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View Full Version : Dumb Sox fans now realize Thomas' importance


WhiteSoxFan84
07-18-2004, 09:55 PM
I just wanted to take a thread and point out to those idiot Sox fans who hate (or hated) Frank Thomas and couldn't believe the Sox brought him back this year, or even last year. Now do you see why he is such an important factor to us winning? Thomas is top 3 in OBP, OPS, SLG, BBs, and so many other categories. He was going to hit 40 HRs and drive in 100 RBIs.

It's going to take Carl Everett and another above average hitter to replace him in our lineup. Do you think we would've needed Everett if Thomas was in the lineup? Of course not, we just would've needed a better catcher.

I love the Big Hurt, and he is a definite Hall of Famer. Yes he's made a few dumb comments and a few more dumb PR moves, but believe me, all he wants to do is win.

Now all of you haters can suck on it, I think we were just 2 games under .500 w/o Magglio, whom I love as well. But Thomas, believe it or not, is more important to the Sox lineup than Magglio is. This can be argued on all month long, but it's true. Paul Konerko, Carlos Lee, Joe Crede, and Jose Valentin can replace Magglio's production if he is out of the lineup. Who can replace Thomas' 3-4, 2B, HR, 3 RBIs on his solid days? Or his 0-2, 2 BBs on his worst days? No one.

compy75
07-18-2004, 09:57 PM
Touche, could not have said it better myself. :smile:

TornLabrum
07-18-2004, 09:59 PM
I think our performance in June and July is a pretty good indicator on how valuable Maggs is to this club, too. Yet there are those who would love to see him go because "he's not worth it."

CubKilla
07-18-2004, 10:03 PM
I just wanted to take a thread and point out to those idiot Sox fans who hate (or hated) Frank Thomas and couldn't believe the Sox brought him back this year, or even last year.
Since when does being critical of Thomas mean that those who are critical of the man "hate" what he does/doesn't do or say/doesn't say..... especially when the critique comes from a Sox fan that has been around before Frank Thomas and will likely be around after Frank Thomas? Since when is Frank Thomas beyond being critiqued? And why?

CubKilla
07-18-2004, 10:04 PM
I think our performance in June and July is a pretty good indicator on how valuable Maggs is to this club, too. Yet there are those who would love to see him go because "he's not worth it."
Touche :D:

SoxFan76
07-18-2004, 10:05 PM
I've noticed that EVERY Cub fan seems to think Thomas is a jerk. They have Samuel Sosa on their team, yet they are very confident in the fact that they think Frank is a jerk. I've never heard a real argument besides "he's greedy and a jerk"

I've heard some talk that Frank likes to pad his stats. Well I don't have a problem with that, especially during the 90s, because he padded his average, walks, runs scored, home runs, on base percentage, and RBI numbers. In the end, he turned out to be the best hitter in White Sox history. Maybe more people should have that philosophy.

Point is, the Frank hating has spread like wild fire, and it even rubs off on a few Sox fans. I just don't get it.

compy75
07-18-2004, 10:05 PM
I think our performance in June and July is a pretty good indicator on how valuable Maggs is to this club, too. Yet there are those who would love to see him go because "he's not worth it."
You sarcastically put up he's not worth it. Well he IS NOT WORTH. This has been discussed so many that we can't afford to way overpay for him without crippling our chances. Yes, Maggs is good and important but I am curious to see our record in June before Frank injured his heel in Game 3 of the FLA Series.

I show us 9-7 in that time span. Further, one has to recall that 2 of those losses are from Koch blown saves against Oakland and Seattle. So with a healthy Frank we easily could have been 11-5....not bad....considering it was our west coast swing.

doublem23
07-18-2004, 10:07 PM
I think our performance in June and July is a pretty good indicator on how valuable Maggs is to this club, too. Yet there are those who would love to see him go because "he's not worth it."
I don't think anyone's wanted to see Maggs go, but no one on this team is an irreplaceable superstar and Magglio can be replaced easily for a much cheaper cost than $15 million/year. From a baseball side, I'd love to watch Maggs grow old in our pinstripes, but from the economic side of the game, he's not worth the money he has reportedly been demanding.

