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View Full Version : Sad fact: Maggs vs. Everett


Aidan
07-21-2004, 08:25 AM
2003 Numbers:

Maggs (160 games played)
.317 AVG
.380 OBP
.546 SLG
29 HR
99 RBI
9 SB
57 BB
73 SO

Crazy Carl (147 games played)
.287 AVG
.366 OBP
.510 SLG
28 HR
92 RBI
8 SB
53 BB
84 SO

Now, I know Maggs is younger and better than Everett but this is an interesting comparison. Maggs still gets more hits but the other numbers are fairly similar. Similar power numbers, stolen bases, and walks-to-strikeouts ratio. Maggs is at the prime of his career and Everett is 3 years older. Everett also played in 13 less games last season. Had Everett played those extra 13 games, he could have topped Maggs in home runs and RBIs. Carl Everett will be under contract with us for only $4.5 million dollars next season yet Magglio wants $14 million a year. He better start putting up Vlad-type numbers if he wants to cash in like that because the older Crazy Carl has shown that he can perform on Magg's level.

34 Inch Stick
07-21-2004, 08:39 AM
With Everett and Thomas likely renewing options for next year I think the possibility of signing Maggs is getting smaller and smaller. KW was definitely thinking long term when he trades for Everett. He is not going to pay 4.5 million for a backup.

Aidan
07-21-2004, 08:50 AM
With Everett and Thomas likely renewing options for next year I think the possibility of signing Maggs is getting smaller and smaller. KW was definitely thinking long term when he trades for Everett. He is not going to pay 4.5 million for a backup.Agreed. $4.5 million is too expensive for a backup right fielder but it's a great deal for a starting right fielder. The Scrubbies are paying Alou $9.5 million this season and he has an $11.5 million option for next season. Alou is 38 and Everett is only 33. Everett should be considered a bargain at that price. Everett is definately no Maggs but he's a decent start at a replacement.

jabrch
07-21-2004, 08:58 AM
At this point, after seeing Carl back on the team, I am more incliined to let Magglio go than before. If 4/52-56 with a performance based option for the 5th isn't enough for Magglio, he can take his performance elsewhere. Carl will cost significantly less, and will produce only slightly less, in addition to being a switch hitter in the middle of the order. The 10mm we are saving can be used to go out and get another front of the rotation calibre starter (Clement or someone of his ilk?), and to shore up the bullpen.


I'll miss Magglio - but he is doing this to himself by not taking what is rumored to be a Garrett Anderson type deal.

Aidan
07-21-2004, 09:02 AM
At this point, after seeing Carl back on the team, I am more incliined to let Magglio go than before. If 4/52-56 with a performance based option for the 5th isn't enough for Magglio, he can take his performance elsewhere. Carl will cost significantly less, and will produce only slightly less, in addition to being a switch hitter in the middle of the order. The 10mm we are saving can be used to go out and get another front of the rotation calibre starter (Clement or someone of his ilk?), and to shore up the bullpen.


I'll miss Magglio - but he is doing this to himself by not taking what is rumored to be a Garrett Anderson type deal.I just wish Reinsdorf would have nutted up and gave Vlad the deal Maggs wants now, this past off-season. That way we would've had Vlad in RF tearing it up and we could've traded Maggs for whatever we needed before the deadline (pitching, a catcher, basically whatever we wanted). :whiner:

SoxxoS
07-21-2004, 09:50 AM
Great post, Aiden. I didn't know the comparisons were so similar.

It is obvious that Maggs is in his prime and Carl is starting the downward trend...HOWEVER...Maggs isn't going to turn into Vlad overnight, and Everett isn't going to turn into the Choice. That being said, the difference in production is DEFINITELY NOT worth 8-10 million. It's barely worth 2.

calderon
07-21-2004, 09:57 AM
I only hope that we use the money they would pay maggs to upgarde the pitching and the infield. (3B/2B/SS)

Blob
07-21-2004, 10:00 AM
2003 Numbers:

Maggs (160 games played)
.317 AVG
.380 OBP
.546 SLG
29 HR
99 RBI
9 SB
57 BB
73 SO

Crazy Carl (147 games played)
.287 AVG
.366 OBP
.510 SLG
28 HR
92 RBI
8 SB
53 BB
84 SO

Now, I know Maggs is younger and better than Everett but this is an interesting comparison. Maggs still gets more hits but the other numbers are fairly similar. Similar power numbers, stolen bases, and walks-to-strikeouts ratio. Maggs is at the prime of his career and Everett is 3 years older. Everett also played in 13 less games last season. Had Everett played those extra 13 games, he could have topped Maggs in home runs and RBIs. Carl Everett will be under contract with us for only $4.5 million dollars next season yet Magglio wants $14 million a year. He better start putting up Vlad-type numbers if he wants to cash in like that because the older Crazy Carl has shown that he can perform on Magg's level.
Very well put. Nice job.

