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View Full Version : What would you give up for Jason Kendall?


HomerCoach
07-20-2004, 04:07 PM
I know many of you don't want to see another thread pertaining to a trade that has not been mentioned by a credible source, but it seems as though WSI is becoming credible. :?:
I love Jason Kendall and he would fit like a glove on the team. A leadoff man that consistantly hits over .300 and an everyday catcher (with speed). I know he has an $8 million contract this year (probably less than $4 million remaining?), but it's worth the money.
Back to my original question, what would you give up for Kendall?

TomParrish79
07-20-2004, 04:11 PM
He's hitting .309 with 2 hrs and 50 runs scored.

If we cant get him for some prospects, and the Pirates pay most of his salary then we dont need to go after him.

I really dont understand the fascination with Kendal for everyone, I know we need a catcher, but everyone makes this guy out like he is Pudge Rodriguez when he is really just an average player.

Maybe I am missing something. Someone explain it to me.

HomerCoach
07-20-2004, 04:14 PM
He's hitting .309 with 2 hrs and 50 runs scored.

If we cant get him for some prospects, and the Pirates pay most of his salary then we dont need to go after him.

I really dont understand the fascination with Kendal for everyone, I know we need a catcher, but everyone makes this guy out like he is Pudge Rodriguez when he is really just an average player.

Maybe I am missing something
Since when is .309 average? Our offense is A LOT more dangerous when it has people on base for Mags, Carlos, Carl, PK, and Frank. How good was our offense when Uribe and Harris were over .300?

bobj4400
07-20-2004, 04:18 PM
He's hitting .309 with 2 hrs and 50 runs scored.

If we cant get him for some prospects, and the Pirates pay most of his salary then we dont need to go after him.

I really dont understand the fascination with Kendal for everyone, I know we need a catcher, but everyone makes this guy out like he is Pudge Rodriguez when he is really just an average player.

Maybe I am missing something. Someone explain it to me.
With a +.300 average, he immediately becomes the best hitter (in terms of average) on the team...

Aidan
07-20-2004, 04:25 PM
He's hitting .309 with 2 hrs and 50 runs scored.

If we cant get him for some prospects, and the Pirates pay most of his salary then we dont need to go after him.

I really dont understand the fascination with Kendal for everyone, I know we need a catcher, but everyone makes this guy out like he is Pudge Rodriguez when he is really just an average player.

Maybe I am missing something. Someone explain it to me.Who cares if he doesn't hit home runs? That's not what he's good at. He's a great leadoff man with a .390 OBP. He's an average catcher with decent speed. He would be good as our #1 or #2 hitter.

TomParrish79
07-20-2004, 04:29 PM
I didnt say anything about him not hitting alot of homeruns.

doublem23
07-20-2004, 04:31 PM
Remember April of 2001 when we had table-setters getting on base at about a .400 clip? That's what Kendall would bring to this offense and that's why he would be an unbelievable addition to this club. A consistent bat at the top of the order that gets on base at a rate he does is exactly what this offense needs.

E Coast Sox Fan
07-20-2004, 04:42 PM
I would give up Ben Davis or Jaime Burke and Kelly Wunsch.

HomerCoach
07-20-2004, 04:51 PM
I would give up Ben Davis or Jaime Burke and Kelly Wunsch.
Burke and Diaz was my initial thinking.

jabrch
07-20-2004, 04:57 PM
As long as Pitt picks up half of Kendall's deal, I'll give them whatever they want.

munchman33
07-20-2004, 05:26 PM
I'll tell you what I'm not willing to give up. $40 million in financial flexibility.

CWSGuy406
07-20-2004, 05:35 PM
I would give up Ben Davis or Jaime Burke and Kelly Wunsch.
I remember someone saying this earlier in the season when we were discussing trades. This isn't MVP Baseball 2005. You can't trade a whole lot of crap, for one good thing. Who, in the right mind, would take Ben Davis/Jamie Burke and Kelly Wunsch for Jason Kendall? Give them a pitching prospect (Munoz) and a lower level prospect, and have them eat a lot of the salary. I'm not saying that trade would get it done, but I'm almost positive we won't be able to get Kendall for Burke and Wunsch.

benjamin
07-20-2004, 06:38 PM
Can we please stop with this borderline hypnotic fascination with Jason Kendall long enough to understand that the guy is slugging a putrid .377 over the last four seasons and is still owed $24.5 million over the next three years???? :?:

Before going overboard with the idea that Kendall will bring an on-base machine to this team in the short-term (a fact I won't openly dispute), realize that he is also a 30-year-old catcher that has logged over 1,100 career games behind the plate whom is due $24.5 million over the next three seasons.

Trading for Kendall now (while obviously being an upgrade over the three-head monster in charge of the job now) may do a fair-to-decent amount of good in the short-term, but:

Do you really want to see this team hamstrung by having to pay a 33-year-old catcher $12.5 million three years from now?

There are FAR better uses for those funds.

Greg Zaun and his rather sweet OBP (.392 to Kendall's .390) would come much cheaper while also not adding an albatross of a contract onto the books in the process.

Rudy Law
07-20-2004, 07:01 PM
How about Crede and some prospects..Maybe Josh Stewart or Wunsch for Benson and Kendall...I think that trade would have to make us one of the favorites in the AL with the Yankees.....We can bat kendall 2nd and sometimes leadoff..Benson could be the "#5" and put Schoenweiss(sp) in the pen. The Pirates have said they are willing to pay some of Kendall's salary......Then we can send Mike Jackson to Neverland..What do you guys think?

doublem23
07-20-2004, 07:16 PM
If you can get the Pirates to give us Benson and Kendall for Crede, Stewart, and Wunsch, you have a long history as a GM ahead of you.