TornLabrum
07-18-2004, 10:08 PM
It's called "the Big Lie." You tell it often enough and people start to believe it. You know how it works: The Cell is a horrible ball park, it's in a dangerous neighborhood, Sox fans are all drooling morons who beat up coaches and umpires every chance they get, Frank Thomas is a selfish player and a jerk.

Why do we know this is true? Because the Cubs loving media tell us it is, and they've told us over and over and over. And people believe it.

CubKilla
07-18-2004, 10:08 PM
Yes, Maggs is good and important but I am curious to see our record in June before Frank injured his heel in Game 3 of the FLA Series.

I show us 9-7 in that time span. Further, one has to recall that 2 of those losses are from Koch blown saves against Oakland and Seattle. So with a healthy Frank we easily could have been 11-5....not bad....considering it was our west coast swing.
Losses are losses. No special consideration for teams that had the misfortune of having Billy Botch on their team.

TornLabrum
07-18-2004, 10:10 PM
You sarcastically put up he's not worth it. Well he IS NOT WORTH. This has been discussed so many that we can't afford to way overpay for him without crippling our chances. Yes, Maggs is good and important but I am curious to see our record in June before Frank injured his heel in Game 3 of the FLA Series.

I show us 9-7 in that time span. Further, one has to recall that 2 of those losses are from Koch blown saves against Oakland and Seattle. So with a healthy Frank we easily could have been 11-5....not bad....considering it was our west coast swing.
And why can't we afford to pay him? Because we're saddled with an owner who saddles his GM with a payroll that is 2/3 of that of the other team in town while he makes enough money to have to pay a luxury tax to the league.

TornLabrum
07-18-2004, 10:11 PM
I don't think anyone's wanted to see Maggs go, but no one on this team is an irreplaceable superstar and Magglio can be replaced easily for a much cheaper cost than $15 million/year. From a baseball side, I'd love to watch Maggs grow old in our pinstripes, but from the economic side of the game, he's not worth the money he has reportedly been demanding.
Who do we replace Maggs with so easily with comparable stats? Name players who will be available this off-season or someone in our farm system.

Daver
07-18-2004, 10:14 PM
And why can't we afford to pay him? Because we're saddled with an owner who saddles his GM with a payroll that is 2/3 of that of the other team in town while he makes enough money to have to pay a luxury tax to the league.
There is a difference between paying a player his worth as opposed to paying what a player thinks he is worth, Magglio was offered a contract similar to what Vlad Guerrero makes, and it was turned down. Magglio is not close to the ballplayer Vlad is.

TornLabrum
07-18-2004, 10:16 PM
There is a difference between paying a player his worth as opposed to paying what a player thinks he is worth, Magglio was offered a contract similar to what Vlad Guerrero makes, and it was turned down. Magglio is not close to the ballplayer Vlad is.
The stories I've heard were that a lot of the money was deferred. I want the money now if I'm a player. Why should I want Uncle Jer to make the interest on the deal?

Daver
07-18-2004, 10:19 PM
The stories I've heard were that a lot of the money was deferred. I want the money now if I'm a player. Why should I want Uncle Jer to make the interest on the deal?
He is refusing being overpaid for what he brings because of a defferred portion of the contract?

OurBitchinMinny
07-18-2004, 10:21 PM
I just wanted to take a thread and point out to those idiot Sox fans who hate (or hated) Frank Thomas and couldn't believe the Sox brought him back this year, or even last year. Now do you see why he is such an important factor to us winning? Thomas is top 3 in OBP, OPS, SLG, BBs, and so many other categories. He was going to hit 40 HRs and drive in 100 RBIs.

It's going to take Carl Everett and another above average hitter to replace him in our lineup. Do you think we would've needed Everett if Thomas was in the lineup? Of course not, we just would've needed a better catcher.

I love the Big Hurt, and he is a definite Hall of Famer. Yes he's made a few dumb comments and a few more dumb PR moves, but believe me, all he wants to do is win.