Win1ForMe
07-21-2004, 10:04 AM
The 10mm we are saving can be used to go out and get another front of the rotation calibre starter (Clement or someone of his ilk?), and to shore up the bullpen.
We already spent that money on Freddy.

jabrch
07-21-2004, 10:17 AM
We already spent that money on Freddy.
Then what money are you thinking we are offering Magglio?

It is my belief that if Magglio were to sign, we would not have to dump anyone to fit him into next year's payroll, even after signing Garcia. I don't care how you bucket it - but if Magglio doesn't take the 12-14mm he is being offered, it looks like that's more money to spend elsewhere.

Iguana775
07-21-2004, 10:17 AM
2003 Numbers:

Maggs (160 games played)
.317 AVG
.380 OBP
.546 SLG
29 HR
99 RBI
9 SB
57 BB
73 SO

Crazy Carl (147 games played)
.287 AVG
.366 OBP
.510 SLG
28 HR
92 RBI
8 SB
53 BB
84 SO

Now, I know Maggs is younger and better than Everett but this is an interesting comparison. Maggs still gets more hits but the other numbers are fairly similar. Similar power numbers, stolen bases, and walks-to-strikeouts ratio. Maggs is at the prime of his career and Everett is 3 years older. Everett also played in 13 less games last season. Had Everett played those extra 13 games, he could have topped Maggs in home runs and RBIs. Carl Everett will be under contract with us for only $4.5 million dollars next season yet Magglio wants $14 million a year. He better start putting up Vlad-type numbers if he wants to cash in like that because the older Crazy Carl has shown that he can perform on Magg's level.
Jason Kendell, report to the Sox club house.....

jabrch
07-21-2004, 10:18 AM
We already spent that money on Freddy.
and if that is the case - it was a better use of money.

Garcia + Crazy Carl > Rauch and Magglio

Iguana775
07-21-2004, 10:20 AM
and if that is the case - it was a better use of money.

Garcia + Crazy Carl > Rauch and Magglio
I'll take that any day.

:dtroll:

MisterB
07-21-2004, 10:39 AM
2003 Numbers:
Note: 2003 was Magglio's worst season out of the last 5 and Carl's best out of his last 3.

Average per season 2001-2003

Magglio : .314/.381/.558, 33 hr, 116 rbi, 60 bb, 71 k, 13 sb
Carl: .272/.344/.467, 20 hr, 71 rbi, 38 bb, 88 k, 6 sb

Win1ForMe
07-21-2004, 10:48 AM
Then what money are you thinking we are offering Magglio?

It is my belief that if Magglio were to sign, we would not have to dump anyone to fit him into next year's payroll, even after signing Garcia. I don't care how you bucket it - but if Magglio doesn't take the 12-14mm he is being offered, it looks like that's more money to spend elsewhere.
Well if you think they're going to spend elsewhere, then you also must think they'll raise payroll by another $10 M. I don't subscribe to that theory.

CubsSuckMySox182
07-21-2004, 10:49 AM
I'll miss Magglio - but he is doing this to himself by not taking what is rumored to be a Garrett Anderson type deal. <--Good call jabrch. I definitely agree. Maggs is one of my all time favorite players, but enough is enough. Personally, I'd rather get rid of Frank and keep Maggs, but I know that is not even a possibility. Maggs is worth way more and is a much better team player than Thomas will ever be. Everett is a good, solid player, though. Hopefully he will come through for the Sox when we need him.

batmanZoSo
07-21-2004, 11:07 AM
With Everett and Thomas likely renewing options for next year I think the possibility of signing Maggs is getting smaller and smaller. KW was definitely thinking long term when he trades for Everett. He is not going to pay 4.5 million (http://www.adsrve.com/linkredirect.php?h=528,28180399,whitesoxinteractiv e.com,0) for a backup.
Magglio is garbage right now. He's totally out of whack. Every time I see him bat he's about half an hour late on a fastball. And when did Everett become so awful in the field that we have to sit him in favor of an injured Ordonez who, naturally tweaked his knee after one game in right.

This team's becoming a mess. We have nothing at catcher, nothing in center, doubts in right field (Magglio being gone, Everett sticking around), Thomas being 37 next year and can't seem to stay healthy anymore. Loaiza dropping to 4th starter material and Garland not ascending to 3rd yet. Basically we have two dependable starters in a playoff game. And Buehrle get's shelled every fourth start. He has those games where everything is down the middle and it's just hit after hit after hit.

