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valposoxfan
07-21-2004, 08:21 PM
Carlos looked to have hurt his back on a swing following his second HR. If this is the case and it is something more than a tweak, this could be a huge problem considering he has been one of the hottest hitters on this offense over the past month. Just what we need at this time...

RKMeibalane
07-21-2004, 08:27 PM
Carlos looked to have hurt his back on a swing following his second HR. If this is the case and it is something more than a tweak, this could be a huge problem considering he has been one of the hottest hitters on this offense over the past month. Just what we need at this time...
Well, we'll see if anything comes of this situation. With Frank out for seven more weeks (at least), the Sox cannot afford to lose another player. Carlos Delgado doesn't want to leave Toronto, so there is no one else the Sox could get if Lee has injured his back.

OTOH, he may be fine, and we don't have anything to worry about.

HomeFish
07-21-2004, 08:32 PM
John and Farmer were commenting on how Lee seemed injured before his second HR.

npdempse
07-21-2004, 08:33 PM
I think Hawk would have said something if he was hurt. At that point in a laffer, Ozzie's just letting the kids play

siugrad25
07-21-2004, 08:35 PM
Carlos looked to have hurt his back on a swing following his second HR. If this is the case and it is something more than a tweak, this could be a huge problem considering he has been one of the hottest hitters on this offense over the past month. Just what we need at this time...

:chickenlittle

Maybe, just maybe, they took out Lee b/c they were beating the crap out of Cleveland. So am I supposed to worry about Maggs too since they took him out of this lopsided game? Please stop worrying, there's no indication that Lee is hurt right now. Just enjoy this win!!! After the crap we've dealt with the past few weeks, let's just think positive as a sign of things to come vs. the AL Central.

HomeFish
07-21-2004, 08:37 PM
If Carlos is truely injured, "the sky is falling" is an understatement. That's a season-ending injury for this team.

Blob
07-21-2004, 08:38 PM
If Carlos is truely injured, "the sky is falling" is an understatement. That's a season-ending injury for this team.
Give it up already...

HomeFish
07-21-2004, 08:39 PM
Give it up already...

You would deny Carlos's importance to this team?

Blob
07-21-2004, 08:41 PM
You would deny Carlos's importance to this team?
No, but I wouldn't say it was the end of the season either!!!

pudge
07-21-2004, 08:42 PM
You would deny Carlos's importance to this team?
I would not deny that you are borderline insane.

gobears1987
07-21-2004, 08:42 PM
Given that he hit an HR after the point he hurt himself I'd say it is something worth a day or nights rest and a little caution and hten being OK.

RKMeibalane
07-21-2004, 08:45 PM
I would not deny that you are borderline insane.
I'm inclined to agree with Homefish on this one. With Frank out until September, the Sox cannot afford to keep losing key offensive players. Their lineup has too many holes as it is. If Carlos goes down, that means that someone like Ross Gload will be getting starts in the outfield. Given how poorly Gload played during the Cubs series, I don't want to see him out there again. If Lee is hurt, the Sox may have no other choice.

npdempse
07-21-2004, 08:59 PM
I'm inclined to agree with Homefish on this one. With Frank out until September, the Sox cannot afford to keep losing key offensive players. Their lineup has too many holes as it is. If Carlos goes down, that means that someone like Ross Gload will be getting starts in the outfield. Given how poorly Gload played during the Cubs series, I don't want to see him out there again. If Lee is hurt, the Sox may have no other choice.
You people are nuts. Farmer or Rooney says "Carlos looks owey", when he could have been wincing from sweat in his eye or one of the jewels rattling around inside his jock, and we're talking about the season being over???? :?:

zach23
07-21-2004, 09:00 PM
If Carlos is truely injured, "the sky is falling" is an understatement. That's a season-ending injury for this team.

Sorry, but why are you a Sox fan? You spent the past few days raving about how great the Indians are, you find any small negative in anything good that happens (complaining about Everett being only 1-3 in a game the Sox win 14-0), you pine for every ex-Sox player yet have very little praise for any of the ones producing here right now, and you post in the other forum about how the mighty cubbies are going to get the wild card and will be some huge force in the playoffs.
It just seems like you don't like much about the Sox but you are very enamored with other teams that are the flavor of the month.

zach23
07-21-2004, 09:02 PM
I'm inclined to agree with Homefish on this one. With Frank out until September, the Sox cannot afford to keep losing key offensive players. Their lineup has too many holes as it is. If Carlos goes down, that means that someone like Ross Gload will be getting starts in the outfield. Given how poorly Gload played during the Cubs series, I don't want to see him out there again. If Lee is hurt, the Sox may have no other choice.

Can we wait until there is official word that he is hurt before we all call suicide hotline? He didn't look hurt hitting that ball out of the park.

RKMeibalane
07-21-2004, 09:02 PM
You people are nuts. Farmer or Rooney says "Carlos looks owey", when he could have been wincing from sweat in his eye or one of the jewels rattling around inside his jock, and we're talking about the season being over???? :?:
All I'm saying is that the Sox can't afford to have any more key players suffer injuries that land them on the disabled list (which they can't). I can understand why people are tired of reading Homefish's negative posts, but I don't think I'm nuts for saying that the Sox would be in trouble if Lee is hurt.

