, the Sox don't win the division hands down? Anyone? Case closed...

idseer
09-29-2001, 11:36 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile


Not entirely true. If JR does do something stupid like try and invoke the Diminished Skills clause, there would be a large upswell of Frank support from the fans and JR would look like a tyranical ogre (what's new?)

I've argued this with idseer before, so I won't specifically respond to him other than to say two things:

1)The complete player argument is a bunch of crap. I've always thought so. Giambi isn't in line for a $15 million+ contract because he plays a scintilating 1B. ShamME isn't getting $17 million/year to run down flys in the gap and hit the cutoff man (good thing too), Manny Rameriz isn't being paid $18 million per year because he is a good field no hit guy. Frank could go stand at first and do a respectable job (as he always has in the field) and it wouldn't change a thing in terms of his production (well, it might cause him to be injured again and then his numbers go way down as he sits out for the season).

2)7 straight seasons of Thomas' numbers and another one 2 years later with 2 years in the middle where he "only" put up the following averages...

.285 avg .394 OBP .476 slg% .874 OPS 22 HR 36 2B 152 H 99 BB 92 R 93 RBI

IS NOT A STREAK!!! IT IS A CAREER!!!

I for one am dying to see that list of 9 players who RRA would rather have than Frank Thomas from the 90's.

I admit, I'm biased. Frank is one of my two all-time favorite Sox players. I think he gets a real bad rap because of his terrible footinmouthitus. He was a leader on the '00 team and was severly missed this year. Anyone think that with Frank in the lineup this year, the Sox don't win the division hands down? Anyone? Case closed...

first, JR doesn't have to worry about lowering anyones estimation of him. also he doesn't have to actually invoke the clause to get thomas to agree to a trade. i just don't believe it would be very hard to do.
hey, i agree i'd rather have a great hitter who can't do anything else than an average hitter who's a great fielder. but all things being equal i'll take the great hitter/fielder over just a great hitter. there IS more to the game than hitting!

as to the 'streak' ... i don't know what other word to use for it. but i disagree about it being a ' hall of fame" career. 1200 rbi's is not a good careers production unless you're a ss, 2b, or catcher.
i've said it before, he's a hall of famer with another couple years. no one can deny his avg yearly numbers.
thomas was one of my all-time favs for about his first 5 years also. but i came to see he has no fire, desire, or whatever it's called, and his self-promotion really turned me off (i remember seeing a picture of him in a business suit sitting cross-armed at a desk with that big grin on his face with t-shirts stacked up and promotional crap all over the place. it was all about how his well-oiled machine was going to cleanup in the market place)(i know it's typical now and it's not illegal or anything ... it just seemed pretty slimey to me).
i don't really dislike him, i just feel his best value right now is as trade material (assuming he can still play).

and yes i think we'd have won if frank could have played this year, but only if he produced last years numbers. he may not have.

who's your other favorite voodoo?

voodoochile
09-29-2001, 01:03 PM
who's your other favorite voodoo?

You already mentioned him... Haaarold...

RichieRichAllen
09-29-2001, 02:21 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge



Not a thing once we're enlightened to the nine players you've offered to name who are better than Frank the past ten years. We're still waiting.

Aren't those brats done yet? They're no good if you burn them, Rich.

Who said anything about the past 10 years? That's a mighty long time. A full career for most players. There isn't a doubt that Frank has been arguably the greatest hitter in Sox history. But can we focus on the present day a little more, ol' timer?

The past four years we've seen Frank put up the following:

1998 .361 OBP .480 SLG .265 AVG 29 HR 109 RBI
1999 .414 .471 .305 15 77
2000 .436 .625 .328 43 143
2001 .316 .441 .221 4 10

CAREER .438 .577 .319 348 1193

Last year, we saw the Frank of old. For two consecutive years ('98 and '99), I don't know who or what we were looking at. Now, we're looking at a year that after a slow start, there's a season ending injury. No room for concern there? Maybe not for a young ballplayer, but Frank left that life stage a couple of years back.

So, at the moment, we have the following....

A great player who's had one great year in the past four years.

A season-ending injury to a not-so-youthful anymore Big Hurt.

A guy who doesn't like playing the field amongst a team chock full 'o DH's.

The possibility that even some of his teammates questioned his "gamemanship" after the David Wells remarks. (Of course, the remarks were proven wrong....but nonetheless, perhaps some of his teammates see something we don't, but don't talk about it.....because he's been viewed (justifiably so) as the "Franchise" for the past 10 years.

Somebody who seems to balk at the leadership role (sorry, putting up good numbers might be considered leadership by example....but how often has he negated that leadership through stupid actions....as recent as his spring holdout this year).

As for other players I'd consider having on my team.....you can get caught up in analysis paralysis (one thing you guys have in common with Frank is that you love the numbers), but yada, yada, yada nothing.....attitude and gamemanship win you titles. Here are some guys I wouldn't mind seeing in White Sox uniforms (note the omission of Mssrs. Bonds and Sosa and Griffey).

Todd Helton, Jason Giambi, Roberto Alomar, Chipper Jones, Alex Rodriquez, Luis Gonzalez, Shawn Green, Manny Ramirez
Vladimir Guerrero, Pudge Rodriquez, Jeff Bagwell

Of course, naming all these guys puts me in the target practice range. Fire away! But I've gotta' tell you, there should be no sacred cows on next year's Sox team. That is, if it could bring in somebody who can put up the numbers plus add some key intangibles to this team's chemistry.

The Sox may win with Thomas, but I still think they could win without him.