Rudy Law
07-20-2004, 07:57 PM
If you can get the Pirates to give us Benson and Kendall for Crede, Stewart, and Wunsch, you have a long history as a GM ahead of you.
I didn't mean exactly those guys...But along those lines.....Crede and some prospects...Im sure it would cost more then that..I was just throwing names out.....I know they wouldn't do that deal...Its just a framework for a deal......The Pirates want young players.....

Harris=God
07-20-2004, 11:34 PM
davis and uribe

Aidan
07-21-2004, 12:57 AM
If you can get the Pirates to give us Benson and Kendall for Crede, Stewart, and Wunsch, you have a long history as a GM ahead of you.HAHA!!! Rudy Law thinks that you can dump garbage and get good players in return.
davis and uribeDamn, what is it with you people. You can't dump garbage like Ben Davis onto a team for a good starting pitcher like Benson. The Pirates may have some desire for Uribe though.

The Pirates want a major league-ready position player AND a top prospect for just Kris Benson...

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=1842190

They want this much because they were absolutely screwed by the Cubs in the Aramis Ramirez trade last season. Benson would probably cost us Joe Crede and Brian Anderson. Joe Crede would replace Aramis Ramirez, whom they know they should have kept. They would probably throw Kendall in with Benson because they want to dump his contract badly.

ClaudelSleptHere
07-21-2004, 01:02 AM
I would give up Ben Davis or Jaime Burke and Kelly Wunsch.
I would give them up too, but who would you trade for Kendall?

bartmanisgod
07-21-2004, 01:44 AM
I would give them up too, but who would you trade for Kendall?

Crede, Diaz, Burke for Kendall and Cash

OurBitchinMinny
07-21-2004, 02:10 AM
How about Crede and some prospects..Maybe Josh Stewart or Wunsch for Benson and Kendall...I think that trade would have to make us one of the favorites in the AL with the Yankees.....We can bat kendall 2nd and sometimes leadoff..Benson could be the "#5" and put Schoenweiss(sp) in the pen. The Pirates have said they are willing to pay some of Kendall's salary......Then we can send Mike Jackson to Neverland..What do you guys think?
Sounds good. Id like to do it w/o crede if possible though. And benson would become the #3 IMO. Loaiza and garland can fight over 4 and 5.

Aidan
07-21-2004, 02:23 AM
Crede, Diaz, Burke for Kendall and CashThat is probably TOO much for Kendall. Keep in mind that the Pirates wanted to dump Kendall's contract so bad last season that they offered to throw him in the Brian Giles trade with the Padres WHILE offering to pay a portion of Kendall's contract...

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=1603146

If we were to trade for Kendall, it would all depend on how much of his contract we are willing to pick up. If we picked up most of his contract, the Pirates would only expect a lower-tier prospect(s). They would just be happy to dump Kendall's salary. If we asked Pittsburgh to pick up a good portion of his contract, it would cost us a better prospect(s). This is similar to why Montreal sent us $800,000 toward Carl Everett's contract. Kenny Williams wanted Montreal to cover most of Everett's contract so he could pursue other trades but in return he had to send Montreal Jon Rauch to make up for that money. Now, if we were to ask the Pirates for Benson AND Kendall it would probably cost us Crede, Brian Anderson, and Diaz. The Pirates probably will demand a major league-ready position player (Crede) AND a top prospect (Brian Anderson) for Kris Benson alone...

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=1842190

Diaz would be a throw in to get Kendall as well.

Even with his struggling bat, can we afford to lose Crede's glove at 3B? Uribe would have to be moved to 3B and Willie would have to start at 2B full-time. While Harris can get the job done at 2B and hopefully continue to get on base could Uribe handle 3B every day? Uribe has only played 9 games in his career at 3B and that's with the Sox this season. In these 9 games played at 3B he has 1 error. The sample size is much too small to tell if he can get the job done, so who knows?

Our lineup would look like this:
2B Willie Harris
C Jason Kendall
RF Magglio Ordonez
LF Carlos Lee
DH Carl Everett
1B Paul Konerko
SS Jose Valentin
CF Aaron Rowand
3B Juan Uribe

That lineup looks fine to me, especially with this rotation:

Freddy Garcia
Mark Buehrle
Kris Benson
Esteban Loaiza
Jon Garland

...with Scott Schoeneweis as our lefty long reliever. Josh Fields is years away from playing 3B for us in the majors, if he even pans out. Can we live with Kendall's huge contract and losing our future at 3B in Crede? That is the question. As good of an OBP guy Kendall is, I can't see spending $11 million a year on him. That is WAY too much. Also, Benson is a free agent next season. Another words, I just don't see it happening. The best move we could make is get the much cheaper Miguel Batista just to block the Twins from getting him. :tongue:

gosox41
07-21-2004, 08:16 AM
I know many of you don't want to see another thread pertaining to a trade that has not been mentioned by a credible source, but it seems as though WSI is becoming credible. :?:
I love Jason Kendall and he would fit like a glove on the team. A leadoff man that consistantly hits over .300 and an everyday catcher (with speed). I know he has an $8 million contract this year (probably less than $4 million remaining?), but it's worth the money.
Back to my original question, what would you give up for Kendall?
Pittsbrugh wants to dump him. The more of his salary they pick up the more prospects the Sox will have to give up.

I say Pitt. eats half his contract (at least) before I'd actually start discussing a trade or him.


Bob

ma_deuce
07-21-2004, 10:57 AM
Valentin, Davis, and Borchard. I'll even throw in a bag of balls and a box of grape flavor Big League Chew.

At this point, I'd do just about anything to get Kendall or Olivo back. Sandy is falling apart and Davis is a nightmare. Burke is too green, so we need someone who can offer some squality starts for several years to come.

Deuce

Randar68
07-21-2004, 11:12 AM
He's hitting .309 with 2 hrs and 50 runs scored.