Now, if he's not hurt, then the point is moot. :smile:

fquaye149
07-21-2004, 09:02 PM
it's not as though we CAN'T win without Carlos. If you think we CAN'T you're not being reasonable.

However it's certainly not a situation we should encourage.

Carlos is important. What's more important is pitching.

South Side
07-21-2004, 09:06 PM
This board always has something to disagree about even after a 14-0 blow out.:rolleyes:

RKMeibalane
07-21-2004, 09:07 PM
This board always has something to disagree about even after a 14-0 blow out.:rolleyes:
That's what separates WSI from other boards. We actually have intelligent debats and discussions taking place here. Other forums don't. :D:

owensmouth
07-21-2004, 09:09 PM
This board always has something to disagree about even after a 14-0 blow out.:rolleyes:
Only 14-0? Darn, I thought it was 15-0.

fquaye149
07-21-2004, 09:11 PM
That's what separates WSI from other boards. We actually have intelligent debats and discussions taking place here. Other forums don't. :D:
If you consider "the sky is falling" "sell Jerry sell" and "fire Kenny Williams" intelligent debates.

And that's not even to mention the church of Billy Beane and latter day Bill James.

South Side
07-21-2004, 09:14 PM
Only 14-0? Darn, I thought it was 15-0.
I know, and we had a runner on 3rd in the 9th and we couldn't even freaking bring him in... This team needs to learn how to manufacture a run!

Ironically, (and sadly) I could be saying this for real tomorrow but I'm not negative. :cool:

RKMeibalane
07-21-2004, 09:15 PM
If you consider "the sky is falling" "sell Jerry sell" and "fire Kenny Williams" intelligent debates.

And that's not even to mention the church of Billy Beane and latter day Bill James.
I do consider the "Sell, Jerry, Sell!" threads intelligent baseball discussion. I have yet to encounter a Sox can who doesn't believe that Reinsdorf should sell the ballclub. The "Fire KW" threads are ridiculous. He has done a lot for this team, especially considering that JR won't increase the team's payroll. Billy Beane discussions of any type should be moved to the Roadhouse, or they should be banned outright. :cool:

samram
07-21-2004, 09:20 PM
Has there been anything said on the postgame show about Carlos's back? I find it hard to believe it can be serious if he was able to hit a homer 10 seconds after he injured it.

RKMeibalane
07-21-2004, 10:00 PM
Has there been anything said on the postgame show about Carlos's back? I find it hard to believe it can be serious if he was able to hit a homer 10 seconds after he injured it.
It may not have been serious after all. Then again, Frank played on his "sore foot" for three weeks until it was finally determined that he had broken it. Let's just hope that Kenny "Decoy" Williams doesn't say anyting negative about Carlos in front of the media.

:KW

"I'm not a doctor, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night."

fquaye149
07-21-2004, 10:27 PM
I do consider the "Sell, Jerry, Sell!" threads intelligent baseball discussion. I have yet to encounter a Sox can who doesn't believe that Reinsdorf should sell the ballclub. The "Fire KW" threads are ridiculous. He has done a lot for this team, especially considering that JR won't increase the team's payroll. Billy Beane discussions of any type should be moved to the Roadhouse, or they should be banned outright. :cool:
Well, now you've run into at least one.

I think Reinsdorf isn't doing a horrible job. Shock!

But seriously, payroll additions for the sake of payroll isn't good baseball. Reinsdorf's caution with signing pitchers has been well-founded.

Also, I think Reinsdorf has shown he's willing to add payroll at times.

Yes he's made some mistakes, put his foot in his mouth, alienated fans, but what owner's perfect? No, I don't hate Reinsdorf. Maybe I'm the only Sox fan who feels this way.

Lip Man 1
07-21-2004, 10:34 PM
Fquaye asks: "what owner's perfect?"
Well I can think of three...George Steinbrenner, Arte Moreno (gotta love anybody who lowers beer prices!) and Mark Cuban.

Now I'm not talking about character issues, I'm talking about the most important thing, a desire and passion for winning, whatever the costs.

Sure beats the hell out of the McCaskey family, Bill 'The Drunk' Wirtz and Uncle Jerry doesn't it?

Lip

TornLabrum
07-21-2004, 10:48 PM
Carlos appeared to be favoring his back in the AB after the homer. It is possible that he pulled a muscle back there or something like that. Not horribly serious but very uncomforable when you're trying to swing a baseball bat.

hawkjt
07-21-2004, 10:52 PM
Immediately before the 2nd homer he swung very hard at a high pitch and immediatly grimaced and started stretching his back. Typically Fox is showing the 2nd replay of the bad swing when CLee hit the second HR. At least they did show the replay. What was with the sound tonite.?

inta
07-21-2004, 11:00 PM
everyone needs to take a breath.
even if his back is hurt, which i'm betting it isn't, it could be a short term thing.
pujols had some back problems, sat out a few and came back dominating.

OzzieBall2004
07-21-2004, 11:13 PM
What have we all learned from this thread....