Now all of you haters can suck on it, I think we were just 2 games under .500 w/o Magglio, whom I love as well. But Thomas, believe it or not, is more important to the Sox lineup than Magglio is. This can be argued on all month long, but it's true. Paul Konerko, Carlos Lee, Joe Crede, and Jose Valentin can replace Magglio's production if he is out of the lineup. Who can replace Thomas' 3-4, 2B, HR, 3 RBIs on his solid days? Or his 0-2, 2 BBs on his worst days? No one.

If you think thomas is more important to the white sox than ordonez at this point in their careers you are an idiot. Thomas is a surefire HOFer and will be sorely missed. But he is not the same player. I grew up with frank thomas as my favorite player, so I dont hate the guy. I want him to finish his career with the white sox and finish it healthy. I hope he gets back this year, but Im not holding my breath

doublem23
07-18-2004, 10:22 PM
He is refusing being overpaid for what he brings because of a defferred portion of the contract?
Well put. :)

StrTrkker
07-18-2004, 10:24 PM
It's called "the Big Lie." You tell it often enough and people start to believe it. You know how it works: The Cell is a horrible ball park, it's in a dangerous neighborhood, Sox fans are all drooling morons who beat up coaches and umpires every chance they get, Frank Thomas is a selfish player and a jerk.

Why do we know this is true? Because the Cubs loving media tell us it is, and they've told us over and over and over. And people believe it.The perfect lyrics that fit for these Cub loving media people are from (of all people)...The Go Go's in their 80's hit...Our Lips Are Sealed.

Can you hear them
They talk about us
Telling lies
Well that's no surprise

Can you see them
See right through them
They have no shield
No secrets to reveal

It doesn't matter what they say
In the jealous games people play...ay ay ay
Our lips are sealed

compy75
07-18-2004, 10:27 PM
Who do we replace Maggs with so easily with comparable stats? Name players who will be available this off-season or someone in our farm system.
Few 2004 FAs of note who the Sox might want to look into if Maggs goes:

Beltran (obviously)
Hidalgo
Moises Alou
J.D. Drew
Danny Bautista
David Delucci
Jermaine Dye
Trot Nixon
Geoff Jenkins

Those minus Beltran, will all cost substantially less than Maggs and might be able to give us alot better production for the money. It's not as if the cubbard is dry. Additionally, Glaus is a Free Agent which intrigues me a bit.

TornLabrum
07-18-2004, 11:06 PM
Few 2004 FAs of note who the Sox might want to look into if Maggs goes:

Beltran (obviously)
Hidalgo
Moises Alou
J.D. Drew
Danny Bautista
David Delucci
Jermaine Dye
Trot Nixon
Geoff Jenkins

Those minus Beltran, will all cost substantially less than Maggs and might be able to give us alot better production for the money. It's not as if the cubbard is dry. Additionally, Glaus is a Free Agent which intrigues me a bit.
The only person of that group that I'd even bother with is Beltran. None of the others are anywhere near Maggs.

WhiteSoxFan84
07-18-2004, 11:07 PM
Since when does being critical of Thomas mean that those who are critical of the man "hate" what he does/doesn't do or say/doesn't say..... especially when the critique comes from a Sox fan that has been around before Frank Thomas and will likely be around after Frank Thomas? Since when is Frank Thomas beyond being critiqued? And why?
One of my best friends, huge Sox fan, hates Thomas, calls him worthless and a nagging little girl all the time. I've heard a few other Sox fans say he's a has-been, worthless, and should've been let go a longtime ago. I'm sure there are more of these kinds of thinkers out there. I just today noticed how Thomas going down has had such a big impact on Sox Nation, almost everyone is ready to panic if we don't replace his bat.