If we cant get him for some prospects, and the Pirates pay most of his salary then we dont need to go after him.

I really dont understand the fascination with Kendal for everyone, I know we need a catcher, but everyone makes this guy out like he is Pudge Rodriguez when he is really just an average player.

Maybe I am missing something. Someone explain it to me.
1) .309 would be leading this team in hitting.
2) He has a terrific OBP and is not a base-clogger
3) This team has more than enough HR/K-swingers, and not enough guys to get on base to provide a consistent attack.
4) He plays catcher, one of our biggest weaknesses.

In short, if the Pirates would eat half his contract, I'd be willing to give up my left nut for Jason Kendall. In prospects? A few mid-level prospects, maybe one higher level guy to get it done. If this attendance increase gives them the flexibility and they decide they won't resign Maggs with the Carl Everett option available, I would trade for him, ask the Pirates to eat a bit less of his salary, give up only mid-level prospects, and go for it all this year with Maggs, letting him walk at year's end.

habibharu
07-21-2004, 11:22 AM
get crede's .230 hitting ass and joe borchard outta here for kendall and some cash.

The Tom
07-21-2004, 11:27 AM
First, Kendall is just what we need in our lineup this year. He could put us over the top. We dont need a player with a good slugging percentage, we need a guy who hits for average. That said, his age and contract arent very attractive. We don't want to be another team that wins the series then goes into obscurity. I understand we should do whatever it takes to get it done this year, but Kendall doesn't put us over the top. Instead of thinking "What move can we make to win," maybe we should be putting more focus on playing better. The real problem with our team is Hurt being out. There just isn't a way to replace his bat. Once he gets back, our offense will be potent again. Then we can either put Lee in the 2-hole or move him down to bulster the hurting part of our lineup.

habibharu
07-21-2004, 11:29 AM
. We don't want to be another team that wins the series then goes into obscurity. . are you serious? i dont care what the hell happen next year if we win the series this year!! are you forgetting that we havent won since 1917?!!?!?!?

Randar68
07-21-2004, 11:30 AM
get crede's .230 hitting ass and joe borchard outta here for kendall and some cash.
:prozac

Frater Perdurabo
07-21-2004, 11:31 AM
1) .309 would be leading this team in hitting.
2) He has a terrific OBP and is not a base-clogger
3) This team has more than enough HR/K-swingers, and not enough guys to get on base to provide a consistent attack.
4) He plays catcher, one of our biggest weaknesses.

In short, if the Pirates would eat half his contract, I'd be willing to give up my left nut for Jason Kendall. In prospects? A few mid-level prospects, maybe one higher level guy to get it done. If this attendance increase gives them the flexibility and they decide they won't resign Maggs with the Carl Everett option available, I would trade for him, ask the Pirates to eat a bit less of his salary, give up only mid-level prospects, and go for it all this year with Maggs, letting him walk at year's end.

I agree completely. I volunteer my left nut as well. The Pirates can have two left nuts in addition to mid-level prospects for Kendall. (Randar, based on our shared opinions in the old PI, aren't we both "Left Nuts" ourselves?) :wink:

2004: Kendall - Valentin - Maggs - Lee - Everett - Konerko - Rowand - Crede - Uribe/Harris

In 2005, Frank replaces Maggs as the #3 hitter and Everett moves to right. If Rowand falters, Borchard should be ready, or a decent CF can be secured via free agency.

Balance, power, some speed, OBP and flexibility. :bandance:

Randar68
07-21-2004, 11:35 AM
I agree completely. I volunteer my left nut as well. The Pirates can have two left nuts in addition to mid-level prospects for Kendall. (Randar, based on our shared opinions in the old PI, aren't we both "Left Nuts" ourselves?) :wink:
:cower:

LOL!

ma-gaga
07-21-2004, 11:37 AM
Kendall owed lots of money = scrub AA pitcher
Kendall owed half his contract = Crede + scrub AA pitcher

Easy.

Frater Perdurabo
07-21-2004, 11:41 AM
First, Kendall is just what we need in our lineup this year. He could put us over the top. We dont need a player with a good slugging percentage, we need a guy who hits for average. That said, his age and contract arent very attractive. We don't want to be another team that wins the series then goes into obscurity. I understand we should do whatever it takes to get it done this year, but Kendall doesn't put us over the top. Instead of thinking "What move can we make to win," maybe we should be putting more focus on playing better. The real problem with our team is Hurt being out. There just isn't a way to replace his bat. Once he gets back, our offense will be potent again. Then we can either put Lee in the 2-hole or move him down to bulster the hurting part of our lineup.

Sure, I would love for the Sox to just start "playing better." It would be great if Uribe and Harris started hitting .300 again, Crede went back to 2003 2nd half form and clobbered 20 more homers, and Davis began hitting .400. But players are what they are. Alomar needs to be carbon-dated or have bionic legs transplanted. Otherwise he's just a player-coach who doesn't have "coach" as part of his official title. So unless Davis or Burke becomes the second coming of Carlton Fisk, catcher will be a glaring hole.

Same thing with leadoff hitter. No one on the team is capable of getting on base without a ton of strike outs or GIDPs along with it. Kendall fills TWO HOLES for this season and for the LONG TERM.

I disagree. Kendall DOES put the Sox over the top...or at least gives them a much better shot at climbing higher up the mountain.

ma_deuce
07-21-2004, 01:21 PM
Sure, I would love for the Sox to just start "playing better." It would be great if Uribe and Harris started hitting .300 again, Crede went back to 2003 2nd half form and clobbered 20 more homers, and Davis began hitting .400. But players are what they are. Alomar needs to be carbon-dated or have bionic legs transplanted. Otherwise he's just a player-coach who doesn't have "coach" as part of his official title. So unless Davis or Burke becomes the second coming of Carlton Fisk, catcher will be a glaring hole.

