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View Full Version : KW's logic


joeynach
07-19-2004, 04:42 PM
We all know KW has been saying he wants to win now, 1917, blah blah. But when you think about is there a more sense of urgency becuase of what we are seeing out of cleveland and detroit. I think we will all agree that these teams are on the rise. Loaded with young talent, 5 tool players, pitching, hitting, speed, the whole package. Where we on the other hand have a lot more veterans with larger contracts and an abesence of young talent (both hitting and pitching). Where we probably see Cleaveland and detroit being 90 game winner in the not so distant future where do we see ourselves. Maybe still there, but maybe KW knows this might be our best chance in a while and is putting all of the chips in 04's basket. I say go for it KW, if history repeats itself it will show that we never have nor ever will have a good enough farm system to create a dynasty of great players on our own, nor the budget to buy them. Is KW even done yet.....?

Tekijawa
07-19-2004, 04:48 PM
I know this should be in deeep pink but, I'm going with Black anyway... I have a funny feeling that this could be the Current Ownerships last hurrah why else would we be depleating the minor league ranks of our "top talent" to go after what I can describe as Marginal talent, not difference makers and cash considerations? Could Jerry be interested in dropping the team into more capable hands?

OurBitchinMinny
07-19-2004, 04:51 PM
The sad thing is that if Jon Rauch is our "top" talent we are in trouble. He flat out sucks. Majewski has been traded by us before. Reed was a solid player, but he was not duplicating last years #'s and now that we got garcia inked to a deal, I think it was a good trade. Our system does not seem to be in great shape. At least at AA or AAA. There are a few in lower ball.

joeynach
07-19-2004, 04:58 PM
The sad thing is that if Jon Rauch is our "top" talent we are in trouble. He flat out sucks. Majewski has been traded by us before. Reed was a solid player, but he was not duplicating last years #'s and now that we got garcia inked to a deal, I think it was a good trade. Our system does not seem to be in great shape. At least at AA or AAA. There are a few in lower ball.
I think the problem lies in the fact that we are always mediocre. Not good enough to hav a firesale, but always underachieving for the past 4 seasons. Cleveland got guys like sabathia, lee, and martinez in those such trades. Getting rid of good vetern, high priced talent for minor league prospects. Well look how good those prospects turned out. We are so conscious of the white flag trade and so critical of mangment anything like that on our part would deimate the fanbase, even if they turned out to be as good as clevelands trades.

OEO Magglio
07-19-2004, 04:59 PM
I know this should be in deeep pink but, I'm going with Black anyway... I have a funny feeling that this could be the Current Ownerships last hurrah why else would we be depleating the minor league ranks of our "top talent" to go after what I can describe as Marginal talent, not difference makers and cash (http://www.adsrve.com/linkredirect.php?h=66,28012355,whitesoxinteractive .com,1) considerations? Could Jerry be interested in dropping the team into more capable hands?What the heck, Freddy Garcia isn't a difference maker, I hope your kidding.

ClaudelSleptHere
07-19-2004, 05:09 PM
I think just the presence of the pitching staff will keep us in the hunt for a few years to come................and we do have some good young talent, so I would not be so quick to dread the future.........

Malgar 12
07-19-2004, 05:11 PM
We all know KW has been saying he wants to win now, 1917, blah blah. But when you think about is there a more sense of urgency becuase of what we are seeing out of cleveland and detroit. I think we will all agree that these teams are on the rise. Loaded with young talent, 5 tool players, pitching, hitting, speed, the whole package. Where we on the other hand have a lot more veterans with larger contracts and an abesence of young talent (both hitting and pitching). Where we probably see Cleaveland and detroit being 90 game winner in the not so distant future where do we see ourselves. Maybe still there, but maybe KW knows this might be our best chance in a while and is putting all of the chips in 04's basket. I say go for it KW, if history repeats itself it will show that we never have nor ever will have a good enough farm system to create a dynasty of great players on our own, nor the budget to buy them. Is KW even done yet.....?
Wait a minute? "loaded with young talent?" cleveland maybe, but Detroit? If memory serves me correctly and I live an hour and half from Comerica, the Tigers were the worst team in American League history last year. So how did they improve to the mediocre team they are today? Free Agent middle aged veterans. Are the Tigers on the rise? Yes. Can one say they're headed towards Central Division prominence? Not yet. The Tigers don't have any young players, that are any better or have a higher ceiling than Joe Crede.

DMarte708
07-19-2004, 05:37 PM
I think the problem lies in the fact that we are always mediocre. Not good enough to hav a firesale, but always underachieving for the past 4 seasons. Cleveland got guys like sabathia, lee, and martinez in those such trades. Getting rid of good vetern, high priced talent for minor league prospects. Well look how good those prospects turned out. We are so conscious of the white flag trade and so critical of mangment anything like that on our part would deimate the fanbase, even if they turned out to be as good as clevelands trades.Interesting point.