WhiteSoxFan84
07-18-2004, 11:11 PM
If you think thomas is more important to the white sox than ordonez at this point in their careers you are an idiot. Thomas is a surefire HOFer and will be sorely missed. But he is not the same player. I grew up with frank thomas as my favorite player, so I dont hate the guy. I want him to finish his career with the white sox and finish it healthy. I hope he gets back this year, but Im not holding my breath

Magglio is a great player, but if you asked me whom would I rather have out for the year, it would be very hard and I might regard it, but I think I would be more confident with Thomas in the lineup the whole year. I've heard so many pitchers say that Thomas changes the complexion of a lineup when he is it. Dusty Baker said it during the Wrigley crosstown series, Thomas brings intimidation to the plate everytime he comes up. If I pitched to Magglio, I wouldn't be intimidated at all. Look at him, he doesn't look scary. Yes he's a great hitter, but if you build confidence inside that you can get the guy out, you will be superb mentally and thus will make superb pitchs to get him out. Now if Thomas was batting, I mean look at the guy, he looks like a raging bull ready to explode. He is a player you have to make PERFECT pitchs to, or he will make you pay. He doesn't swing at sliders that look like a strike until the last tenth of a second when they sneak outside the zone. His patience makes him the best OBP guy in baseball, next to Barry Bonds. Put Thomas on 'roids, he will be right up there with Bonds.

WhiteSoxFan84
07-18-2004, 11:22 PM
I think our performance in June and July is a pretty good indicator on how valuable Maggs is to this club, too. Yet there are those who would love to see him go because "he's not worth it."
He's worth every bit of every cent he gets from whomever he plays for next year. But that depends on how much he is offered and who offers him that much. If the Sox offer him $14 mill per, yes he is worth it, because he is making it this year. If the Yankees offer him $16 mill per, than he's worth it because $16 mill from the Yankees equals about $12 mill from the Sox (Yankees have been known to overpay just to assure the services of players; Jose Contreras, Raul Mondesi, etc.). If he wants $15 mill per from the Sox, he is not worth it (if he asks for more he is just insane). Look at the northside of town, Sammy Sosa makes close $17 mill per, almost every Cub fan wants his ass shipped, not because he sucks, but because his salary is higher than that of Barry Zito, Mark Mulder, and Tim Hudson's combined salaries! (Do you believe that Mark Prior already makes more than Barry Zito?) If the Sox commit that much money to one player, he better have led the team to the playoffs or proved himself as a recipe for success (ala Derek Jeter and Mariano Rivera). Magglio is a studd, I love the guy, but he does nothing for the Sox off the field, and I hate to say it, that helps a lot (again, look at Sosa, endorsements left and right make him a huge household name). I don't know how he is inside the clubhouse, but I can tell you he is no leader at all.

Another factor is a study that was recently done on teams who have one player that makes 20% of the teams payroll. The study stated something to the effect that teams with such a characteristic, are almost guranteed to fail. Look at the Texas Rangers last year and look at them this year. What's missing? Alex Rodriguez's $25 mill per (amazing the Sox almost had him and actually offered him $18 mill per).

As someone else stated, there are a few other players that can replace Maggz next year, my favorite is J.D. Drew. A lot of teams won't go after him because of his injured history, which will make him cheaper. I think our trainers would take care of him and keep him healthy, as the Braves training staff has done this year. I would love to land Carlos Beltran, but he will be more expensive than Maggz and his agent is the devil himself, Scott Boras (I heard he hates JR).

Daver
07-18-2004, 11:25 PM
The only person of that group that I'd even bother with is Beltran. None of the others are anywhere near Maggs.

So you would rather overpay Magglio?

LauraJ14
07-18-2004, 11:32 PM
So you would rather overpay Magglio?
Well its not like we can afford to overpay someone else's free agent so YES I would overpay Maggs. The Sox wouldn't pay Jack McDowell but they found money to throw away on Jamie Navarro and Albert Belle.

Palehose13
07-18-2004, 11:33 PM
The only person of that group that I'd even bother with is Beltran. None of the others are anywhere near Maggs.I'd bother with Dye:

Stats:G AB 2B 3B HR RBI AVG OBP SLG OPS
JDye: 88 344 18 4 17 57 .288 .346 .512 .857
Mags:48 191 8 2 09 37 .293 .346 .497 .844

Daver
07-18-2004, 11:36 PM
Well its not like we can afford to overpay someone else's free agent so YES I would overpay Maggs. The Sox wouldn't pay Jack McDowell but they found money to throw away on Jamie Navarro and Albert Belle.
Albert Belle still holds a couple Sox records, how did they throw away money on him?

compy75
07-19-2004, 12:03 AM
Nixon intrigues me. Last year he was 5th in the league in OPS, and his career OPS is only 30 points less than Maggs with a higher OBP by a point. Plus he wouldn't cost more than 8 mil a year. So the question is whether 30 slugging pts is worth 7 million more a year. Mind you they are the same age.