Same thing with leadoff hitter. No one on the team is capable of getting on base without a ton of strike outs or GIDPs along with it. Kendall fills TWO HOLES for this season and for the LONG TERM.

I disagree. Kendall DOES put the Sox over the top...or at least gives them a much better shot at climbing higher up the mountain.
:worship:

Awesome post! Couldn't have said it better myself, as I have proven time and time again in the past. :D:

Deuce

benjamin
07-21-2004, 02:07 PM
Sure, I would love for the Sox to just start "playing better." It would be great if Uribe and Harris started hitting .300 again, Crede went back to 2003 2nd half form and clobbered 20 more homers, and Davis began hitting .400. But players are what they are. Alomar needs to be carbon-dated or have bionic legs transplanted. Otherwise he's just a player-coach who doesn't have "coach" as part of his official title. So unless Davis or Burke becomes the second coming of Carlton Fisk, catcher will be a glaring hole.


Same thing with leadoff hitter. No one on the team is capable of getting on base without a ton of strike outs or GIDPs along with it. Kendall fills TWO HOLES for this season and for the LONG TERM.

I disagree. Kendall DOES put the Sox over the top...or at least gives them a much better shot at climbing higher up the mountain.
What is not being understood is that obtaining Kendall's hideous contract would insure that A) Valentin is gone next year, leaving Uribe and Harris as the default keystone connection. B) Konerko will more than likely be traded to allow us to fit within the budget for 2005. C) We will be stuck with a catcher on the wrong side of 30 who (when healthy enough to be in the lineup) will provide little more than the occassional single or walk, with no power numbers to speak of.

Far better uses for those funds. Like pitching.

Randar68
07-21-2004, 02:27 PM
What is not being understood is that obtaining Kendall's hideous contract would insure that A) Valentin is gone next year, leaving Uribe and Harris as the default keystone connection. B) Konerko will more than likely be traded to allow us to fit within the budget for 2005. C) We will be stuck with a catcher on the wrong side of 30 who (when healthy enough to be in the lineup) will provide little more than the occassional single or walk, with no power numbers to speak of.

Far better uses for those funds. Like pitching.
Would you trade Maggs for Kendall and Carl Everett?

I would. End of discussion.

JDP
07-21-2004, 02:39 PM
If the Pirates were willing to structure the rest of his contract up like the following (ala Mike Hampton and his many teams paying him the rest of his contract)...

2004: $8.0M [$5.0 Pittsburgh][$3.0 Chicago]
2005: $10.0M [$5.0 Pittsburgh][$5.0 Chicago]
2006: $11.0M [$5.0 Pittsburgh][$6.0 Chicago]
2007: $13.0M [$5.0 Pittsburgh][$7.0 Chicago]

.....then maybe acquiring Kendall for prospects would be beneficial to the White Sox organization. Otherwise, his increasing salary (starting in the double digits already in '05) would just handcuff the White Sox too much.

mrzerofan
07-21-2004, 03:43 PM
Hey, you guys thinking that Josh Fields would take over for Crede in a few years, just remember how 2 sport athletes have failed in this organazation(Joe Borchard)...

mrzerofan
07-21-2004, 03:46 PM
What is not being understood is that obtaining Kendall's hideous contract would insure that A) Valentin is gone next year, leaving Uribe and Harris as the default keystone connection. B) Konerko will more than likely be traded to allow us to fit within the budget for 2005. C) We will be stuck with a catcher on the wrong side of 30 who (when healthy enough to be in the lineup) will provide little more than the occassional single or walk, with no power numbers to speak of.

Far better uses for those funds. Like pitching.
I agree. If we do that deal that means next year we have no left handed pop exept for Everett. What we need is to forget Kendall, get Zaun, and trade Magglio for a young, power hitting left handed outfielder.

Realist
07-21-2004, 09:39 PM
First, Kendall is just what we need in our lineup this year. He could put us over the top. I understand we should do whatever it takes to get it done this year, but Kendall doesn't put us over the top.:?:

Aidan
07-21-2004, 09:52 PM
:?:LOL! :tongue:

Realist
07-21-2004, 10:01 PM
This possible line-up for the 2004 Payoffs makes me very very excited:


Harris
Kendall
Ordonez
Thomas
Lee
Konerko
Valentine
Rowand
Crede
These guys make up a pretty nice bench:

Uribe
Perez
Everett
Alomar
These would be our starting pitchers:

Garcia
Buehrle
Loaiza
Garland (?)
These relievers should be on the team:

Schoeneweis
Cotts
Politte
Marte
Takatsu
I would trade anybody else in the organization and even throw in their Aunt Helen to get this done. Outside of some right handed long relief, somebody please tell me what else would be missing to have this team be a serious threat to win the World Series?

Screw 2005 with a rolled up Chicago Cubs program. I'm tired of coming up short with the "woulda shoulda couldas".

A. Cavatica
07-21-2004, 10:08 PM
Who is Valentine?

Aidan
07-21-2004, 10:14 PM
This possible line-up for the 2004 Payoffs makes me very very excited:

Harris
Kendall
Ordonez
Thomas
Lee
Konerko
Valentine
Rowand
Crede
Agreed. But who is this Valentine? Isn't that Joe Valentine one of our old pitching prospects who we traded away? He is now on the Reds. Who do we trade for him and why is a pitcher in our starting lineup? :tongue:

A. Cavatica
07-21-2004, 10:15 PM
what else would be missing to have this team be a serious threat to win the World Series?
Harris, Crede, and Loaiza would have to play better than they have, but this team would be a contender. Mackowiak from the Pirates (along with Kendall) would displace Crede. Another reliever would help, but we ought to be able to find one in the organization. And Ozzie still needs to improve as a tactician.