Sox organization is in a terrible position. We're too good to garner high draft pics, while too cheap to acquire superb talent. Constantly stuck in the middle, and most of our "core players" were either developed or traded before KW became GM.

What perplexes me is how many years, exactly, is KW going to "go for it?" Hasn't he been "going for it" since 2001? We never seem to be able to get over the hump; even if that hump is the weak Central Division.


Solution: Raise payroll to acquire higher priced talent, or let our minor league system properly develop.

Many of you may call me a :dtroll:, but am I the only one who believes two subpar years could help us in the future. Think about it: Cleveland won a division in 2001 and is in position for another in 2005 (and beyond). Only took four years (possible three if they could go on a run this year.) Would anyone here accept a Seattle-esque collapse if it meant our team was in a position to draft a Mark Prior, or Ben Sheets?

Sooner of later we're going to be rebuilding. Our minor league system is a disgrace. How many pitchers can throw above 90mph? Unless they have great stuff, I'm not looking forward to a 2007 starting rotation comprised of five Felix Diaz's'. Or how about our positional players? Reed/Andersen/Sweeney are solid OF's developed in our system. It appeared they would one day roam USCF together. Nope. Reed's gone. Andersen and Sweeney are safe, for now. Maybe next year when KW feels to need to fill a hole ignored in the offseason he'll trade our other stud prospects.

Nearly all of our "core players" are nearing the end of their contracts. That means either we renew them (at significant raises) or search for lightning in a bottle; aka cheap players who were once good, or feature a talent which KW feels can be harnessed. Uribe/Loaiza have set a dangerous precedent for Williams when he looks at the market. I can already sense KW's speech during Soxfest next year:

:KW

KW answering questions at Soxfest

"Yes, Carl Pavano may have been a FA, and yes, we may have had to the money to sign him, but he was looking for three year contract. Only reason Garcia was signed for that amount of time was to prove to all the skeptics that we had the better end of the deal. My ego desperately needed refueling after trading Koch to the Marlins. I still believe we had the better of that trade.....

Controls himself

Now, lets all put our hands togther for our newly acquired starting pitcher.....Shawn Chacon! Coop is teaching him the cutter, so he'll be fine. He's the pitching equivelent of a grinder"

Palehose13
07-19-2004, 05:39 PM
I say go for it KW, if history repeats itself it will show that we never have nor ever will have a good enough farm system to create a dynasty of great players on our own, nor the budget to buy them.
That route was tried in the late 80's/early 90's. Jack McDowell, Alex Fernandez, Robin Ventura, Frank Thomas (weren't they all #1 picks?) were supposed to be the core of the Sox dynasty, which was supposed to start in 1991. Methinks we had a pretty good farm system then, but sheet happens. So yea, go for the jugular now Kdub!

soxtalker
07-19-2004, 05:47 PM
Here's a question for those who keep an eye on the minor league system. Have there been any changes in either key personnel or the way in which minor league talent is evaluated or developed? In other words, has KW changed the system?

owensmouth
07-19-2004, 05:48 PM
Interesting point.

Sox organization is in a terrible position. We're too good to garner high draft pics, while too cheap to acquire superb talent. .

.


Solution: Raise payroll to acquire higher priced talent, or let our minor league system properly develop.

Many of you may call me a :dtroll:, but am I the only one who believes two subpar years could help us in the future

Sooner of later we're going to be rebuilding. Our minor league system is a disgrace..
Think of Atlanta. They went threw their hard times and developed some talent. They were only dead last for, oh, about ten years. They same was true for Cleveland, they were terrible for about thirty years and then dominated for five. Kansas City too, of course they lost the A's to Oakland, but then got the Royals.

owensmouth
07-19-2004, 05:50 PM
Could Jerry be interested in dropping the team into more capable hands?
You don't "drop a team into more capable hands", you sell it to the highest bidder.

soxtalker
07-19-2004, 05:56 PM
I know this should be in deeep pink but, I'm going with Black anyway... I have a funny feeling that this could be the Current Ownerships last hurrah why else would we be depleating the minor league ranks of our "top talent" to go after what I can describe as Marginal talent, not difference makers and cash considerations? Could Jerry be interested in dropping the team into more capable hands?
Jerry might be interested in selling. But he also has the radio contract coming up for renewal in one year, and the current contract has cost the station money.

infohawk
07-19-2004, 07:03 PM
I take the trades at face value. They are primarily about making the team better to make a playoff push this year because this team can only play for this year. KW will worry about next year during the offseason. If the addition of a player has the secondary impact of helping the team beyond this year, then the Sox are all the better for making such an acquisition. Both the Garcia and Everett trades fit this category. With Garcia in the fold, KW has one less solid starter to seek on the free agent or trade market during the offseason. He also got a pretty good deal with the contract. Everett provides some reasonably-priced insurance for next season in the event Maggs does not re-sign with the Sox. Everett was a positive addition last year and stands a good chance to be an assett to this team over the short-term.