1) HomeFish is 100% negative, and admitted in a thread earlier today he has no faith in the Sox down the stretch. His post here should come as no suprise to anyone.

2) Carlos hit a home run after the "hurt back incident"

3) And oh, yeah....NOTHING!

THIS THREAD SUCKS, IF I KNEW HOW TO GET THAT FUGLY LOOKING THUMBS DOWN GUY, I WOULD!

:dtroll:

Rudy Law
07-21-2004, 11:17 PM
This board always has something to disagree about even after a 14-0 blow out.:rolleyes:

Yeah...I don't like how Buehrle gave up those 2 hits..I think the Indians have him figured out...I think we should just give up on the 2004 season

valposoxfan
07-21-2004, 11:25 PM
What have we all learned from this thread....

1) HomeFish is 100% negative, and admitted in a thread earlier today he has no faith in the Sox down the stretch. His post here should come as no suprise to anyone.

2) Carlos hit a home run after the "hurt back incident"

3) And oh, yeah....NOTHING!

THIS THREAD SUCKS, IF I KNEW HOW TO GET THAT FUGLY LOOKING THUMBS DOWN GUY, I WOULD!

:dtroll:

Alright I am going to defend myself since this is my thread. The reason that I brought up the fact that Carlos might be injured was because it was mentioned AFTER his final HR. It was the at bat where he struck out in the fifth. It was before Howry came in when the camera panned to show Carlos wincing as he tried to stretch out his back. Then Hawk and DJ mentioned he looked like he was in a little bit of pain and then he went down swinging in a pretty awful at bat. Then, in the following half inning, Gload had replaced him in RF. This wasn't just a thread that was created for the hell of it, it is a genuine concern, that I quite frankly, believe should have been a concern.

TornLabrum
07-22-2004, 12:14 AM
Yeah...I don't like how Buehrle gave up those 2 hits..I think the Indians have him figured out...I think we should just give up on the 2004 season
Not Teal, Medium Turquoise
Teal

FarWestChicago
07-22-2004, 12:28 AM
Not Teal, Medium Turquoise
TealIt's absolutely maddening. 5 over 2 down folks. It says "Teal" when you place your cursor over it. http://www.flyingsock.com/vbulletin/images/smilies/mg.gif

Nellie_Fox
07-22-2004, 12:31 AM
Not Teal, Medium Turquoise
TealSince this is becoming an issue on so many threads, it appears that we need to limit the number of color options.:?:

FarWestChicago
07-22-2004, 12:34 AM
Since this is becoming an issue on so many threads, it appears that we need to limit the number of color options.:?:I have to think about it. I figured out how to modify them to replace Magenta with Deep Pink. But, there must be 40 of them. I need to replace Cyan and Medium Turquoise with something so far from Teal even our color blind users can't make a mistake. http://www.flyingsock.com/vbulletin/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

pearso66
07-22-2004, 12:47 AM
Sorry, but why are you a Sox fan? You spent the past few days raving about how great the Indians are, you find any small negative in anything good that happens (complaining about Everett being only 1-3 in a game the Sox win 14-0), you pine for every ex-Sox player yet have very little praise for any of the ones producing here right now, and you post in the other forum about how the mighty cubbies are going to get the wild card and will be some huge force in the playoffs.
It just seems like you don't like much about the Sox but you are very enamored with other teams that are the flavor of the month.
He was also the one earlier in the year saying how great Minnesota was and that we had no chance against them.

flo-B-flo
07-22-2004, 01:30 AM
Fquaye asks: "what owner's perfect?"
Well I can think of three...George Steinbrenner, Arte Moreno (gotta love anybody who lowers beer prices!) and Mark Cuban.

Now I'm not talking about character issues, I'm talking about the most important thing, a desire and passion for winning, whatever the costs.

Sure beats the hell out of the McCaskey family, Bill 'The Drunk' Wirtz and Uncle Jerry doesn't it?

Lip Couldn't have said it better.:smile: What do those three have in common? They KNOW their FANS wanna win and they try like hell to make it happen. Chicago owners are useless.:rolleyes:

Nellie_Fox
07-22-2004, 01:53 AM
Couldn't have said it better.:smile: What do those three have in common? They KNOW their FANS wanna win and they try like hell to make it happen. Chicago owners are useless.:rolleyes:Yeah, jump on the Lip "hate everything related to Sox ownership" bandwagon.

The biggest criticism that could be made of Sox management lately is that they have given up too much to try to win this year.

You can't compare any franchise to the Yankees. Steinbrenner has money to spend that no one else has. Period.

Cuban owns the team as a hobby. I'm sorry, you can't ask every team owner to be willing to spend out of his own pocket to try to win. Pro sports is a business, and I can't fault any owner for expecting to stay in the black.

WhiteSox = Life
07-22-2004, 01:59 AM
Yeah, jump on the Lip "hate everything related to Sox ownership" bandwagon.

The biggest criticism that could be made of Sox management lately is that they have given up too much to try to win this year.

You can't compare any franchise to the Yankees. Steinbrenner has money to spend that no one else has. Period.