Aidan
07-21-2004, 10:27 PM
Harris, Crede, and Loaiza would have to play better than they have, but this team would be a contender. Mackowiak from the Pirates (along with Kendall) would displace Crede. Another reliever would help, but we ought to be able to find one in the organization. And Ozzie still needs to improve as a tactician.The Pirates love Mackowiak. I'm not sure they would trade him. Needless to say, if they did trade him it would probably cost us Crede and Diaz for Kendall and Mackowiak.

Kris Benson had a great outing against the Braves tonight...
8 IP
5 Hits
2 ER
0 BB
4 SO

Sebastian
07-22-2004, 05:02 AM
Kris Benson puts us over the top. Kendall doesn't. Trade for Benson, NOT Kendall. Give up Crede, Arnie Munoz/Felix Diaz, and a scrubber. Uribe moves to third and Willie plays full-time. I'll take that over any scenario that comes from acquiring Kendall.

You need three starters to step it up to win in the playoffs. Garcia and Buehrle I have confidence in. Loaiza and Garland? Uh-uh. Kris Benson gives us a damn good trio. Whoever the fourth starter ends up being, expect nothing more than a Black Jack postseason from him. If a win or two comes from that spot, great. I wouldn't expect it, however. By not picking up a Kris Benson, we only have Buehrle and Garcia to really rely on. That's half our postseason starting staff that is iffy at best. Jason Kendall or not, we won't be winning more than 2 postseason games that way.

Just my opinion, of course . . .

Realist
07-22-2004, 07:13 AM
Who is Valentine?***** :D:

I had just said in chat a lil' bit before I made this post that I type "Valentine" automaticly and then I have to go back through my post and erase the friggin' "E's". I was in a hurry to get behind the bar and relieve the day girl so I didn't get a chance to to edit myself.

The upside to this this very minor mistake on my part is thus: From this point forward I will forever spell Jose Valentin's name "Valentine". If anybody feels the unrelenting urge to correct this mistake, I will have myself a little chuckle.

On behalf of all the parents that horsewhipped their children through potty training, I appologize for your continuing anal retentive approach to "speling" and poor editing. On the other hand, you do wonders to my own self-esteem. Your compulsive need to point out such minor errors do wonders to validate my own existance. I thank and pity you all.

:redneck

STILL need Kendall]

Realist
07-22-2004, 07:36 AM
Harris, Crede, and Loaiza would have to play better than they have, but this team would be a contender. Mackowiak from the Pirates (along with Kendall) would displace Crede. Another reliever would help, but we ought to be able to find one in the organization. And Ozzie still needs to improve as a tactician.I agree about Harris. He's been unbelievablely great one week, and then totally overmatched the next.

As for Crede... well... he's still got tremendous potential and he's shown the ability to be very clutch. There's not a damn thing wrong with his defense, so I'll settle for him being our number 9 hitter. Tell him to keep scooping up the ball in the field and just relax at the plate and I would not be shocked if he ended up WS MVP. I'll live with that risk for now.

Loaiza is our Zombrano. The guy has shown that he's got the stuff, but he's developed into a major head case. I think a couple of the games that he's pitched this year are even better than the outtings he put out during the "carreer year" he gave us last year. It's his confidense that seems to have diminished. I hold Coop responsible for helping him retain this confidense. When Loaiza's motion is fluid and it appears he's just flingin' the ball at home plate in spite of a batter being present, he seems to get everybody out. We need him to get back to this point. Get on it Coop!

I vote a big "YES" to the need for at least one more reliver. I have confidense that Kenny knows this too. Last year he saw it and he brought in Schoeneweis and Sullivan. Both were great moves. I expect more of the same before the Aug 1.

As for Ozzie... aww hell... we're in the American League. There isn't much "tacticianing" that Ozzie has to do until we get to The Really Big Seven Game Series Late in October. Until then, I want him to unify this team in its vision and goals. I'll bitch about his game calling during our rematch against the Reds in October. :redneck

BTW... Jose Valentine is my favorite player on the Chicago White Sox.

Realist
07-22-2004, 07:44 AM
Kris Benson puts us over the top. Kendall doesn't. Trade for Benson, NOT Kendall. Give up Crede, Arnie Munoz/Felix Diaz, and a scrubber. Uribe moves to third and Willie plays full-time. I'll take that over any scenario that comes from acquiring Kendall.


Please explain to my how Benson moves us closer to a World Series than Kendall does. Just saying it doesn't change my mind. I'm very open minded, but you gotta at least give me something.

Aidan
07-22-2004, 08:19 AM
Please explain to my how Benson moves us closer to a World Series than Kendall does. Just saying it doesn't change my mind. I'm very open minded, but you gotta at least give me something.I can answer that. A solid 4-man rotation wins playoff games, not having a good hitting catcher. Garcia and Buehrle are solid but Loaiza and Garland are too shaky to trust in big games. A rotation of Garcia, Buehrle, Benson, and (Loaiza OR Garland) would be alot more solid for the playoffs than Garcia, Buehrle, Loaiza, AND Garland.

gosox41
07-22-2004, 08:54 AM
This possible line-up for the 2004 Payoffs makes me very very excited:


Harris
Kendall
Ordonez
Thomas
Lee
Konerko
Valentine
Rowand
Crede
These guys make up a pretty nice bench:

Uribe
Perez
Everett
Alomar
These would be our starting pitchers:

Garcia
Buehrle
Loaiza
Garland (?)
These relievers should be on the team:

Schoeneweis
Cotts
Politte
Marte
Takatsu
I would trade anybody else in the organization and even throw in their Aunt Helen to get this done. Outside of some right handed long relief, somebody please tell me what else would be missing to have this team be a serious threat to win the World Series?