Similarly, Hidalgo's and Jenkins' career OPS is less than 30 less than Maggs and he is expected to be looking for 6 million next year. (Per Sportsradio WFAN) What's amusing is that all 4 players are 30 years old. Yet you guys disregard them like they are scrubs. It's about spending money wisely. To put how CLOSE these guys are to Maggs in prospective, Frank hit 41 points higher in SLG% ALONE then Maggs did.

Reality is that Maggs is a big part of this team but in my opinion not as wonderful as we like to portray. Additionally, the lack of marketing power of him brought up earlier should also be a key sticking point.

jabrch
07-19-2004, 12:05 AM
The only person of that group that I'd even bother with is Beltran. None of the others are anywhere near Maggs.You'd rather have Magglio for 15 than, for example, Hidalgo for 8 and Loaiza for 7?

How bout Dye and Clement?

Rentiria? Whatever else...

doublem23
07-19-2004, 12:07 AM
Can we not talk about giving $7 million to Loaiza? If we're just going to waste it, may as well split it between Maggs and Frank to keep them both nice and happy.

TornLabrum
07-19-2004, 12:07 AM
So you would rather overpay Magglio?
It is your opinion that he would be overpaid, not mine.

TornLabrum
07-19-2004, 12:08 AM
Albert Belle still holds a couple Sox records, how did they throw away money on him?
You bet they did. He had a great half season for the Sox, once they were well out of contention.

jabrch
07-19-2004, 12:09 AM
Can we not talk about giving $7 million to Loaiza? If we're just going to waste it, may as well split it between Maggs and Frank to keep them both nice and happy.
DoubleM - I am just throwing out examples. I don't want to shell that kind of cash out to Esteban either. But my point was that we can get an all-star calibre OF and a #2/#3 SP for the price Magglio is demanding.

TornLabrum
07-19-2004, 12:09 AM
Can we not talk about giving $7 million to Loaiza? If we're just going to waste it, may as well split it between Maggs and Frank to keep them both nice and happy.
Now there's a man after my own heart. Loaiza has shown this year that $7 million would be grossly over what he is worth.

compy75
07-19-2004, 12:12 AM
DoubleM - I am just throwing out examples. I don't want to shell that kind of cash out to Esteban either. But my point was that we can get an all-star calibre OF and a #2/#3 SP for the price Magglio is demanding.
I guess this is exactly what I am getting at. Those players listed can and have outproduced Maggs before in one given season over the past 3 years, this season not included. So as a team on a budget (right, wrong, or indifferent), it just seems economical to go that route.

jabrch
07-19-2004, 12:12 AM
Now there's a man after my own heart. Loaiza has shown this year that $7 million would be grossly over what he is worth.
again - my point - Magglio @ 15 or X at 8 and Y @ 7. Until we have a 100mm payroll, don't we end up better spreading that cash around to get another top line starter and a lower calibre OF than Magglio?

Daver
07-19-2004, 12:13 AM
It is your opinion that he would be overpaid, not mine.
OK.

Vlad got 14 mil for I beleive six years, and is five years younger than Magglio.

You think Magglio at thirty is worth that kind of money on the FA market when he is not close to being the all around ballplayer Vlad is?

jabrch
07-19-2004, 12:15 AM
OK.

Vlad got 14 mil for I beleive six years, and is five years younger than Magglio.

You think Magglio at thirty is worth that kind of money on the FA market when he is not close to being the all around ballplayer Vlad is?
Daver - I couldn't agree more. I like Magglio - a lot. But this just can't be the best use of funds.

Deadguy
07-19-2004, 12:58 AM
Well its not like we can afford to overpay someone else's free agent so YES I would overpay Maggs. The Sox wouldn't pay Jack McDowell but they found money to throw away on Jamie Navarro and Albert Belle.And Jack Mcdowell did what after he left the Sox?