Cuban owns the team as a hobby. I'm sorry, you can't ask every team owner to be willing to spend out of his own pocket to try to win. Pro sports is a business, and I can't fault any owner for expecting to stay in the black.
And, don't quote me if I'm wrong on this, but I believe I read Arte Moreno is raising ticket prices and/or cutting pay roll next year. I'm not sure, but I am led to believe I read that somewhere (on WSI, if my memory serves me correctly).

:?:

Aidan
07-22-2004, 02:10 AM
What have we all learned from this thread....

1) HomeFish is 100% negative, and admitted in a thread earlier today he has no faith in the Sox down the stretch. His post here should come as no suprise to anyone.
Everyone knows that about HomeFish. I think he's mad that we only beat the Indians by 14 runs.

They just said on The Score that Maggs left the game because of the score and to get some more rest for his sore knee from 2 days ago. They said nothing about Carlos Lee though.

fquaye149
07-22-2004, 07:17 AM
Everyone knows that about HomeFish. I think he's mad that we only beat the Indians by 14 runs.

They just said on The Score that Maggs left the game because of the score and to get some more rest for his sore knee from 2 days ago. They said nothing about Carlos Lee though.
no he's mad because the cubs won. he'd rather see the cubs and sox lose than vice versa

misty60481
07-22-2004, 08:30 AM
Carlos hasnt had much rest this year maybe after tonite give him a day or 2 rest, we want him strong for Twins, I think Indians blew there wad during early part of week and now will come back down especially with Garcia throwing---

TornLabrum
07-22-2004, 08:32 AM
It's absolutely maddening. 5 over 2 down folks. It says "Teal" when you place your cursor over it. http://www.flyingsock.com/vbulletin/images/smilies/mg.gif
The only reason I harp on this so much is because I can barely read medium turquoise. It looks like one big turquoise smear to me.

owensmouth
07-22-2004, 08:34 AM
I think Freddie went to Ozzie and had Carlos Lee removed last nite. "Save some of those homers for my game"

TornLabrum
07-22-2004, 08:34 AM
Everyone knows that about HomeFish. I think he's mad that we only beat the Indians by 14 runs.

They just said on The Score that Maggs left the game because of the score and to get some more rest for his sore knee from 2 days ago. They said nothing about Carlos Lee though.Lee is probably seriously injured and Prof. Chaos want to use him as a decoy.

thepaulbowski
07-22-2004, 08:37 AM
The only reason I harp on this so much is because I can barely read medium turquoise. It looks like one big turquoise smear to me.Maybe if people aren't bright enough to use the right color, they aren't bright enough to post something intelligent that you'd want to read anyways. :)

gosox41
07-22-2004, 08:51 AM
And, don't quote me if I'm wrong on this, but I believe I read Arte Moreno is raising ticket prices and/or cutting pay roll next year. I'm not sure, but I am led to believe I read that somewhere (on WSI, if my memory serves me correctly).

:?:

But Art Moreno is clearly the greatest owner who is going to revolutionize the game. He'll show everyone how to do it right.


Oh, wait. His plan isn't working like he thought. Could it be because making money as an owner in baseball is more difficult then people realize or could it be because he suddenly turned into a Scrooge who wants to profit instead of win?


Bob

Iwritecode
07-22-2004, 09:52 AM
Yeah, jump on the Lip "hate everything related to Sox ownership" bandwagon.

The biggest criticism that could be made of Sox management lately is that they have given up too much to try to win this year.

You can't compare any franchise to the Yankees. Steinbrenner has money to spend that no one else has. Period.

Cuban owns the team as a hobby. I'm sorry, you can't ask every team owner to be willing to spend out of his own pocket to try to win. Pro sports is a business, and I can't fault any owner for expecting to stay in the black.

King George kind of built that empire from the ground up. IIRC, they weren't exactly selling out every game when he bought the team and he had to put a hell of a lot of money into restoring Yankee Stadium. He put together a number of good teams and is now reaping the benefits.

JR, on the other hand, gets Illinois taxpayers to build him a brand new stadium and then gets a large corporation to pay for renovations just a short decade later...

The only thing I can say about JR and the payroll is that he is still only a partial owner. There are still a number of other owners (that noticably stay out of the public eye) that would rather not lose money than win a WS...

Dadawg_77
07-22-2004, 10:05 AM
King George kind of built that empire from the ground up. IIRC, they weren't exactly selling out every game when he bought the team and he had to put a hell of a lot of money into restoring Yankee Stadium. He put together a number of good teams and is now reaping the benefits.

JR, on the other hand, gets Illinois taxpayers to build him a brand new stadium and then gets a large corporation to pay for renovations just a short decade later...

The only thing I can say about JR and the payroll is that he is still only a partial owner. There are still a number of other owners (that noticably stay out of the public eye) that would rather not lose money than win a WS...
But George has the New York media market and prestige of the Yankees history. While Chicago is third largest media market, it isn't New York and instead of 23 World Series wins, the Sox have 1919 in their history. So while George rebuilt the Yankees, he had a much stronger foundation to build on then Jerry did with the Sox. This isn't to say Jerry ****ed up the program and could have done a much better job.