Borchard is terrible, he's clueless at the plate. I don't see how this guy ever got anyone's hopes up. To quote a great rap song, don't believe the hype.

jabrch
07-21-2004, 11:22 AM
Magglio is garbage right now. He's totally out of whack. Every time I see him bat he's about half an hour late on a fastball. And when did Everett become so awful in the field that we have to sit him in favor of an injured Ordonez who, naturally tweaked his knee after one game in right.

This team's becoming a mess. We have nothing at catcher, nothing in center, doubts in right field (Magglio being gone, Everett sticking around), Thomas being 37 next year and can't seem to stay healthy anymore. Loaiza dropping to 4th starter material and Garland not ascending to 3rd yet. Basically we have two dependable starters in a playoff game. And Buehrle get's shelled every fourth start. He has those games where everything is down the middle and it's just hit after hit after hit.

Borchard is terrible, he's clueless at the plate. I don't see how this guy ever got anyone's hopes up. To quote a great rap song, don't believe the hype.
:chickenlittle


psssst...we are 1/2 game out of first place!

bartmanisgod
07-21-2004, 11:27 AM
Personally, I'd rather get rid of Frank and keep Maggs, but I know that is not even a possibility. Maggs is worth way more and is a much better team player than Thomas will ever be.
Are you nuts? Frank Thomas could be the greatest hitter this organization has ever seen! Even though Frank is old he is still a much better hitter than Maggs (and at a much cheaper price tag) Maggs has feasted on batting behind Frank for the past five years! Don't get me wrong Maggs is an unbelievable player, but no way in hell would I ever let our franchise player go! The only bad seasons frank had were the season he hurt himself badly and the season after that during his recovery! He is a first ballot hall of famer and deserves to go in silver and black! We can obviously see how this offense has faired without Frank in the lineup... from the Cubs series till now we are 6-9 and three of our wins were against the lowly Mariners were we could afford to play awful baseball and still win!

WSox8404
07-21-2004, 11:31 AM
Are you nuts? Frank Thomas could be the greatest hitter this organization has ever seen! Even though Frank is old he is still a much better hitter than Maggs (and at a much cheaper price tag) Maggs has feasted on batting behind Frank for the past five years! Don't get me wrong Maggs is an unbelievable player, but no way in hell would I ever let our franchise player go! The only bad seasons frank had were the season he hurt himself badly and the season after that during his recovery! He is a first ballot hall of famer and deserves to go in silver and black! We can obviously see how this offense has faired without Frank in the lineup... from the Cubs series till now we are 6-9 and three of our wins were against the lowly Mariners were we could afford to play awful baseball and still win!
Well Mags is a better hitter, but I agree. Keep Frank instead of Mags. He is much cheaper and with the money we save we can get one or two other players to help us out.

Flight #24
07-21-2004, 11:58 AM
Well if you think they're going to spend elsewhere, then you also must think they'll raise payroll by another $10 M. I don't subscribe to that theory.
Got any kind of reasoning behind that claim? History has shown attendance to be a leading indicator of payroll. So with a pretty solid boost in attendance this year and playoff games/revenues, there's every reason to believe that next year's payroll will go up $5-10mil.

If it's the old refrain "JR is cheap, so payroll wo't go up", that's been shown not to be the case. What IS the case is that he wont spend in hopes of fans coming out but he will direct revenue increases to the on-field product.

A simple estimate: if we increase by 200k fans (and at the break it was already like 120k increase over last year), since the costs don't really go up, if you assume an avg ticket price of $20/game and $10-15 in average concessions you have each fan being worth $30-35/game. 200,000 x $30-$35 = $6m-$7m in additional profit. Now factor in some playoff games, and the fact that I think 200k is a conservative increase in attendnce, and a $10mil increase is highly doable.

the_valenstache
07-21-2004, 12:20 PM
Note: 2003 was Magglio's worst season out of the last 5 and Carl's best out of his last 3.

Average per season 2001-2003

Magglio : .314/.381/.558, 33 hr, 116 rbi, 60 bb, 71 k, 13 sb
Carl: .272/.344/.467, 20 hr, 71 rbi, 38 bb, 88 k, 6 sb

These are the numbers that don't exactly have me packing Maggs' bags.

hold2dibber
07-21-2004, 12:25 PM
Note: 2003 was Magglio's worst season out of the last 5 and Carl's best out of his last 3.