We don't need to be held hostage by a homegrown player's demands. Magglio may be after more than money, such as a desire to play in another market. Loyalty is a two-way street, and if Magglio leaves, so be it. He can be replaced by some other hired gun.

Nellie_Fox
07-19-2004, 02:36 AM
Well its not like we can afford to overpay someone else's free agent so YES I would overpay Maggs. The Sox wouldn't pay Jack McDowell but they found money to throw away on Jamie Navarro and Albert Belle.Bad example. Jack McDowell is just one of many pitchers the Sox wouldn't give big-money, multi-year contracts to who went on to prove the Sox right. He had one more halfway decent year the the Yankees, and was pretty much done after that, with ERA's in the fives for the rest of his career.

Dan H
07-19-2004, 09:48 AM
No one can argue with Thomas as an offensive threat. But he can't play the field which hurts with inter-league and would hurt in the World Series.(If they ever ge there.)

The other drawback to Thomas is his injury problems. He missed the last month of 1999, almost all of 2001, and now two months in 2004. I also remember him being out in several weeks in 1993. Durability is not a strength of his, and injuries do tend to happen to guys his size. He helps this offense, but he has to be there.

Blob
07-19-2004, 09:51 AM
Can we not talk about giving $7 million to Loaiza? If we're just going to waste it, may as well split it between Maggs and Frank to keep them both nice and happy.
I agree. And I think Loaiza made a big mistake, in the Sox' favor, by not signing at the beggining of the year. He is in for rude awakening after this season is over.

hawkjt
07-19-2004, 10:13 AM
Torn Labrum: You do understand that the luxury tax is a tax on teams that exceed a certain dollar amount on payroll? Hence only a handful of teams over 100 million payroll are subject to the tax. If you are saying the sox get money from the tax on the yankees that is probably true. I have run the numbers and the total revenue for the sox is around 90 million. The cubs are around 200 million and the yankees are at 300+ million . The sox have a 65 mil payroll so that leaves 25 million to run the organization,pay bonus' to draft picks, pay rent on stadium, scouts, and cost of goods they sell ie beer ect. I dont think they make much money if any. The cubs have 80 million extra after the additional payroll they pay. The Yankees have about the same even with a 190 mill payroll. That extra 80 million is pure profit the cubs and yanks have that the sox do not. This sport needs revenue sharing in the worst way.

idseer
07-19-2004, 10:19 AM
Torn Labrum: You do understand that the luxury tax is a tax on teams that exceed a certain dollar amount on payroll? Hence only a handful of teams over 100 million payroll are subject to the tax. If you are saying the sox get money from the tax on the yankees that is probably true. I have run the numbers and the total revenue for the sox is around 90 million. The cubs are around 200 million and the yankees are at 300+ million . The sox have a 65 mil payroll so that leaves 25 million to run the organization,pay bonus' to draft picks, pay rent on stadium, scouts, and cost of goods they sell ie beer ect. I dont think they make much money if any. The cubs have 80 million extra after the additional payroll they pay. The Yankees have about the same even with a 190 mill payroll. That extra 80 million is pure profit the cubs and yanks have that the sox do not. This sport needs revenue sharing in the worst way.
did you throw in the millions us cellular is paying jr plus all the peripheral income?

hawkjt
07-19-2004, 10:45 AM
The US Cellualar mony is required by US Cell to be spent in up-grading the park. None of this mony goes to the sox. And yes I included parking concessions,local and national TV and radio and tickets. The only number that I do not have a handle on is the outside merchandise licensing dollars. That could be significant but I know the players get a good chunk of it. The yanks and cubs have larger sales in that area also. I am not saying that JR loses a ton of money but the net income of this team is minimul.

idseer
07-19-2004, 10:48 AM
i really don't like the title of this thread.