Screw 2005 with a rolled up Chicago Cubs program. I'm tired of coming up short with the "woulda shoulda couldas".
Not Aunt Helen!!!!!:D:

Paulwny
07-22-2004, 09:12 AM
From the NYDaily news:
(The Pirates have made no secret of the fact they would give the highest preference to any Benson bidder willing to take catcher Jason Kendall as part of the exchange. Problem is, Kendall has $34 million remaining on an egregiously escalating contract through 2007.)

MisterB
07-22-2004, 10:08 AM
I can answer that. A solid 4-man rotation wins playoff games, not having a good hitting catcher. Garcia and Buehrle are solid but Loaiza and Garland are too shaky to trust in big games. A rotation of Garcia, Buehrle, Benson, and (Loaiza OR Garland) would be alot more solid for the playoffs than Garcia, Buehrle, Loaiza, AND Garland.Looking at Benson's numbers I'd say he's not appreciably better than Garland. JG gives up a few less hits, KB walks a few less and strikes out a few more. Both have 11 quality starts out of 19. Taking into account the differences between the leagues their ERAs are roughly equal. Considering KB's spent his career with the Pirates, I doubt he's really had to pitch in many 'big games', so who's to say he's better in them? I definitely wouldn't give up a ML player and a good prospect (Pit's reported minimum opening bid) for Benson.

Realist
07-22-2004, 10:17 AM
I can answer that. A solid 4-man rotation wins playoff games, not having a good hitting catcher. Garcia and Buehrle are solid but Loaiza and Garland are too shaky to trust in big games. A rotation of Garcia, Buehrle, Benson, and (Loaiza OR Garland) would be alot more solid for the playoffs than Garcia, Buehrle, Loaiza, AND Garland.I'll give ya that Benson appears to be a slight upgrade over Loaiza's recent performances or Garland's "low point on the rollercoaster track", but I can't really get behind him whole heartedly and feel all that comfortable with him knowing that he's in the National League and there's a chance that that 4.13 era could quickly jump another half or a run a game in the AL. At that point, we have a log jam of Loaiza, Garland and Benson in the 4 spot.

If those are the kind of headaches that managers like to have, then let's do it. If he's gotta be part of any Kendall deal... well... now I humblely admit that I'm over my head when it comes to that kinda wheeling and dealing.

All I know is that my visceral reaction to seeing Kendall's name in our line-up and knowing what he can do for us gives me tremendous confidense, would give the team one hell of a boost in the arm and I'm certain would strike fear in the hearts of any team we played, even the friggin' Yankees.

I might be inclined to think that Loaiza was a "one year wonder" if I didn't see him pitch some absolutely amazing games this year. Granted there were fewer great outtings than I would like, but I believe he can still get his act together. I think Coop needs to turn his full attention on on Loaiza and Garland and Kenny needs to get on the horn for some relief help. Then again, I could be dead wrong. God, I love this game! :redneck

bobj4400
07-22-2004, 10:23 AM
Looking at Benson's numbers I'd say he's not appreciably better than Garland.

I agree, what is this infatuation with Kris Benson? Just b/c he is the best pitcher available doesn't mean he is that good. It just means there isnt much out there this year. Garland gets a bad rap on this board. I agree that sometimes he seems soft and doesnt seem to have a killer instinct, but I would rather send him to the mound then Loaiza at this point.

OEO Magglio
07-22-2004, 10:26 AM
Looking at Benson's numbers I'd say he's not appreciably better than Garland. JG gives up a few less hits, KB walks a few less and strikes out a few more. Both have 11 quality starts out of 19. Taking into account the differences between the leagues their ERAs are roughly equal. Considering KB's spent his career (http://www.adsrve.com/linkredirect.php?h=502,28012355,whitesoxinteractiv e.com,1) with the Pirates, I doubt he's really had to pitch in many 'big games', so who's to say he's better in them? I definitely wouldn't give up a ML player and a good prospect (Pit's reported minimum opening bid) for Benson.Bensons numbers don't look great right now but he's been outstanding as of late. I've heard they found a flaw in his mechanics and ever since they fixed that up Benson has been great. I'd love to get either Kendall or Benson, they'd both be great additions, I'm almost positive kenny has another move or two in him, so we'll see what happens.

HomerCoach
07-22-2004, 10:26 AM
I agree, what is this infatuation with Kris Benson?
He's the new name going around. He's mentioned as being traded and every team thinks they are getting him, besides the Expos.:D:

Randar68
07-22-2004, 10:27 AM
He's the new name going around. He's mentioned as being traded and every team thinks they are getting him, besides the Expos.:D:
Frader and I stick to our sacrifice of giving up "2 left nuts" for Jason Kendall. LOL!

HomerCoach
07-22-2004, 10:30 AM
Frader and I stick to our sacrifice of giving up "2 left nuts" for Jason Kendall. LOL!\

Nice, How about Diaz or Cotts and Crede for Kendall and Pitt paying $4 mil/year?

Randar68
07-22-2004, 10:30 AM
\

Nice, How about Diaz or Cotts and Crede for Kendall and Pitt paying $4 mil/year?
That's overpaying.

bobj4400
07-22-2004, 10:33 AM
That's overpaying.
No, that is grand theft. Pittsburgh would make that trade before Kenny got the words out of his mouth.

SoxxoS
07-22-2004, 10:37 AM
How about Mackowiak and Kendall for Crede and Diaz, and Pitt picks up 4 mill/year of Kendalls contract.

HomerCoach
07-22-2004, 10:37 AM
That's overpaying. You're not putting too much value on your "left nut" then, are you?:tongue:

HomerCoach
07-22-2004, 10:39 AM
How about Mackowiak and Kendall for Crede and Diaz, and Pitt picks up 4 mill/year of Kendalls contract. No way Mackowiac or Bay are traded out of Pittsburgh.