I don't think that KW is conceding anything to the Indians, Tigers, et al over the next few seasons. What minor league player traded away by the Sox has gone on to be an impact player? The jury is still out on Jeremy Reed. I strongly suspect, however, that Ozzie would ideally like to field a team less reliant on sluggers and more adept at pitching, speed and defense. The key to such a re-tooling is financial flexibility. To remain competitive, teams need to avoid lengthy, expensive contracts. For this reason, I don't believe the Sox would take on a contract like Jason Kendall's unless the Pirates payed a significant portion. The Sox may be in a position to retool on the fly during the offseason because, as of right now, they are not saddled with any bad contracts. Players become more tradable to other teams if they are either cheap and/or signed for a short-period of time. Konerko is a perfect example. If the Sox were to decide to trade him during the offseason, teams like the Dodgers would find an $8 million one-year contract more attractive than say, $12 million a year over two years. Look for the Sox to go after pitching and speed in an effort to field a team more condusive to fundamental baseball.

Flight #24
07-19-2004, 09:56 PM
Nearly all of our "core players" are nearing the end of their contracts. That means either we renew them (at significant raises) or search for lightning in a bottle; aka cheap players who were once good, or feature a talent which KW feels can be harnessed. Uribe/Loaiza have set a dangerous precedent for Williams when he looks at the market. I can already sense KW's speech during Soxfest next year:


All the more reason to go for it now,and sacrifice some potential talent that could become contributors in 3 years to make a run now, thereby increasing attendance & payroll. Do that 2 years in a row and I think you'll have 2 things. One is obviously more $$$ to resign those "core players" when they hit FA (or before). Two is that I think the goodwill from a management & ownership team that demonstrates that they can and will go for it will get more slack from the fans in a down year when it happens (so payroll won't have to be dramatically cut). Combine the 2 and a good run over the next 1-2 years can really position the Sox to take advantage of the baseball economic climate and use it to rebuild/maintain.

SoxxoS
07-19-2004, 09:59 PM
KW wants to win every year, I don't think rebuilding is in his vocabulary.

Don't worry until there is something to worry about. Wake me next year in August when Cleveland is 15 games ahead. Then we can talk about it.

doublem23
07-20-2004, 12:36 AM
Man, all this talk reall starting to get old. I remember last year when Williams dealt such irreplaceable talent like Webster, Ring, and Rupe how every armchair GM in the world went nuts because of the gambling of the future and bla bla bla. I remember how bleak we all felt 2004 was looking and that if we didn't win it all in '03 that would be our last chance in years.

We're in first ****ing place. Try to enjoy it. God knows we don't get to experience this feeling often enough.

gosox41
07-20-2004, 08:12 AM
We all know KW has been saying he wants to win now, 1917, blah blah. But when you think about is there a more sense of urgency becuase of what we are seeing out of cleveland and detroit. I think we will all agree that these teams are on the rise. Loaded with young talent, 5 tool players, pitching, hitting, speed, the whole package. Where we on the other hand have a lot more veterans with larger contracts and an abesence of young talent (both hitting and pitching). Where we probably see Cleaveland and detroit being 90 game winner in the not so distant future where do we see ourselves. Maybe still there, but maybe KW knows this might be our best chance in a while and is putting all of the chips in 04's basket. I say go for it KW, if history repeats itself it will show that we never have nor ever will have a good enough farm system to create a dynasty of great players on our own, nor the budget to buy them. Is KW even done yet.....?
I agree with your logic. KW Is trying to go for it which is good to see, but he has given up a lot of talent.

Cleveland, KC, and Det. can't suck for ever. Cleveland has a very good GM. They only need a couple of arms in the bullpen and they'd be fighting us for first place. Detroit has Dombrowski, a GM I'd take any day of the week, especially over KW.

KC has suffered some injury problems this season to their pitching. While last year they played over their heads, they made a great trade when they dumped Beltran and maybe looking to do more. They may not be a legit contender in the next couple of years, but they will be a better team then this year.


On the flip side, may be the Sox have figured out that winning=attendance. Attendance is up this year so far. If the Sox can make a run deep in the playoffs that means more money from the post season as well as money going to increased tix. sales for next year. For those who believe that spending=winning (even though the Sox have outspend the rest of the AL Central since 2001) then if this scenario happens you can expect payroll to rise even more.


Bob