MisterB
07-19-2004, 10:58 AM
Torn Labrum: You do understand that the luxury tax is a tax on teams that exceed a certain dollar amount on payroll? Hence only a handful of teams over 100 million payroll are subject to the tax. If you are saying the sox get money from the tax on the yankees that is probably true. I have run the numbers and the total revenue for the sox is around 90 million. The cubs are around 200 million and the yankees are at 300+ million . The sox have a 65 mil payroll so that leaves 25 million to run the organization,pay bonus' to draft picks, pay rent on stadium, scouts, and cost of goods they sell ie beer ect. I dont think they make much money if any. The cubs have 80 million extra after the additional payroll they pay. The Yankees have about the same even with a 190 mill payroll. That extra 80 million is pure profit the cubs and yanks have that the sox do not. This sport needs revenue sharing in the worst way.I believe TL misspoke. The Sox have never paid Luxury Tax (i.e. the salary 'soft cap'), but they have been on the giving end of revenue sharing (based on overall revenue). Although according to the 2001 'official' numbers, the Sox were at the bottom of the dozen or so teams on the giving side, so really they weren't that far from being on the recieving end.

Hangar18
07-19-2004, 11:00 AM
I've noticed that EVERY Cub fan seems to think Thomas is a jerk. They have Samuel Sosa on their team, yet they are very confident in the fact that they think Frank is a jerk. I've never heard a real argument besides "he's greedy and a jerk"

I've heard some talk that Frank likes to pad his stats. Well I don't have a problem with that, especially during the 90s, because he padded his average, walks, runs scored, home runs, on base percentage, and RBI numbers. In the end, he turned out to be the best hitter in White Sox history. Maybe more people should have that philosophy.

Point is, the Frank hating has spread like wild fire, and it even rubs off on a few Sox fans. I just don't get it.
Take note that EVERYTHING you wrote is the Propoganda Ive read put out by the Chicago Media the last 10 yrs.......namely guys like Mariotti etc. Of course, now everyone except SOX fans believe this junk. Same propoganda that says "wrigley is magical" "wrigley is beautiful" "what great fans" "theres never any violence over here" "cub fans are smart".

daveeym
07-19-2004, 11:17 AM
Take note that EVERYTHING you wrote is the Propoganda Ive read put out by the Chicago Media the last 10 yrs.......namely guys like Mariotti etc. Of course, now everyone except SOX fans believe this junk. Same propoganda that says "wrigley is magical" "wrigley is beautiful" "what great fans" "theres never any violence over here" "cub fans are smart". I agree in the 90's it was the most ridiculous thing ever said about the guy. Last year though the, "Me Big Frank, Me hit home runs" was ridiculous.

Dadawg_77
07-19-2004, 11:47 AM
He is refusing being overpaid for what he brings because of a defferred portion of the contract?
Even the total dollar amounts are the same with deferred money a contract can be worth a lot less esp when no interest is being paid on the deferred money. Unless we know the exact terms, you can evaluate how much a contract is worth in present dollar terms.

Deadguy
07-19-2004, 11:50 AM
No one can argue with Thomas as an offensive threat. But he can't play the field which hurts with inter-league and would hurt in the World Series.(If they ever ge there.)

The other drawback to Thomas is his injury problems. He missed the last month of 1999, almost all of 2001, and now two months in 2004. I also remember him being out in several weeks in 1993. Durability is not a strength of his, and injuries do tend to happen to guys his size. He helps this offense, but he has to be there.
Being on the DL 5 times in 15 years hardly makes him injury prone.

The last two trips to the DL were not the result of a lack of conditioning or off season training on Thomas' part. They were the result of bad luck.

Dadawg_77
07-19-2004, 11:54 AM
Torn Labrum: You do understand that the luxury tax is a tax on teams that exceed a certain dollar amount on payroll? Hence only a handful of teams over 100 million payroll are subject to the tax. If you are saying the sox get money from the tax on the yankees that is probably true. I have run the numbers and the total revenue for the sox is around 90 million. The cubs are around 200 million and the yankees are at 300+ million . The sox have a 65 mil payroll so that leaves 25 million to run the organization,pay bonus' to draft picks, pay rent on stadium, scouts, and cost of goods they sell ie beer ect. I dont think they make much money if any. The cubs have 80 million extra after the additional payroll they pay. The Yankees have about the same even with a 190 mill payroll. That extra 80 million is pure profit the cubs and yanks have that the sox do not. This sport needs revenue sharing in the worst way.Forbes as White Sox Rev at 92 million. http://www.forbes.com/baseball/ in 2000 and 106 million in 2002. http://www.forbes.com/free_forbes/2003/0428/mlb_18.html and 124 last year.