Carlos tweak his back on the second homer it looked like. Nothing to serious is appreared but why take chances when your pitcher is shutting the opposition out and you have 10 runs on the board.

As for effect losing Carlos would have on the team, well it would mean (Gload or Perez) or Everett would move to LF and Harris/Uribe would DH while the other one played the field. That isn't a pleasant thought.

Lip Man 1
07-22-2004, 11:03 AM
Bob:

In just one off season Arte Moreno generated more positive publicity, sold more tickets and put the Angels in the 'driver's seat' according to everyone who covers baseball in Southern California.

That's in one off season.

Now contrast that to the 23 years of Uncle Jerry's stewardship.

Are the Sox in the 'driver's seat' for Chicago baseball supremacy? How many season ticket holders do the Sox have? Is the Sox market share bigger or smaller now from when he took over. Hell the man gave the Cubs their biggest drawing card that brought them back from the brink in Harry Caray (or don't you remember when the upper deck was closed for lack of fans...)

Feel free to defend Sox ownership, that's your right, but you are in the minority. Most Sox 'fans' have a hard time defending a multimillionair owner who still hasn't made even one World Series appearance.

Lip

hawkjt
07-22-2004, 11:04 AM
It was obvious to any watching the game that he tweaked it on the huge swing and a miss just prior to the 2nd homer. That is why they were showing a replay of the missed swing when he hit the homer. hawk and Dj were commenting on it and so the stupid producers feel obligated to show it twice while live action in the form of a homer was going on. I swear it is the worst baseball coverage ever this year with missing live action.

Lip Man 1
07-22-2004, 11:06 AM
Dadawg:

Yankee history didn't count for much when that club was a joke in the mid 70's and when they went 14 years without a playoff appearance. That same New York media crucified Steinbrenner.

Twice under different conditions the man produced a winner first in the late 70's and then from the mid 90's through 2000 and afterwards he kept making it to the post season.

Give the man his props, the New York market doesn't mean squat when you lose, he has and didn't like the feeling.

I wish Uncle Jerry would have as much hate towards losing as he does towards Don Fehr and the MLBPA.

Lip

pudge
07-22-2004, 11:24 AM
Bob:

In just one off season Arte Moreno generated more positive publicity, sold more tickets and put the Angels in the 'driver's seat' according to everyone who covers baseball in Southern California.

That's in one off season.

Now contrast that to the 23 years of Uncle Jerry's stewardship.

Are the Sox in the 'driver's seat' for Chicago baseball supremacy? How many season ticket holders do the Sox have? Is the Sox market share bigger or smaller now from when he took over. Hell the man gave the Cubs their biggest drawing card that brought them back from the brink in Harry Caray (or don't you remember when the upper deck was closed for lack of fans...)

Feel free to defend Sox ownership, that's your right, but you are in the minority. Most Sox 'fans' have a hard time defending a multimillionair owner who still hasn't made even one World Series appearance.

Lip
Yes and Moreno also spent money like a foolish moron and rumors are that he's starting to regret it. Guess who's in the "driver's seat" now? Texas and Oakland.

longshot7
07-22-2004, 11:32 AM
Yes and Moreno also spent money like a foolish moron and rumors are that he's starting to regret it. Guess who's in the "driver's seat" now? Texas and Oakland.

Oh, so signing the #1 hitting and #1 pitching free agents in the offseason is spending like a foolish moron? It's not his fault that Colon hasn't lived up to expectations - his track record has not indicated anything like this - he might even be injured. And as for Guererro - what isn't the guy doing? He can't pitch too.

Oh, and as for whoever posted that they're cutting payroll or raising prices, they're not. Nothing's been announced, and if the Angels draw 3 mil (which it's pretty likely they will), I imagine they'll be buyers again next offseason. As a season ticketholder, I hope so.

bennyw41
07-22-2004, 11:37 AM
So, is he hurt or not!!!!

Flight #24
07-22-2004, 11:42 AM
Bob:

In just one off season Arte Moreno generated more positive publicity, sold more tickets and put the Angels in the 'driver's seat' according to everyone who covers baseball in Southern California.

That's in one off season.

Now contrast that to the 23 years of Uncle Jerry's stewardship.

Are the Sox in the 'driver's seat' for Chicago baseball supremacy? How many season ticket holders do the Sox have? Is the Sox market share bigger or smaller now from when he took over. Hell the man gave the Cubs their biggest drawing card that brought them back from the brink in Harry Caray (or don't you remember when the upper deck was closed for lack of fans...)

Feel free to defend Sox ownership, that's your right, but you are in the minority. Most Sox 'fans' have a hard time defending a multimillionair owner who still hasn't made even one World Series appearance.

Lip
To be a fair comparison, you'd need to compare that to what JR did when he came in as a new owner. IIRC, he made a pretty big splash with the "first class organization" comment and some of the early moves. Just a few years in, Moreno is already cutting back and showing more fiscal conservatism. It's easy to throw around money until you start seeing what type of return you get.......

And even when the Yankees were doing poorly, they were still a big money machine simply due to the combination of their history and the NY media market. George may have been a laughingstock in the papers, but the $$$ were there (although not like they are now). And Mark Cuban is a joke ala Dan Snyder. Neither's won a thing, and the Sox have been as consistently successful as their teams have given the differences in the sports.