Hangar18
07-22-2004, 11:11 AM
Listen ......... Pittsburgh ACCEPTED GARBAGE from the cubs to let go
Ramirez, Lofton, and SIMON .. we should think the same way ......
give them Garbage and take their good players .........They dont deserve
any better

bobj4400
07-22-2004, 11:21 AM
Listen ......... Pittsburgh ACCEPTED GARBAGE from the cubs to let go
Ramirez, Lofton, and SIMON .. we should think the same way ......
give them Garbage and take their good players .........They dont deserve
any better
Problem is Littlefield got roasted b/c of that trade and it almost cost him his job. He cant let that happen again.

Flight #24
07-22-2004, 12:16 PM
From the NYDaily news:
(The Pirates have made no secret of the fact they would give the highest preference to any Benson bidder willing to take catcher Jason Kendall as part of the exchange. Problem is, Kendall has $34 million remaining on an egregiously escalating contract through 2007.)
So then the "opening bid" is an ML-ready position player, a top prospect, AND taking on some of Kendall's deal? Kind of makes what we gave up for Garcia look like a bargain.

It also makes complete sense that KW would wait until the deadline when they will likely be looking to drop Jason alone for peanuts just to get him off of their payroll.

I woldn't mind another reliever, maybe Kendall+Brian Meadows+$20mil for Munoz+Nanita+Burke? (Perez is a pipe dream, they'll get more for Benson from the Yanks than I'd want to give up, and I want NO part of Joe Table.)

Flight #24
07-22-2004, 12:17 PM
Problem is Littlefield got roasted b/c of that trade and it almost cost him his job. He cant let that happen again.
Big difference here is that Kendall's older, they have another guy who can C and hit well (Craig Wilson), and Jason's deal is a long-term millstone whereas ARam was IIRC a much smaller $$$ savings.

Frater Perdurabo
07-22-2004, 12:48 PM
For those who say that having a catcher who can hit is a luxury on a team that has other holes, I agree.

The biggest hole on this team right now is a leadoff hitter. The one thing the Sox lack most is OBP. Uribe and Harris are not producing like they did in April and May.

It just so happens that Kendall can hit .300+ and lead off! It's a bonus that he can catch!

Would I prefer, say, Carl Crawford or Juan Pierre? Sure! But the Rays or Fish would demand Mark Buehrle in return. Yes, Kendall's contract is steep. But Pittsburgh previously has expressed willingness to offer some cash to get a deal done!

Kendall seems to be available for peanuts, or just two left nuts from Randar and me. There will not be a bidding war for Kendall.

Kendall makes the Sox much stronger this year and for the future, providing a leadoff or #2 hitter who also plays a key defensive position that happens to be a gaping black hole in the Sox organization. If he starts to decline as a catcher in 2006 or 2007, he always could play a few games in left field or as a DH after 2005.

If acquiring Kendall makes re-signing Maggs impossible, so be it.

Kendall + Everett + Garcia > Maggs + Olivo + Reed.

But if the Sox make the playoffs and go deep, there will be more payroll dollars available (greater revenues this year plus 2005 advance season ticket sales), so it might actually be possible to re-sign Maggs after all even with Kendall and Everett, or make a run at another starting pitcher through free agency.

Randar68
07-22-2004, 12:58 PM
But if the Sox make the playoffs and go deep, there will be more payroll dollars available (greater revenues this year plus 2005 advance season ticket sales), so it might actually be possible to re-sign Maggs after all even with Kendall and Everett, or make a run at another starting pitcher through free agency.
That last paragraph definitely needs to be in deeppink, LOL!

Flight #24
07-22-2004, 01:11 PM
Kendall seems to be available for peanuts, or just two left nuts from Randar and me. There will not be a bidding war for Kendall.


I'd up the ante to include an NTBNL (Nut to be named later)
:)

Frater Perdurabo
07-22-2004, 01:18 PM
I'd up the ante to include an NTBNL (Nut to be named later)
:)

ROFLMAO! :bandance:

Soxzilla
07-22-2004, 01:18 PM
I say we find a way to dump magglio on the pirates.

If it helps us get benson and kendall, and moves schoe to the bullpen (Our long relief is terrible...cotts? jackson? adkins? You expect these guys to hold up in the postseason?).

If we aren't going to keep maggs for next year, lets get something for him.

I wouldn't mind having everett out in right, especially if it means we help our starting rotation, bullpen, catcher spot, leadoff spot and clears us up 10 million. Which is PRECISELY WHAT WE'D BE DOING.

TRADE MAGGS TO PITT!:bandance: :supernana:

Flight #24
07-22-2004, 01:38 PM
I say we find a way to dump magglio on the pirates.

If it helps us get benson and kendall, and moves schoe to the bullpen (Our long relief is terrible...cotts? jackson? adkins? You expect these guys to hold up in the postseason?).

If we aren't going to keep maggs for next year, lets get something for him.

I wouldn't mind having everett out in right, especially if it means we help our starting rotation, bullpen, catcher spot, leadoff spot and clears us up 10 million. Which is PRECISELY WHAT WE'D BE DOING.

TRADE MAGGS TO PITT!:bandance: :supernana:It's all about winning the WS this year. Sox+Kendall/Benson-Maggs is NOT a WS contender, especially without Frank for the season (in fact, I doubt we'd score enough runs to make the playoffs).

Now Sox+Kendall (so no Benson, but we keep Maggs) - that's a WS team unless the Spankees somehow get Randy.

Not to mention that PIT has NO interest in Maggs since they're a)not contending for squat and b)not going to resign him. All he does is add to their payroll.

Soxzilla
07-22-2004, 01:49 PM
It's all about winning the WS this year. Sox+Kendall/Benson-Maggs is NOT a WS contender, especially without Frank for the season (in fact, I doubt we'd score enough runs to make the playoffs).