SOXSINCE'70
07-19-2004, 11:58 AM
Just Thomas' bat alone makes a pitcher think.He's not afraid to take a walk.Never has been.He's not "The Big Hurt" like he was in '92,'93 or even '97,the year he won a batting title.But his presence is sorely missed.

As for criticism,just because I think he can be a big crybaby at times (what athlete isn't?) doesn't mean I don't appreciate the effort he gives on the field.I don't hate him either.:mad: :mad:

Deadguy
07-19-2004, 12:09 PM
I agree in the 90's it was the most ridiculous thing ever said about the guy. Last year though the, "Me Big Frank, Me hit home runs" was ridiculous.You do realize the Sox were 27-11 when Thomas homered last year, don't you?
That means the Sox were 6 games under .500 when Thomas didn't hit a homerun. I fail to see how Thomas hitting homeruns hurt the Sox last season.

Perhaps if Konerko had pulled his head out of his *** for more than 2 or 3 weeks at a time last season, OBP from Frank would have been more essential. His reasoning for changing his approach was that his walks were not resulting in runs scored.

hawkjt
07-19-2004, 12:25 PM
DAWAG77 : I stand corrected. Are these forbes numbers audited? I did note that net operating income was 1.2 million. I think that supports the fact that JR will spend what they take in but refuses to go deep into the red. I can hardly blame him for that altho I do hope he would throw caution to the winds if we are real close in late Aug. I think he would do that.

maurice
07-19-2004, 12:48 PM
If KW is going to drop $14 million per on an OF this offseason, I'd rather it be Beltran than Maggs. I like Maggs, but Beltran is a better all-around player.

As it stands, it looks like we might have Everett next season instead of Maggs or Beltran.

Palehose13
07-19-2004, 01:01 PM
Being on the DL 5 times in 15 years hardly makes him injury prone.

The last two trips to the DL were not the result of a lack of conditioning or off season training on Thomas' part. They were the result of bad luck.You beat me to it. :D:

It is ridiculous to even suggest that he isn't durable. How often are other power hitters on the DL thorughout their career? I bet if it was researched Sosa, Griffey jr., McGuire (sp?), and others have been on the DL more in their career than Frank.

Heck, Valentin has probably been on the DL more times in his 3.5 seasons with the Sox than Frank has in his 14+ years here.

Dadawg_77
07-19-2004, 01:51 PM
DAWAG77 : I stand corrected. Are these forbes numbers audited? I did note that net operating income was 1.2 million. I think that supports the fact that JR will spend what they take in but refuses to go deep into the red. I can hardly blame him for that altho I do hope he would throw caution to the winds if we are real close in late Aug. I think he would do that.

There are no publicaly audit figures for MLB teams out there, that I know of. MLB always disputes Forbes' figures but I have more confindence in Forbes' numbers.

Dan H
07-19-2004, 02:20 PM
Being on the DL 5 times in 15 years hardly makes him injury prone.

The last two trips to the DL were not the result of a lack of conditioning or off season training on Thomas' part. They were the result of bad luck.
5 times is not a lot except that he is gone for long. It is the seriousness of the injuries not the the number, especially since the 1999. I didn't say anything about his work habits, just the injuries.

California Sox
07-19-2004, 02:37 PM
As it stands, it looks like we might have Everett next season instead of Maggs or Beltran.
I think we may not have Carl Everett next year. He's due a $5 mil salary with a $500,000 buyout. I bet they buy out his contract.

Mickster
07-19-2004, 02:51 PM
I think we may not have Carl Everett next year. He's due a $5 mil salary with a $500,000 buyout. I bet they buy out his contract.
Actually, Carl has a player option for $4M for 2005 and the Sox have a team option for $5M in 2006 with a $500K buyout.