I bet a few years ago, Colangelo would have been at or near the top of your owners list. Now - he's cut back significantly and had to sell out. Same with Tom Hicks when he signed ARod. His "going for it" really invigorated the Texas fans huh? So much so that they were staying home in droves until this year.

Jerry runs a first class organization. By all accounts, he puts available $$$ into the payroll. His teams have been one of the more consistently successful in baseball over the past decade when you look at W-L record. They've fluctuated from slightly below average to slightly above, never being terrible and occasionally being very good. Would you rather have Tom Hicks?

JR's in the top half of owners in baseball, especially when you look at anyone who's been around for more than 2-3 years (i.e. owners who aren't operating under false assumptions). He's not Steinbrenner, but then no one is except Big George himself.

Flight #24
07-22-2004, 11:46 AM
Oh, so signing the #1 hitting and #1 pitching free agents in the offseason is spending like a foolish moron? It's not his fault that Colon hasn't lived up to expectations - his track record has not indicated anything like this - he might even be injured. And as for Guererro - what isn't the guy doing? He can't pitch too.

It was in Bart's case, no? I mean who could have predicted that a consistently overweight guy with a lot of innings on his arm might break down within the next couple of years???

Being a good owner means taking good risks and being willing to pay for them. Paying significantly more than anyone else in the marketplace for a relatively high-risk guy does not qualify. There was a reason that the reaction to the Colon deal around baseball wwas "he'll regret that sooner or later". Arte will learn (if he hasn't already), that making the big splash via signing big money deals doesn't mean much if you dont' make smart decisions on who to give them to and who not to.

Mickster
07-22-2004, 11:49 AM
Being a good owner means taking good risks and being willing to pay for them. Paying significantly more than anyone else in the marketplace for a relatively high-risk guy does not qualify. There was a reason that the reaction to the Colon deal around baseball wwas "he'll regret that sooner or later". Arte will learn (if he hasn't already), that making the big splash via signing big money deals doesn't mean much if you dont' make smart decisions on who to give them to and who not to.
Good analysis. The "Owner of your Dreams" Arte outbit other teams (namely the Sox) by $16mm for the services of Fartolo! Not very smart.

FarWestChicago
07-22-2004, 11:54 AM
So, is he hurt or not!!!!Who knows? It doesn't matter. Lip is busy ripping on JR again. :hijacked:

Dadawg_77
07-22-2004, 12:03 PM
JR's in the top half of owners in baseball, especially when you look at anyone who's been around for more than 2-3 years (i.e. owners who aren't operating under false assumptions). He's not Steinbrenner, but then no one is except Big George himself.
Well being in the top half of baseball owners is faint praise when you have people like Bud Selig, Carl Pollard owning teams.

samram
07-22-2004, 12:06 PM
Good analysis. The "Owner of your Dreams" Arte outbit other teams (namely the Sox) by $16mm for the services of Fartolo! Not very smart.
Nope, it wasn't smart. And this goodwill he has built up is going to be gone soon if the team doesn't make a push soon, especially with the Dodgers, who have always been the #1 team out there, playing very well. It doesn't look like they will get RJ because he won't go there. Also, next year, they are probably going to lose Glaus, Percival, will probably have to trade Guillen or Kennedy to get Figgins a spot, and will trade or lose Ortiz, maybe Lackey or Washburn, maybe more. If the Dodgers sign Beltran, which I think is a good possibility, the Angels will be on the back-burner again. They won't be a bad team, but they will lose a lot of the momentum they built up starting early this year.

TDog
07-22-2004, 12:17 PM
...
Oh, and as for whoever posted that they're cutting payroll or raising prices, they're not. Nothing's been announced, and if the Angels draw 3 mil (which it's pretty likely they will), I imagine they'll be buyers again next offseason. As a season ticketholder, I hope so.
Moreno said in an interview that ran on the Associated Press wire during the All-Star break that he plans to cut payroll. It was in his explanation as to why he had no interest in Randy Johnson. He said he will not trade the team's prospects, who will not demand such huge salaries. I didn't see anything about Moreno wanting to raise prices. I don't have a link because I didn't read the story on the Internet.

Flight #24
07-22-2004, 12:20 PM
Well being in the top half of baseball owners is faint praise when you have people like Bud Selig, Carl Pollard owning teams.
Well, Pohlad's done pretty well with the Twins coming off of back to back division titles and being Peter Gammons "right" team to win the WS....

But regardless, any comparison is only relative to the rest in the peer group. It doesn't really matter if JR is say, worse than Mother Theresa, just that he's better than most other baseball owners.

Flight #24
07-22-2004, 12:32 PM
Moreno said in an interview that ran on the Associated Press wire during the All-Star break that he plans to cut payroll. It was in his explanation as to why he had no interest in Randy Johnson. He said he will not trade the team's prospects, who will not demand such huge salaries. I didn't see anything about Moreno wanting to raise prices. I don't have a link because I didn't read the story on the Internet.
A quick Google search turned up this 2dhand review of an LA Times article in April:

Bill Shaikin of the Los Angeles Times explains how the Anaheim Angels can afford the majors' third highest Opening Day payroll, behind only the Yankees and Red Sox.