Now Sox+Kendall (so no Benson, but we keep Maggs) - that's a WS team unless the Spankees somehow get Randy.

Not to mention that PIT has NO interest in Maggs since they're a)not contending for squat and b)not going to resign him. All he does is add to their payroll.
:(:

What exactly is maggs doing RIGHT NOW, that really gives him any value? I mean, we add kendall now, grab a fifth starter and dump major payroll, which we will probably lose next year.

Not too mention it means that we get to see carl bat every game in the post season. And worst case scenario, maggs tweaks his knee again and can't play ANY field, he can only dh. We won't be able to see him OR paulie (or frank) during our emminant world series showcase.

De-tri-mental.

How's bout a three way deal?

P.S.-We are gonna have to figure out how to score some runs without at least one of our big boppers in the lineup sooner or later (Aka a world series berth), no time like the present.

HomerCoach
07-29-2004, 07:21 AM
Anyone think Kendall looks a little better now? For Cotts, Jackson and Borchard?

SOXSINCE'70
07-29-2004, 07:24 AM
This shouldn't be a problem.After all,didn't I hear Chairman Reinsdork say "Money has never been an issue" Tuesday night?????:rolling: :rolling:

idseer
07-29-2004, 07:30 AM
[/list]Agreed. But who is this Valentine? Isn't that Joe Valentine one of our old pitching prospects who we traded away? He is now on the Reds. Who do we trade for him and why is a pitcher in our starting lineup? :tongue:
personally i'd rather see someone make the easy error of misspelling jose's name than see the redundant "who is valentine?" posts that are sure to follow.
the first 3 or 4 times is understandable. the last 683 times is kinda boring, don't you think?

if you REALLY don't know who the poster means that doesn't say much for you, does it?

Fungo
07-29-2004, 08:02 AM
Anyone think Kendall looks a little better now? For Cotts, Jackson and Borchard?Here's mine...

Crede, Borchard, Cotts & Davis for Kendall, Benson & Mackowiak. Throw in another pitching prospect if need be, but that should be enough for taking Kendall off their hands.

CPditka
07-29-2004, 10:07 AM
Ive posted this before, but we can get kendall and benson for virutally nothing, all we need to do is pick up kenall albatross of a salary. To sweeten the deal I would definetly swap crede for mackowiak.

I would trade any of these:
Cotts
Jackson
Kelly W.
Gload
Crede (only if we get Black Rob back)
Timo
Ben Davis
Burke
Borchard (hesistantly)
most any other farm prospect w/in reason

mdep524
07-29-2004, 10:27 AM
For those who say that having a catcher who can hit is a luxury on a team that has other holes, I agree.

The biggest hole on this team right now is a leadoff hitter. The one thing the Sox lack most is OBP. Uribe and Harris are not producing like they did in April and May.

It just so happens that Kendall can hit .300+ and lead off! It's a bonus that he can catch!

Would I prefer, say, Carl Crawford or Juan Pierre? Sure! But the Rays or Fish would demand Mark Buehrle in return. Yes, Kendall's contract is steep. But Pittsburgh previously has expressed willingness to offer some cash to get a deal done!

Kendall seems to be available for peanuts, or just two left nuts from Randar and me. There will not be a bidding war for Kendall.

Kendall makes the Sox much stronger this year and for the future, providing a leadoff or #2 hitter who also plays a key defensive position that happens to be a gaping black hole in the Sox organization. If he starts to decline as a catcher in 2006 or 2007, he always could play a few games in left field or as a DH after 2005.

If acquiring Kendall makes re-signing Maggs impossible, so be it.

Kendall + Everett + Garcia > Maggs + Olivo + Reed.

But if the Sox make the playoffs and go deep, there will be more payroll dollars available (greater revenues this year plus 2005 advance season ticket sales), so it might actually be possible to re-sign Maggs after all even with Kendall and Everett, or make a run at another starting pitcher through free agency.
Frater, once again I couldn't have put it better myself! Totally agreed.

If the Sox got Kendall and Catalanatto, could you imagine a line up of

Kendall C
Catalanatto RF
Lee LF
Everett DH
Konerko 1B
Valentin SS
Rowand CF
Crede 3B
Uribe/Harris 2B.

Wow! :D:

idseer
07-29-2004, 10:38 AM
But Pittsburgh previously has expressed willingness to offer some cash to get a deal done!

Kendall seems to be available for peanuts ... There will not be a bidding war for Kendall.while i agree on how great it would be to get kendall i really wonder about this idea that pittsburg will practically give him away.
isn't catcher one of the most sought of position players? can i really believe that nobody else seems to want him?
i'm guessing he's not all that easy to acquire. pittsburgh's "willingness to offer some cash to get a deal done" probably has a few strings tied to it.

this 'kendall can be had cheap' info is questionable imo.

Mickster
07-29-2004, 10:43 AM
while i agree on how great it would be to get kendall i really wonder about this idea that pittsburg will practically give him away.
isn't catcher one of the most sought of position players? can i really believe that nobody else seems to want him?
i'm guessing he's not all that easy to acquire. pittsburgh's "willingness to offer some cash to get a deal done" probably has a few strings tied to it.

this 'kendall can be had cheap' info is questionable imo.
Agreed. If anyone thinks that they can throw some A & B level prospects for Kendall and have them eat some salary (like it had been suggested by many) don't you think that someone would have snatched him up already???

In fact, the only reason that Kendall is not a Padre is the amount of $$ that the Pirates would eat.

Paulwny
07-29-2004, 10:49 AM
I think with Kendall's insistance that he'd only "ok" a trade to a west coast team, he'd have to be given a contract extension by any team not on the coast in order for him to "ok" the deal.