Average per season 2001-2003

Magglio : .314/.381/.558, 33 hr, 116 rbi, 60 bb, 71 k, 13 sb
Carl: .272/.344/.467, 20 hr, 71 rbi, 38 bb, 88 k, 6 sb
Well, '03 was Maggs' worst season until this one. Don't get me wrong, I'd much rather have Maggs than Everett. But I'd much have Everett plus Pavano or Clement than just Maggs.

Irishlawyer
07-21-2004, 12:31 PM
I only hope that we use the money they would pay maggs to upgarde the pitching and the infield. (3B/2B/SS)
It is more (much more) likely that Jerry will put the 10M in his pocket. KW started the season OVERbudget, not at budget.

Flight #24
07-21-2004, 01:14 PM
It is more (much more) likely that Jerry will put the 10M in his pocket. KW started the season OVERbudget, not at budget.
Except that there's been a pretty sizable bump in attendance that figures to continue. A few games pefore the break we were already 120k over last year at the same time, so 200-250k is not unreasonable for a total attendance bump, plus some playoff revenues. We were only 3-5mil high this year, so it's still feasible that the likely $10mil revenue increase will translate into payroll. History has shown that that's the MO of ownership.

maurice
07-21-2004, 01:32 PM
Note: 2003 was Magglio's worst season out of the last 5 and Carl's best out of his last 3.
Either way, Maggs is not three times better than Everett, though he figures to be paid three times more in 2005.

Letting Maggs go and wisely spending the money elsewhere (SS? SP?) is a reasonable strategic decision. Letting Maggs go and sticking the $14 / year in ownership's pockets, OTOH, is sickening.

34 Inch Stick
07-21-2004, 01:38 PM
These are the numbers that don't exactly have me packing Maggs' bags.
I will never pack Maggs bags. He is one of those special players that comes along once in a long while who should be on the same team his entire career.

That said EVERY indication that is coming out is that Maggs is already gone. It is smart of KW to recognize the likely outcome and plan for the future accordingly. Basically the lineup you see out there today is the lineup you will see out there next year (except Frank will be the DH instead of Maggs). I think more payroll will be spent on starting and relief pitching next year.

pearso66
07-21-2004, 02:39 PM
Maggs may be one of those special players that come around every once in a while, but he is no where as good as Thomas was in his prime. Had they both been injury free this year, I'd even say Thomas is still better than him. I think all those years of saying Maggs is underrated, eventually made him overrated. If Maggs won't sign an Anderson type deal, I'll be more than happy watching him walk out of here.

OEO Magglio
07-21-2004, 03:17 PM
I'll take carl and 10 extra million to go and try to sign some pitching over maggs.

fquaye149
07-21-2004, 03:55 PM
Note: 2003 was Magglio's worst season out of the last 5 and Carl's best out of his last 3.

Average per season 2001-2003

Magglio : .314/.381/.558, 33 hr, 116 rbi, 60 bb, 71 k, 13 sb
Carl: .272/.344/.467, 20 hr, 71 rbi, 38 bb, 88 k, 6 sb
well put. the stats in the first post brought memories of mark twain

LongLiveFisk
07-21-2004, 04:00 PM
Well, '03 was Maggs' worst season until this one. Don't get me wrong, I'd much rather have Maggs than Everett. But I'd much have Everett plus Pavano or Clement than just Maggs.
Speaking of Clement, what is the status of his contract? Is he in the final year? The man has an era in the 2's and something like a 7-9 record. Pathetic! I know the Sox have their share of power outages offensively but I like to think he would fare a lot better on the south side.

gobears1987
07-21-2004, 04:45 PM
If Crazy Carl keeps putting these numbers up, then Maggs will have to lower his price. I'm not worried about losing him seeing that Carl can do the same job cheaper and allow us to get some more pitching.

gobears1987
07-21-2004, 04:46 PM
Speaking of Clement, what is the status of his contract? Is he in the final year? The man has an era in the 2's and something like a 7-9 record. Pathetic! I know the Sox have their share of power outages offensively but I like to think he would fare a lot better on the south side.
It would be like the whole thing with Freddy having a 4-7 record in SEattle due to no run support, Clement will hate being on that team and may skip south 8.1 miles

OEO Magglio
07-21-2004, 04:58 PM
It would be like the whole thing with Freddy having a 4-7 record in SEattle due to no run support, Clement will hate being on that team and may skip south 8.1 miles
I'm not very convinced of clement he had a very good year two years ago, was average last year, is having a good year this year, he's very inconsistant throughout his career, I'd rather the sox go after odalis perez or carl pavano.