New owner Arte Moreno says he'll lose $15-$20 million this year, but break even in 2005. He expects revenues to rise from $120 million in 2003 to $140 million in 2004, $155 million in 2005, and predicts the club's player payroll will fall by $10-$15 million next year when $30 million worth of contracts (Kevin Appier, Aaron Sele, Troy Percival and Ramon Ortiz) come off the Angels' books.

Now the source is something called "Doug's business of baseball weblog", but assuming that he's not making up the quote from the Times, the plan still stands to cut payroll by 15-20mil next year. It's also interesting that despite winning the WS AND making a big splash, the Angels are supposedly losing $$$ (and I'm not trying to get into a debate on whether teams really lose money or not).

But to the main point: Once again it appears that a new owner has come in, made a big splash with payroll & FA signings, and then cut back in a year or 2. Now I don't think that the Angels are going to miss any of the guys they'll lose, but assuming that the $15mil savings from the guys they'll let go go primarily towards year over year salary increases for Colon, Vlady, Erstad, & arb raises for K-Rod and other younger players, it looks like they will let some good players go like Guillen, Glaus, etc.

Kadafi311
07-22-2004, 12:39 PM
Oh, so signing the #1 hitting and #1 pitching free agents in the offseason is spending like a foolish moron? It's not his fault that Colon hasn't lived up to expectations - his track record has not indicated anything like this - he might even be injured. And as for Guererro - what isn't the guy doing? He can't pitch too.

Oh, and as for whoever posted that they're cutting payroll or raising prices, they're not. Nothing's been announced, and if the Angels draw 3 mil (which it's pretty likely they will), I imagine they'll be buyers again next offseason. As a season ticketholder, I hope so.I agree with everything you said here, aside from the cutting payroll part. Every indication from Moreno is that he does plan on cutting payroll next season. The guy has done a brilliant job this year... fills seats (every game I've been to has been sold out), lowered beer and overall concession costs, and raised payroll - you can't ask for much more in one season.

And on a side note, see you September 10-12... Section 220, club level, behind home plate :D:

Go Sox!

samram
07-22-2004, 12:39 PM
A quick Google search turned up this 2dhand review of an LA Times article in April:


Now the source is something called "Doug's business of baseball weblog", but assuming that he's not making up the quote from the Times, the plan still stands to cut payroll by 15-20mil next year. It's also interesting that despite winning the WS AND making a big splash, the Angels are supposedly losing $$$ (and I'm not trying to get into a debate on whether teams really lose money or not).

But to the main point: Once again it appears that a new owner has come in, made a big splash with payroll & FA signings, and then cut back in a year or 2. Now I don't think that the Angels are going to miss any of the guys they'll lose, but assuming that the $15mil savings from the guys they'll let go go primarily towards year over year salary increases for Colon, Vlady, Erstad, & arb raises for K-Rod and other younger players, it looks like they will let some good players go like Guillen, Glaus, etc.
The good thing for them is they have prospects like MacPherson and Mathis to pick up some slack. However, I would also think Salmon is gone after this year.

gosox41
07-22-2004, 01:35 PM
Bob:

In just one off season Arte Moreno generated more positive publicity, sold more tickets and put the Angels in the 'driver's seat' according to everyone who covers baseball in Southern California.

That's in one off season.

Now contrast that to the 23 years of Uncle Jerry's stewardship.

Are the Sox in the 'driver's seat' for Chicago baseball supremacy? How many season ticket holders do the Sox have? Is the Sox market share bigger or smaller now from when he took over. Hell the man gave the Cubs their biggest drawing card that brought them back from the brink in Harry Caray (or don't you remember when the upper deck was closed for lack of fans...)

Feel free to defend Sox ownership, that's your right, but you are in the minority. Most Sox 'fans' have a hard time defending a multimillionair owner who still hasn't made even one World Series appearance.

Lip
Moreno may have created a lot of positive publicity in one year but how much of that is going away when he raises ticket prices and cuts payroll? At least JR raised his payroll 20% from last year when he raised ticket prices.

My point is that making money as a baseball owner isn't as easy as some thing. It's not the cash cow everyone seems to think it is.

Sure JR has had his moments, but when he first got here he made a splash by stealing Fisk and Luzinski. A few years later he got Seaver. In the last 2 seasons he has given his GM the go ahead to add talent for a pennant push. Last year a serious argument could have been made for dumping payroll. This year JR has authorized $5 mill-$10 mill more to go for a pennant (according to reports).

Things are changing on the southside. I know you don't live in the area, but there is starting to be a positive buzz around this team.

JR isn't as evil as you think he is and Moreno isn't the saint you think he is. If you want to break it down into further logic, JR is a multi millionaire. Moreno is a multi-billionaire. So based on your logic of moral obligations he should shell out even more money then JR to win because he can afford more.


Bob

DC Sox Fan
07-22-2004, 01:55 PM
And Mark Cuban is a joke ala Dan Snyder. Neither's won a thing, and the Sox have been as consistently successful as their teams have given the differences in the sports
24 that's a low blow to us Skins fans. :angry:

Jerry's been more succesfull than the Danny actually as we haven't done jack in the past 5 years and have been lucky to get to .500

Joe will turn all that around this year though:wink:

Man whoever wrote about this threadjacking was dead on... lol.

nasox
07-22-2004, 03:00 PM
Who knows? It doesn't matter. Lip is busy ripping on JR again. :hijacked:

Yes, once again a dead horse is mashed to pulp....

http://www.frontline-figures.com/crimeanb/light/pao9.gif

VaSoxfan
07-22-2004, 03:08 PM
24 that's a low blow to us Skins fans. :angry:

Jerry's been more succesfull than the Danny actually as we haven't done jack in the past 5 years and have been lucky to get to .500

Joe will turn all that around this year though:wink:

Man whoever wrote about this threadjacking was dead on... lol.


I don't mind Danny boy as much as some others...at least he's wanted the team to win...I wish he had left some decisions in the past to more knowledgeable people and the Spurrier decision was a bonehead move...but this year he finally made a right one in getting Gibbs..and letting Gibbs hire an excellent staff and make the key decisions. I hope Danny sits back and lets him work now.

jabrch
07-22-2004, 03:17 PM
If Carlos is truely injured, "the sky is falling" is an understatement. That's a season-ending injury for this team.
About two months ago people wouldn't stop bitching about how he was overpaid and we needed to get rid of him.

jabrch
07-22-2004, 03:19 PM
Now contrast that to the 23 years of Uncle Jerry's stewardship.

This again Lip?

Dadawg_77
07-22-2004, 03:20 PM
A quick Google search turned up this 2dhand review of an LA Times article in April:


Now the source is something called "Doug's business of baseball weblog", but assuming that he's not making up the quote from the Times, the plan still stands to cut payroll by 15-20mil next year. It's also interesting that despite winning the WS AND making a big splash, the Angels are supposedly losing $$$ (and I'm not trying to get into a debate on whether teams really lose money or not).

But to the main point: Once again it appears that a new owner has come in, made a big splash with payroll & FA signings, and then cut back in a year or 2. Now I don't think that the Angels are going to miss any of the guys they'll lose, but assuming that the $15mil savings from the guys they'll let go go primarily towards year over year salary increases for Colon, Vlady, Erstad, & arb raises for K-Rod and other younger players, it looks like they will let some good players go like Guillen, Glaus, etc.
Doug's business of baseball weblog was done by the late Doug Pappas and is an extremely creditable source. Pappas was one of the more renown and creditable source of the business side of baseball.

Flight #24
07-22-2004, 04:14 PM
Doug's business of baseball weblog was done by the late Doug Pappas and is an extremely creditable source. Pappas was one of the more renown and creditable source of the business side of baseball.
Good to know. I knew of Doug Pappas, but didn't stay with the site long enough to realize that he was the "Doug" involved.

Lip Man 1
07-22-2004, 04:48 PM
Gang:

I didn't start it but when people start saying how great of an owner Uncle Jerry is you damn well know I'm going to step in.

I don't particularly care for 'revisionist' history.

When Uncle Jerry gets his team in the World Series I'll conceed the argument.

and to those you say Mark Cuban isn't a good owner...check out the Mavericks before he took over the club and compare it to now. That's a damn good owner, anybody who could revive that mordibund franchise.

Lip

Nellie_Fox
07-22-2004, 07:14 PM
Gang:

I didn't start it but when people start saying how great of an owner Uncle Jerry is you damn well know I'm going to step in. I just went back and re-read, thinking I had maybe lost my mind. I hadn't

All fquaye said was that Reinsdorf wasn't the worst owner in baseball, and that no owner was perfect, I think Reinsdorf isn't doing a horrible job. Shock!

But seriously, payroll additions for the sake of payroll isn't good baseball. Reinsdorf's caution with signing pitchers has been well-founded.

Also, I think Reinsdorf has shown he's willing to add payroll at times.

Yes he's made some mistakes, put his foot in his mouth, alienated fans, but what owner's perfect? No, I don't hate Reinsdorf. Maybe I'm the only Sox fan who feels this way.and in you jumped. Nowhere did he say that "Uncle Jerry" was a great owner. It just that you can't stand anyone even being even mildly supportive of Reinsdorf.

gosox41
07-23-2004, 07:40 AM
Gang:

I didn't start it but when people start saying how great of an owner Uncle Jerry is you damn well know I'm going to step in.

I don't particularly care for 'revisionist' history.

When Uncle Jerry gets his team in the World Series I'll conceed the argument.

and to those you say Mark Cuban isn't a good owner...check out the Mavericks before he took over the club and compare it to now. That's a damn good owner, anybody who could revive that mordibund franchise.

Lip
Judging an owner by making a WS is hardly the only (or best) way to judge them. It's about making the effort. And yes baseball is still a business and as much as people that don't have JR's money would like to see him throw it around like there is no tomorrow he is not obligated to do so. He is obligated, however, to spend what he has from the fans that support the team. But there is no moral obligation for him to go into debt to make his critics happy.


Bob